How to shoot a board?

[Brian Sommers]

How do you shoot the end of a board?

all the videos make everything look so easy. I can't get anywhere

[Normand Leblanc]

Could you be more explicit?
- type of plane used
- type of wood
- What is the problem?

I like to use a WoodRiver no.4 plane for small pieces and a LeeValley LA jack for ticker/harder material.

Normand

[Brian Sommers]

I'm using an old #4 Stanley I think.
I would love to be able to get a good plane.

Could that make a difference?

hard maple. It just skips or gets stuck

[Curt Putnam]

IMO, you can square a board freehand by sticking in a vise vertically. This is NOT the preferred method! Have you built a shooting board? Have you verified that it is square or actually matches whatever angle you are trying to cut? Once we know that you have an accurate shooting board then we can discuss plane issues, if any. Again, IMO from a relative newb.

[David Eisenhauer]

Given that you have a shooting board (big given), the key to shooting end grain is a sharp-sharp, very sharp blade and tiny bites. If you are getting stuck, it sounds like too thick a cut is being tried. Extend the blade of the plane such that it will only take a very thin cut (3?4?5? thousands, but just guessing) when planning on face grain. Place your plane positioned sideways against the long fence of your shooting board and run your end grain board placed against the cross fence of the shooting board out to just touch the sole (bottom) of the shooting plane (specifically not against the extended blade of the plane). Then reposition the plane back to the starting point and push through the stroke. You will have to continuously re position the end grain board against the plane's sole as you plane the end grain down to the desired surface. The guys on the videos look like they are just thrashing away, but they are readjusting the end of the board as they plane away. Slow down and check as you go. It may help to wear a rubbery type glove on your gripping hand to prevent the end grain board from moving. A sharp #4 will work, some folks prefer a larger/heavier plane to get the mass moving, but it is not a requirement.

[Normand Leblanc]

Brian,
If it skips it's because it's not sharp. Then you probably adjust for a deeper cut and the plane get stuck. Am I right?

The other possibility is that your plane is not tuned up. By this I mean that the blade might not be seating properly on the frog or the frog is not seated correctly in the sole. With an old Stanley I would bet it's the latter.

You are working with hard maple. You should try with something softer don't you think?

For sure, a premium plane comes well tuned-up and it does make a difference but in all cases (new or old planes) you need to know if your sharpening is adequate. A good test is to plane soft pine end grain and check if you're getting a very nice surface.

[Patrick Chase]

How do you shoot the end of a board?

all the videos make everything look so easy. I can't get anywhere

It depends on the size of the board, but you may need shotgun slugs (preferably 10-gauge, 12 will do in a pinch) to make much of an impression. High-powered rifle bullets are no good as they just sail right through.

You should make absolutely sure to polish your casings with JNats first, though.

[Prashun Patel]

Due respect, Brian, show us your set up. I doubt you need us to start from scratch with you. Need more specifics to be specifically helpful.

[Warren Mickley]

I have shot end grain in a vise for over fifty years. I like to score the board deeply all the way around with a knife and make a small chamfer with a chisel at the far end. Then plane to the line.

If you are having trouble planing end grain with a #4 plane, it could be taking too heavy a cut, or it could be poor sharpening. Like not sharpening enough to get rid of the rounded wear on the edge, or sharpening at too steep an angle. If the iron is not too sharp you may not be able to take a light enough cut.

There is one advantage to getting an expensive plane; the owner tends to look for problems with his technique rather than blaming the plane.

If the board is very thin, like less than 1/4 inch, or very narrow, like less than two inches wide, a shooting board may be helpful. Otherwise shooting in a vise is a lot less clumsy.

[Josh Nelson]

Sharpness is a huge factor as well as set up in general (board and plane). In my experience a skip is either too much cut or not enough sharp.

[Brian Sommers]

In have a shooting board and its square. I'll check it again to make sure. I want to make another one that is sloped.

I did have my plane set up by a local Amish woodworker in town. Maybe it could use some sharpening but I think I'm taking to large of a bite, but when I pull it back I don't seem to get much at all.

i know I can't blame my tools, but I would love to try it with a veritable LA jack plane then if it doesn't work I know it's me! LOL

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

In my opinion, BD planes need to be monitored for sharpness more than BU planes. The latter have the advantage of a lower cut angle (generally 37 degrees) compared the the BD, which commonly has a standard angle plane (such as the Stanley #4). All this does is place even more emphasis on using a sharp blade, and that a Stanley #4 needs to be kept ultra sharp all the time. You are going to struggle if the blade is not ultra sharp.

While I own and use some fancy shooting boards, these are used for thin boards only, as Warren noted above. Otherwise I simply clamp the in a vise, knife the marks, and plane to these. Still, a low cutting angle works best on end grain regardless of whether a shooting board is used or not.

One of the features that you need to check on your #4 is the flatness of the sole. A sole that is low around the mouth area will not take a fine shaving, which is one of the symptoms you reported. The blade needs to be extended a little further, and then it is difficult to control - blades flex more under these circumstances. A similar situation occurs when the toe and the heel are lower (and the mouth area is higher). The plane then will rock on the high area, and the blade will rock up and down as well. To check the flatness of the sole, without special equipment such as feeler gauges, glue a sheet of fine (600 grit) wet-and-dry sandpaper to a piece of flat glass, and just gently push the plane across it. The high spots will show up as shiny.

Once the plane and blade are considered good, the rest is technique. The main factors here are:

1. finely set blade.
2. start the cut at the edge of the board and push forward firmly and smoothly - NO run up and bashing the end.
3. Push the plane into the side of the runway while simultaneously pushing it into the runway - hands around the mouth area.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

Few things to consider:

1. You may find much of your issues come from the condition of your plane. As Derek mentioned, plus also whether the sides are square to the sole. If they are not you can adjust the blade to cut square. Check sole flatness by rubbing on sandpaper mounted to a dead flat surface like a table saw. Make marks with a Sharpie to guide you. Be sure the blade is tensioned and retracted.

2. As mentioned, sharp blade - let me be clear - razor sharp (as in will shave hair!).
3.. Iron set for very thin shavings.
4. Adequate side/down pressure against the guide fence when planing.
5. Be sure the blade projection is even. I test this with a thin board take a shaving on each side of blade and adjust accordingly.

Let me also suggest although you can shoot with a #4 you will find a heavier plane will work better.
You will also find a plane with the thinner irons will not perform as well for this task.

Personally, I use either a low angle jack with a hotdog handle or a #6.
Note: I actually prefer the #6 on thicker wood because the mass of the plane helps.

[James Pallas]

Brian one thing that may help is to remember that your board is a precision instrument. If the iron is sharp and the board is working you may have to look to see if you are getting a shaving. The shaving may be very small, one tiny corner. You won't even fell the plane cut. The temptation is to deepen the cut. As you take more cuts it will become apparent that the plane is cutting.
Jim

[Mike Berti]

I am working with a similar board now. The maple is relatively very hard. I would try first with softer woods like pine or poplar. If that works fine, do as others suggested and reduce the shave to minimum possible.

[Brian Sommers]

problem solved: forget the shooting board.

I clamped up in a vise and left my #4 on the bench and grabbed my block plane (I think, its a very tiny one) and took it down to the line.

[Jim Koepke]

problem solved: forget the shooting board.

I clamped up in a vise and left my #4 on the bench and grabbed my block plane (I think, its a very tiny one) and took it down to the line.

In my opinion the problem isn't really solved. You have merely found a different way to square the end of a board. If you ever need to do this with a piece that is longer than a few feet you will be back to square one.

The advantage of a shooting board is the speed in which the work can be done. It also enables one to make miters and other angles with ease.

Almost any plane can be used on a shooting board. I have used a #60 type block plane on thin stock.

Because of an old shoulder injury my preferred plane for use on a shooting board is a low angle jack plane, LN #62 to be precise.

Here is my latest shooting board build:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777-Oh-Shoot!

It shows using wedges to shoot angles.

My technique is to first sharpen the blade and adjust the plane to cut as lightly as it can one some edge grain. A chamfer is cut on the edge of the work that will be against the fence to help reduce any blow out. Then the plane is set on the ramp and held it in place where it will meet the work. Then the piece being shot is brought up against the toe of the plane, blade out of engagement, and held against the fence. Then move the plane forward. There may be very little removed on the first few strokes. As the plane is being brought back the work is again moved against the toe of the plane and this is repeated. It may also be necessary to advance the blade a little. I can usually tell if the full length is being addressed by the sound of the blade cutting wood over the full width of the work.

Hope this helps,

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

problem solved: forget the shooting board.

I clamped up in a vise and left my #4 on the bench and grabbed my block plane (I think, its a very tiny one) and took it down to the line.

I would resolve the setup of your #4, then. You've confirmed that something is wrong with the plane as it is set up now.

Check for sharpness.

Check the chip-breaker (is it too close to the edge, perhaps? You can keep it very close, but leave at least a millimeter or two. Sometimes it can cause the plane not to cut well if it's right up on the edge).

Sharpness could be your problem. You need to sharpen much more often than you might think.

How about the iron itself? Is it all locked in there good? If something is wrong and the iron is able to move/isn't secure, it can refuse to cut or dig in.

Sole flatness may also be an issue, but I'd be kind of surprised if it were that out. I would check it with a straight edge, and if it looks reasonably flat, don't mess with it. You might do more harm than good if you don't have a good lapping surface, and it's usually not necessary unless it's visibly out when you check.

Your symptoms are consistent with a plane that just hasn't been setup right in one way or another. I remember having similar problems when I first picked up a block plane. Do some research and see if you can't figure out for yourself what is wrong; you'll need to learn to tune and setup your tools regardless of what you buy.

[Patrick Chase]

problem solved: forget the shooting board.

I clamped up in a vise and left my #4 on the bench and grabbed my block plane (I think, its a very tiny one) and took it down to the line.

I do this all the time, albeit with an edge-trimming plane instead of a block plane, so that I don't have to worry about tilt.

As other have said, this suggests that your #4 isn't set up very well. The block plane probably has a lower cutting angle (assuming it has a low-angle bed and ~25 deg edge) but even so that shouldn't make the degree of difference you described here.

[Tom M King]

Brian, If you have the time to wait, send me the iron and chipbreaker. I'll sharpen it, and send it right back to you. That way, you can experience first hand what really sharp is, and how much difference it makes. I have a very efficient sharpening setup, so it won't be taking but a few minutes of my time, if you're worried about that.

If you're interested, PM me, and I'll give you my mailing address.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Because bevel down planes don't have the optimal angle for end grain, are they more likely to go dull or chip when doing so (than BU planes)? My experience says yes but it might just be that I'm sharpening at to shallow a bevel angle.

[Jim Koepke]

Because bevel down planes don't have the optimal angle for end grain, are they more likely to go dull or chip when doing so (than BU planes)? My experience says yes but it might just be that I'm sharpening at to shallow a bevel angle.

More likely to chip than when doing edge grain or more likely to chip than bevel up?

If you are using BD at a 25º grind it is not likely going to chip any more than a BU plane ground at 25º.

The difference in angle of attack between BU and BD is only 8º unless one uses a skewed blade.

It also depends on the composition of the blade. My BU A1 blade tends to chip more than my old Stanley blades or Hock O1 blade.

Also this would likely depend on the woods one is working.

As with so many things:

341066

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Because bevel down planes don't have the optimal angle for end grain, are they more likely to go dull or chip when doing so (than BU planes)? My experience says yes but it might just be that I'm sharpening at to shallow a bevel angle.


More likely to chip than when doing edge grain or more likely to chip than bevel up?

If you are using BD at a 25º grind it is not likely going to chip any more than a BU plane ground at 25º.

All things equal, a BD plane on a common angle bed (45 degrees) will create more stress on the bevel edge than a BU plane on a low angle bed (12 degrees). This stress creates more wear. Ergo, BU plane blades outlast BD plane blades. I did mention this in an earlier post.

Research: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Trevor Goodwin]

Thanks Derek!

I've always had trouble end grain planing Tassie Oak with my shooting board and bench planes. Pine is fine though so I figure sharpness isn't the problem.

[Luke Dupont]

Thanks Derek!

I've always had trouble end grain planing Tassie Oak with my shooting board and bench planes. Pine is fine though so I figure sharpness isn't the problem.

I also have trouble shooting end grain at times, but besides keeping your iron really sharp, I've found two things help significantly, if you haven't tried them already:
1. Oil or wax the sole of your plane. This always makes things easier, of course, but you'd be surprised how much it helps on end-grain in particular.
2. Use a clamp or holdfast to fix your shooting board securely to your bench top. I find eliminating any small movement helps quite a bit.

[Jim Koepke]

I also have trouble shooting end grain at times, but besides keeping your iron really sharp, I've found two things help significantly, if you haven't tried them already:
1. Oil or wax the sole of your plane. This always makes things easier, of course, but you'd be surprised how much it helps on end-grain in particular.
2. Use a clamp or holdfast to fix your shooting board securely to your bench top. I find eliminating any small movement helps quite a bit.

Darn Luke, those are so engrained in my shooting that it's as if they don't happen. But of course they do.

It is one of the reasons my inexpensive vises with a tendency to rack will likely be used as the basis for my next bench. (if I ever get a round tuit!)

My shooting board is usually just set in the tail vise and the plane is rubbed with wax while it is being carried to the bench. Sometimes it is set in the face vise. Then it is sometimes held by the tail vise with two dogs on the bench and two in the vise chop.

When the obvious is an old habit, it may need pointing out to become clear.

Good one Luke.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

When I see the title to this string, I keep wanting to say "with a 22", but I know it would not be appreciated.:)

[Patrick Chase]

When I see the title to this string, I keep wanting to say "with a 22", but I know it would not be appreciated.:)

I already tried that (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?245653-How-to-shoot-a-board&p=2585641#post2585641).

Based on my dim memories as a Boy Scout in Indiana, a .22 isn't very good for chopping up boards. They don't have enough energy to do significant damage. Higher-power small caliber rounds like the .223 are even worse because they fly right through. Ditto for true high-power rounds like the .300 Win Mag. You really want something blunt, massive and relatively slow. In other words, a shotgun slug.