Nightmare

[dirk martin]

I order the G0453W planer from Grizzly, back in May, along with the T27625 Shelix cutterhead. The Shelix head cost of $595.00
The planer arrived quickly, with the straight knives, and we were told the Shelix head was on back order until early June.
We ran a couple of boards thru it, to make sure all was well, and it ran perfectly.

We're planing lots of figured wood, and can't do anything with the straight knives. We need that Shelix cutterhead.
Mid June, I called, and asked for an update, and they said "End of June"
Now, here I am, past the middle of July, and still no cutterhead.

I called them today, and they gave me an estimate of "end of Aug"....and she emphasized "estimate".
I told her this has become rediculous, and I've been more than patient....but now that this planer is no use to us, I need to return it, and get something from Minimax or Laguna. She put me on hold....

She came back on the line, and said they do have another cutterhead that will work for us, but it's $895. I told her that I wasn't going to pay more for the head that I've waited so long for. She put me on hold again. When she came back, she told me that this $895 head was a straight knife head. I told her the planer already came with one of those, so that wouldn't do me any good, anyway.

She asked if I used the planer, and I told her I ran 2 or 3 boards thru it, to make sure it was in good operational order, and I told her it ran perfectly.
She then informed me that since it is now used, I will need to send her several pictures, confirming its condition, and that there will be a 10% restocking fee. In addition, I would need to pay the return shipping.

Needless to say, I was furious, but remained calm, and I simply asked her if she understood the "position I've been put in"? She said she did, but that her hands were tied.

Are there any other Creekers out there, that have any suggestions for me?

[Tim Boger]

I'd start working my way up the chain of command until someone fixed the problem .... someone will, the struggle to get to that entity will be the battle.

[dirk martin]

At this point, I'm willing to take a Grizzly spiral head, rather than the Shelix head....but for some reason the Griz spiral head is MORE expensive than the Shelix....even tho the Shelix has a better geometry to the knives.

If they'd just offer me the spiral head, at no increase in cost, we'd be done with this mess.....for some reason Grizzly wants $729-$815 more for their spiral head, against the $595 Shelix !

[Mike Heidrick]

Call Brian Gumper at holbren.com and see of he can get a Byrd head on order faster. Get the woodnet discount too if you can (not sure you can on a byrd). That is 10% right there. 800-838-8547

That or just order the T27451 $815 one that is in stock.

Or order a second planer and float till the restock comes back.

$120 restock is a drop in the bucket if you are loosing money but are you on the hook to send it back too?? That freight will cost you a bit maybe.

Id really try and take lighter cuts and run the wood askew while being patient and working with Brian on getting a byrd ordered or made for you.

[dirk martin]

C

Or order a second planer and float till the restock comes back.

$120 restock is a drop in the bucket if you are loosing money but are you on the hook to send it back too?? That freight will cost you a bit maybe.

Yeah, they want me to pay return shipping, too.
I'll call Brian, in the morning.

[John Conklin]

I'm betting that the problem lies with Byrd. I ordered one a couple years ago for my Delta jointer and it ended up taking about 4 months... and I ordered from Holbren. I tried to be patient, but toward the end was getting really tired of waiting. I tried emailing Byrd directly a couple times and never even got a response. The best that I got from Hobren (I believe it was Brian) was that they and Byrd was out of that model and Byrd wasn't going to make more "for awhile".

About 6 months ago I ordered a Byrd head for my Powermatic planer from Grizzly. At first I was told that it was out of stock and I wouldn't get it for about month. 10 days later it showed up at my door.

Realize none of this helps you, but just wanted to let you know that you're not alone.

[Robin Frierson]

Seems like a simple fix...send you a Grizz spiral at the same price of the Byrd. They cant just leave customers hanging like that. I had recent problem with a Grizz jointer and all ended well. They took it back and I ordered a different model and they even gave me free shipping. So maybe asking to speak to a supervisor might help.

[Brian Gumpper]

The problem definitely lies with Byrd, big problem with deliveries right now. Your frustration would have been exaggerated though when you got the head in and it didn't fit. I don't know if Grizzly is selling the new heads yet but all the machines ending in "W" using a different head than the other planers and jointers they appear to be exact copies of. Can't explain why just what Byrd says.

[Brian Gumpper]

My mistake, looks like Grizzly is selling the "W" version of the head now. I was told 8 weeks on the about three weeks ago.

[Allan Speers]

The problem definitely lies with Byrd, big problem with deliveries right now. Your frustration would have been exaggerated though when you got the head in and it didn't fit. I don't know if Grizzly is selling the new heads yet but all the machines ending in "W" using a different head than the other planers and jointers they appear to be exact copies of. Can't explain why just what Byrd says.


The problem definitely lies with Grizzly. They should never have sent the planer in the first place, with the wrong configuration, unless the buyer OK'ed that first.

I'm really surprised they didn't bend over backwards to rectify this.

[Keith Outten]

When you placed the order were you told that both items were not in stock?

If so you probably should have known that shipments from most factories have been taking a very long time for the last few years. The days of retail establishments stocking huge inventories are long gone, since the economic bashing we took in 2008. Your problem isn't with Grizzly its with failure of the banking industry. Most of the companies who sell both large and some small scale products are trying their best to support a reasonable delivery system, not much they can do about their suppliers production line problems since they can no long afford to stock large inventories in their warehouses anymore.

Clearly every retail sales organization would like nothing better than to deliver their products to their customers the next day so they can get paid. Long delivery dates have become the norm in many industries now, its a monster of a job to produce a major catalog many months in advance and be able to predict the ability of hundreds of suppliers to deliver anything on time. You will find hundreds and hundreds of posts here since 2008 about people waiting for delivery of machines for what used to be considered an unreasonable amount of time. Delivery dates promised by manufacturers slip almost every week, this is the new norm...the customer must learn to be patient and plan ahead.
.

[Aaron Conway]

I'd start working my way up the chain of command until someone fixed the problem .... someone will, the struggle to get to that entity will be the battle.


Tim's right...start escalating up the chain

[john lawson]

When you placed the order were you told that both items were not in stock?

If so you probably should have known that shipments from most factories have been taking a very long time for the last few years. The days of retail establishments stocking huge inventories are long gone, since the economic bashing we took in 2008. Your problem isn't with Grizzly its with failure of the banking industry. Most of the companies who sell both large and some small scale products are trying their best to support a reasonable delivery system, not much they can do about their suppliers production line problems since they can no long afford to stock large inventories in their warehouses anymore.

Clearly every retail sales organization would like nothing better than to deliver their products to their customers the next day so they can get paid. Long delivery dates have become the norm in many industries now, its a monster of a job to produce a major catalog many months in advance and be able to predict the ability of hundreds of suppliers to deliver anything on time. You will find hundreds and hundreds of posts here since 2008 about people waiting for delivery of machines for what used to be considered an unreasonable amount of time. Delivery dates promised by manufacturers slip almost every week, this is the new norm...the customer must learn to be patient and plan ahead.
.

"Your problem isn't with Grizzly, it's with the banking industry", are you kidding me?

He did not order the planer nor the new head from "the banking industry", he ordered it from Grizzly. The OP stated it was on back order until June. So yeah, the problem is with Grizzly.

I know Grizzly is an advertiser, but Jeez, give me a break!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Did you pay for planer on CC. Dispute the charges.

[Shiraz Balolia]

The problem lies with Byrd and their slow deliveries.

We have been placing orders with them many months in advance and are basically at the mercy of their delivery schedules. It is better to purchase a machine that is pre-fitted with the spiral cutter head than to try to fit an aftermarket cutter head. Frankly, we get stuff faster from overseas with several months lead time than we do from Byrd. They have been averaging between 6 to 7 months for deliveries and our orders are tens of thousands of dollars!

We are calling them today to get a more definite delivery date for that cutter head and will be letting the OP know.

[Brian Gumpper]

I guess I could have been more clear but Shiraz explained the problem. If Grizzly tells you they will have stock in say June that is because Byrd told them that. When Junes comes and goes and no heads it's not the retailers fault but they do take the blame because they have the order.

This is a big issue for me at the moment and I know it has damaged my reputation. I have DW735 heads on order since late March that have not shipped and no indication of when they will.

[John TenEyck]

Seems like everyone is blaming everyone else but no one has a clue how to resolve the underlying problem. If Grizzly knows Byrd is slow on delivery they really only have two choices, stock an adequate inventory (which no one wants to do these days and probably isn't possible with Byrd's current issues, whatever they are) or cut bait and find another supplier. In my mind it makes no sense to continue to offer a product option you can't source in a timely manner. A customer shouldn't have to wait months to get the machine he wants. Even worse is having to install something that should come on the machine to begin with. If you don't have the machine the customer wants you should just tell him so, apologize, and offer an alternative if you have one. If you don't, you shouldn't be selling him something that doesn't meet his expectations. That almost always goes south.

You can only expect customers to be tolerant to a point. Eventually, they go away - and they tell their friends.

Maybe Grizzly should buy Byrd.

John

[Keith Outten]

John,

In the past companies kept large inventories of merchandise so they were able to ship products as orders came in and they always knew what they had in inventory and when it was time to restock. This changed in 2008 when the banks caused the economic bust. For a long time afterward we had long waiting lists for even inexpensive items like engravers plastic.

Grizzly had three huge warehouses full of machines and there was a run on their inventory which was great until the shelves were empty and they got caught up in the delivery slowdown of products from overseas manufacturers. You do know that Grizzly recently had to close their facility in Pennsylvania, I'm sure they didn't like the idea but it was necessary.

Things have changed! Manufacturers don't know what to produce without orders which used to happen well in advance because companies were restocking inventory. Today everyone is short ordering because they cannot afford to maintain large inventories anymore. Manufacturers can't schedule large product runs overnight hence the insane delivery problems with the system being choked at a variety of places along its path. Now you order what you want and wait for it to be manufactured which is why the long waiting periods are common and its extremely difficult to predict a delivery date.

Complain all you want but the problem is not with the retailers. Threatening to take your business elsewhere is not a reasonable reaction to this problem as most importers are caught up in the same issues with overseas manufacturers. Note that many decades ago blue collar workers could not afford any of the larger woodworking or metalworking machines like Delta or Powermatic. They were way over the average persons budgets so only a business could afford a machine other than Sears Craftsman. When Grizzly opened their doors they brought a much higher level of machines to the market that working people could afford. I wanted a new planer for many years but couldn't afford any of the big name products and there wasn't an alternative until Grizzly came along. I purchased my 500 pound Grizzly planer from one of the first catalogs they printed, way before the Internet started.
.

[john lawson]

Seems like everyone is blaming everyone else but no one has a clue how to resolve the underlying problem. If Grizzly knows Byrd is slow on delivery they really only have two choices, stock an adequate inventory (which no one wants to do these days and probably isn't possible with Byrd's current issues, whatever they are) or cut bait and find another supplier. In my mind it makes no sense to continue to offer a product option you can't source in a timely manner. A customer shouldn't have to wait months to get the machine he wants. Even worse is having to install something that should come on the machine to begin with. If you don't have the machine the customer wants you should just tell him so, apologize, and offer an alternative if you have one. If you don't, you shouldn't be selling him something that doesn't meet his expectations. That almost always goes south.

You can only expect customers to be tolerant to a point. Eventually, they go away - and they tell their friends.

Maybe Grizzly should buy Byrd.

John

This is the right answer. Every business has problems but if you know you have the problem and do nothing about it you deserve for your reputation to suffer.

[Ben Rivel]

Why was the title of this thread changed to not include the Grizzly brand name?

[Mike Manning]

A very good question...I wonder if you'll get an official answer.

[Ben Rivel]

A very good question...I wonder if you'll get an official answer.
Probably not, just really want to know if it was the OP or the mods. And if it was the mods that makes me wonder if SawMillCreek is in bed with Grizzly somehow.

[Martin Wasner]

It stinks you have to wait. I'm not sure how big Byrd is, what their financial position is, or what their goals are. I'm guessing that they are gambling on that they aren't going to be as busy as they are, so growth through more space, more equipment, and more bodies isn't worth it. Or, the owner(s) have been at it for thirty plus years and just not interested.

There's a million possibilities, but either way your stuck waiting. That sucks, but it's reality.

I'm waiting for a new widget to show up. It sat waiting for pickup for a week, went from Oregon to Kansas City, to Minneapolis, to somewhere in Wisconsin, and it's supposed to be here tomorrow. I'm doubtful.

I had to wait almost six months for my new widebelt. I think they strapped it to the slowest turtle they could find, then whatever union controls the docks screwed it up even further.

Really Keith? You're laying blame on the banks? Really?

[Greg R Bradley]

Blaming things like this on the "banks" isn't far off as that is just one of the causes of poor economy, tiny margins, unreasonable expectations of investors, etc.
We want stuff for nothing and the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, shipping, etc. just keep climbing. Backorder is becoming too common on all goods like that. If it is made up of other items, then any one item can cause the finished product to be late.

I can't imagine Grizzly would charge for the item until it is shipped.

IF having the head was critical to the function of the machine, then it sounds like that should have been considered before the order. If it was then there are lots of ways that can go sideways if you rely on a backorder being shipped on time. Easy to make assumptions on both sides.

It makes some sense that Grizzly was removed from the title with everyone assuming they bear all the blame and have poor customer service.

[Mike Manning]

...It makes some sense that Grizzly was removed from the title with everyone assuming they bear all the blame and have poor customer service.

Well, they certainly aren't demonstrating what I would term GOOD customer service in this instance. I see nothing wrong with leaving Grizzly's name in the title.

[Susumu Mori]

When I was told to wait for 6 months by Hammer/Felder, my jaw dropped but the waiting was not as agonizing as I thought. If I were treated like Dirk, that 6 months would have been pure frustration, no matte who's wrong.

[john lawson]

Well, they certainly aren't demonstrating what I would term GOOD customer service in this instance. I see nothing wrong with leaving Grizzly's name in the title.

Maybe we can find out which bank Grizzly uses and put their name on the title of the thread, make sense to anyone?:):)

[Wade Lippman]

It makes some sense that Grizzly was removed from the title with everyone assuming they bear all the blame and have poor customer service.

I own several Grizzlys and have always been satisfied with their service and their product, but in this instance they do bear all the blame.

They gave delivery information, apparently knowing the supplier was unreliable. They shouldn't have done that. It left the OP holding the bag, when he did nothing at all wrong. Proper customer service would have been accepting the return for full credit, or shipping the alternate head at the original price.

Even if you say it was mostly Byrd's fault, the OP was not Byrd's customer. (Byrd will probably blame it on their carbide supplier, who will blame it on global warming. None of that matters; it is properly Grizzly's problem)

[Keith Outten]

I removed Grizzly's name from the thread title because its unfair to blame or to publicly tarnish the name of a company for problems beyond their control. That's my interpretation of the issue.

As to whether SawMill Creek is "In Bed with Grizzly" they are a very loyal advertiser here that provide a significant portion of the funds it takes to allow those who do not contribute financially to participate for free. Secondly it is not the mission of this Community to publicly bash companies, particularly when most problems should be handled between the two parties offline. Using SawMill Creek as a weapon or to gain leverage against any company is way below the standards of this Community.

----------------------------------------------------------------------From our Read Me First Announcement
Before You Rant Read This December 20th, 2010

"It is the intent of SMC to permit the airing of concerns regarding the suitability of a particular product, or the quality or sufficiency of customer service provided by a vendor in any particular instance provided there is not a breach of contract component involved.

However, these threads often deteriorate into a "piling on" and develop a very negative tone. That doesn't assist other viewers in assessing the overall advisability of whether to buy this particular product, nor to assess the overall customer service provided by that manufacturer/vendor.

In order to be fair to the many vendors that provide woodworking products, the following policies will be in force:
The original poster must have first contacted the manufacturer/vendor and have attempted a solution PRIOR to posting the thread.
The original poster should provide factual details of the problem, and details of efforts that have been made with the manufacturer/vendor to rectify the problem.
Subsequent posts must be limited to suggestions to the original poster to assist in rectifying the problem - not to pile on because you had similar problems.

SMC is a woodworking forum. The intended purpose is to provide a community in which useful information may be shared among the members. Threads that do not achieve that purpose will be locked, or removed if necessary." SawMill Creek is not a Court of Law and we are not in a position to judge a breach of contract case here, therefore SawMill Creek will not become a stage or a courtroom for a legal dispute between two or more parties, it just isn't our mission.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I protective of our Advertisers, YOU BET I AM. In 2005 the Members of this Community decided that they wanted SawMill Creek to remain a Free Access Community with advertising support. I was against this transition but I supported the will of the majority here. Part of my job since then is to attract new advertisers and retain our existing advertisers and its a tough job to do and not bite the hand that feeds us.
.

[john lawson]

I removed Grizzly's name from the thread title because its unfair to blame or to publicly tarnish the name of a company for problems beyond their control. That's my interpretation of the issue.

As to whether SawMill Creek is "In Bed with Grizzly" they are a very loyal advertiser here that provide a significant portion of the funds it takes to allow those who do not contribute financially to participate for free. Secondly it is not the mission of this Community to publicly bash companies, particularly when most problems should be handled between the two parties offline. Using SawMill Creek as a weapon or to gain leverage against any company is way below the standards of this Community.

----------------------------------------------------------------------From our Read Me First Announcement
Before You Rant Read This December 20th, 2010

"It is the intent of SMC to permit the airing of concerns regarding the suitability of a particular product, or the quality or sufficiency of customer service provided by a vendor in any particular instance provided there is not a breach of contract component involved.

However, these threads often deteriorate into a "piling on" and develop a very negative tone. That doesn't assist other viewers in assessing the overall advisability of whether to buy this particular product, nor to assess the overall customer service provided by that manufacturer/vendor.

In order to be fair to the many vendors that provide woodworking products, the following policies will be in force:
The original poster must have first contacted the manufacturer/vendor and have attempted a solution PRIOR to posting the thread.
The original poster should provide factual details of the problem, and details of efforts that have been made with the manufacturer/vendor to rectify the problem.
Subsequent posts must be limited to suggestions to the original poster to assist in rectifying the problem - not to pile on because you had similar problems.

SMC is a woodworking forum. The intended purpose is to provide a community in which useful information may be shared among the members. Threads that do not achieve that purpose will be locked, or removed if necessary." SawMill Creek is not a Court of Law and we are not in a position to judge a breach of contract case here, therefore SawMill Creek will not become a stage or a courtroom for a legal dispute between two or more parties, it just isn't our mission.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I protective of our Advertisers, YOU BET I AM. In 2005 the Members of this Community decided that they wanted SawMill Creek to remain a Free Access Community with advertising support. I was against this transition but I supported the will of the majority here. Part of my job since then is to attract new advertisers and retain our existing advertisers and its a tough job to do and not bite the hand that feeds us.
.

Keith, it's your forum so I guess you can do most anything you want, but I do not agree with you -- you should have left Grizzly's name on the title.

If you want this forum to have credibility then it needs to be seen as even handed. When you or the other moderators defend a company like Grizzly over something this obvious you look a little silly. Taking their name off is even worse.

I don't see anyone piling on, we are just calling it like we see it. I will add this, when the moderators get involved and try to defend the indefensible you actually make it worse. You need to rethink this one.

Last, because we are contributors, including the OP, do we get the same consideration you give the advertisers?

[larry senen]

We just had the owner of the company reply. How much further up the chain can you get?
BUT IF IT WHERE MY COMPANY I'd take a spiral head out of an exisiting machine ,if available and ship it to a customer. AND STOP TAKING ANY MORE ORDERS for byrd heads till i had some inventory.

[dirk martin]

Keith, it's your forum so I guess you can do most anything you want, but I do not agree with you -- you should have left Grizzly's name on the title.

If you want this forum to have credibility then it needs to be seen as even handed. When you or the other moderators defend a company like Grizzly over something this obvious you look a little silly. Taking their name off is even worse.

I don't see anyone piling on, we are just calling it like we see it. I will add this, when the moderators get involved and try to defend the indefensible you actually make it worse. You need to rethink this one.

Last, because we are contributors, including the OP, do we get the same consideration you give the advertisers?


I couldn't agree more.
As the OP, I was actually shocked to see that Sawmill Creek would censor my title.
I started the thread, and right or wrong, I thought I was FREE to cast blame wherever I chose. I guess we don't have that freedom up here.
I didn't realize that that's the kind of ship the mods ran.
But, like you said, it's Keith's forum.
It's also my choice whether or not to remain a contributor.

[Jamey Cyphert]

I had a very similar experience and typed it all up but it was removed. Evidently any voiced issues with a sponsor gets censored.

[Keith Outten]

John,

I own the hardware and the software. I am also contractually obligated to our bandwidth provider to pay them a set fee for several years in each contract period.

SawMill Creek is a living breathing Community of people that nobody owns. All of the rules here are based on what the majority of this Community feel are appropriate, not just what I feel is best.

I made a judgement call concerning the removal of Grizzly's name from the title of this thread. My interpretation of the issues in this case is why I made the decision and there are others who agree with me so there are opinions on both sides of the issue. This is not a simple case of defending the indefensible, I made a decision based on a broad knowledge of the situation that some disagree with. The details IMO are not as simple as some suggest. Right or wrong I have a responsibility to protect this Community and our Advertisers that is more important than the rights of any individual.

You didn't see the posts that were attempts to pile on because I have already deleted them.

SawMill Creek exists today because of Contributors who saved The Creek financially when I closed my Internet Business. I made a promise in 2005 that as long as we had support from our Contributors I would keep the lights on here. I give our Contributors as much lead way as possible and I have provided them with significant support, often behind the scenes, assisting them to resolve issues that I can't discuss publicly. This Community has a tremendous amount of clout in the industry. This kind of authority is accompanied by serious responsibility to act reasonably and with respect and I am proud of what this Community has accomplished in over 13 years, and of our reputation as a friendly and respectful group of woodworkers.

[Mike Manning]

This thread has taken a disappointing and disturbing turn. I wish the best for the OP whose reputation and business has and is suffering.

[Keith Outten]

I couldn't agree more.
As the OP, I was actually shocked to see that Sawmill Creek would censor my title.
I started the thread, and right or wrong, I thought I was FREE to cast blame wherever I chose. I guess we don't have that freedom up here.
I didn't realize that that's the kind of ship the mods ran.
But, like you said, it's Keith's forum.
It's also my choice whether or not to remain a contributor.


Dirk,

You really think that you have the right to cast blame wherever you choose whether your right or wrong?

From our Terms of Service that everyone here agreed to when they registered.
I. General Terms It is our policy to support the free flow of information in a manner best befitting the woodworking community at large. Sawmill Creek is an online community where woodworkers may come together to share and discuss a common interest. Sawmill Creek reserves the right to refuse or delete any Content of which it becomes aware and reasonably deems not to fulfill its established purpose. In addition, SawMill Creek shall have the right (but not the obligation) in its sole discretion to edit, refuse or delete any Content that it reasonably considers to violate these Terms without notice. You understand and agree that the service is provided "AS-IS" and that SawMill Creek assumes no responsibility for the timeliness, deletion, mis-delivery or failure to store any user communications.