Japanese Saws

[Mike Holbrook]

I have several Silky folding saws. I bought the original one for pruning. They are amazing in pole saws, of which I have two. I discovered that they made a couple woodworking saws at some point and bought a couple.

The Silky saws use replaceable blades, which seem to last quite a while. I am just wondering what kinds of Japanese saws others use? I believe there are Japanese saws that require sharpening like western saws too. Apparently replaceable blades have been used in Japan for some time as Odate mentions them in his book on Japanese tools, my version was published in 1984 I believe.

I use my Silky Woodboy quite frequently. The blade is very thin and it forces me to use a light touch. Mine is at least 10 years old. I am trying to decide whether to buy a new blade for it or try something different. I like the folding saws as they are very easy to take to classes and the handles protect the blades when they are not being used, but there may be better designs.

[Prashun Patel]

Mike-
I'm beginning my journey with these.

Many people start with a Ryoba. It's economical because it is two sided. There's technique to using them because of the straight handle. and because if you approach the piece as you might with a western saw, it may not cut as ergonomically or efficiently as a different position. Also, the thin blade can make cutting straight an issue (DAMHIKT!!!!!).

The next many would recommend is a Dozuki, which has a stiff back and is typically used for finer, joinery cuts. Because it is stiffened, I find it easier to cut straight. Also, because I don't use it for deep cross cuts, I find it does not wander as much. If someone were moving from Western to Japanese saws, my recommendation (and take this with a grain of salt, because I am a beginner with this) would therefore be to start with a Dozuki. It's easier and less daunting to work with.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike,

For a while I had both western and Japanese saws and somewhat recently I decided to pursue Japanese saws entirely keeping only three western saws (coping saw, bow saw and a Disston big rip saw), all of my joinery saws now are Japanese nokogiri.

What I think you'll find as you pursue Japanese saws is that even inexpensive saws can be very, very good. I have replacable blade saws from Mitsukawa, Gyokucho, Nakaya Eaks and Bessho Jiro which are just wonderful to work with, I also have handmade saws which are also great. The price divide can be substantial but if you chose wisely the quality divide is fairly narrow. My handmade saws are limited to saws that I couldn't acquire otherwise (like the azebiki nokogiri, big anabiki and the flush cut saws) and saws that are relatively easy to file like medium sized rip tooth saws (I touch up my replaceable blade saws as they wear also).

[Patrick Chase]

My handmade saws are limited to saws that I couldn't acquire otherwise (like the azebiki nokogiri, big anabiki and the flush cut saws) and saws that are relatively easy to file like medium sized rip tooth saws (I touch up my replaceable blade saws as they wear also).

This piqued my curiosity - Japanese replaceable blade saws are typically impulse-harnded, some to as high as Rc69 or so. No steel file (not even a super-hard one like Valtitan) should be able to cut those.

Sooo... What on Earth are you using to "touch those up"? Does somebody make feather-edge Tungsten-Carbide or diamond files?

[Brian Holcombe]

Indeed, I use a diamond feather edge file. I haven't tested the limits on how many filings I can get out if them just yet, but so far at least one.

[Jim Koepke]

I still have three Japanese pull saws. I think they all came from Hida Tools in Berkeley, CA.

I like how fast they can cut. As Prashun mentions the thinness of the blade can be a problem.

Another problem for me is work often involves wood with knots. The teeth on the pull saws do not do well against a knot.

Currently my pull saws are mostly used for cutting dowels or when I want a fast cut of some scrap.

My accuracy tends to be better with western saws.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for all the good ideas guys. I probably should have mentioned the Silky saws I have. I have: Silky Woodboy Dozuki, 240mm folding saw, with reinforced back, I also have the regular 240mm Silky Woodboy, which is the Dozuki with a little coarser teeth and no back, talk about your flexible saw blade! These were the original woodworking saws they made. Highland Woodworking has sold Silky saws for many years, even when they just made "pruning" saws. The pruning saws often have curved blades but the teeth are very similar if not the same. I have a Gomboy, 240mm, medium teeth and the big 360mm BigBoy with large teeth. The last two are typically used for pruning.

The regular Woodboy Dozuki has been the one I use the most, mostly because of the faster cutting teeth. Any kind of pressure while sawing and it bends, so over 10+ years the blade may not be dead straight and there are a fair number of bent teeth. I credit that saw with making me learn to saw with light pressure. Every time I pick it up, it teaches me the same lesson again.

[Luke Dupont]

I used to have a real difficult time cutting straight with Japanese saws, but I find that the more I learn to stay relaxed, the more I can get dead-on accurate results.

Actually, the same is true with my bow saw which I made a *very* thin blade for. If you try to force it, it will tend to flex a bit and take you off-line, but if you are careful and light with the touch, it cuts dead straight, and out performs any saw that I've used when it comes to large tenons.

I have a Ryouba that I use for rougher work, an extremely fine little Douzuki that I use for dovetails and any small, detailed projects or fine cuts, and for just about everything else I use my bow-saw. I do like western tenon and rip saws, but I find the plates to be thicker than I'd like on either of the ones that I own.

For ripping stock, I prefer something that cuts on the push stroke due to the orientation of the grain. Ripping is the one thing I have trouble doing with Japanese saws, but that may be as much to do with techniques and work holding as anything.

I'm yet to try a higher quality, non-disposable blade Japanese saw. I'd like to at some point, along with a quality plane, when I can afford the luxury. I've also entertained the idea of using a Japanese file to make my next bow-saw blade with Japanese-style rip teeth.

[Jason Lester]

I just got a Gyokucho 372 razorsaw. My dovetails have since gotten much better. It cuts so fast and such a thin kerf. One thing I learned is to not use hardly any pressure, just let it cut.

[Mike Holbrook]

Luke, if you like Japanese saws and bowsaws you should check out the Turbo Cut blades, available at Wood Joy and Highland Woodworking. There are Turbo Cut: rip, XX and universal tooth designs. They are essentially Japanese saw blades that fit bowsaws. They usually come in a Jigging/turning narrow width and wider blades for XXs & rips.

Interesting that everyone says the same thing about being careful with pressure on Japanese saws.

I was just checking for replacement blades for Silky saws and discovered that they have no set but the blades are apparently tapered. I am wondering if this is normal for Japanese saw blades? I thought tapered blades had just about died out, but maybe not.

[Stanley Covington]

I have several Silky folding saws. I bought the original one for pruning. They are amazing in pole saws, of which I have two. I discovered that they made a couple woodworking saws at some point and bought a couple.

The Silky saws use replaceable blades, which seem to last quite a while. I am just wondering what kinds of Japanese saws others use? I believe there are Japanese saws that require sharpening like western saws too. Apparently replaceable blades have been used in Japan for some time as Odate mentions them in his book on Japanese tools, my version was published in 1984 I believe.

I use my Silky Woodboy quite frequently. The blade is very thin and it forces me to use a light touch. Mine is at least 10 years old. I am trying to decide whether to buy a new blade for it or try something different. I like the folding saws as they are very easy to take to classes and the handles protect the blades when they are not being used, but there may be better designs.

For the last few years they have been selling huge pruning saws at the local home centers, some by Silky, and some by others.

I was shooting the bull with Takijiro last year while visiting his forge to pick up a saw he made for me, and noticed one hanging on his wall. He said it had been sent in for sharpening, and that he does quite a few of them for the boys who do tree and garden work. The teeth are not induction hardened, so his files can do the job. It is more economical to sharpen the blades at ¥2000 than to replace the blade at ¥3500, he said.

Another use for the folding pruning saws is hiking, camping, or hunting. I don't do any hunting in Japan where I am living now, but went nearly every year while living in the US. The folding saws give you lot of cutting power in a very compact and lightweight package, much less than an axe. Obviously, a hatchet has more uses than a saw in the woods and mountains, but it is a lot heavier in the backpack at 12,000 ft. The longer pruning saw blades (without the folding handle) can easily be fitted with simple, lightweight wood scale grips (lighter than rubber), and a cardboard sheath made to create a tool for hiking, camping, hunting with even more power and less weight. I miss the axe for striking things like tent pegs at times, but a rock works almost as well. The saw won't split firewood like an axe or hatchet, but cuts limbs and smaller pieces of wood very quickly indeed. I have this saw in my 72 hr emergency kit here in Japan now.

The smaller replaceable saws for woodworking are an excellent value, and can do great work. The replaceable-blade dozuki variety perform very well in most applications, but are not as precise, nor do they cut quite as cleanly as, the better quality hand-forged dozuki saws. Too much set, and the plate is simply flat, instead of being shaped. But most folks will never do the style of work where this difference will become obvious.

You can improve the performance of your replaceable-blade ("kaeba") dozuki significantly by carefully removing some of the set.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Luke, if you like Japanese saws and bowsaws you should check out the Turbo Cut blades, available at Wood Joy and Highland Woodworking. There are Turbo Cut: rip, XX and universal tooth designs. They are essentially Japanese saw blades that fit bowsaws. They usually come in a Jigging/turning narrow width and wider blades for XXs & rips.

Interesting that everyone says the same thing about being careful with pressure on Japanese saws.

I was just checking for replacement blades for Silky saws and discovered that they have no set but the blades are apparently tapered. I am wondering if this is normal for Japanese saw blades? I thought tapered blades had just about died out, but maybe not.

Its just a simple, straightline, taper easily ground or cut in an automated machine. These blades are all made with automated machines with very little human handling.

[Lenore Epstein]

You can improve the performance of your replaceable-blade ("kaeba") dozuki significantly by carefully removing some of the set.
Stanley, how would this be done? Could I reduce the set without special equipment?

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley, how would this be done? Could I reduce the set without special equipment?

There a several ways to remove some set from a sawblade, but the only method I can recommend is the one I was taught by a professional saw sharpener (metateshi) many moons ago. It works. But first, let's review a few facts:

Please understand the the extravagant set found in kaeba saw blades is not there by accident, but is intentionally manufactured into the blade for several very good reasons:
1. Reduces friction and keep the sawblade from binding in the kerf.
2. Makes the sawblade more effective at cutting a wide range of woods, including wet and "hairy" woods which tend to cause a sawblade to bind badly.
3. Allows the user to make directional changes easier by providing room in the kerf to lean the blade to the right or left.
4. And the most important reason they build humungous amounts of set into kaeba saws is that manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers want to avoid complaints and product returns by careless users and inexperienced amateurs who often blame their inattention or lack of skills on the innocent saw.

This method will significantly improve the performance of a quality mass-produced kaeba saw, but because the plate of such a sawblade, while typically "roller-pressure tensioned", is still just a piece of flat, untapered, unhammered, unscraped, pre-hardened Swedish steel bought in large rolls, there are limits to the possible improvement you and I can reasonably hope to achieve. If you want a better kaeba saw, and have the requisite skills to take advantage of the results, follow these steps:

1. Remove the sawblade from the handle and back, and lay it down on a flat surface covered in newspaper. I am right handed, so I orient the blade with the handle end located closest to me, the tip facing away from me, and the teeth to the right;
2. Coat the blade and teeth with a non-toxic water-based cutting fluid. Or you can spray the saw plate and teeth with WD-40, CR 556 or some other very light lube;
3. Lay a wide (versus narrow), and hard (versus soft, the harder the better) Arkansas stone on the plate with the long axis oriented the same as the sawblade, and with stone's right edge riding the teeth;
4. Being careful to NOT apply ANY downward pressure, drag the stone towards the handle end of the blade. Once should suffice, but twice may be necessary. Too much will ruin the teeth;
5. Repeat on the opposite side of the sawblade. Be careful to make the same number of strokes on each side, and to make the time and distance the stone spends riding over the teeth identical;
6. This step is very important: Wash the blade carefully with soap and under running water, or thoroughly spray the teeth with spray lube, or better yet, a degreaser, to remove and even blast stone grit from the teeth. Yes, there is is stone grit hiding inside the teeth now. Yes, it is much harder than the steel. Repeat while scrubbing with a fine toothbrush to force out the hidden grit. Flouride toothpaste is not necessary. Finally, rinse with WD-40, a spray degreaser, or some other light lube. If you foolishly skip this step, stone grit will become embedded in the wood during the first cut and will dull the following teeth, I promise you.
7. Reattach the handle, and clamp a piece a soft wood, something like white pine, in your vise with a straight, vertical, line marked crosscut, and this line truly plumb. Hold the saw as lightly as possible, ideally between thumb and forefinger acting like a gimbal, and make a test cut. Without guidance, the blade should cut straight down and not curve off to the right or left. If it wanders, another very light stroke with the stone, and cleaning of the teeth, on the side to which the cut wandered may be necessary.

You should immediately notice an improvement in the smoothness of the saw's cut, and it should exhibit less of a tendency to wander. But if your sawing technique is bad, or you tend to not pay attention during the cut, you will find it more difficult to bring a wayward cut back to the line.

Admittedly, this reduces the effective life of the sawblade a bit, but it will cut more precisely, and cleaner, afterwards.

This method works with induction-hardened teeth.

The same thing can be done with a file, but the results will not be as good. I recommend careful cleaning afterwards even if you use a file. Files will not work on induction-hardened teeth.

Believe it or not, a skilled saw sharpener can remove the set with a hammer and anvil. I wouldn't even try.

I have heard of clamping the blade in a vise, or between two plates of steel, to bend the teeth thereby reducing set. Not sure how well it would work, or if the teeth's sharpness would be worth a tinker's damn afterwards. If you have used the vise method, please tell us how it went.

Stan

[Luke Dupont]

Believe it or not, a skilled saw sharpener can remove the set with a hammer and anvil. I wouldn't even try.

I have heard of clamping the blade in a vise, or between two plates of steel, to bend the teeth thereby reducing set. Not sure how well it would work, or if the teeth's sharpness would be worth a tinker's damn afterwards. If you have used the vise method, please tell us how it went.

Stan

Interesting that you mention Arkansas stones. Do you tend to ever use them with Japanese tools, or do you just have a few laying about?

For my western saws, I actually set the teeth by hand with a wrest or screw driver and remove any excessive set with a hammer, as Frank Klausz demonstrates. I find that using a few blocks of hardwood (or softer, depending how much set I'm trying to remove) sandwiching the plate makes getting consistent results easier. I wouldn't recommend this technique if you can't add more set back, though, because it's easy to go too far and remove too much set. It definitely takes some practice.

I might try your stone technique on some of my disposable blade saws. It sounds much easier to get consistent results that way.

[Stanley Covington]

Interesting that you mention Arkansas stones. Do you tend to ever use them with Japanese tools, or do you just have a few laying about?

For my western saws, I actually set the teeth by hand with a wrest or screw driver and remove any excessive set with a hammer, as Frank Klausz demonstrates. I find that using a few blocks of hardwood (or softer, depending how much set I'm trying to remove) sandwiching the plate makes getting consistent results easier. I wouldn't recommend this technique if you can't add more set back, though, because it's easy to go too far and remove too much set. It definitely takes some practice.

I might try your stone technique on some of my disposable blade saws. It sounds much easier to get consistent results that way.

Arkansas stone have their place in my workshop, mostly for sharpening and polishing tools and machine parts that must stay absolutely flat. I grew up using Arkansas stones, and despite what Warren says, have a lot of experience using them. I simply moved on to more efficient stones for sharpening blades.

Have you used the hardwood block technique with kaeba saws? Did it work well?

Compared to the typical Western dovetail saw which has 15 to 17 ppi, the finer-toothed kaeba saws have 30 ppi. Adding set back to such tiny and delicate teeth would be challenge.

I have a custom-made dozuki with 42ppi, and the sawsmith set the teeth with a hammer and anvil in a continuous series of hammer strikes, 3 or 4 minutes per side. When I asked, he said he doesn't even see the teeth anymore, just hits them. He files the teeth without bothering to look at them either.

It wouldn't be worth the cost to have such a man tune a kaeba dozuki blade, so the stoning process is a useful option.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

I have heard of clamping the blade in a vise, or between two plates of steel, to bend the teeth thereby reducing set. Not sure how well it would work, or if the teeth's sharpness would be worth a tinker's damn afterwards. If you have used the vise method, please tell us how it went.
Stan

To do this by clamping you have to ensure that the two flat steel plates (I use Starrett's precision-ground O1) will apply pressure exactly parallel to each other and to the sawplate. You can do that with a good machinist's vise, and you can also accomplish it by floating one of the plates so that it registers to the sawplate and thereby to the other plate in a common mechanic's vise. The "floating plate" approach is preferable for saws with tapered plates even if you do have a parallel vise, because then you want the clamp plate to follow the taper.

You then find a sheet of paper, the thickness of which is roughly equal to (or slightly larger than) the desired final pre-side set. Fold the paper over the teeth such that it covers both sides, insert that package into your vise, and clamp away. It's remarkably accurate, and is based on the observation that the tooth points apply enough local pressure to pierce/compress the paper and therefore register to the clamping plates, while the sawplates apply much less pressure and register to the ~full thickness of the paper.

The clamping plates don't need to be harder than the saw plate, because you're just bending weakly supported cantilevered beams (the teeth) as opposed to actually indenting material as in a hardness test.

EDIT: The big advantage of the clamping approach is that it doesn't add another facet to the tooth. Stoning does, since it creates a side-facet ~parallel to the plate at the full set distance. While avoding such side-facet is generally held to be a plus on Western saws, I don't know about Japanese ones.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have a handful of Japanese saws. A 240mm Ryoba (made by Gyokucho) is what I find myself using the most, because of it's versatility and size. I find it to be quite adequate for smaller timber frame work and woodworking as long as it's not super detailed work.

I recently got a fine Dozuki from Lee Valley (this one -> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=70898&cat=1,42884,42898&ap=1 ) and it seems like a great saw so far. I used it to crosscut recently on some stretcher tenons for a Roubo style bench I'm building and found that in crosscutting Doug Fir 3" + wide it had a tendency to wander on the far side of the cut, consistently to the right at the bottom of the far side, even with a light touch. I switched to the Ryoba for those cuts and have had no issues with the cut wandering, so that is probably a bit wide for that saw to crosscut (the blade is only 7 1/4" long, I believe.) Haven't cut any dovetails with it yet, but I imagine that's where it would shine. It's very smooth and the teeth are very fine (25 tpi). I'd love to get a slightly longer (9" ?) Dozuki for larger work.

I've found that less is more with the pull saws. If you take your time getting the cut started accurately and don't force the saw, the quality and accuracy of the cut will be better for it. Seems like a no-brainer, but a slightly different touch than Western saws.

[Stanley Covington]

To do this by clamping you have to ensure that the two flat steel plates (I use Starrett's precision-ground O1) will apply pressure exactly parallel to each other and to the sawplate. You can do that with a good machinist's vise, and you can also accomplish it by floating one of the plates so that it registers to the sawplate and thereby to the other plate in a common mechanic's vise. The "floating plate" approach is preferable for saws with tapered plates even if you do have a parallel vise, because then you want the clamp plate to follow the taper.

You then find a sheet of paper, the thickness of which is roughly equal to (or slightly larger than) the desired final pre-side set. Fold the paper over the teeth such that it covers both sides, insert that package into your vise, and clamp away. It's remarkably accurate, and is based on the observation that the tooth points apply enough local pressure to pierce/compress the paper and therefore register to the clamping plates, while the sawplates apply much less pressure and register to the ~full thickness of the paper.

The clamping plates don't need to be harder than the saw plate, because you're just bending weakly suuported cantilevered beams (the teeth) as opposed to actually indenting material as in a hardness test.

EDIT: The big advantage of the clamping approach is that it doesn't add another facet to the tooth. Stoning does, since it creates a side-facet ~parallel to the plate at the full set distance. While avoding such side-facet is generally held to be a plus on Western saws, I don't know about Japanese ones.

Patrick:

Thanks for the excellent description. I will give it a try next time.

I don't think the facets are a plus, they are just better than the alternative.

Stan

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for coming to the rescue yet again Stanley. Good to know how the Silky saws fit into the Japanese saw world.

Phillip got me to the Lee Valley Japanese saw pages. They actually sell both of the Silky saws I have and replacement blades too, should have checked there. I was also interested to read their explanation of Japanese saw technology and how this technology made it to Taiwan and from there apparently to Korea. LV sells a "Steel-Backed Dozuki" made in South Korea that costs less than a replacement blade for my Silky Dozuki. LV claims this saw is comparable to their top-of-the-line professional dozuki. They insinuate that Korea may be making blades for companies like Silky now.

I wonder if the South Korean saw is worth a shot? It seems a little odd that it is a good size saw, 22 1/2 inches overall with a 265mm blade. The 25 tpi blade with the steel back is between what LV lists my Woodboy Kataba is at 22 tpi and my steel backed Silky Dozuki at 28 tpi. Lee Valley list their professional grade Japanese saw as 25 tpi too. I believe the intended use for these saws is "fine work", which could be dovetails or even tenons I imagine.

Brian, where are you ordering your saws from?

[Stanley Covington]

Phillip got me to the Lee Valley Japanese saw pages. They actually sell both of the Silky saws I have and replacement blades too, should have checked there. I was also interested to read their explanation of Japanese saw technology and how this technology made it to Taiwan and from there apparently to Korea. LV sells a "Steel-Backed Dozuki" made in South Korea that costs less than a replacement blade for my Silky Dozuki. LV claims this saw is comparable to their top-of-the-line professional dozuki. They insinuate that Korea may be making blades for companies like Silky now.

I wonder if the South Korean saw is worth a shot? It seems a little odd that it is a good size saw, 22 1/2 inches overall with a 265mm blade. The 25 tpi blade with the steel back is between what LV lists my Woodboy Kataba is at 22 tpi and my steel backed Silky Dozuki at 28 tpi. Lee Valley list their professional grade Japanese saw as 25 tpi too. I believe the intended use for these saws is "fine work", which could be dovetails or even tenons I imagine.

Its been some years since I was in intimate contact with kaeba saw makers in Japan. When I was, however, they were afraid of their technology getting to China. In fact, one company that makes the sawblade making machines told me that they were aware of a couple of their old worn-out machines they sold used to another Japanese company that ended up in Korea.

I think there are two things you can rely on with the Koreans, Taiwanese, and most especially the Chinese: The first is that they will replace the extremely high-quality Swedish steel the Japanese companies use with lower-quality steel. The second is that tolerances will get sloppy. The Taiwanese will be better than the Koreans, who will be better than the Chinese.

The Swedish steel is really excellent stuff. Too nice to throw away when the blade is dull or kinked. The best blade steels in the world, whether Japanese, American, or German, start with Swedish steel.

22 TPI is standard for teeth found on Japanese kaeba dozuki. Professional saws start at 30TPI. 36 - 42TPI are high end professional saws. The plate on a truly professional saw is entirely different in shape (varying thickness and taper) requiring many hours of hand work by men with many years of experience, something that cannot be done by machine or at a low price, much less in Taiwan or Korea by factory workers operating automated machinary. These skills are not unique to Japan, but the skills are no longer alive outside Japan anymore, that I know of. The old high-end USA saws are a treasure.

A description of sizzle in an ad is not bacon, even if it's sold from Canada. LV does not sell a truly professional-grade dozuki saw, which would start in price at around $450, and not be kaeba (not that professionals don't use kaeba saws). I am talking about Japanese professional standards, not Canadian. You really must compare a kaeba saw, even a tuned one, and professional grade dozuki side by side in the same precision work to tell the difference. It is huge. F1 versus minvan.

I know what I am talking about when the subject is dozuki saws. I own and use saws that any tategushi or kumikozaiku-shi would lust after.

Stan

[Lenore Epstein]

Many thanks, Stan! I have a 3" Arkansas stone in my ski tuning kit, but I'm not sure it would be easy to handle in this context. Would a ceramic waterstone like my Shapton Pros work (assuming thorough cleanup and re-oiling the saw afterward)? I understand that fluoride toothpaste isn't necessary, but would you recommend whitening toothpaste? :rolleyes:

I know that my main sawing issues are insufficient practice and plain old boneheaded impatience, but it's good to know there are ways to improve these saws if it comes to that.

[Stanley Covington]

Many thanks, Stan! I have a 3" Arkansas stone in my ski tuning kit, but I'm not sure it would be easy to handle in this context. Would a ceramic waterstone like my Shapton Pros work (assuming thorough cleanup and re-oiling the saw afterward)? I understand that fluoride toothpaste isn't necessary, but would you recommend whitening toothpaste? :rolleyes:

I know that my main sawing issues are insufficient practice and plain old boneheaded impatience, but it's good to know there are ways to improve these saws if it comes to that.

Lenore:

Waterstones will not work at all. You need something very hard that the teeth will not dig into.

3" is pretty short. 7" or even 8" would be much better. Make sure the edge of the stone that the teeth will first contact is rounded or beveled so it won't hang up.

I suppose a really fine diamond plate would work too.

Stan

[Dave Beauchesne]

I have a custom-made dozuki with 42ppi, and the sawsmith set the teeth with a hammer and anvil in a continuous series of hammer strikes, 3 or 4 minutes per side. When I asked, he said he doesn't even see the teeth anymore, just hits them. He files the teeth without bothering to look at them either.



Stan

Stanley - 42PPI? That makes my eyes hurt just reading that - - I am always amazed at Japanese Craftsmen - true masters in so many ways. Thanks for that -

Dave B

[Chris Fournier]

I like the fact that my hand is typically closer to the cutting edge when using Japanese saws but with the woods that I use in my shop and the need to have a robust saw that will eat about anything and can be sharpened in my shop I have sided with the western fare. The technique held me back from the western saw but I just practised and got the chops. I use the Japanese saws that I have for the occasional cut usually when making guitars. If they disappeared I would miss them each about once a year. YMMV as they say.

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley - 42PPI? That makes my eyes hurt just reading that - - I am always amazed at Japanese Craftsmen - true masters in so many ways. Thanks for that -

Dave B

The teeth are very delicate, intended only for fine work in straight-grained softwoods such as hinoki cypress, cedar, paulownia, etc., and that without knots. Especially made for me for kumikozaiku in 1987, if I recall correctly, by a gentleman named Shibuki who has since gone to the big woodpile in the sky.

The first time I used it was during a 3 week intensive training course in kumikozaiku in Saitama Prefecture that same year. The other guys there, including the instructors, were drooling over it.

Stan

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for your comments Stanley. The "professional" label was Lee Valley's, or the manufacturer's not mine. At the moment I am just trying to figure out a replacement for the Silky folding "Kataba", which is again the label from the LV store. I think Silky just calls it a dozuki.

It has occurred to me that I might want to replace the saw I have with a better saw or two. I like Japanese saws and seem to be more accurate with them. They are easier to make room for too. I have been on a less is more program.

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks for your comments Stanley. The "professional" label was Le Valley's, or the manufacturers not mine. At the moment I am just trying to figure out a replacement for the Silky folding "Kataba", which is again the label from the LV store. I think Silky just calls it a dozuki.

It has occurred to me that I might want to replace the saw I have with a better saw or two. I like Japanese saws and seem to be more accurate with them. They are easier to make room for too. I have been on a less is more program.

I understood, Mike. Not sure everyone else did.

I use both Western and Japanese saws. Each has its place and advantages. Now that I am living in Japan again, and can get sharpening services relatively easily, I find myself using Japanese saws most of the time. Most Japanese saws are designed for softwoods, which Japan has historically had in abundance. Wonderful woods. But oak or maple will mess up the teeth. I have a custom-forged matched set of crosscut and rip dozuki made especially for hardwoods, real hummers, as they say. My point is that you should develop your skills and experiment along the way until you find what works best for you. Of course, as I know, that is exactly what you are doing.

A well-tuned Western saw can do just as good work as a Japanese saw for most applications. The exception is the fine work of the dozuki, especially cutting tenon shoulders, which dozuki means. Kumikozaiku is another application where the dozuki has no peers.

I agree with the "less is more" philosophy in principle, but I like to experience a variety of quality tools too much to be satisfied when I find something better. And because the tools I buy nowadays are mostly custom made and frequently quite expensive, unlike Mr. Schwarz, I am not inclined to give them away just to keep the inventory small. I don't buy junk, used tools, or bargain tools to begin with. That just means that I have a core group of tools I can rely on, and others I use as well.

Stan

[Paul Bent]

Stan, just a quick thank you. I followed your directions explicitely and now I have an Gyoko (sp) dozuki which I can feel the plate barely touching the sidewalls in use. Considering it was probably not a very wise purchase initially as my research was limited and it left a large kerf which drove me nuts, I now have an acceptable saw instead of a waste of money. Two strokes per side and a scrubbing afterword left me with a straight, smooth line.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, just a quick thank you. I followed your directions explicitely and now I have an Gyoko (sp) dozuki which I can feel the plate barely touching the sidewalls in use. Considering it was probably not a very wise purchase initially as my research was limited and it left a large kerf which drove me nuts, I now have an acceptable saw instead of a waste of money. Two strokes per side and a scrubbing afterword left me with a straight, smooth line.

Paul:

Glad to hear someone tried it. It really works, doesn't it.

Good luck in all your righteous endeavors.

Stan

PS: Did you use minty fresh toothpaste, or whitening toothpaste?;)

[Sam Murdoch]

I use the SILKY MASTERS in the shop. The Masters is a frame that allows for changing out blades. I really enjoy my Silkys and will need to try Stanley's technique to ease the set. I think though for my older blades the usefulness of that technique has passed - so the next set of replacement blades will get some attention.

My Silky woods saws are superior to anything else I have ever used - yes including Fiskars or Sandviks

[Frederick Skelly]

Stan,
I don't have any Arkansas stones. Could I do this with a diamond stone or one of my Shapttons, perhaps around 1000 grit?

Thank you,
Fred

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,
I don't have any Arkansas stones. Could I do this with a diamond stone or one of my Shapttons, perhaps around 1000 grit?

Thank you,
Fred

Fred:

I think you could do it with a fine diamond plate. Fewer strokes would be better.

Whatever you use, it needs to be hard. You don't want the teeth to dig into the stone. A hard ceramic stone would work fine. But a soft Arkansas stone would not be good. Nor would a waterstone work well.

Stan

[andy bessette]

These are my most used Japanese saws. The Razor saw (bottom) getting the most action and so handy for my portable tool kit, with its removable/replaceable blade. Extremely handy for cutting compound angles.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/yo-andrew/Japanese-saws-1_zpst4stehuu.jpg

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you Stan!