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Dave Lehnert
07-14-2016, 8:10 PM
I am long overdue buying a portable generator for emergency use.
I have put off buying because I don't know much about them.
I have narrowed my choice down to two because..........

1) Price. This is the price range I like for something that may get used once in 5 years.
2) I have a friend with a Champion brand for years and it has been flawless.

First unit.

http://www.lowes.com/pd/Champion-Power-Equipment-3-400-Running-Watts-Portable-Generator-with-Engine/50436748?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-OutdoorPowerEquipment-_-Generators-_-50436748:Champion_Power_Equipment&CAWELAID=&kpid=50436748&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=542&k_clickID=29ce70c9-c448-4b6b-943f-594fd2b14895

Second unit

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/champion-power-equipment-3500w-4000w-portable-generator

First off I notice the one from Lowes is only 120 volt. but two 120 outlet
TSC generator is 120/ 240 but only one 120 volt outlet.

Question- Notice they sell a cord to convert 240 to a four outlet 120. What is the advantage? why not get a cheap power strip and plug it into the 120 volt outlet.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/auto-atv/garage-equipment-accessories/generators-accessories|/pc/104796180/c/104727780/sc/104356980/champion-14-power-cord/1954901.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fgene rators-accessories%2Fchampion%2F_%2FN-1100811%2B1000003046%2FNe-1000003046%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

I understand 240 volt may come in handy but wonder if I would go to the trouble hooking into the panel to run the furnace , stove etc... If I can just run a space heater ,microwave, refrigerator / freezer on 110 for a few hours in an emergency.

What size generator do you have for an emergency and do you wish you got bigger or smaller?

Malcolm McLeod
07-14-2016, 8:34 PM
I have considered such, but never pulled the trigger. Couple of other things you might consider (or might already have?) are:
1) Portability - Is it just for your home, or maybe also for camping, field work, etc?
2) Fuel - You have to store both generator and any extra fuel.
3) Expected load - Will your linked units carry the appliances you listed? (Total amps of breakers feeding them is a good place to start.)
I don't know your location, but also consider frequency/duration of outages, what temperature extremes during an outage, and what do you have to lose? (favorite TV show? a chicken dinner in freezer? or a child on breathing assist equipment?). ...ROI gets pretty easy in some cases.

I drool over the natural gas fueled units that sit outside, even if not full auto-start/cutover and I have to go throw the breakers and start it, it is never in the way, it will run virtually forever with no excursions to a station that also has no power.

Ole Anderson
07-14-2016, 9:26 PM
I have a 5500 watt manual start Generac I got 2 years ago at HD for $500, it was a return with 5 hours on it. Noisy but not as bad as the unit it replaced. I just used it last night for a 12 hour storm related power outage. My buddy just got a Champion 7000 watt electric start multi fuel from Costco for just over $ 700 three weeks ago. Quieter, but not as quiet as a Honda, the gold standard. He plans on running his on propane. I helped him set it up and get it started. Very nice. both have 120 volt outlets as well as twist lock four wire 240 volt outlets. I have mine wired into my panel which requires manually throwing breakers, his is similar but it has a safety slide on his main breaker panel that disconnects the mains when connecting the generator.

Both of us will have all our lights, refrigerator, microwave, fans, everything you need to be comfortable without running extension cords to things like your refrigerator. I can run my furnace, he can run a few electric baseboard heaters and his well pump ( I have city water). I lock out my range and a/c as they draw too much for the genny. When I am done using mine, I turn off the fuel and run the carb dry, he does the same but the propane isn't going to gum up a carb. Neither of us have a "whole house" genny, but you wouldn't know it driving by when everyone else is blacked out and our houses are lit up like a Christmas tree. My suggestion? Get a $700 genny and pay an electrician to install a separate generator panel with transfer switch. Get one that runs on natural gas or propane if possible, using a quick connect rubber gas line. Otherwise always keep the gas tank filled and hit it with Stabil, and run it every 3 months. Swap out the gas after 18 months if you don't otherwise use it.

But if all you really want is something to keep your food cold, just get a small 2000 watter intended for a campsite, they are very quiet and small. Then run an extension cord to your fridge.

The 240-120 power cord allows you to use two 15 or 20 amp circuits, thereby using all 4000 watts of power. But you could do the same just plugging into both of the 120 outlets on the generator. Run a couple of 12 ga extension cords into your house and split off there with your power strips.

Dave Lehnert
07-14-2016, 9:50 PM
I have a 5500 watt manual start Generac I got 2 years ago at HD for $500, it was a return with 5 hours on it. Noisy but not as bad as the unit it replaced. I just used it last night for a 12 hour storm related power outage. My buddy just got a Champion 7000 watt electric start multi fuel from Costco for just over $ 700 three weeks ago. Quieter, but not as quiet as a Honda, the gold standard. He plans on running his on propane. I helped him set it up and get it started. Very nice. both have 120 volt outlets as well as twist lock four wire 240 volt outlets. I have mine wired into my panel which requires manually throwing breakers, his is similar but it has a safety slide on his main breaker panel that disconnects the mains when connecting the generator.

Both of us will have all our lights, refrigerator, microwave, fans, everything you need to be comfortable without running extension cords to things like your refrigerator. I can run my furnace, he can run a few electric baseboard heaters and his well pump ( I have city water). I lock out my range and a/c as they draw too much for the genny. When I am done using mine, I turn off the fuel and run the carb dry, he does the same but the propane isn't going to gum up a carb. Neither of us have a "whole house" genny, but you wouldn't know it driving by when everyone else is blacked out and our houses are lit up like a Christmas tree. My suggestion? Get a $700 genny and pay an electrician to install a separate generator panel with transfer switch. Get one that runs on natural gas or propane if possible, using a quick connect rubber gas line. Otherwise always keep the gas tank filled and hit it with Stabil, and run it every 3 months. Swap out the gas after 18 months if you don't otherwise use it.

But if all you really want is something to keep your food cold, just get a small 2000 watter intended for a campsite, they are very quiet and small. Then run an extension cord to your fridge.

The 240-120 power cord allows you to use two 15 or 20 amp circuits, thereby using all 4000 watts of power. But you could do the same just plugging into both of the 120 outlets on the generator. Run a couple of 12 ga extension cords into your house and split off there with your power strips.

'Lots of good info. Thanks!
Running cords into the house looks like to be the best option for me.

I was wondering if there was a reason one could not use a power strip since the one linked in my op above only has one or two 120 outlets. Was starting to consider this one with eight 120 outlets. But $100 more.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419023_200419023

Allan Speers
07-15-2016, 1:02 AM
Here's an odd thought:

Since you would be using this for the house, & just in an emergency -


Get a 240v model, then jumper it into your main service entrance box with alligator clips, right onto the main rails. (Through a basement window, or in the garage, or whatever.) Turn the main breaker off, so you'd have no problems when the main power gets restored.

You could then use anything in the house, without running cables all over the place, as long as you kept within the total current limitations of the generator. (No oven, etc.)

I'm not sure about the legality of doing this, but it sure would be convenient.
It would probably even be legal as long as you use portable cordage, but of course you should check first.

John K Jordan
07-15-2016, 7:41 AM
Running cords into the house looks like to be the best option for me.


A suggestion for convenience: When I lived in a city and had frequent power outages, I put the generator in a ventilated storage area under a porch and ran a cable to a box then Romex to one duplex outlet located centrally in the house. During a power outage I plugged extension cords into that outlet for the freezer, lamp, etc. That way it was very quick and easy to plug up and I didn't have to snake an extension cord out a window or door. (Funny, but since we moved to the country the power doesn't go out and my generator hasn't been needed in 13 years.)

Power strip or not, make a list of the wattage of everything you might plan to plug into the generator and make sure the family understands they may not plug anything in without consulting with you. Also, generators may put out very "noisy" power which can cause malfunction or damage to sensitive electronic devices.

If buying a new generator, I would personally look for one that would power my MIG welder at 220v to make it portable.

BTW, be careful when connecting a generator to the house breaker panel without a transfer switch. Besides the chance of blowing up your generator and burning your house down when the power comes back on (even with the main breaker turned off) it can be very dangerous for the lineman trying to restore power - the transformer can step up the voltage to thousands of volts and feed it back into the utility lines. A utility guy told me that once and just now I read this:



I worked as a high voltage lineman for 30 years and have seen all kinds of squirrelly generator set ups. It is never a good idea to plug your generator into your home's wiring even if your turn your main off. NEC requires that a transfer switch be used. I have seen more than a few main breakers that had failed and were still on when they showed off. If you do not have a transfer switch, you risk sending power back through your breaker and meter, back to the transformer, and stepping 120 volts up to line voltage. No a good thing for the linemen out in the middle of the night, in bad weather, trying to restore everyone's power.





The comment above was referenced in this thread which discusses feeding power from a generator to the panel:

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/6118/can-i-backfeed-a-portable-generator-into-my-houses-electrical-system

This story is also an entertaining warning: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/13-How-NOT-to-Connect-a-Portable-Generator.html

JKJ

Wade Lippman
07-15-2016, 9:23 AM
1) Wiring into your panel without an approved transfer switch is both illegal and dangerous.
2) Gasoline is difficult to store or buy during a significant outage. Buy the smallest generator you can so you don't need much gas. I have run my fridge, freezer, computer, a few lights and a television on a 2kw genny for a week a couple times. A kerosene heater makes more sense than a space heater, and you can live without a microwave for a few days; rather better than having nothing because you ran out of gas.
3) Propane is much better than gasoline, but you have to choose between junk and a high price.
4) My HVAC guy loves outages; they get to do a lot of repairs from people running their furnaces on crappy generators. (you get what you pay for).

george wilson
07-15-2016, 9:33 AM
I had a 9 HP Honda generator,but it burned out after being used for 3 or 4 years during Winter blackouts. An electrician friend said it had a cheap and poorly made generator unit that shorted out. I liked the motor because it would let off compression while starting it. Now I have another (Toro?),which is more powerful. But I can hardly pull the cord because it does not let off compression,and I have too much arthritis to start the blasted thing. At the time there was a long blackout and everyone was desperate to get a generator. We bought them as they were being unloaded from the truck at Lowes.

Paul F Franklin
07-15-2016, 9:37 AM
I've owned a bunch of generators over the years as I've almost always had a well and lived where outages are not uncommon. I always install a manual transfer panel with an outdoor inlet for the generator, mostly because it's not practical to run a well pump off extension cords. If all you want to run is a microwave and a heater and a few lights, running cords is a pain but manageable.

A lot of bigger microwaves (1000+ watts) have quite a starting surge; don't be surprised if you pop a breaker on a 3500 watt unit if you have a big space heater on when you start the MW. Solution is to turn of the heater while you use the MW. Have a couple of 12 or at least 14 gauge extension cords for the bigger loads. Microwaves don't like skimpy cords.

You are going to want wheels. Generators without wheels are ok for construction sites where there are plenty of strong arms, but not ideal for home use. No-flat tires are also what you want, otherwise they will be flat every time you go to use the generator.

Make sure unit has a fuel shut off, so you can run it dry without having to empty the tank. Add long term fuel stabilizer to all gas you put it in.

Buy an extra 5 gallon gas can so you always have fuel. Rotate the cans when fueling lawn and garden equipment so none of the gas gets old.

Run it for 5-10 minutes with a load in the spring and the fall to make sure all is well, then close the fuel shutoff and let it run dry.

Change the oil after the first 5 hours of use and then every year thereafter, whether you used it or not.

Ole Anderson
07-15-2016, 10:00 AM
I was wondering if there was a reason one could not use a power strip since the one linked in my op above only has one or two 120 outlets.

Each outlet on the 120 v duplex receptacle on the generator is circuit breakered at 20 amps which will give you a max of 2400 watts per outlet, therefore you need two extension cords into the house to utilize all 3400 watts. No problem putting a power strip at the end of each of the two 12 ga cords.

And when adding up your wattage, remember that if any of your plug-ins has a motor, the starting wattage is likely 3 times the running (rated) wattage. So if you have a 3/4 hp well pump that has a running wattage of, say, 900 watts, that motor alone will need about 2700 watts to start, same with a furnace. So you can see why we don't try to run a whole house a/c unless you have a very large generator. They draw lots of amps on startup.

Robert Delhommer Sr
07-15-2016, 10:24 AM
The Champion generators are excellent and have excellent customer service. I have one.

Garth Almgren
07-15-2016, 10:55 AM
I have the same Champion 7000w dual-fuel unit from Costco that Ole mentioned, and it is connected to our main panel via a professionally-installed interlock switch (Turn the main breaker off, slide the interlock plate up, then turn on the back-fed breaker for the generator) and a 240v generator cable with twist lock ends. I plan to run it on propane unless I run out, and then switch to gasoline.

I've only had to use it twice for a total runtime of less than 10 hours (our power has been oddly reliable since I bought it a year and a half ago), but I am able to run about 80-90% of our house on it, including all the lights, most of the outlets, 2 refrigerators, a chest freezer, the microwave, and the blower for our gas furnace. I left the breakers for the clothes dryer, dishwasher, oven, shop, and pond waterfall pump off since those are the really big draw items. It's the perfect size for our needs. I plan to put little dot stickers on the breakers that I will be using when the generator is running.

John Jordan has it right: Add up the wattage of everything you want to run (watts = amps x volts) and don't forget to include some overhead (10-20%?) for startup surges. Lowes has a good worksheet for guestimating how much generator you'll need: http://www.lowes.com/projects/pdfs/portable-generator-wattage-chart.pdf

And there is nothing wrong with using a power strip attached to a generator, just keeping in mind that you don't want to overload either the generator or the power strip. If you're ok with running extension cords everywhere, by all means do that, but it is really nice to not have to do that by instead having it wired into the main panel with an interlock or a transfer switch.

Mike Cutler
07-15-2016, 12:22 PM
Dave

The 240vac out to Quad 120vac is just giving you more 120vac receptacles. It differs from a strip because in the case of the strip, you have multiple outlets fed from a single source, and would be limited by the total current draw. Theoretically the 240vac to quad 120vac would give you 4 120vac circuits, with their own protection.

Everything about selecting a generator is dependent on the loads that you need to keep energized. Don't just look at generator total watts, because you do not get total watts out of a single line. It is the combination of all the generator outputs added together. Usually the one single 240vac out will be backed by a 30 amp breaker.

Unless you really, really, really have an absolute understanding of house household distribution circuits and a firm understanding of AC circuit theory. Do not "Hot Rod" your own generator into your service distribution panel. It is illegal and very dangerous. Even backfeeding through a 30, or 50 amp receptacle is only slightly less dangerous. A small generator transfer panel, with a manual disconnect, is about $500.00 and will probably cost you about a grand to have a licensed electrician install it in a code compliant manner.

If you have a lot of microprocessor/digital controllers in your appliances, you want an inverting style generator. Both of the units that you have highlighted are good for basic lights, and older style appliances. You could probably run a well pump controller, and an older furnace controller. I do not know what you have for appliances.
Propane or gas is a personal choice, but propane has less "butt" than gasoline, oil, or natural gas, per unit volume, so you need to oversize a propane powered generator, or have it set up for tri-fuel. Propane is also expensive and there is no guarantee that in a widespread outage you can have propane delivered. Then again, there are no guarantees with any fuel source.

It really does take a lot of forethought to select a genrator. It is much better that you are thinking ahead, instead of just being reactionary.

Dave Lehnert
07-15-2016, 4:09 PM
A lot of good info.
Thanks to everyone who replied.

Tom M King
07-15-2016, 5:18 PM
I forget what brand mine is, but it gets used so rarely that I keep an extra carburetor in case it goes too many years in between uses. For instance, I don't think it got used from Hurricane Floyd, until Hurricane Isabel. The carb came in handy that time. I ordered another spare after I put it away then. Even though I run all the gas out of it when put away, they don't do good sitting for years.

If you have an electric water heater, you will want one that runs 240v.

I have too many pieces to start every month or two, and especially since you can buy carbs off ebay for less than 20 bucks. I ordered a new carb for a backup string trimmer yesterday. It was 13.89 including shipping for a carb for an FS85.

Alan Rutherford
07-15-2016, 7:04 PM
I forget what brand mine is, but it gets used so rarely that I keep an extra carburetor in case it goes too many years in between uses. ....

Ridgid 6800 running watts, 8500 starting watts, manual start Yamaha engine, Lowe's, about $850 6 years ago. It's rarely used and keeping the fuel-system components happy is a challenge but not the fault of the generator. That would be the biggest argument for propane. I can't find a carb for anything like $20 for this.

Other than that I like this one. It's not hard to start. 4 120v outlets, the hour meter and the kill switch are in a removable box which can be extended with a custom 30' cord. There are 2 240v fixed outlets.

If I bought another I'd consider noise, portability (re-position it because of fumes, noise, whatever), reliability and might buy the same one again. I'd sure think about propane, though. We might not need this much power. I don't expect to run the central AC on it, we can cook on propane or charcoal. But lights, refrigeration, power tools and charging batteries would be important and I'm happy with what I have at the price.

Tom M King
07-15-2016, 7:18 PM
A friend of a friend of mine is an electrician working for a company that installs the full house, automatic generators. He told me that what they do more than anything else is replace motors on those generators. Even though the generator is rarely needed, the motor is started every so often to keep it operating. The problem is that all that starting and running for nothing wears the motors out that they have to replace. I decided I didn't want one of those.

I think the motor on my generator is a Kohler. The carb for that I expect costs more than 20 bucks too, but I still keep a spare, and have needed it. I also empty the gas tank after our power is back on. We're out in the country with a lot of trees near lines between here and the power plant.

Keith Outten
07-15-2016, 10:35 PM
Without knowing about your specific requirements I might suggest that you consider a welder/generator. If you have no need for a welder then my suggestion has no merit, if you do then the welder will provide a reason to use the machine more often than power outages. If a low price is the number one concern adding welding capability would kick this option to the curb.
.

Allan Speers
07-16-2016, 12:09 AM
A friend of a friend of mine is an electrician working for a company that installs the full house, automatic generators. He told me that what they do more than anything else is replace motors on those generators. Even though the generator is rarely needed, the motor is started every so often to keep it operating. The problem is that all that starting and running for nothing wears the motors out that they have to replace. I decided I didn't want one of those.

Hmmm. I suspect that those owners aren't doing the required maintenance. I have a 20K Generac that's about 5 years old now and still seems like new, but I'm festidious about changing the oil, plug, and even doing a valve (timing) alignment once a year, which is really important. (and a royal PITA)

The self test is only once a week, and for maybe 5 minutes. I can't see how that, alone, would wear out a solid B&S motor.

Tom M King
07-16-2016, 8:42 AM
I was just repeating what I had been told. I don't know how old those motors were, but I don't think he was making it up.

Wade Lippman
07-16-2016, 8:54 AM
The carb for that I expect costs more than 20 bucks too, but I still keep a spare, and have needed it.

How hard is it to replace a carb? It is going to be obvious how to do it, even for someone as ignorant as me?

My snowblower wouldn't run properly the second year. My wife "foolishly" bought a service contract on it. The repairman came out and replaced the carb without even looking at it. He said they were junk and I could count on it having to be replaced regularly. The last two years it has run fine, but I presume I am on borrowed time.

On ebay they sell from $17 to $37, and have 0, 2, or 3 gaskets with them. (I see 3 gaskets on the part list)
Is there likely to be any difference in quality between the $17 and $37 ones?
Will I need new gaskets?

Thanks. (sorry for getting off topic...)

-----------------------
On whole house generators... my Generac is supposed to be good for 100 days of operation. I don't believe that, but even if it is only 20 days, 250 minutes of self test every year won't make much a dent in that. I also presume they didn't bother with maintenance.

Tom M King
07-16-2016, 9:40 AM
Two small nuts, a fuel line probably with a quick clamp only requiring pliers, a throttle linkage that will be obvious and easy, and maybe a plastic switch that slides over the choke rod that turns the choke butterfly at the large opening of the throat of the carb where it sucks air in. Look at it for a minute, and it should be pretty easy to figure out. I don't think I've had to replace a gasket, but don't really remember.

The cheap ones my be directly from China, but usually with free, but slow, shipping. They're probably all made in the same factory. I always buy the cheapest, and had to replace several on small equipment some years back when a local gas station, who had been selling non-ethanol, started only selling ethanol gas without any kind of notice on the pump. They all worked fine.

edited to add: Put the thinnest of possible films of grease on both sides of any gasket before assembly, and you will never have to buy another gasket.

Tom M King
07-16-2016, 9:45 AM
Allan, the people who own the house on a point two points over from ours have a giant automatic propane generator with two exhausts coming out of it, with two large mufflers. I remember they built that house in 1994. I'll ask him when I see him if they are still using the original generator, and if any work has needed to be done with it. I have no idea when I will see them though. It's just a vacation house, and they are rarely there.

edited to add: I knew I had not seen that guy in years. He told me he had an import/export business. I called another neighbor to ask about him, and he said he was being furnished a room with three meals a day by the state. I guess I might not see him again to ask him.

Bruce Wrenn
07-18-2016, 9:39 PM
Generators can be a crap shoot. Bought a Coleman (3500 watt) thirty years ago. Never had one problem. Bought identical (except for paint color) for work. It threw a rod in less than sixty hours of use. Had new short block installed, under warranty. Used for couple years, then both brushes and diode went out. Remember these were the same model of generator, one flawless, and the other, well? Bought a couple of the DeVilbliss Power Backs (4000 watt) , with leaking tanks for less than $100 each. Had tanks replaced for FREE under recall. Even on wheels, they are big and heavy, plus are thirsty. Bought a Coleman Powermate 2250 (CL). Used it last week during 11 hour outage. We ran both fridges, and either water pump (120 V booster pump from 1500 gal storage tank) or 5000 BTU window AC and small TV. Just finished up rebuilding a Powermate 3250 watt that I picked up for $50 (CL.) Had to replace motor (cracked block,) and get rust out of tank. Check CL for some true bargins, Less than 1/3 of new, and most with low hours. Be sure and change oil over to synthetic. Buy nonethanol gas!!! Have my neighbors 7K in shop now waiting for two parts for carburator, which should be in tomorrow. For parts, Jack's Small Engines is my go to source. Order today, and UPS drops it of tomorrow, which is quicker, plus cheaper than my local dealer. Here (central NC), on CL you can find 4000 - 5000 watt generators for less than $250, FYI

Pat Barry
07-19-2016, 8:05 AM
I have no direct knowledge on this but have heard that not all generator output is the same even though they may be rated for the same voltage. Some of them have cleaner power sources that work better than do other simpler types. For example, using the generator to run electronic devices and even motors might be a problem due to noisy power and or non-sine-wave sources whereas running lights and simple applicances is doable with just about any generator. You might not get a decent picture on your TV for example, or your wifi modems and routers might not work, or your compressor motor might not start in your refrigerator. Anyone have an experiences like that

Rod Sheridan
07-19-2016, 8:14 AM
There are two methods of using a portable generator for powering loads during an outage, each requires a different type of generator.

1) Portable generator running a couple of items via an extension cord.

For this application you need a generator with the neutral bonded to ground (the generator will indicate that via a sticker on the unit normally), and you need to connect the generator frame ground to a ground rod or your building ground

2) Portable generator with a transfer panel, you need a generator that does not have the neutral bonded to ground (normally indicated by a sticker on the unit). Grounding is taken care of by the wiring between the generator and the transfer panel.

Regards, Rod.

Eric DeSilva
07-19-2016, 11:31 AM
Amen. I'm a big believer in full house generators. Got a similar Generac installed years ago because we kept losing power in storms and had some close calls with the battery backup on the sump pump during long storms. It is piped into the house's natural gas supply and wired in with an automatic transfer switch. Saved my bacon during the DC derecho, where we lost power for 10 days during 95F summer days. The generator ran continuously, but kept the heat pumps, fridge, freezer, lights and entertainment running nicely. Even though our power seems more reliable these days, I'm still glad I've got it. Thing has run like a champ.

Roger Feeley
07-19-2016, 1:13 PM
Any gas engine that you only run once or twice a year is going to be problematic. People don't take care of them and then when you really need it, it doesn't start because the fuel system is all gummed up. I live in a house where the previous owner abandoned two generators in the basement. I don't know if either of them runs.

That engine dilemma is why, instead of a snow blower, I bought a snow blower attachment for the riding lawn mower. This thing is a win-win. My mower gets run in the winter (a win) and my snow-blower gets run in the summer. If only I could build a generator attachment for the mower....hmmmmm.

We are actually living with my daughter and son-in-law and building in-law quarters. Our panel will be slaved off of the main house. My master plan includes a natural gas generator on the main house which would include both structures.

Brian Elfert
07-19-2016, 8:57 PM
Amen. I'm a big believer in full house generators. Got a similar Generac installed years ago because we kept losing power in storms and had some close calls with the battery backup on the sump pump during long storms. It is piped into the house's natural gas supply and wired in with an automatic transfer switch. Saved my bacon during the DC derecho, where we lost power for 10 days during 95F summer days. The generator ran continuously, but kept the heat pumps, fridge, freezer, lights and entertainment running nicely. Even though our power seems more reliable these days, I'm still glad I've got it. Thing has run like a champ.

I just put in a natural gas standby generator and hope to never use it. No power outages in 18 months, but I have well water so no power means no water. I bought a used generator from a generator installation company that was demonstrated to work properly. All told it was about $3000 for the generator install including generator, transfer switch, pad, gas piping install, and electrical parts. I would spent at least $1,700 more for a new generator. I did all the electrical work with the help of my father.

Alan Rutherford
07-19-2016, 10:19 PM
I posted earlier in this thread that I liked my gas generator but would consider propane if I was doing it again. I just looked into converting this one to propane but it's not practical. It costs $150-200 unless you DIY and cut some safety corners and I'd need a large propane tank. We just have a couple for a grill. We also have no access to natural gas. The gasoline has to work.

The good news is that I was mistaken about not being able to find an inexpensive replacement carburetor for the Yamaha MZ360 which powers my generator. I found several for less than $25 on Amazon. I must not have looked hard enough before. With fresh gas in the cans and a spare carburetor and filters we'll be in good shape, and I'll go out and fire it up more often.

Jerome Stanek
07-20-2016, 7:10 AM
I see Woot has a Raven MPV7100 Hybrid Riding lawnmower Power generator and Utility Vehicle this morning

Ole Anderson
07-20-2016, 9:04 AM
Any gas engine that you only run once or twice a year is going to be problematic. People don't take care of them and then when you really need it, it doesn't start because the fuel system is all gummed up. I live in a house where the previous owner abandoned two generators in the basement. I don't know if either of them runs.

Very simple: When you are done, close the fuel shutoff valve and run the carb dry until the engine quits. Put Stabil in the tank first. No gas in the carb to gum up. No need for extra carbs. Same with seasonal equipment, get it warmed up so it will start on one pull, dump the gas out, start and run dry.

As for whole house generators, I think most of us would like one, it is a matter of $500 vs $5,000 or more, the difference will buy a shop load of nice WW equipment and supplies that will get used a lot more frequently than a whole house generator. If you live where power outages are a frequent thing, or you have a boatload of money the equation changes.

As for generators in the basement, in a word: Don't. An entire family of five near us died last year from carbon monoxide poisoning, I am guessing from a faulty exhaust system on the generator they were running overnight in their basement. I have designed buildings with big (as big as 250 kw) gensets inside, but those have huge frequent air exchanges from the radiator fans positioned in outside walls along with engineered exhaust systems.

Al Launier
07-20-2016, 9:19 AM
This may be lengthy, but I wanted to provide you with my recommendation when selecting a portable generator for power outages.

There is a tendency to under power portable generators for home emergency use when confronted with the cost of these systems. There are some things to consider when purchasing & using a portable generator to provide electrical power for your home and would include the following:


Identify in advance which circuits to power during an outage.
Sufficient power capacity to service necessary circuits for household use, especially if multiple circuits should be required at the same time, i.e. furnace, well pump, microwave, etc. So allow for this power surge.
Circuits to consider could include :

Furnace/boiler for heating the home
Well pump for water supply
Freezer & refrigerator to store food
Microwave for cooking
Bathroom & bedroom lights


In my opinion a portable generator for emergency home use should have a minimum power capacity of 5,000 Watts with allowance for surge. Most portable generators are rated with a 25% allowance for surge, i.e. a 5KW system would be rated at 6.25KW.
I had a 5KW system for several years & then upgraded to a 7KW system. This was a significant improvement.
A portable generator should include receptacles for 240VAC, as well as 120 VAC. 5000KW +25% surge
A licensed electrician, or qualified person, capable of electrical installation in compliance to local code to prevent overload to circuits to a house service panel. This includes proper grounding, whether using the ground from the house service panel, or using a copper rod driven into the ground.
If done by other than a licensed electrician, at least have the installation checked by one.
Voltage regulation for electronic devices such as controllers on boilers/furnaces, computers, etc. to avoid damage.
Transfer switch to prevention electrical shock to public service linemen repairing.
If manually turning on circuits powered by a generator, switch off these circuits before turning on the generator, to allow switching on these circuits one at a time to prevent a sudden overload of the generator.
The engine on a generator system is much more likely to fail than the alternator. A well know engine such as Honda, B&S, and Tecumseh will ensure reliability.
Train your wife, or mature children, in the event you are not available during an outage, how to set up & start the generator with emphasis on switching off the circuits before starting the generator & labeling the circuits to switch on afterward. Recently we had a situation where my wife would not have been able to setup our portable generator when I was hospitalized while a blizzard condition was forecast the next day. Fortunately I was scheduled to be released next day when the storm was forecast. I checked myself out of the hospital a day early to get the generator set up.
Have plenty of fuel on hand to weather anticipated outages for your area.

Roger Feeley
07-20-2016, 12:11 PM
Ole, I absolutely agree with you that preventing carburator problems is fairly simple but many people forget or just don't bother. I think the two non-functional generators in our basement from the previous owner is a good example. Probably, anyone in this forum is savvy enough to take care of the engines.

We live in the DC area where major outages happen fairly often (more than never). It's not that unusual to be out of power for several days here. There are loads of houses with generators.

We used to live in suburban Kansas City and no one had generators. In our case, there were two hospitals nearby and all the lines were buried. So if a substation took a hit, we and the zillions of customers also hit were a very high priority. I think in the 20 years we lived in that house, we lacked service for maybe an hour.

Wade Lippman
07-20-2016, 12:49 PM
In my opinion a portable generator for emergency home use should have a minimum power capacity of 5,000 Watts with allowance for surge. Most portable generators are rated with a 25% allowance for surge, i.e. a 5KW system would be rated at 6.25KW.



That's quite an opinion. I got through two week long outages with a 1.6kw genny quite well thank you. Sure am glad I didn't have to find 3 times as much gasoline.
(of course I didn't have to power any pumps, but your "opinion" says nothing about pumps)

Al Launier
07-20-2016, 3:23 PM
That's quite an opinion. I got through two week long outages with a 1.6kw genny quite well thank you. Sure am glad I didn't have to find 3 times as much gasoline.
(of course I didn't have to power any pumps, but your "opinion" says nothing about pumps)
But what did you power with it with only 1.6KW?
My opinion was based on the (5) circuits, which included the well pump, and the comments noted in my post immediately preceeding them.

Charlie Velasquez
07-20-2016, 10:10 PM
Should you choose to go with a portable instead of a whole house set-up, an interlock will give you access to all your circuits. With judicious use of the circuit breakers, and the understanding that it is an emergency situation most could easily get by with a 5,000w unit and probably a little smaller.


Using Al's list I would add some modifications. (when I copied and pasted to my word processor all the numbering disappeared so I had to add them.)

1. Identify in advance which circuits to power during an outage.
Interlock lets you use all circuits

2.Sufficient power capacity to service necessary circuits for household use, especially if multiple circuits should be required at the same time, i.e. furnace, well pump, microwave, etc. So allow for this power surge.
It is seldom that you will need all these circuits at the same time. Know what your demands are and when and plan accordingly. A good frig only runs a few minutes an hour. Set it as low as it goes. Run it for 20 minutes to get to about 33, then switch it off and let it float for a few hours till it gets to about 40.Same with well pump, water heaters, microwave (would need to rethink this) sump pump

3. Circuits to consider could include : Certainly good candidates with a couple of suggestions
A. Furnace/boiler for heating the home
B. Well pump for water supply No need to run it continuously
C. Freezer & refrigerator to store food See above
D. Microwave for cooking
A microwave uses its rated cooking watts plus some to run the innerds. It is not unusual when I measure appliances in our schools for a 600w microwave to use 800w-900w. They are very efficient with that 800-900watts but you may not be interested in efficiency. You may be willing to use more watt-hours to keep the actual watt draw low. A crockpot will take more electricity to cook a meal but it will max out at about 250-300watts. Those beverage warmers for your morning coffee come in about 150-250 watts, also.

E. Bathroom & bedroom lights
I would add LED night lights to the hallways. At less than 1/4watt you provide safe pathways throughout the house. Have specific lights be designated for emergency and make sure they are LED. Lamps are the easiest to outfit. But again, if it is not visually intensive, night lights are adequate..

Additionally, a small 5,000Btu window A/C could be powered by a smaller generator.
TV and stuff can be watched via a computer monitor and internet access

Al Launier
07-21-2016, 8:20 AM
Good mods Charlie. If I still used a portable generator I would keep your suggestions in mind.

However, I must say that now having a whole house standby generator is such a relief knowing that we would be powered up should we have another power outage, especially if I should be away from home, or if this should happen while having guests at home.

Ole Anderson
07-21-2016, 10:22 AM
Interlock lets you use all circuits



Googled generator interlock and came up with this: http://natramelec.com/?gclid=CIjDw-LbhM4CFRIoaQodkEcNSQ I emailed them to see if they have one that fits mine (an Arrow-Hart)(sure glad my buddy talked me into a 200 amp panel 41 years ago!)

And frankly, unless you keep your house lit up like an airport runway, use all the lights you need, they don't draw that much, especially if you have started to convert most of your incandescent bulbs to LED or CFL bulbs. Motor and heat generating devices draw most of the juice, not electronics and lights.

Robert Payne
07-21-2016, 3:09 PM
Googled generator interlock and came up with this: http://natramelec.com/?gclid=CIjDw-LbhM4CFRIoaQodkEcNSQ I emailed them to see if they have one that fits mine (an Arrow-Hart)(sure glad my buddy talked me into a 200 amp panel 41 years ago!)

And frankly, unless you keep your house lit up like an airport runway, use all the lights you need, they don't draw that much, especially if you have started to convert most of your incandescent bulbs to LED or CFL bulbs. Motor and heat generating devices draw most of the juice, not electronics and lights.
Ole,

Charlie Vealsquez is technically correct that an Interlock does allow all of the circuits to be used, but one can indeed overload the generator with many of those circuits. You showed a picture of your panel (I assume), but although you show a generator circuit breaker just below the main breaker, it does not appear that there is a valid interlock installed. Here is a picture of the "Kit" that will be supplied for my panel, a 200 AMP Murray/Siemens panel. This simple device is added to the cover of the panel and it will allow only the Main Breaker or the Generator breaker to be in the ON position concurrently. When the home has a power failure, the Main Breaker is moved to off, high amperage circuits are turned off, the generator is turned on and the generator breaker turned on. All of the remaining circuits in the panel become activated and no power can flow out onto the grid. Lots less expensive than a transfer switch like those from Reliant that require significant rewiring. Here is a picture of the Interlock Kit available from Interlockkit.com.

https://cdn3.volusion.com/laezb.gkpek/v/vspfiles/photos/K-4010-3T.jpg?1459235079

Ole Anderson
07-21-2016, 7:57 PM
I didn't realize until today that interlock kits were a retrofit and available. I plan on installing one. Ones from National Ram Electronics (natramelec.com) are $70, half the price of those from interlockkit.com. I thought $69 was a lot for a couple of stickers, screws and a stamped piece of sheet metal, but $150, that is crazy, you can buy whole panels for less than that.

I have my high amperage breakers marked with a red marker, they get turned off when running the genny.

Robert Payne
07-22-2016, 9:52 AM
Ole,

The problem you face is that it is a code violation not to have an interlock, even if your are personally conscientious during a power outage. The code requires the main breaker to be turned off before any alternate source of power can be connected to a panel buss. The is why transfer switches and interlocks are required -- someone else in your location might not realize the protocol you follow to insure that generator power never flows out to the power grid (you could be away from home). Your homeowners insurance may be invalid in the event of a fire or accident as well. I too will look at the natramele.com site to see if a less expensive version is available for my style panel. As for cost, I suspect the $150 price is more based on low volume than true component costs; a replacement panel would easily cost less than that, but IMHO repopulating it with breakers and wiring would easily exceed that cost.

Theron Mehr
07-29-2016, 3:53 PM
You mention your friend has these models and that's why you're looking at them. That makes sense, but you really should first think through what your load will be and what you intend to run if/when the power goes out as a first step. Here's a easy to use check list (http://planbprep.com/generator-size/) that's helped others figure out the generator size they actually need. Good luck!

Joe Cushing
08-14-2016, 8:25 PM
Hi Dave,

I noticed that the generators you are looking at are a champions. I've done extensive research on the quieter, inverter generators. These are not quite the same as the ones you have picked out but I can say something about the brand itself. Champion is a model that really stood out from the competition. They were hot sellers, so there were a lot of reviews to read through. Most of them were glowing. I asked a question about one of them and the respondent, took the time to tell me how much they love their champion generator, even though that was not what I was asking about. Funny thing is, I don't even remember what it was I was asking. Many others seemed just as reliable. Maybe people were just ecstatic that the lower cost Champion worked as advertised. I wrote this long post about many inverter generators ("http://rationalpreparedness.com/what-is-the-best-small-generator-for-you/"]). If you scroll all the way to the bottom, you can see I picked a champion as my favorite, though all of the brands in the post are worth a look for different people of different needs. Just to reiterate, these generators are a different kind than you are looking at. I was only commenting on the brand. That said, it might not be bad to pick up a little guy, just to run the fridge and electronic stuff, without all the noise, and save fuel, then fire up the big guy, when you need extra power. Maybe that's more money than it's worth. I guess it depends on how often or how long you lose power. I was at the beach today, and someone had one of these little generators. It was a Honda. The crowd of about 20 people using it was literally louder than the generator. It was the first time I heard one of them being run in person. I was happy to see it. It's funny, you hear people complain about noise but I don't know how much quieter they could make it.

Bruce Wrenn
08-14-2016, 9:18 PM
As for noise, the little Honda's are in a class of their own. I own a Coleman Powermate2250 watt that's not too loud, but my Coleman Powermate 3250 makes half as much noise. My 5500 watt Devillbiss, with 10 HP Briggs is LOUD! When the power goes out, first out comes the 5.0 HP, then 3250, and if it's an extended outage, the we fire up the 5500. Currently working on installing 5500 watt in a house with removable sides and concrete pad, so I don't have to drag it out. Also adding electric start, as each year the pull rope is tougher to pull.