Help with handsaw choices...

[Bob Noles]

As I continue my downward slide into hand tools, I have became a little obsessed with the handsaw aspect and have been looking looking at online sites that have them for sale. Problem is that I see that I know very little about this wonderful too.

FIL brought me up a very old saw yesterday that has got to be over 100 years old as it belonged to his father. FIL is 85 so that is proof enough that this saw exceeds the 100 mark :cool:

I spent the better part of today restoring the saw and got all the rust off the blade and refinished the handle which was in excellent condition. Even though this saw has no identifiable markings other than the button "Warranted Superior" which could make the saw about anything, it is now a nice family heirloom and in good usable condition after I get it sharpened and it's all mine :D

Anyhow, back to my question..... I would like to allow myself about 4 old Disston Handsaws and 2 old Disston Backsaws to add to the Neander side of my shop or maybe the mix should be opposite? I already have a nice LN DT saw and a very nice Miter Box and saw on it's way.

Which 4 and 2 should I be looking at? I need TPI (or is that PPI), saw lengths and model or descriptions if possible. I know I need to rip, and crosscut and make tennons for sure.

Which 6 saws would you like to see in you shop is my question?

TIA for any help and advice.

[Leif Hanson]

For me, a complete set of saws includes the following:

a 26" or longer, 5-1/2 point rip saw (for ripping good sized lumber to size)
a 26", 8 point crosscut saw (for general crosscutting)
a 26", 10 point crosscut saw (for crosscutting finer work, like case work)
a 20", 10 or 11 point crosscut saw (a nice short saw to have handy at the bench)
a 10"-14", 12-14 point crosscut back saw (for general purpose crosscutting - ie. shoulder cuts)
a 10" - 14" 11-13 point rip filed back saw (for work like tenons)
an 8", 15-17 point rip filed back saw for dovetails and fine work.

The length of the back saws depends mostly on what kind of casework you do normally. Obviously - if you do larger case work, use longer saws, but use the shorter end of the if most of what you do is smaller stuff...

For the full size saws, the best deals out there for user saws are the pre-1928 Disston #7's, followed by pre-war D-8's and the like...

For back saws, the old Disston #4's, and similar models such as Jackson, Tyzack, Atkins, Bishop, or Simonds et. al. all make good saws.

HTH
Leif

[Mike Wenzloff]

As I continue my downward slide into hand tools...
All together now, "Slip slidin' away..."

...I would like to allow myself about 4 old Disston Handsaws and 2 old Disston Backsaws to add to the Neander side of my shop....Which 4 and 2 should I be looking at? I need PPI, saw lengths and model or descriptions if possible. I know I need to rip, and crosscut and make tennons for sure.
Which 6 saws would you like to see in you shop is my question?
TIA for any help and advice.
Oh, Bob, Bob, Bob...haven't you learned yet not to ask us to spend your money :D

I can best answer concerning what/why I have what I own and use. But seeing how I have, well, gone a wee bit above your self-control in my self-indulgence of things called saws...

If I think about which saws I use most and why, I would break it down this way.
Full-sized saws
Ripping. I work in some harder woods than my forefathers, though there is overlap. So for softer hardwoods (Maple, Sycamore and the like), I use a D-8 sized saw with 5 1/2 ppi that is 28". I use this saw on, what else, saw horses. These horses are about knee height. For softer hardwoods that I cut at the bench, held in a vice vertically, I use a D-7, 7 ppi that is 24".

The 28" saw is used at an angle of maybe 30* to 45*. This keeps X number of teeth in the cut, depending on thickness. The 24" that is used on vertically held stock has 7 ppi for the same reason, to keep X number of teeth in the cut. This is to make sawing much easier.

For hard hardwoods (Bubinga, Jatoba and the like), I use the 7 ppi for nearly all ripping. This is just to keep my teeth in my mouth :) . On the occassion I use one of my bigger, less ppi saws on hard hardwoods I use the saw horses but use a support board under the one I'm cutting, offset to avoid cutting it and actually clamp these boards to the saw horses. I sometimes put one knee on the work and one foot on the floor.

Crosscutting. For all type woods, I use mainly a D-23, 10 ppi, 26" in length. If I cut a full-sized board at the bench, I use a (Disston) Keystone K-3 Pacemaker 9 ppi, 20" in length. The shorter saw is just an issue of not having the saw go across the bench and knock over a beer. It makes a mess and causes rust.

Backsaws
The ones I use most. One is a Warren and Ted Superior (sorry, Warranted Superior) 12 ppi crosscut, 12" in length. Another, for the more discriminating joint, is a LN Carcass saw, 14 ppi, 11" blade (16" overall length). I also use a Garlick & Sons, Lynx brand saw (from Woodcraft) 15 ppi, 14" in length.

The image below is of the handle makeover for the Garlick & Sons backsaw. As purchased, the handles are ugly and uncomfortable. And hey, they're made from wood. Rasps are your friend.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/tools/slides/tenon_saws_0001b.jpg

Mike

[Roger Bell]

Mr. Hansen has provided a great set of suggestions for you. You might also consider these ideas:

First, don't get too hung up on the idea that Disston is "the best" or the only brand to seek out. The internet creates myths merely by repetition...and this is definitely one of them. Other companies made equivalent quality. Moreover, each of the well known companies made higher end and lower end offerings. Also some of the hardware store brands that you may have never heard of can turn out to be first rate as these were generally made by one of the big boys for that venue.

Second, focus instead on conditon. What I look for is (1) absolute straightness, (2) positively no pitting anywhere close to the teeth, (3) a readable etch...that way, you know what you are buying and that the maker thought enough of his product to etch his name on it. Any saw with a clear etch will re-sell faster than one without. Condition is everthing. There are plenty of used saws out there and there is no need to spend way-too-much to get something that will work for you. There are also far too many good saws out there to settle for a beater. If you have to resort to electrolysis or somesuch you are probably just pouring sand down a rathole. Think about it....how much discussion is there on the 'boards concerning saws vs. planes or chisels. That should give you an idea of the relative demand for and interest in handsaws. I believe that hand saws are still among the best values in vintage WW hand tools.

Third, handles are important. Pre WWII saws are much more likely to have well designed and crafted handles and are ah-ha just right when you pick them up. Later ones look like they have been quickly cut out and shot with lacquer. Different companies "hung" their handles in different ways. Buy and try several in order to develop your preferences for "feel".

I would recommend picking up any and every saw that appears to be pretty decent and is priced right until you have a "stable" such as that suggested by Mr. Hansen. At their relatively modest prices, you really can, over a period of months, put together a variety of saws. By modest, I mean $10-25 for carpenters and shipwrights saws....perhaps a bit more for backsaws. Some of my favorite saws only cost me $5-10. Experiment around with various lengths and configurations enough to develop some preferences. Don't put too much stock in what other people say they like. As your preferences get more refined, you can always trade off what you don't care for as much for something better. And, if you think about it, it is really pretty cheap entertainment.

Finally, you might purchase a couple repro saw catalogs. These show the manufacturers offerings, product descriptions and contrast the relative differences and also show the higher end offerings from the lower end. Keep the books in your car. That way, you have a ready reference when you encounter something. And when you find something like a nice Model 12 London Spring for a mere $40 you will know to grab it.

My personal opinion is to stay away from ebay unless you know and trust the seller. It is simply too difficult to judge the condition of a saw from a photo and it just doesnt pay to take chances with shipping costs as they are. No matter where you live, user saws are really pretty easy to find.

[Bob Noles]

Good Morning..... you guys are better than the tooth fairy. I make a post before turning in and wake up to all this wonderful information.

I am printing this thread to paper so I can study it closely and carry it with me on my rust hunting trips.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write and share so much of your knowledge. I wish there was a way to repay the kindness I receive here.

Hoping your Sunday is nothing less than fantastic.

[Alan Turner]

Bob,

Disstons are fine, and plentiful. I rarely spend more than about $35 for a Disston backsaw. I keep a 12" filed rip 12 tpi for general work, such as tenon work, or for notching a tenon for a wedge, and a 10" filed rip at 15 tpi for finer cuts, such as DT's, although my go-to guy for fine DT work is a Gent's LN. I also have a Disston 68, a gent's saw at about 15 tpi, crosscut, for small cuts at the bench on a very small bench hook. Think of cutting off dowels, etc. As to crosscutters, I have a 14" Spear & Jackson, brass back, which is a pretty agressive saw at 12 tpi. It was $45, and is a work of art. Beautiful handle. I also have a Disston No. 77 (I think that is the number) which I was given by a friend. The story goes that I picked him up some backsaws from my dealer, whom I was seeing anyway. It was cold as can be that morning (a tailgate affair), and I ran out of heat, and so made the selections too fast, and the 77, which neither of us knew to be a 77, had a bend in the blade. He was not happy, and wanted me to return it to the dealer, but I refused because it was my error, so I told him I would buy it back from him, but he wouldn't sell it back to me, I think becuase he thought that would be unfair. So, he cleaned it up beautifully (he is great with metal, very patient), and sent it, sans handle, to Tom Law, back when Tom was still sharpening saws. Well, Tom took the back off, and the blade straightened right out and was perfect. Tom called him and told him what he had, but he still didn't appreciate it, and had Tom file it at 17 tpi crosscut, which is awfully fine for a 12" back saw. My friend then put it out to me on sort of a permanent loan. He'll only get it back if I predecease him. (: On the blade it saw "For mechanics, not botchers," and "no set". It is taper ground, with .025 at the teeth, and .020 at the top, and has very little set. It is not an easy saw to use, but cuts beautifully. On the originals, the teeth were sharpened at one TPI at the front, and a finer TPI otherwise, or maybe the other way around. If the saw had been sharpened that way when I bought it, both the dealer and I would have known it was a No. 77, I would not have chosen to afford it. The 77 has slightly harder steel than the regular Disstons. I later asked the delaer if he had any No. 77's, and he did have one, a 16", but wanted $275 for it, which I am sure was its value as he is not expensive, prefering volume instead, as he loves farm auctions. However, the saw that Tom Law resharpened is now less valuable since it was sharpened differently that the original.

Keep you eyes open for Atkins, out of Cleveland. Fine saw, with the steel just a bit harder than the Disstons, which you will notice when you go to file it.

As to the Disstons, and dating them, Pre WWII they used Apple for the handles, and they are beautiful. That is what you want. Afterwards, they used Beech, and I don't think the newer saws are nearly as good, but that may be just antique snobbery weighing in.

I generally don't apy more than $5 or $10 for a full size old Disston saw as they are so plentiful, and keep only two. One at 8 tpi crosscut, and another, with the thumbhole, at 5.5 tpi rip.

If you want a real treat, go to the PATINA show in March, in Md., and Tom Law will be there. Last year he brought about 50 or so full sized saws that he had filed. He got between $25 and $50 for them, and becuase they were filed by him, they were worth every penny!!! I bought 2, one @ rip and crosscut, but I did not get pick of the litter as I did not start out at his booth, and the really good and pretty ones were gone in a heartbeat. These 2 are for the new shop, so that a student can appreaciate the true value of a hand saw that is hand filed by the world's very best. Gosh I wish he would start filing again. He does it by eye, not with micrometers, and has so many years at it that a Tom Law sharpened saw is different than any other, IMHO.

Good luck on your hunting.

[Steve Kubien]

Hi Alan,

I will echo your thoughts on Atkins saws and Tom Law.... My favourite saw is an Atkins 8tpi crosscut which Tom sharpened for me (probably one of his last). I find the handle more comfortable than anything else (personal taste of course) and you cannot beat Tom's work.

While he does not sharpen much anymore, I believe Tom does still sells saws out of his home/shop that he has picked up at garage sales and auctions. He sharpens all of those before they leave his place. So, while you may not be able to get 'your' saws sharpened, you can get more saws that are sharpened.

Cheers,
Steve Kubien
Ajax, Ontario