5 in 1 combo machines

[Brodie Brickey]

I have a small shop (built for a model A) so I'm looking to replace the cabinet saw, planer, and 8" jointer with a combination machine. I've been looking at the Hammer C3-31 Comfort model. I know some here have MiniMax combo machines. The shaper on some combos allow a router spindle which would also let me get rid of the router wing on the table saw. All in, it would be significant expense, but I wouldn't be in a rabbit warren trying to move through the machines. Sooner or later my current work flow is going to result in a problem.

I would be interested on feedback from users of combo machines:

How do you like it?
What changes did you have to address from single machine processes.
Are there any other combos out there that I should be looking at besides Feldar/Hammer and MiniMax?


It is often asked, what type of woodworking? I do a lot of woodturning. On the woodworking side, it is chairs and cabinets. I am by no means a master, middle of the road journeyman.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

You are welcome to come to Pasadena and see my MM CU300. It is by far the best machine for my own situation.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I have a Minimax c26 combo. I really like it.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?213843-Genius-in-the-house&highlight=genius

the biggest change is planning the cuts is more critical unless you do not mind changing the machine from one to the next. Going from the saw to planer is the biggest due to removing the fence and moving the planer table. Only takes 30 secs max so not a big deal. The step upward in quality and capability from my original machines was huge. I would NOT go back to previous state.

going combo is personal decision. In my situation with a small shop, it made perfect sense.

[Jim Becker]

I actually look at the changeover that Ralph mentions as an opportunity...and opportunity to "not rush" and develop both the planning he indicated as well as a pace that minimizes errors from rushing. I don't have a "full" combo...I have a J/P combo paired with a sliding table saw as that was a better option for my particular shop physically...but like Ralph mentions, moving between functions on the J/P isn't arduous nor time consuming. With the slider, I pretty much "never" edge joint, so when I do use the jointer function, it's for flattening lumber and I do that in batches. Otherwise, the thicknessing function is primary and edges are done on the slider after the boards are flat and planed to dimension. The bottom line...you'll learn to work a little differently!

[Rich Riddle]

I like both the Felder/Hammer line and MiniMax but lean more toward Minimax in tool ownership. One thing to consider is parts availability. You want a tool where you can get parts ten years down the road. Customer service proves paramount.

[Albert Lee]

I have a Belgian made Robland NX410, not as fancy as Felder/Minimax but its half price of the Felder CF741 and its enough for what I do when I fist got it, I am looking at replacing it with separate machine due to increase work load.

One thing to note the setup on the Spindle moulder requires a lot of time and often a trial run. a stand alone spindle moulder is a must if you use it often.

[John Lankers]

Brodie, I used to own a Felder CF531 and the challenge for me was it had to be accessible from both sides, the machine took up prime space in the center of my shop. I have a new, bigger shop now and I am much happier with jointer/planer and saw/shaper.
I would suggest you figure out the footprint and the workarea of the machine you're planning to buy and build a mock up from OSB, plywood or whatever and pretend working on a project.
Edit: I'm not saying Combos are bad, it just didn't work for me.

[Brodie Brickey]

John: I appreciate the point. Currently I have a 50" cabinet saw at the very front of the garage. I have to open the garage door just to use. Then re-position my jointer to have the space for a 6 foot board on the outfeed side. Put the planar on the table saw, clamp down, and run the boards. For the combo, with the garage door open, I should be able to use the slider to run the boards in and plenty of room (12' or more) before I hit the lathe. Cross cuts may require some re-positioning of the combo depending on how long they will be. I'm in So Cal and am not building kayaks so 12+ foot boards are unlikely. If I did have to cut that, I would probably use the miter or circular saw to rough dimension. The C3-31 is smaller than the CF531. I probably won't be able to length rip a sheet of plywood using the slider unless I go up to the perform version.

Albert: I haven't worked with a shaper yet, only a router table. In posts on other boards many woodworkers recommend running off an extra length or two in case you make a mistake. Have you found that necessary? I'll take a look at Robland. How easy is it to get parts? How often do you need parts? How were the instructions for setup?

Rich: Have you had issues getting parts for your EU machines? How often have you needed parts? How clear are the instruction manuals? Admittedly I'm looking at the Hammer series which is the lower cost line of Felder, but I don't think I've run across a user having more than 1 or 2 issues with the Felder/Hammer line. The MM seems to have more issues, but that is likely because it is more popular (this isn't a dig on the product line just the number of perceived issues against the % of market share MM seems to have the larger market)

Jim: Thank you, hadn't realized I might be in a position to skip the edge jointing. Good to know. Slow is good, when I go fast problems occur.

Ralph: Thanks for that thorough review.

Mike: I will definitely take you up on that.

[Andy Giddings]

Brodie, would recommend also asking this question at the Minimax and Felder Owners Group on Yahoo Groups. You need to be a member but that's a painless process

[Jeff Monson]

Hey Brodie, There is a nice looking CF-731 on woodweb, cant beat Felder quality. Worth taking a look at IMO. Not sure on locations of you and the machine, but I have had great success buying machines and getting them shipped.

[Erik Loza]

Brodie, I'm obviously not un-biased about this but will add my 2-cents:

1.) Big advocate of 5-in-1 machines, use them myself. Used to travel the trade show circuit with a CU300, in fact. I have several hundred hobbiest ww'ers with a Minimax combo in their garage or home shop. If the customer can swing the initial investment, you do get a lot more machine for your dollar. At least with Minimax.

2.) I have seen folks say that they would prefer two semi-combos (such as a jointer/planer and saw/shaper, for example) over a full combo and everyone is cetainly entitled to their own opinion but the primary reason for that always seems to boil down to, "All I could afford was the jointer/planer". Which, of course, is totally fine: I have more FS30 jointer/planers in home shops than CU300's but would be willing to bet that if I were to offer any of those guys a CU300 for the same price as an FS30, they would all say, "Heck, yes!". If you get my drift.

3.) As others have mentioned, I don't find the switch-over time to be a hassle. Sure, you will be all thumbs at first bit once you get used to it, the workflow speeds up. Like learning drive a standard transmission. Not slower, just different. If you haven't seen them already, a gentleman named Peter Nyberg made an EXCELLENT series of videos on the Minimax CU300. His Youtube channel is "Sunnybeeches". Well worth the watch, regardless of which brand combo someone is looking at...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpi1iSiR8ZE

4.) Regarding availability of parts, that has not really been an issue for most of my guys. There is rarely anything that needs replacing and if it does, SCM Group has the largest spare parts warehouse and department of anyone. Also, there is this Minimax rep and Sawmill Creek member who they say really knows the ins and outs of Minimax combos... :D

Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[John Lankers]

You live in So Cal, could it be an option to make the machine mobile. Felder (and Hammer) machines can be ordered with a mobility kit or install your own h/d casters - what I like even better is using a pallet jack. You will need friendly neighbours if they're close and a flat floor. As for parts and accessories, I had one belt let go on the scoring unit in the 6 years I owned the CF531. You will get the best deal on accessories when you buy them with the machine - keep your eyes open for sales.
As an example for customer service - I ordered an additional table extension for the outfeed side of my planer at 2:30 pm, I picked it up at the courier depot at 3:00 pm the following day, no door to door delivery in the boonies :-(

[Ben Rivel]

I can say the few times I have had a question or needed to replace a small part or order an accessory Hammer has been as fast and great at CS as I would have expected. They have two locations that I know of in the US and Ive dealt only with the one closest to me and its been great. They've been around a long time too, so I wouldnt worry too much about parts replacement nor customer service. Regarding Hammer/Felder.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Brodie,

I have A331 and B3, together the same as C3.
Of course, I wish that I have a 12-inch planer, a 12-inch jointer, a sliding table saw, and a shaper all as separate machines. In this way, they are always ready.
There are surely moments when I say, "oh, boy, I had one more stock to joint!" when the A331 is in the planer mode. I often find myself whipping out a hand planer because of that.

However, being in a shop without enough space (does anybody have enough space in a home shop anyway?), the space-saving factor is huge. Let's face it. During the course of making a furniture, the time each machine spends is not much. Even the most used machine occupies, maybe 20%? I'm not a big router/shaper user and they are like 5%? That means, these machines are just sitting there most of the time in my way of wood working. This is especially so if you are one of the "hybrid" type who would use hand tools frequently. B3/C3 has 0 space penalty for the shaper. A331 has a space requirement smaller than many US-type jointers yet it houses a very capable planer in its belly.

And there are whole different discussions about the quality of these euro machines (with respect now all in Chaiwan US makers) AND the benefit of the sliders.

Obviously, I'm in the euro combo camp and I'm biased but, yes, I like them and can't go back to old days with separate machines.

[clarke edgar]

I went from separates to a Minimax CU300. Life is more complicated, but the space savings is huge. And plan on spending $$$ for shaper bits. You will be disappointed in using router bits on your shaper. Also, reserve a lot of wall space to hang the accessories when not in use (ie. jointer fence, rip fence, outrigger table, J bar, mortiser, shaper fence, small miter gauge, long miter gauge, etc.. I am very happy I made the switch, I could barely walk around the shop, but if I had unlimited space I would go separates.

[mark mcfarlane]

... The shaper on some combos allow a router spindle which would also let me get rid of the router wing on the table saw. ...

I was unpleasantly surprised to find out that a router spindle for one of these Euro combo machines costs as much as a decent quality standalone router table setup.

[Erik Loza]

I was unpleasantly surprised to find out that a router spindle for one of these Euro combo machines costs as much as a decent quality standalone router table setup.

I've sold (and probably will continue to sell) router spindles as an add-on for the CU300 and I've gotten positive feedback from owners but it's still sometimes easier to just take the project to the router table. Even though we had a router spindle for the shop machine (a $30,000 combo!), we also had a router table. Same reason we had a 14" bandsaw in the shop as well as the MM24.

Erik

[Mike Turner]

What about this tool?Is anyone familiar with this tool? I have run across this one in good shape.The owner wants $200 for it and says it is very simple to change from one tool to another.I dont have a jointer and my table saw and drill press are really junk...functional but junk. http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/3204.pdf.

[Brodie Brickey]

I'd like to thank you all for the great feedback. I'm traveling for the a while, but when I'm back I will be checking out some of the machines in person.

From the above and other conversations, combos can work if you plan your processes. Quality is top notch. Allows you to minimize the footprint in your shop (you still need space around the machine).

If I get the combo, I will need:
-The mobility unit
-Probably keep the router but as a station in line with my miter saw against a wall.
-Digital read outs where available.

I'll probably have to completely re-organize my shop layout.:D

Ben: Great to hear that a company provides great customer service. We need more like that.

Mark: You make a good point. Each piece of tooling comes with inherent costs. I haven't worked with shapers yet, but from attending a couple pro level shows various tooling manufacturers will make something for you but at a high cost. If I go Hammer the saw blades are different from the US standard so there will be less providers. Hence a likely higher cost for the blade initially. The blade quality may also be higher. Other manufacturers will likely have similar constraints. All good stuff to look at.

I don't know what it is about shopping for a new tool...it just invigorates.

Thanks again all.

[Andy Giddings]

Brodie, regarding saw blades, existing 10" blades can be reworked to fit the Felder/Hammer line. Most if not all blade manufacturers will sell you a blade for little additional cost compared to the 5/8 bore. I don't see that there is a significant hit on blades by switching, unless you have a large stock of 10" 5/8 bore to be reworked.

[David Nelson1]

How large are your projects and how much room do you have. Myself I would get it for the novelty asperct and the fact that its old. It might not be as good a deal though. Its small so your capacity cant grow much. Looks like a very small 6 in jointer or less. I went back and read a bit moreit's very small but if it fits your space. Keep in mind you will have to use a hand plane to geta parrell surface after the jointer.

Good Luck

[Brodie Brickey]

How large are your projects and how much room do you have. Myself I would get it for the novelty asperct and the fact that its old. It might not be as good a deal though. Its small so your capacity cant grow much. Looks like a very small 6 in jointer or less. I went back and read a bit moreit's very small but if it fits your space. Keep in mind you will have to use a hand plane to geta parrell surface after the jointer.

Good Luck

David:

I have about a single car garage of space. If I use anything other than the bandsaw and lathe, I generally have to open the garage door. With my cabinet saw at the front, I have 12'+ behind the table saw blade. So there is space, but it has to be managed carefully. Those larger items are also often minimally supported which makes the cut dangerous.

Between tool storage, 8" jointer, setting up for outfeed, etc you quickly run out of space (truthfully everyone does). Attached is a rough scale of my layout when everything is working. This doesn't include the lumber rack on the right wall because it is above 4'. I will need rework the flow just to keep myself working in the shop as is. The second image with color shows how I propose to reconfigure my shop to use the combo. I may get rid of the welding rig also, but there are times when you need it for non woodworking projects.


340717 340719

[Frank Martin]

For a single car garage, you may want to look into smaller combos. I have a Minimax CU300 Smart with a 5.5ft slider in a two car garage and not sure you will be able to make it work in a single car garage and have space to work.

By the way, I needed some small parts for my machine, belts, capacitors, etc., and they are in stock. Only thing I came across not in stock so far is the electrical box on the motors. In the end, just used duct tape to fix the existing one. So, not a deal breaker. Having Erik here is a huge plus in my opinion.

[Albert Lee]

Albert[/B]: I haven't worked with a shaper yet, only a router table. In posts on other boards many woodworkers recommend running off an extra length or two in case you make a mistake. Have you found that necessary? I'll take a look at Robland. How easy is it to get parts? How often do you need parts? How were the instructions for setup?


I have worked with a shaper but not a router table...

As for Roblands, I havnt come to a stage where I need parts, but it would be pretty straight forward as I bought it new, Just contact my dealer and they will have it sent over from Belgium. The setup of the machine was done by the technician, pretty straight forward again. just turning bolts and nuts for adjustments.

[Lou Ortiz]

I'm sure the Hammer, Felder or minimax would be worthwhile - i've got Felder, but would probably have been happy with minimax as well. I have the saw/shaper and jointer/planer split. I prefer that set up and it allowed me to put the power lift on the jointer/planer and not sweat it on the saw. As you look at features, i strongly recommend the power lift for the tables as cranking them up and down by hand when you're switching back and forth would be a pain. You'd get the digital display you want as well.

[John Lankers]

I'm sure the Hammer, Felder or minimax would be worthwhile - i've got Felder, but would probably have been happy with minimax as well. I have the saw/shaper and jointer/planer split. I prefer that set up and it allowed me to put the power lift on the jointer/planer and not sweat it on the saw. As you look at features, i strongly recommend the power lift for the tables as cranking them up and down by hand when you're switching back and forth would be a pain. You'd get the digital display you want as well.

You are 100% right, Powerdrive is the way to go but I doubt Felder is offering that on the Hammer machines. There was a thread on this forum about a year ago reg. converting a machine to eliminate cranking the planer table up and down manually between jointer and planer mode which can become tiresome fast. The "digital planer height readout" is an absolute must have, it is 100% accurate and repeatable. I would suggest getting the metric version which is much easier to use than constantly converting decimal fractions.

[Craig Behnke]

Brodie,

I recently downsized my shop and went from separates to a 5in1 combo. I'm just a hobby guy so I wasn't too worried about changeover or workflow to meet deadlines. It saves quite a bit of room and it required very little change to how I do woodworking. What did change was that I do much more planning in advance of working so that I make sure I do all of the procedures at once per machine mode. I still mess up on that, but i'm getting better.

You nailed the more popular manufacturers. When I searched I also found some brands like Rojek, Robland, Laguna.

If you're really really pressed for space, Minimax makes a very compact unit called the C26 Genius. I spoke to a few users that had a lot of good things to say about that machine.

Best of luck on the search.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a Hammer A3-31 and a B3 Winner with the outrigger.

It fits much better in my shop than a 5 function combo, which fit best in square shaped shops (mine is rectangular).

You won't regret buying a Felder/Hammer/MiniMax machine.

Yes you can use router bits in the shaper, however the Euro block heads with HSS knives are less expensive than router bits and the performance is far superior.

You can have your existing blades bored to fit your new machines for less than $20.

I have the scoring saw option on my machine, well worth the money if you saw veneered or laminated products.

Buy the metric height gauges, the machines are metric ( typically 2mm per revolution) so the imperial gauge is some wonky imperial decimal per revolution.

Regards, Rod.

[James Raubenheimer]

For a single car garage, you may want to look into smaller combos. I have a Minimax CU300 Smart with a 5.5ft slider in a two car garage and not sure you will be able to make it work in a single car garage and have space to work.

By the way, I needed some small parts for my machine, belts, capacitors, etc., and they are in stock. Only thing I came across not in stock so far is the electrical box on the motors. In the end, just used duct tape to fix the existing one. So, not a deal breaker. Having Erik here is a huge plus in my opinion.

Hi Frank,

I also own a CU300 Smart but moving it from FL to Oregon the transport Co lost my entire Mortise unit and mobility kit. SCM tell me there have been no replacement parts for more than 5 years - ;(

Sure, it is a 2002 model, but heck, mine is not really different from the later CU-300 models so I am kind of thinking "if the machine can't be serviced after 10 years I may as well go for a different brand".

Looking at a Felder now, maybe the 741 combo or C3-41 Hammer which everyone seems to suggest is not difficult to get replacement parts many years after production.

[Brodie Brickey]

Just to bring everyone up to date, I did get a combo saw. I came across a used Robland X-31 combo for a really reasonable price. As with any used machine, there is still some setup and configuration to be done but I am really enjoying it so far.

A FELDER/Hammer/mini-max would be a better machine but this will meet my needs for the foreseeable future. Thanks to everyone for the advice and information.

[Erik Loza]

...SCM tell me there have been no replacement parts for more than 5 years - ;(...

I am pretty confident that the new CU300 Classic mortising unit and mobility kit will bolt onto the older Smart series. Or if not directly, easy enough to DIY and make work. SCM doesn't have a "cross reference" chart in their database. It's just specific part numbers, so a lot of times, there might be a part that could work for any number of applications but the parts person might not realize that.

Also, I will say this: Regardless of mfr. (I've worked for both Felder and SCM), you will probably have a hard time finding major structural parts (such as mortising units or other cast iron parts) for any machine more than 10 years old. Again, this has nothing to do with the brand. All mfrs. are the same. They only make so many major structural components for this or that machine and once those are gone, they're gone, and life cycle seems to be 8-10 years. Imagine going into a car dealership and saying, "I need an OEM replacement driver's seat for a 2002 Honda Civic". How many major platform changes has that vehicle gone through in the 14 years since you bought it?

FWIW, I saw a Smart mortising unit for sale on the Yahoo Minimax Owner's Group recently. Might be worth joining if you're still in the market.

Erik

[Mike Hollingsworth]

FWIW, I saw a Smart mortising unit for sale on the Yahoo Minimax Owner's Group recently. Might be worth joining if you're still in the market.

Erik

I've never used mine. PM if interested in the unit.

[Erik Loza]

I've never used mine. PM if interested in the unit.

James Raubenheimer, there you go...

Erik

[Bob Cooper]

For those of us with rectangular shops....what's the minimum width a shop needs to accommodate one of these 5 in 1 machines?

[Erik Loza]

For those of us with rectangular shops....what's the minimum width a shop needs to accommodate one of these 5 in 1 machines?

For a Minimax CU300 Classic with the 5.5' sliding table (shortest it's available with), minimum working area would be about 12' x about 16'. But, the machine can be as small as 5'x6' when not in use, so it's pretty rare that anyone can't make one somehow work.

Erik

[Bob Cooper]

Ok. My shop is 15x40 and I have separates today -- 50" unisaw, dj20, 20" planer. But it's a little crowded and could see moving to this one day in the future.

[mark mcfarlane]

For those of us with rectangular shops....what's the minimum width a shop needs to accommodate one of these 5 in 1 machines?

The footprint problem is not from the machine size but rather the size of material you will be working with. Its probably easiest to think of 4 distances using the saw blade as the reference point: in front of the blade, behind the blade, and to the left and right.

If you want to cut 4*8 sheets you need at least 8-9 feet in front of the blade, a foot for the blade, and 8-9 feet behind it. One nice thing about a slider is you never need to stand 'behind' the 8 foot sheet to push it through the blade, you do that from the side, so the slider is actually more compact than a traditional table saw if you need space to rip 4*8 sheets. So that's 19-20 feet minimum in the rip dimension to rip an 8' board/sheet.

If you want to cross cut a 4'*8' sheet you need 7'-8' to the left of the blade and maybe 4 feet to the right.

So now you have an ~ 12'*20' footprint for the table saw/slider - whether it has a jointer/planer or not makes no difference. Again, this is slightly smaller than using a table saw for the same size cuts because you need to stand behind a 4*8 sheet on a traditional table saw, on the slider you stand on the side for all cuts (unless you are cutting something longer than your slider's throw, then you are pushing from behind again just like a regular table saw).

Now consider the jointer/planer. The J/P edge on 12" combo machine is a about 3' to the right of the table saw blade, and you need room to walk around it to feed and catch boards, so say 6' to the right of the blade: you've only added 3' more to the right of the blade from the slider-only configuration.

So we're at an ~ 15*20' footprint for a Saw/Shaper/Jointer/Planer.

Now, if you want to use the mortising attachment, and its on the planer side of the machine, you need to figure out the longest board you need to end mortise. If you want to end mortise an 8' board (unlikely) you'd need about 12-13' feet to the right of the blade but for normal operation the 3' already allocated to walk around the J/P could be enough for most mortising operations, maybe add 1 more foot for comfort.

So we have ~15-16'*20' for the full combo, unless you need to mortice the ends of really long boards, then the 15' side grows proportionally.

I don't really get the 'for rectangular shops' argument. Its all about workflow, aisle space, and square footage. If your shop is rectangular at 25'*1000', a combo machine still works fine. A slider could also would work fine filling up a 2 car garage, with one wall left open for other tools, but you'd be more likely to park a car in occasionally with Jim Becker's kind 2-machine of setup.

Jim Becker's 'opposing separates' setup also make sense for several reasons, e.g. he tucked the offcut side of the saw under a stairway. Instead of having a 4' aisle on 2 sides of a 5-way machine he has an 8' aisle between the saw and J/P, which probably 'feels more spacious' than having one big machine in the middle of in the room, and you can actually use that large aisle to occasionally cross cut/trim an 8' panel, or park a car if its 10 feet, but this comes with the extra expense to buy two separate machines, and separate electrical runs, and separate dust collection runs.

[Bill Adamsen]

Definitely go and check out the machines of the folks that have offered to let you visit. I have a combo and like it very much. But it presents workflow challenges (issues?) for sure. It is also moving you to a completely new realm of machine size. Mine weighs 2700 pounds. That is a big machine in a completely different logistical genre than say ... a DJ8 and Unisaw. Also, you mention the router. Mine has a high speed router spindle that in fact I use often, as well as the shaper. But I use the router table more both because it is easier to setup and also because having the hood/fence on the combo router makes it almost impossible to use the combo saw. Switching between jointer and planer is easy, between router/shaper and slider less so.