Euro Guides vs Ceramic

[Jim OConnor]

About to order a Felder bandsaw. Anyone have any opinions on their new ceramic guides vs their more traditional Euro guides? I do anticipate using the full range of blade sizes (3/8 to 1-1/18) for reshaping and "light" curve cutting.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Jim,

I switched to ceramics for my FB510. My short answer is, I like it better than the Euro type.
I am not sure if the ceramics make the cut better. There are so many factors that seem to affect the cut quality. As many of this forum say, blades have the most impacts. Then tension. Once I learned that high tension solves many problems, my attention level to the guides went down a lot.

Some say, for wide blades (that can be tensioned very high), guides are not necessary and I sort of agree. At least the thrust guide is not needed. I just use it as a gauge to prevent too much pushing; as soon as the blade touches the thrust guide, I ease the pressure. I still feel that the proper adjustment of the side guides make the cut smoother, but I'm not 100% sure.

Having said that, the reason why I like the ceramic is that it is far easier to set up. No moving parts and much less degree of freedom. Just set the fore-aft positions so that they won't touch the gullet and just pinch the blade gently. That's it. Euro guides are more difficult to set up. What particularly bother me was the two side discs are not exactly parallel (they are slightly toe-in) and depending on the setting, they refuse to rotate. After all, they may not matter too much as long as the blade is tensioned well, but ceramics guides certainly makes my life easier.

[Mike Heidrick]

I switched to Laguna ceramic guides on my MM20. I got a deal on them is the only reason why. They are easier to set up but I don't think I needed them at all lol.

[Rich Riddle]

I switched the Agazzani from Euro to ceraminc guides and do like them quite a bit better. The newer Euro guides do have a better quality than the ones that went with the old Agazzani. I the case of the Agazzani, the ceramic guides made a fair bit of difference.

[Davis Young]

Euro guide here. Toolless to adjust and the lateral guides don't even need to be tightened down after setting. Also never quite understood ceramic as a thrust bearing, at least theoretically, since it is a sharpening medium and would hone the back of the blade.

[Erik Loza]

The Euro's have been stock on the MM bandsaws for many years and statistically speaking, most of my owners report being satisfied with them but on the other hand, I have talked to guys who put the "Blue guides" on their saws and seem to be very happy with those, as well. Personally, I have never felt a need for anything other than Euro guides. At least with blades wider than 0.50" but guides are like shoes: Everyone has their own preferences. My advice to owners is don't pay extra up front for something unless you know for a fact that you will need it. You can always add them later, right?

By the way, for folks who do want ceramic guides, you can actually buy them from these folks without the "big name markup"...

http://spaceageceramics.com/

Erik

[Ben Rivel]

When I bought my Hammer N4400 I bought it with the stock Euro guides and then bought the Ceramic guides as an add-on. Ended up being the same price as buying the N4400 pre-fit with the Ceramic guides and I got both.

[Susumu Mori]

I forgot to mention one thing. The ceramic guides from Felder are of good quality, but the installation of the lower guide really tells that they are after thought.
There is not enough space in the lower housing of FB-510 (FB-610 may be different). It is doable but quite a challenge to install them. Once you install and adjust it once, you hardly need to readjust anything (as long as you are using the same blade), but installation and adjustment are DIFFICULT. Please prepare for that.

I agree what Eric said but if you go with FB-510 and there is pre-install option, I would consider it (especially if you can get a discount in this way).
And again, I would reiterate what others said; for the bandsaws of this class, guides are not important and it is really a tough question to answer, "does it really worth $200?"

[Erik Loza]

For you guys who own the ceramics, a question: If you want to use a really thin blade, say 0.25", can you do that with the ceramics still on there? Or do you need to swap them out? On machines with the Euro guides, I find that with any blade less than 0.50", the teeth run into the guides due to the face diameter of the side guides. I have to use a Carter Stabilizer or some DIY coolblocks for the thin blades. Do you need to do this with ceramics? The only experience I have with ceramics was years ago, on a trade-in LT machine that had them. It had a 1" blade. What do you guys do for thin blades?

Erik

[David Kumm]

I run old Wright guides but find the top ones are not really necessary and run without them part of the time. Even my saw with a 1/4" bimetal tensioned to 30,000+ doesn't rely on guides and my 1" trimaster at 30,000+ can resaw 15" without wandering without guides. The saws ability to tension determines how important various guide types are. Get familiar with the saw first or find out how much frame strength it has before deciding on guides. Dave

[Mike Wilkins]

My Laguna LT18 initially came with the Euro guides. But after the thrust bearing got fried and locked up, I needed a change. About the same time this happened, Laguna was offering a special on the ceramic guides with a Resaw King blade, for an attractive price. Installing the guides was straight forward, and easy to adjust. I only use 1" blades on the big guy so I don't move the guides much.

If not for the thrust bearing failure, I would likely still be running the Euro guides.

[Erik Loza]

...If not for the thrust bearing failure, I would likely still be running the Euro guides.

Just an observation, not a judgment: One of the #1 issues I see with saws that come with Euro guides and guys who are just learning to use them, is setting the guides too tightly and frying the bearings. The thrust bearing in particular. For a 1.0" blade on Euro guides, I set the side guides at least a matchbook's thickness away from the blade and with the thrust bearing, so that the guide never touches it during the cut. In other words, it is blade tension that is keeping the blade in place, not the guides. On smaller/lesser machines, I agree that you may need to bring the guides in to touch the blade but that shouldn't be necessary on any of the Euro machines. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[David Kumm]

My LT 18 ( late 90s ) would not tension a 1" blade enough to not use the thrust bearing. One of the reasons I didn't consider it a great resaw. Newer models might be stronger but the old ones did not have the spring or frame strength to get a 1" blade anywhere near 20,000 lbs. I agree that spinning a thrust is hard on blades and not ideal. Dave

[Jim OConnor]

Thank You , very helpful
i did order the 510 with the guides installed. I appreciate your candor, I will now know what to expect.

[Susumu Mori]

There is a really nice video here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK9m5PadmiI
From around 3:00, Mr. Wandel talks about the beam (I believe both blade beam and saw beam) strength.

There are so many variables in bandsaws and there still many mysteries for me, but so far, good tension seemed to solve my past problems well.

I'm using 1-inch Resaw King, which has very thin kerf and doesn't seem to have good blade-beam strength. If I set the tension of FB510 at 1 inch, I can clearly see the blade buckles (the blade angle becomes oblique within a kerf) when I push a bit hard. The blade doesn't buckle when I rip or resaw narrow materials, but for resawing 8 inch and more, that becomes really a problem.

For the Resaw King, I crank the tension almost to the maximum and I just leave it there. Regular-kerf blades may not need that much tension but I don't have much experience with other types yet. Oh, also, resaw king is noisy; thin-blade high-tension performs almost like a violin cord!

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Have and have had both. No preference as they both seem to work well when set up.

I run from 1/4" to 5/8" blades on both my saws currently. One with ceramic one with euro. No issues with narrow blades.