Bathroom Framing questions

[Dan Mages]

I am in the early stages of a bathroom gut and remodel. As I suspected, the toilet must have leaked many years ago, but was never fully repaired by a previous owner. By the time I pulled out the 1.5-2" thick concrete pad that was under the tile, I found the plywood subfloor completely delaminated. The joists are solid 12" full dimension beams and are sound, except for some pock marks along the top from the past water damage and some insects as well. Is there an epoxy or wood filler product I can use to fill in the damaged areas on the top of the joists and provide a solid surface for the new subfloor?

My other surprise was the wet wall behind the double vanity. instead of using 2x6 studs, they used two studs back to back. This is probably a load bearing wall. I might take advantage of this and install a couple of medicine cabinets above the sinks. If I box in an opening for the cabinets, will I need to worry about jack studs and cripple studs, or will the back set of studs be enough to support the wall?

Dan

[Jim Becker]

Dan, on the floor joists, it would likely be easy to sister in some new lumber to provide a flat and stable surface to nail your new subfloor to. They don't have to go full depth if the "damage" to the existing joists is just the top surface. 2x6 would work fine and would give you more than enough surface to fasten them to the sides of the existing joists. Do make sure that you're "bug free" before closing things up... ;)

[Dan Mages]

Dan, on the floor joists, it would likely be easy to sister in some new lumber to provide a flat and stable surface to nail your new subfloor to. They don't have to go full depth if the "damage" to the existing joists is just the top surface. 2x6 would work fine and would give you more than enough surface to fasten them to the sides of the existing joists. Do make sure that you're "bug free" before closing things up... ;)

Thanks, Jim.

The damage is maybe 1/2" deep at best. I can use longer screws (2.5") and be fine with attaching the plywood. I'm also going to add a very liberal amount of liquid nails. Just wondering if there was a product or there that would fill in the voids for a better finished product.

Dan

[Rich Engelhardt]

The damage is maybe 1/2" deep at best. I can use longer screws (2.5") and be fine with attaching the plywood. I'm also going to add a very liberal amount of liquid nails. Just wondering if there was a product or there that would fill in the voids for a better finished product.
Water putty would work, but, in all honesty, +1 to sistering a 2x6. In the end, a 2x6 will probably be faster, better and cheaper.

[Jim Becker]

Even if you drive longer screws into the existing joists, having the sisters...even two by fours...allows you to establish "level" for your new subfloor. When you have a floor open like that in old construction, it's an opportunity to "tune things up"!!

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Water putty would work, but, in all honesty, +1 to sistering a 2x6. In the end, a 2x6 will probably be faster, better and cheaper.

+2 on sistering 2 x 6s. You could use bondo to fill the holes, but it will be easier and quicker to sister a couple of new joists in to get a level surface.

For the built in cabinets, what do you mean by the 2 x 4 are "back to back"? Do you mean that they lined to so you get a double depth stud, e.g. 1.5 x 7? If that is so, it is unlikely it was done for structural reasons. Since you said that this is the wet wall, it most likely done to give enough depth to protect the pipes from screws and nails. All that being said, it is very difficult to judge without seeing the entire structure.

[Robert Engel]

Dan, on the floor joists, it would likely be easy to sister in some new lumber to provide a flat and stable surface to nail your new subfloor to. They don't have to go full depth if the "damage" to the existing joists is just the top surface. 2x6 would work fine and would give you more than enough surface to fasten them to the sides of the existing joists. Do make sure that you're "bug free" before closing things up... ;)Excellent advice. :)

On the cabinets, I would think standard framing technique for a window lintel should suffice (double 2x8 + king posts).

[Tom M King]

If you're not going to cut a stud for the medicine cabinets, there's no need for anything but nailers above and below.

[Erik Loza]

Even if you drive longer screws into the existing joists, having the sisters...even two by fours...allows you to establish "level" for your new subfloor. When you have a floor open like that in old construction, it's an opportunity to "tune things up"!!

This is precisely how they did our downstairs bathroom during the remodel. Subfloor was all rotten as well as portions of a few existing joists. They just siamesed in additional ones. It's rock-solid now. We also specified 1.25" plywood for the subfloor. That made a huge difference as well.

Erik

[Neil Gaskin]

Abatron wood epox is what you should use if you deside to fill the rot. It is structural a structural Epoxy filler. Likely available at a paint store but not a big box store.

With that said provided the damage is not great and very localized sistering short lenghts is likely more practical.

Without knowing what's above bathroom and more information on the double wall nobody can really tell you if the back studs are enough. In all reality a small header is not a big deal or hard if you're going to span more then a stud bay or two.

Is the vanity wall shared with the bathtub at the end? There is a chance that the whole wall was packed out to accomodate a standard Bath tub length if it is laid out that way.

do you have a picture or drawing of the bathroom?

[Dan Mages]

Thanks for the advice. I sistered most of the joists with 2x8s. A little overkill does not hurt anyone. Now most are double or triple joists. I also used Headlok lag screws and adhesive to tie them together. Those Headlok lag screws are impressive! They drove right into those joists with ease.

Here is a picture of the wet wall. As you can see, this is two studs back to back instead of one 2x6.

[Neil Gaskin]

Where is the bathtub in relation to that picture. What's above the room? There are a lot of reasons that wall could be thick.

[Dan Mages]

The tub is on the opposite wall. The garage is below and the attic is above. There is also no sill plate below the outer studs.

[Neil Gaskin]

Opposite wall as in parallel or adjacent/perpendicular ?

I'm going to start by saying that giving advice without seeing the situation first hand or at least having comprehensive house plans is dangerous.

If you look in the attic, are there any supports or braces going from the rafters to the wall in question? I'm guessing the house is stick framed rather than trusses for the roof given the age?

All that said, from what you have described, you can probably maybe safely remove a stud or two of the double wall. Nothing you have said sounds like there is a structural reason for the wall to be doubled up. I have not run into a situation that I can recall where an interior wall was doubled up for strength in a one story house. With an attic above would guess the single wall can hold it.

If you want to make the med cabinet deeper, you can likely also remove a stud or two from both walls and replace them with a header, but for that I would not take advice from the Internet.

[Chris Padilla]

Most support walls SHOULD have a double top-plate but not always. What's at the top of the wall?

I'm sure the reason for the double 2x4 instead of a 2x6 was convenience. They ran out of 2x6s or didn't have any or any other number of reasons that happen on job sites. You almost have a double wall there.

[Chris Padilla]

Dan,

I'm staring at your studs. They don't look like a 1.5" x 3.5" stud to me. What is the age of the house? Can you measure the stud? I'm curious as all get out now.

[Dan Mages]

Dan,

I'm staring at your studs. They don't look like a 1.5" x 3.5" stud to me. What is the age of the house? Can you measure the stud? I'm curious as all get out now.

Here is a picture of the stud with a tape measure... This is just getting weird! The inner set of studs has a sill plate, but there is no top plate on either set of studs! I stuck my tape measure up there and hit the attic insulation. I guess it is nailed to a ceiling joist? Anyway, I will have to block between each set of studs to pass the rough framing inspection.

ETA: The house was built in 1955. Back when Esienhower was president and Rock Hudson was the man amongst men. :rolleyes:

Neil, I am attaching a scale drawing of the room for your reference.

[Jim Becker]

Dan, for a period of time, "Balloon" construction was popular. The 1950s portion of our home (kitchen and above) is like that. There are no plates/stops in most cases. Unlike how things are built today with walls that support a separate deck for what's above, many instances of balloon construction would have 1-by "rim joists" inset into the wall studs at the hight of the next level to provide support for fasteners, etc. I uncovered all of this when I gutted our kitchen in 2003...the one upside, all the wood was really lovely old-growth heart pine and smelled really good!

[Dan Mages]

Baloon framing typically refers to how the floors are tied to exterior walls, IIRC. This is an interior wall. Anyhow. It is what it is and needs to be addressed for passing the inspections.

[Dan Mages]

Yargh!!

There is currently 1 electrical inspector in town right now and he has 1600 open permits. It is going to be a while until I can get it inspected.... The rough plumbing inspection only had a 10 day delay.

[Jim Becker]

Yargh!!

There is currently 1 electrical inspector in town right now and he has 1600 open permits. It is going to be a while until I can get it inspected.... The rough plumbing inspection only had a 10 day delay.
That's ugly. Our township originally used their own folks for this, but have since gone to using a contractor because it helps keep things moving when activity is high and also removes "politics" from the process...

Locally, we actually do not need "electrical inspection" for projects like this. Plumbing, however...is over the top. :)

[Dan Mages]

It looks like I got lucky. A spot was open for the electrical inspector for tomorrow clearing me for a rough framing inspection for Friday. I'll finish the insulation tomorrow after the inspection is passed.

The wet wall is done with a new sill plate and blocking between the two roof rafters at the top of the wall. I framed in the medicine cabinets by cutting out the inside set of studs of the wet wall. I oversized the opening by 1.5" to give me a little extra height if needed.Unfortunately, the medicine cabinets will not be 100% recessed since they were designed for 2x4 walls. I will probably need to add a 1" poplar frame around the opening.

I need to add a layer of 3/8" plywood on top of the subfloor per Schluter's specs for Ditra underlayment. The old subfloor is 1/8" lower than the old subfloor. Should I try to shim it with 1/8" ply, or try a 4" marble thresh hold?

Dan

[Dan Mages]

I need some quick help and advice. This is the result of poor planning and foresight on my behalf. The tub is not in perfect alignment with the drywall, which was hung yesterday. The apron of the tub is also a little out of skew for some reason and not movable to the right spot. What is the cleanest way to finish this transition? I was thinking of trimming back the drywall and inserting a 1/2" square dowel along the edge of the tub. Does anyone have other methods that might work better?

Thanks!

[Dennis Peacock]

Looks like a job for tile and a bullnose end running up past your tub. :)

[Dan Mages]

Looks like a job for tile and a bullnose end running up past your tub. :)

I am considering that as well. Once I start tile on one wall, I will have to do them all to make everything look right. Its also more cost on a house where every penny spent is a penny I will never see back.


Edit to add... maybe I can wrap the tile around the corner and finish it with a vertical line of 2" Bullnose?

[Chris Padilla]

It almost looks like the drywall is bulging out a bit there. Maybe remove it and trim back the stud? I have an old handplane that I use for such situations...actually works very well.

[Neil Gaskin]

Normally a 3 wall alcove tub will be recessed into the alcove a few inches so you can bring tile or the wall surface down along the skirt.

if you can flatten the rock you could overlap the tub an inch or so. If you do that do not adhere the tile to the tub. Just the wall. Caulk the joint with something flexible.

To to flatten the sheet. First why is the rock sticking out? If the framing is out. The best way is to fix it and reinstall the rock. If it really is just a bit out. Beat it back with a hammer.

[John RStegall]

Can you use a "bull-nose" tile? Corian or one of its competitors can be worked with wood working tools. Just a couple of ideas.

[Dan Mages]

Normally a 3 wall alcove tub will be recessed into the alcove a few inches so you can bring tile or the wall surface down along the skirt.

if you can flatten the rock you could overlap the tub an inch or so. If you do that do not adhere the tile to the tub. Just the wall. Caulk the joint with something flexible.

To to flatten the sheet. First why is the rock sticking out? If the framing is out. The best way is to fix it and reinstall the rock. If it really is just a bit out. Beat it back with a hammer.

The old tub was flush with this corner with tile going about 3.5' up the wall, covering the transition.

The cause of the issue is the acrylic tub. The rather flexible apron is bowed out just a touch on the bottom. I tried tapping it in gently with a rubber mallet, but it won't budge. My drywaller trimmed back the drywall and inserted a corner between the tub and the wall to make a decent looking corner. Its not perfect, but better than before. I think I can live with this.

[Stew Hagerty]

I am in the early stages of a bathroom gut and remodel. As I suspected, the toilet must have leaked many years ago, but was never fully repaired by a previous owner. By the time I pulled out the 1.5-2" thick concrete pad that was under the tile, I found the plywood subfloor completely delaminated. The joists are solid 12" full dimension beams and are sound, except for some pock marks along the top from the past water damage and some insects as well. Is there an epoxy or wood filler product I can use to fill in the damaged areas on the top of the joists and provide a solid surface for the new subfloor?

My other surprise was the wet wall behind the double vanity. instead of using 2x6 studs, they used two studs back to back. This is probably a load bearing wall. I might take advantage of this and install a couple of medicine cabinets above the sinks. If I box in an opening for the cabinets, will I need to worry about jack studs and cripple studs, or will the back set of studs be enough to support the wall?

Dan


Dan,

As for your floor, I would use this product. It is made for the exact problem that you have (and worse ones too): https://www.amazon.com/System-Three-Resins-Restoration-24-Ounce/dp/B0015YJIY4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470330775&sr=8-1&keywords=rot+fix

With the wall, it sounds like you hit the deep pocket jackpot. Installing a pre-made medicine cabinet, or take advantage of the extra depth and make one yourself, shouldn't require any cripples. Just a simple boxout is more than enough.

[Chris Padilla]

The old tub was flush with this corner with tile going about 3.5' up the wall, covering the transition.

The cause of the issue is the acrylic tub. The rather flexible apron is bowed out just a touch on the bottom. I tried tapping it in gently with a rubber mallet, but it won't budge. My drywaller trimmed back the drywall and inserted a corner between the tub and the wall to make a decent looking corner. Its not perfect, but better than before. I think I can live with this.A good tiler ought to be able to handle this and have it turn out nice or are you the tiler? :)

[Dan Mages]

A good tiler ought to be able to handle this and have it turn out nice or are you the tiler? :)

I'm the demo, caperpenter, tiler, putz and bottle washer for this project....

[Dan Mages]

As suspected, I have a small issue with the medicine cabinet frame out. Since the wall is 2x3s, the medicine cabinets stick or by about 1/2". I have two options. Notch the offending 2x3 (not load bearing) to make it sit flush with the wall or build a frame to sit on the wall to fill the gap. Thoughts?

And of course, what project would be complete without Murphy's law. One cabinet with be 7/8" to the left of center due to a stud that I could not move due to a vent stack... Damn

Note to self... start in the middle of the opening and work your way out.... and measure twice cut one!! Damn....

And a couple of pictures of the cabinets I bought for the bathroom. They came flat packed for assembly on site. Better quality than anything you will find at the Borg.