Freehand curve cut on a tablesaw?

[Rich Engelhardt]

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,20924478,00.html

Tom Silva's using the table saw to freehand cut @ 57 seconds into the video.

I'd think this is a good way to be force fed a piece of material - - but - - this is TOH & Tom Silva.....:confused::confused:

[Roy Harding]

I wouldn't do it - but my name isn't Tom Silva.

To be fair, I know a few older guys (hell, I'm an "older guy" myself - so the folks I'm thinking about are REALLY old) who have free handed on the table saw all their lives. BUT, they're working on jobsite saws (like Tom in the video), with significantly less HP than my cabinet saw. When I first got into this game, I had a little benchtop table saw and when a piece got bound up (either through the wood closing on the blade after I'd removed the splitter and pawls, or through a mis-aligned fence), the saw didn't have the power to kick back, but simply stopped and tripped the circuit breaker.

All that said - if an old hand like Tom Silva wants to do that, that's fine - but they are leaving the millions of newbies watching their videos open to some major injuries.

[glenn bradley]

Seeing the pros do foolish things is nothing new. Producers allowing it to be broadcast is the crime.

[Dan Masshardt]

Look what he's cutting. It's not like it's 3/4" hardwood.

My biggest concern would be that i'd mess up the cut.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Look what he's cutting. It's not like it's 3/4" hardwood. Yeah - I wondered if it made a difference that he's cutting MDF.

[Richard McComas]

https://youtu.be/1pA06NwGga4

[Martin Wasner]

Pretty much sop for loose stiles most places I've worked. Not my favorite though.

[John Donhowe]

The quality of workmanship on TOH took a nosedive when Norm stepped back and Tom became the first stringer. The best I can say is that Tom represents what you could realistically expect when hiring an average contractor.

[John T Barker]

The tools used in woodworking have specific purposes. The table saw is used for making straight cuts. People will think it okay until they take a board in the face. Many will talk about getting away with it many times, good. I'll use the right tool to do that.

As said above I'm surprised the producers didn't ask legal "Should we be doing this?"

[Matthew Hills]

Yeah - I wondered if it made a difference that he's cutting MDF.

He was cutting the scribed line on the 3/4" poplar used against the floor.

[John Lankers]

There are several tools common on every jobsite that are better suited and much safer.

[Dan Masshardt]

He was cutting the scribed line on the 3/4" poplar used against the floor.

I was thinking it was the really thin wainscoting stuff but I think you are right. Looked really thin on the video.

I vote jig saw or at least circular saw.

[Rich Engelhardt]

He was cutting the scribed line on the 3/4" poplar used against the floor.:o Oops- you're right....I had MDF on the mind since I was looking at different ways to make MDF wainscoting.

[Wayne Lomman]

Doing a scribe cut this way it completely unsafe and unnecessary. Use a jig saw if there is a lot of material to remove. Use a hand electric planer for everything else. Hand electric planers can get into surprisingly tight inside curves.

I consider this forum to be a stronghold of good sense about safety, and I applaud everyone for speaking against this practice. Cheers

[Martin Wasner]

Funny, I think a power plane is crazy dangerous when doing edge work. I've never cared for that method either.

For almost all scribes, I do a shallow climb cut, basically just scoring the face, with a circular saw. Then plunge in and finish the cut at full depth After that I finish it off with a belt sander to get to my line. I typically cut at an angle to make the final sanding easier as well.

It's not my favorite, but I've done this plenty of times on a tablesaw, it's seriously not a big deal. I'd much prefer to do it on a jobsite saw rather than a tablesaw with power.

Back in the day, we had a jig and used to make lazy susans on the table saw. It worked pretty well.

[Marc Burt]

I've seen far more pros do far more dangerous things than I've seen amateurs. Things that make my skin crawl.

[Wayne Lomman]

Marc, I agree that many pros do dangerous things. I have thrown I don't know how many tradesmen off site for blatant safety breaches.

Martin, as far as the electric planer is concerned, they get used for edge work more than anything else. As with any other tool, use it correctly and there is no safety issue. I always set the piece up so that the plane operates flat. Cheers

[Robert Engel]

Haven't watched the video, but what's particularly worrisome are amateurs or newbies going to try doing things the tool wasn't intended for, like this (and hings like John Heinz's recent video on prepping rough stock).

A pro might get away with it, but that doesn't make it right.

Binding up a saw blade is one thing on a contractor saw, something else on a cabinet saw.

[Roy Harding]

Personally, on the job site, I cut the waste with a jig saw, and bring it to the scribe line with a belt sander. I suppose a powered planer would work too, but I don't have one.

If I'm working in my own home, with the shop handy - it'd be the bandsaw.

[Pat Barry]

Relax folks. I think Tom knows exactly what he is doing. Yeah, I do think there should have been a statement though "professional sawyer on a closed course, don't attempt this at home"

[Justin Ludwig]

I use the method in the video. I also use power hand planers, block planes, belt sanders, etc. depends on the scribe and how much material I'm removing. It's never bothered me to freehand stuff. I won't let my help attempt it, but they have the dexterity of a pregnant yak. One of these days I may get hit. I'll be the first to call myself the appropriate adjective.

[Jeff Duncan]

Sometimes in life you have to understand that there are people who know more than you do. Of course it could be dangerous trying that cut if you don't know what your doing, then again many of the things we do everyday are dangerous if you don't know what your doing. Tom can make that cut safely as can many of us, doesn't mean everyone should try it. There are plenty of things I do in the shop that I don't let the help do, simply because they're too dangerous. Some people just have a "feel" for how things work and can perform things that the average person cannot. I don't think I could just hop into an Indy car and drive 180 mph, and I'm smart enough to know it without them having to put warnings on the TV telling me not to try it. Personally I'm not a fan of the "nanny state", where we try to protect everyone from everything that could possibly be dangerous. If you find something too dangerous, don't try it! If your not smart enough to know you can't do it then that's natures way of "thinning the herd":rolleyes: Just don't assume because it scares you, that the rest of us shouldn't get to see it.

that's my vent, and I feel better now;)
JeffD

[Dan Hahr]

I'm gonna go try that just for the fun of it.
Dan

[Brian W Smith]

Don't need to watch the vid.Free handing and TS's show a serious lapse in either judgment or best practices WRT equipment.

I reckon if a tradesman never has to play by OSHA rules it's OK?If your shop isn't insured,then anything goes?

[Simon MacGowen]

Some of you use the label "pro." May I suggest that these more well-known figures are not pros, but just amateurs wrapped in a pro label. I hang around with some full-time furniture makers using both power and hand tools and none of them risk their safety (not all of them own the SawStop). The real pros are woodworkers who do their craft without cutting corners. Using a tablesaw to make that kind of cut is like a surgeon operating on a patient with a kitchen knife rather than a surgical blade. That's no professional behavior.

Simon

[sebastian phillips]

The most important "safety device" is your brain. Don't do anything you don't understand, and plan ahead.
That being said, there are plenty of installers who cut freehand on job-site saws every day. I do, been doing it 30 years, and I can count to ten.
I've even coped chair rail in a pinch with a tablesaw-gives a perfect backcut, quick.
Before you label these practices "dangerous", let me ask you, "who runs a guard on a chainsaw"???
Nobody, that's who. Safety with a chain saw depends on the skill and forethought of the operator. Same with any tool.
I also remove guards on circular saws. Why, because inevitably they hang up when cutting compound bevels like jack rafters or mitered stringers.
I can focus on the cut, and not worry about holding the guard open with the free hand-safer.
The only 3 accidents I know about with circular saws all were on machines with guards. Two had guards that failed when the running saw was set on the floor, and the saw ran up a foot. The other incident involved a carpenter trying to hold the guard open while cutting a small jack rafter-he didn't have a good grip on the saw, and sawed across his off hand.
Think for yourself, think ahead, understand what you are doing, don't imitate anyone without completely understanding.

[Allan Speers]

Some of you use the label "pro." May I suggest that these more well-known figures are not pros, but just amateurs wrapped in a pro label. I hang around with some full-time furniture makers using both power and hand tools and none of them risk their safety (not all of them own the SawStop). The real pros are woodworkers who do their craft without cutting corners. Using a tablesaw to make that kind of cut is like a surgeon operating on a patient with a kitchen knife rather than a surgical blade. That's no professional behavior.

Simon

Well said.

At a minimum, this guy should have mentioned at the beginning of the video how dangerous this can be, and to make very clear that he was cutting thin plywood. Imagine someone trying to replicate that cut on 2" hardwood with internal stresses? OMG....

[peter gagliardi]

Sometimes in life you have to understand that there are people who know more than you do. Of course it could be dangerous trying that cut if you don't know what your doing, then again many of the things we do everyday are dangerous if you don't know what your doing. Tom can make that cut safely as can many of us, doesn't mean everyone should try it. There are plenty of things I do in the shop that I don't let the help do, simply because they're too dangerous. Some people just have a "feel" for how things work and can perform things that the average person cannot. I don't think I could just hop into an Indy car and drive 180 mph, and I'm smart enough to know it without them having to put warnings on the TV telling me not to try it. Personally I'm not a fan of the "nanny state", where we try to protect everyone from everything that could possibly be dangerous. If you find something too dangerous, don't try it! If your not smart enough to know you can't do it then that's natures way of "thinning the herd":rolleyes: Just don't assume because it scares you, that the rest of us shouldn't get to see it.

that's my vent, and I feel better now;)
JeffD

Jeff, I don't see that as a vent at all. One of the best posts I've read. Pretty much how I see it. I haven't watched the video, but from the description, I have probably done literally miles of the same thing.
Just like Martin said- standard operating procedure.
I also rough cope most of my hardwood crown and other moldings onsite freehand with a jobsite tablesaw. It is simply using a tool to a fuller extent than most are comfortable with, or know how to.
Yes, there is another level of danger AND skill to do these right.

[Ben Rivel]

Some of you use the label "pro." May I suggest that these more well-known figures are not pros, but just amateurs wrapped in a pro label. I hang around with some full-time furniture makers using both power and hand tools and none of them risk their safety (not all of them own the SawStop). The real pros are woodworkers who do their craft without cutting corners. Using a tablesaw to make that kind of cut is like a surgeon operating on a patient with a kitchen knife rather than a surgical blade. That's no professional behavior.

Simon
Exactly! I always get a kick out of seeing the term "Pro" used in various industries. Worse than that people will believe and accept anything they see on TV. What I find even more funny is when companies try to promote what are obviously far from "Pros" and claim they are such because they use their product. Sawstop is one in particular that is terrible at this. They take any yahoo with a camera and a Youtube channel using a Sawstop and call them a Pro or Master on their Facebook page.

[Pete Janke]

I saw Tom do it and yelled out loud to my wife how unsafe (for me) it was. I'm a fan of Today's Homeowner. On one show I saw a film clip of a homeowner, an average guy with a low cost contractor table saw, who was featured in that week's show. He was cross cutting a thin long board with the cutoff piece wedged between the blade and fence, inviting kick back. The hosts were complimenting him for his DIY skills. The show was using this clip in promos. I'm no Norm, but I sent an email to the show's website explaining what I saw. To their credit, the producer replied the next day. He acknowledged the problem, admitted it was very unsafe, and stopped using it the clip. This guy was no Tom Silva.

[Rick Fisher]

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Cuba%202014/P1060402_zps1210a162.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Cuba%202014/P1060402_zps1210a162.jpg.html)


I took this picture in Havana a few years ago .. it seemed unsafe

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Cuba%202014/P1060403_zpsfa05738c.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Cuba%202014/P1060403_zpsfa05738c.jpg.html)

[Martin Wasner]

It's funny what freaks some people out, but doesn't bother others. I really dislike the power plane, Wayne has no problems with it.

Most of the guys on here that make a living with their tools that have commented on here have all said the same thing, sure it's advanced, but not a big deal.

I enjoy watching Frank Howarth's videos on YouTube, he's a very creative dude, and he does some neat projects, but watching him use most tools makes me sweat. He pauses when pushing things through a jointer or tablesaw constantly. It freaks me out. And uses a very slow feed rate. *shudder* The other thing he does is regularly run the fence to the left of the blade on that 72 tablesaw. I hate doing that myself, he seems right at home doing it for whatever reason.

[Frank Pratt]

Some of you use the label "pro." May I suggest that these more well-known figures are not pros, but just amateurs wrapped in a pro label. I hang around with some full-time furniture makers using both power and hand tools and none of them risk their safety (not all of them own the SawStop). The real pros are woodworkers who do their craft without cutting corners. Using a tablesaw to make that kind of cut is like a surgeon operating on a patient with a kitchen knife rather than a surgical blade. That's no professional behavior.

Simon

I agree that the vast majority of personalities on the woodworking/home improvement/DIY are not what I would call professional. But I have been in and around construction all my working life & I can tell you that Tom Silva is a professional in every sense of the word. To say otherwise indicates that you either haven't closely watched the way he works a job, or that you don't know much about construction. Remember, he is a carpenter, not a fine furniture maker.

Just because you or I wouldn't do a task a certain way doesn't mean that it's unsafe for him to do it.

[Jerome Stanek]

I agree that the vast majority of personalities on the woodworking/home improvement/DIY are not what I would call professional. But I have been in and around construction all my working life & I can tell you that Tom Silva is a professional in every sense of the word. To say otherwise indicates that you either haven't closely watched the way he works a job, or that you don't know much about construction. Remember, he is a carpenter, not a fine furniture maker.

Just because you or I wouldn't do a task a certain way doesn't mean that it's unsafe for him to do it.

What most are saying is that to show it on TV that the average homeowner watches and thinks that is a good way to do that

[Simon MacGowen]

Tom Silva is a professional in every sense of the word. To say otherwise indicates that you either haven't closely watched the way he works a job, or that you don't know much about construction. Remember, he is a carpenter, not a fine furniture maker.

Just because you or I wouldn't do a task a certain way doesn't mean that it's unsafe for him to do it.

In my book, he is no professional. Are you kidding? That's how you differentiate between a carpenter and a furniture maker. Yes, I am a furniture maker but i am also a carpenter and my work is a mix of both. This is the first time I heard that when a guy did an unsafe cut, he was then a carpenter.

Unsafe is unsafe. Sam Maloof freehand bandsawed stuff with the bandsaw guard up. Was it safe then? No. He himself said it wasn't safe and told people so.

You may believe what you want but in shop safety, wrong is wrong. Period.

Simon

[Frank Pratt]

In my book, he is no professional. Are you kidding? That's how you differentiate between a carpenter and a furniture maker. Yes, I am a furniture maker but i am also a carpenter and my work is a mix of both. This is the first time I heard that when a guy did an unsafe cut, he was then a carpenter.

Unsafe is unsafe. Sam Maloof freehand bandsawed stuff with the bandsaw guard up. Was it safe then? No. He himself said it wasn't safe and told people so.

You may believe what you want but in shop safety, wrong is wrong. Period.

Simon


I do agree that they shouldn't be showing stuff like that, which will be taken as an example by less skilled people.

[Dan Hahr]

[QUOTE= Using a tablesaw to make that kind of cut is like a surgeon operating on a patient with a kitchen knife rather than a surgical blade. That's no professional behavior.

Simon[/QUOTE]

In my book, it's more like a surgeon operating with scalpel rather than a robotic laser. Both take skill and if you needed the one with the scalpel, you wouldn't be whining that he didn't use a laser. Some folks can and do. Some folks can't and should not.

In this day and time, there are millions of opinions available on the internet to teach you how to do almost anything. Many of these things are not safe. It's a good thing people still have the right to make up their own mind and the "internet police" have no authority.

Dan

[Justin Ludwig]

The other thing he does is regularly run the fence to the left of the blade on that 72 tablesaw. I hate doing that myself, he seems right at home doing it for whatever reason.

I'll build a jig before putting the fence on the left side of the blade. I'm just not comfortable with it over there. I liken it to trying to sign my name left-handed. Most the time I'll just pull out the track saw if I can't accomplish what I need when the fence to the right.

[Rich Engelhardt]

In this day and time, there are millions of opinions available on the internet to teach you how to do almost anything. Many of these things are not safe. It's a good thing people still have the right to make up their own mind and the "internet police" have no authority.Isn't this the same thing Carlos Osorio was doing that cost Ryobi $1.5 million?

[Pat Barry]

In my book, he is no professional. Are you kidding? That's how you differentiate between a carpenter and a furniture maker.
Tom Silva IS a pro and I don't think furniture maker is a higher class professional than carpenter.

[Mel Fulks]

Tom Silva IS a pro and I don't think furniture maker is a higher class professional than carpenter.
No one in trade work is a "professional", that is an unfortunate corruption of a word with a specific use. And,Pat , you engineers should not give up that title .....I might accuse YOU of "engineer bashing" !!!

[Martin Wasner]

Mel, I don't follow.


Full Definition of professional
1
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b : engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

[mreza Salav]

I don't see how being a "pro" makes doing a dangerous operation Ok. Sure, a guy who does rope walking is better at it than me but it doesn't make it a safe operation (less chance of falling than average person but still a hugely dangerous operation).
You only need to talk to people in hospitals that deal with injured people to realize being a pro of 30 or 40-years doesn't make the operation Ok to do.
We are all part of the statistics. If you have done it for 40 years and nothing bad hasn't happened to you doesn't mean you are in control. It only means you have been lucky all those years.
I have a close friend who is specialist in occupational health and he will tell you how many people have their luck run out eventually.

[michael langman]

I'm sure Tom Silva has done that cut many times before; and the fact that he is cutting a large piece of plywood, removing a small outer section makes it not as dangerous as it seems.
He could stall that small saw, with that large piece of plywood without hurting himself .
He has been cutting wood since he was a small boy, and is no dummy around machines.
TOH probably puts out warnings for home owners doing things themselves, and taking precautions.

[Ken Combs]

I'm sure Tom Silva has done that cut many times before; and the fact that he is cutting a large piece of plywood, removing a small outer section makes it not as dangerous as it seems.
He could stall that small saw, with that large piece of plywood without hurting himself .
He has been cutting wood since he was a small boy, and is no dummy around machines.
TOH probably puts out warnings for home owners doing things themselves, and taking precautions.

And that is the key element! I would never try that with a 4/4 oak workpiece on a 3hp table saw, but have done it many times with thin pine or plywood on a low powered saw.

understanding your machine and your own abilities is key. Don't do anything that you don't feel safe and/or confident in doing.

Makes no difference what someone else may or may not do -- It's not their fingers!

[Prashun Patel]

Anyone can do whatever they please with their own fingers. However, TOH and AskTOH are instructional and informational. The audience is largely novices who trust the advice given and implicitly the techniques shown. Kickback is not an obvious thing. It does not seem a big leap for a viewer to infer that a fence is not necessary on any kind of cut or size of wood. For that reason, TOH and Tom Silva should take a higher road on this.

[Mel Fulks]

Martin, all of those are valid in helping to put what someone has said or written into a reasonable context. But real professions are controlled by scholars who under scientific standards and ethical standards constantly under review are empowered by law to give and revoke liscences. If one has a daughter who "is engaged to be married to a professional",they are going to be shocked if she marries a plumber. A professional acts on not just what will work now,but on what will continue to work for a time ethically acceptable. For those of us who are old and have always expected the written word to be generally more accurate than conversation ,it's a leap to READ even in conversational forums what seems to be wrong. I will add one example, the word " replica" was coined two hundred years ago to indicate a copy MADE BY THE PERSON WHO MADE THE ORIGINAL. Because it sounds more highfalutin it is heard, or read, in commercials every day. If I'm buying a Rembrandt replica....I'm going to be really irritated if the image is a plastic decal.

[Martin Wasner]

Crap, I always thought I was a professional cabinet maker and it turns out I have no profession. That's a bummer. Can I cling to the entrepreneur title as well, or do I need to pitch it?

Merriam-Webster's is going to be upset they are wrong as well. I don't have a copy of Black's handy, somebody might need to also alert them.

[Mel Fulks]

Martin, as "The Godfather" would say "you are a serious man". Just describe yourself as a cabinet maker who takes his work seriously and has the ethics and standards of a professional. It's more accurate, and more impressive, and ,I'm guessing truthful. Buy yourself an Oxford English Dictionary and throw away that $1.00 paperback. As an employee I've been criticized a few times for not agreeing to some BS story about some mistake. It's ok ,they learned that I stand by my designs and work and don't lie to cover their incompetence .

[jim mills]

It's not the cut that bothers me, its the fact that Tom Silva has jumped on the "nail gun & chop saw show" bandwagon. What a worthless, crappy project...made with worthless,crappy materials, to get consumers to go to the big box and buy a cheap chop saw, jobsite saw, and pancake compressor/nail gun combo, some WORTHLESS mdf, and some crappy case hardened reactionary poplar. 'bet he's laughing all the way to the bank.
Can you imagine what that wainscoting looks like close up? How do you suppose that crap will look like in about a year...and in a bathroom to boot! BARF!

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, as "The Godfather" would say "you are a serious man". Just describe yourself as a cabinet maker who takes his work seriously and has the ethics and standards of a professional. It's more accurate, and more impressive, and ,I'm guessing truthful. Buy yourself an Oxford English Dictionary and throw away that $1.00 paperback. As an employee I've been criticized a few times for not agreeing to some BS story about some mistake. It's ok ,they learned that I stand by my designs and work and don't lie to cover their incompetence .

I kind of understand your philosophy, and it just hit me. There are no amateur doctors, you wouldn't use the prefix professional doctor. Though I have done amateur surgery on myself...

My gripe is that it's a bit condescending. If you have a profession, and do it for a living, you are a professional at that. Now, being unprofessional to me doesn't make you no longer a professional at your profession. If I behaved in a professional manner at all times, I'd be signing up for baldness and heart disease. You may be a crap professional, but I don't think that changes anything.

[Mel Fulks]

Being unprofessional when working in a "true profession" CAN make one "no longer a professional". That's what the government sanctioned "professional" control is all about. I'm on the East coast which is the most traditional (or stodgy) part of the country. I KNOW that here a medical doctor ,et al might find "professional cabinet maker" at least provential if not bumpkinish. We have a lot of professionals here ,might be interesting in a new thread for them to tell us what they think of tradesmen useing "professional " in advertising and such.

[Justin Ludwig]

But real professions are controlled by scholars who under scientific standards and ethical standards constantly under review are empowered by law to give and revoke liscences. If one has a daughter who "is engaged to be married to a professional",they are going to be shocked if she marries a plumber. A professional acts on not just what will work now,but on what will continue to work for a time ethically acceptable. For those of us who are old and have always expected the written word to be generally more accurate than conversation ,it's a leap to READ even in conversational forums what seems to be wrong.

That is probably one of the most invalid and asinine arguments I've ever read.

[Prashun Patel]

"I KNOW that here a medical doctor ,et al might find "professional cabinet maker" at least provential if not bumpkinish"

I take exception to this statement. I live in the Northeast, and know many medical doctors as friends. Not one has this impression. They may be thankful that their 'profession' pays way better (for now) than theirs, but they admire skill, honesty, and efficiency, and consistency in the people they hire just as we do when we visit the doctor.

[Martin Wasner]

Glad to see I'm not crazy and the only one who thinks it's a bizarre philosophy.

[Mel Fulks]

That is probably one of the most invalid and asinine arguments I've ever read.
And that admirable enthusiasm does not make an argument that a lawyer would make or a judge would allow.

[Simon MacGowen]

Tom Silva IS a pro and I don't think furniture maker is a higher class professional than carpenter.

I didn't say furniture makers are in a higher class; I do both kinds of woodworking: furniture making and carpentry. The "Tom is not a pro" refers to his unprofessional sawcut.

I still maintain that cutting corners like that is not a behavior I would expect from a woodworker or carpenter doing his or her craft in a professional manner, especially when the viewers are the general TV audiences.

Simon

[sebastian phillips]

Tom Silva not a "professional" LOL
Is he turning out quality work????Check
Is he doing it in an efficient way????Check
Is he making a decent living????More Than Likely

If the idea of that freehand cut on a (job site) table scares or offends you in any way:
1-never operate a chainsaw
2-never, and I mean never, drive an automobile under any circumstances, let alone during rush hour traffic on a crowded freeway

[Brian W Smith]

Since ...dbl post

[Brian W Smith]

Since above post is about driving?

What keeps me from doing stand up wheelies going down a highway on my sportbike?

It's a responsibility issue,that's why.So because some TV builder guy "gets away with" a dumb move under the guise of being a pro,still doesn't cut it in my book responsibility wise.But hey,he's the celeb?

[Clint Baxter]

Martin, all of those are valid in helping to put what someone has said or written into a reasonable context. But real professions are controlled by scholars who under scientific standards and ethical standards constantly under review are empowered by law to give and revoke liscences. If one has a daughter who "is engaged to be married to a professional",they are going to be shocked if she marries a plumber. A professional acts on not just what will work now,but on what will continue to work for a time ethically acceptable. For those of us who are old and have always expected the written word to be generally more accurate than conversation ,it's a leap to READ even in conversational forums what seems to be wrong. I will add one example, the word " replica" was coined two hundred years ago to indicate a copy MADE BY THE PERSON WHO MADE THE ORIGINAL. Because it sounds more highfalutin it is heard, or read, in commercials every day. If I'm buying a Rembrandt replica....I'm going to be really irritated if the image is a plastic decal.

Gee Mel, the last time I checked, plumbers and electricians, lowly tradespeople as it may be, are required to have licenses. They have to certify through testing and experience before they can get that license. And that license can be revoked if they don't maintain the standards that their profession requires.

I have always thought of them as professionals. And I'll continue to consider them as such because without them you, I and everybody else may no longer have any safe places in which to live or work.

Clint, aka non-professional plumber

[Martin Wasner]

What keeps me from doing stand up wheelies going down a highway on my sportbike?


ahh, the answer to that should be, nothing.

I miss having a bike...

[Simon MacGowen]

Tom Silva not a "professional" LOL
Is he turning out quality work????Check
Is he doing it in an efficient way????Check
Is he making a decent living????More Than Likely

If the idea of that freehand cut on a (job site) table scares or offends you in any way:
1-never operate a chainsaw
2-never, and I mean never, drive an automobile under any circumstances, let alone during rush hour traffic on a crowded freeway

1 I will use a chainsaw with a fence next time (that's the correct way, based on your logic)
2 I will drive under all circumstances even if I am drunk or am not wearing a seatbelt or am dead tired after working a 12-hour shift two days in a row (that's ok, based on your logic).

The practice of safety assessment, thanks to your logic/reasoning, has just undergone a big leap.

Simon

[John Lankers]

IMO a TV host should be held to the same high standards as a shop class teacher, they both want to educate their audience. A lot of people watch these kind of shows to learn how to do things the right way and I know for a fact if a teacher would demonstrate this kind of cut in front of his class he would be in big trouble.
That doesn't mean I always play by the rules, I've done stupid things in the shop (or elsewhere) but at least no one was there to film me doing so.
In no way am I suggesting Tom Silva is a non professional, his work is outstanding and tenfold better than mine.
My 2 cts.

[Chris Parks]

A bit off topic but what is the large yellow digital controller on the drop saw at 1:24?

[Rich Engelhardt]

That yellow thing is a ditial tape measure/stop block.(sit down when you look @ the price though)

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2010/01/07/sawgear-automatic-length-measuring-for-your-miter-saw (http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2010/01/07/sawgear-automatic-length-measuring-for-your-miter-saw)

[Brian W Smith]

Martin Wasner...I'm smiling ��.

I think the term is "scratcher"....we live minutes from the BRP.Imagine custom Vansons,grapefruit sized cahoonas,focus that completely eliminates any notion of fear?We build suspensions in-house from the ground up.Speed means nothing,control on the othe hand is everything.Surfing pavement,we invented it.Still one of the things that makes life on this rock worth living.Drifting through mnt passes,alone,no one around.Spending literally hours,in the zone.I took off one whole year and dedicated it to exploring the limits of traction.I was going through a set of DOT racing spec tyres in less than a w/end.

Dang,what's that old saying about the older I get the faster...?I can unequivocally say BS.Cheers,BW.

[John Blazy]

threads like this reveal who the professionals are out there vs the hobbyists. Any cabinetmaker, finish carpenter, etc knows this is done CONSTANTLY on jobsites and shops all over. For those that have been using the tablesaw EVERY DAY for over 20 years are safe freehand cutting to a scribe line. Hobbyists that use the T-saw a few hours a week since buying it last year - very different comfort level - very understandable. We pros also know not to freehand a scribe line that is in the middle of of a thick plank, foam, lexan, or other sheets that are notorious for binding. Edge of 3/4" poplar? Easy peasy.

No one is really right or wrong here - its all situational. Maybe since ATOH is targeting DIYer's, then it might be wrong.

[Jerome Stanek]

threads like this reveal who the professionals are out there vs the hobbyists. Any cabinetmaker, finish carpenter, etc knows this is done CONSTANTLY on jobsites and shops all over. For those that have been using the tablesaw EVERY DAY for over 20 years are safe freehand cutting to a scribe line. Hobbyists that use the T-saw a few hours a week since buying it last year - very different comfort level - very understandable. We pros also know not to freehand a scribe line that is in the middle of of a thick plank, foam, lexan, or other sheets that are notorious for binding. Edge of 3/4" poplar? Easy peasy.

No one is really right or wrong here - its all situational. Maybe since ATOH is targeting DIYer's, then it might be wrong.

I have been using a table saw for over 40 years and still would not try to freehand cut

[John Blazy]

Hey Jerome - I see your from Medina. Stop buy for a beer sometime - I'm in Parma. This thread seems like it could be a pissing match, but hopefully all in good spirits. Like I said - its what you are comfortable with. Ive been using T-saws professionally since about 1986, so I guess i'm ten years short of your experience, but then again, I have over 100 stitches in my hands from separate T-saw cuts - not proud of it, but they weren't from free handing. I do a lot more "dangerous" procedures on the T-saw, because I am so familiar with what I can get away with, but wouldn't dare mention them here.

[Prashun Patel]

One might argue that a pro can get away with a lot of things that are not advisable for other pros or novices. I deal with chemicals in my line of work, and I think the day-in day-out familiarity with the lion gives me an arguably false sense of confidence that he will never bite my head as I place it yet again in his mouth.

[Allan Speers]

One should also note that the video in question was not made for pros. It was SPECIFICALLY made, and targeted to, hobbyists and homeowners.

It is thus inexcusably negligent, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

[Pat Barry]

One should also note that the video in question was not made for pros. It was SPECIFICALLY made, and targeted to, hobbyists and homeowners.

It is thus inexcusably negligent, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.
I don't know about that. There are lots of video's out there on all sorts of topics. Have we become so stupid that we can't do without a legal disclaimer on everything that someone else thinks is possibly dangerous? I hope we can all decide for ourselves on things like this so that we don't become needlessly fearful or needlessly dependent on some government agency in order to make decisions on our own.

[Rich Riddle]

Well it isn't the safest way to make a cut, but I also wouldn't put MDF anywhere, especially areas prone to water. Joints left a lot to be desired. It almost qualifies as a hack job.

[Allan Speers]

I don't know about that. There are lots of video's out there on all sorts of topics. Have we become so stupid that we can't do without a legal disclaimer on everything that someone else thinks is possibly dangerous? I hope we can all decide for ourselves on things like this so that we don't become needlessly fearful or needlessly dependent on some government agency in order to make decisions on our own.

Say, I'm going to make a Yoo-Toob video on how to construct a small, personal nuclear device. I sure hope that darned government doesn't make me take it down. Darned government, always telling me what I can't do .......

It's completely safe if you know all the tricks & potential pitfalls, I swear! (But I won't mention those tricks & pitfalls in the video, as I don't want to insult my viewers.)

[Martin Wasner]

Ahh the extremes argument. Always a winner.

[Prashun Patel]

"...decide for ourselves..."

With the possible exception of table saw kickback. It is not intuitive for novice users who may wish to remodel their own home after watching some show.

It is not inherently obvious that free hand cutting the edge of a thicker piece may be safer than flimsy plywood. It is not intuitively obvious that even light materials can develop serious enough force to cause injury or to scare you so bad that your hand slips into an unguarded blade.

I am trying to see this through the eyes of my daughter not my mentors at smc.

[Joe Kieve]

I have cut curves on a table saw...but they were unintentional and usually ended up hitting me in the belly!

[John Blazy]

It is not inherently obvious that free hand cutting the edge of a thicker piece may be safer than flimsy plywood. It is not intuitively obvious that even light materials can develop serious enough force to cause injury or to scare you so bad that your hand slips into an unguarded blade.


I think you nailed the issue. If I hadn't seen what Tom was cutting, and how he cut it, but only heard that he "freehand cut on the Tsaw", then I think I would be part of the crowd that says that freehand cutting is always bad - never try it. However, he was NOT cutting down the middle of a badly honeycombed 2 x 10 in which the internal stress will bind and kick back. Nor was he cutting along a scribe line down the MIDDLE of plywood, etc, which is asking for kickback. He was edge cutting. I do that routinely on crooked rough sawn prior to jointing, becuase I'd have to set the jointer to 1/4" depth and run ten passes just to get it semi straight, so I often snap a line and free hand to the line, then flip that edge against the fence to parallel it. Did that alot before I had the $ for Jointer.

So I think folks really need to judge this specific type of cut, not the general, all encompassing "Freehanding". I have often shown new workers of mine (with minimal tsaw experience) how to free hand on my T-saw for simple edge straightening, as long as they are not taking off more than 1/2".