European window frame

[Susumu Mori]

Hi all,

I just came back from Europe visiting Switzerland and Italy. I have seen in Youtube about how to create European window frames using shapers, which look overly complicated with so many processes and so many different profiles, wondering what is all about it.

But then, in Europe, I was totally impressed. It has nice and beefy hardware that works smoothly. The whole system is tight but smooth. They look and feel nice too. And they are everywhere, small cottages to large hotels. Obviously they should have good insulation, judging from the fact that they are used in houses in high altitudes in Switzerland.

Coming back to US, I'm looking at those windows in my house with vinyl shells (I believe they have wood cores, but not sure) that hesitate to slide smoothly.

Well, of course, the type of the windows are different. Europeans are swing-open, while US's are sliding, but I can't help wondering why these nice European windows are not used widely here....

Any thought?

By the way, I'm originally from Japan, where the traditional windows are wooden slider (move horizontal, not vertical like US), but modern houses have aluminum frames for windows. Interesting.

[John TenEyck]

You can buy them here. Here's a CO company that makes them: http://www.zolawindows.com/?gclid=CJfUy9Ho5M0CFQEmhgodzGMMCg I'm sure there are others.

Why don't many people have them here? My guess is price and the cost of energy. Americans change houses a lot more often than Europeans. Europeans tend to have a longer view than us and also place a higher value on quality. How much did a Lt of Benzine cost in Switzerland? I'll bet it was North of the equivalent of $6/gal. Same thing for most energy sources over there. So the payback in energy savings is much faster over there than here. Those windows would never payback in the time most people here live in a house.

On the other hand, those windows and doors are very nice, having a lot more functionality than ours. But most of the them pivot or tilt inward, ours all go up down, left/right, or pivot out, which makes installing screens much easier. I never saw a screen in a window in Europe. But I have seen a lot of flies in some peoples houses. Why they put up with that is unknown to me.

John

[Peter Kelly]

Euro Clime has some pretty nice Austrian-made ones for sale in North America as well: http://www.euroclime.com/klassik-wood-6822.html

Generally I'm not wild about windows opening into living spaces, especially if there are a lot of them in a long row as on my house. Not bad to keep the casements out of the weather so I guess there's a trade-off.

I've seen screens on these in Germany but they have to be mounted from the outside which would be a super PITA on the upper floors of a house. Not something I'm real into either.

[Brad Shipton]

I think cost would be the main reason. I would love a complete set of tilt-turn windows and doors built by Joe Calhoon, but having seen some of the houses they go into, I am sure I cannot afford them. Europeans still seem to use a lot of wood, but in North America it is all about low maintenance.

Rangate (Greg) has some nice info on the different window types. http://rangate.com/knowledge/windows/whats-my-window Rangate and Joe put on Alpine Courses at different times and I have always wanted to go learn more myself.

[Wayne Lomman]

Susumu, in Australia, most modern houses have aluminium horizontal sliders. Older houses generally had wooden vertical sliders. Very old houses had casements with the sashes opening outwards. However, for the house I am finishing now I built about 30 pairs of casement windows and french doors. All the frames and sashes are cedar about 3" thick to accommodate double glazed panels. The construction was simple mortise and tenon with rebates where necessary. The amount of work was relentless and the timber cost quite high but it is a renovation of a heritage building and nothing else would have looked right. Interestingly, the sash locks are Canadian manufacture so I assumed casement windows were common in North America. Cheers

[Susumu Mori]

Thank you all for the information.
I thought their windows were mighty nice, but what you pointed out make sense; they need more beefy (and expensive) frames due to their high energy costs, just like their cars are much more cost efficient with more sophisticated (and smaller) engines. It is also true that they didn't have screens. I wonder how they deal with bugs....

[John Vernier]

My understanding is that the use of casements vs. sash windows was traditionally based on climate and rainfall. Sashes are better at keeping rain out, casements open more completely for better ventilation. Outward-opening casements can be arranged to catch or deflect wind flow. When I was working on craftsman-era houses in southern California I saw that one popular arrangement was inward-opening casements with outward-opening screen casements. Greene and Greene used this set up a lot. Makes the windows very easy to clean but yes, you have to deal with those casements opening into your living space.

[John TenEyck]

I think Euro windows are beefy primarily because of the space requirements for the hardware that allows them to both tilt and pivot, and because you need a greater cross-section to resist racking when the window is supported only at two points. US casement windows are less beefy because they don't need as complex hardware, but they still are beefier than double hung sashes which just move up/down or left/right. I don't think energy costs have anything to do with it. Two panes of glass is two panes of glass no matter the frame, and the glass dominates how much heat escapes. Yes, casements seal better than double hung windows, especially against wind pressure, but most of the heat loss is through the glass.

European car engines may be slightly more sophisticated than those built elsewhere, but that's driven not by the need for higher mileage, but government penalties (in Germany at least) on engines 2L and larger. Because of that the auto companies have focused a lot of attention on 2L engines and how to get high horsepower out of them so they can perform like a larger engine. But if you compare cars of similar size, and engine type and size, they all have pretty similar mpg's whether built in Europe, Japan, Korea, or the US. What you do see in Europe is a much higher percentage of small cars and that's driven by the cost of fuel. Small cars with small engines get higher mpg's, simple as that, and even a 10% higher fuel economy quickly adds up when fuel costs $6+/gallon.

Diesels dominate in Europe not because of the higher fuel economy, although that's very true, VW cheating aside, but again because the German government and others, I believe, tax it less than they tax gasoline. Even then you will only save money if you drive enough miles per year for enough years for the fuel cost savings to overcome the added cost of the diesel engine which is typically $3 - 4K. In the US it's pretty much a non-starter because diesel fuel costs at least as much and generally more than gasoline. Any cost savings is marginal even when the gasoline and diesel cars are priced equally as VW and BMW have tried.

John

[Frank Drew]

I agree with a lot of what John TenEyck said: Europeans tend to be much more conservative with energy than we are and their housing construction (and even appliances) reflect that frugality. Even many years ago double and even triple glazing was used in northern countries, and windows in most current construction are usually highly efficient.

[Joe Calhoon]

The building industry in Europe is totally different than here. Houses are not looked at like an investment with profits to be made when selling. Most Europeans even the middle class (for lack of a better term) put a lot into their homes. They are smaller than what you typically see here. The house my grandmother was born in is still in the family and has been for 300 years. It is in Northern Italy, stone construction and has been tastefully remodeled over the years. My cousin in the same area had a small window shop and just retired a year ago. Unfortunately his sons did not want to take over the business that had been in the family for several generations.

In Europe vinyl and alu windows are increasing but wood is still the norm. In the US the big window producers have done a good job of providing inexpensive windows. Not terrible quality but still throwaway products like a lot of our building materials. For the few producers of Euro windows in the US it is still a speciality high-end market. The European shops enjoy inexpensive availability of products geared for the window industry, IGU, hardware scantlings, cladding etc. Most shops there have been in the family for several generations have a skilled workforce and the real estate long paid for. And yes, energy is expensive there so they are way ahead in this also.

The frames are thick because most go in masonry construction. No nail fins there and most windows are placed center of wall for for better visual and energy efficiency. The frames and the sash are getting thicker to handle triple pane IGU but at the same time are narrower in section to be more energy efficient. Wood is the weak part of the energy values. Screens are no problem with these. You just do not see screens in most parts of Europe. We use wood framed screens on the outside sometimes. The low cost solution is to use aluminum-framed screens to the outside. The best solution are roll up screens.

Inswing tilt and turn is most common in mid Europe but as you go north and to the costal areas Danish style outswing, side swing and canopy are more the norm. These are popular in the UK also.

Here are some not so great quality videos of euro window construction from our shop. Go below the ski stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ2uLjJUruopJHaNcpQwrCQ?feature=watch

Here is a wood framed screen on my house.
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Behind the door are some tilt turn frames with roll up screens.
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