Curved Wainscot

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

My name is Alfred Spitzer, anyone responding may email me at accents.wood@prodigy.net. I am working on a project that require curved wainscot panels. I have made curved doors before, but do not have the time or budget to build solid wood curved wainscot. Does anyone know of a process or supplier that might help me?

[Ted Shrader]

Alfred -

Welcome to the Creek. A great place to hang out an exchange ideas.

By curved wainscot, I assumed the bow is outward, not simply scalloped on top. Or is it to follow a curved wall? Either way, would bendable plywood work? One could attach ribs to the wall cut to the appropriate profile, then laminate the bendable plywood over that. The top cap - chair rail - would be a separately constructed piece.

Regards,
Ted

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Ted,
Thank you for your promt response. I am in some what of a time constraint, in that I was asked to provide a quote by next week. Yes you are correct the panels are to be installed on both the inside and outside wall of a curved staircase. :rolleyes: The issue I see with your suggestion is that I would have to veneer all the surfaces, including the raised panel portions. Although not impossible, it is a time consumimg process, beyound my customers budget. I was hoping to possibly construct the raised panels as usual out of MDF and then curf the backs to make them plyable. The issue there is the saw curfs would show through at the transition points. Any additional suggestions are appreciated.
Al

[Richard Wolf]

This is a difficult question with very little information. It seems time and money are of the essence so let me make a few suggestions. If the walls are rocked already, why not use the sheet rock as your flush panels and just concern yourself with rails and stiles. Unless the radii is very small the stiles can be flat and build up the rails with 1/4 inch strips of rail material.
I would but some bendable cove and bead and run it around the inside of the frames.
It's still alot of work and don't sell yourself short on the price.

Richard

[Ted Shrader]

Alfred -

Hmmmm .... Kerfed cut panels was one of my other thoughts - but didn't consider the complication of raised panels.

Have you considered using a curved flat panel (either bendable ply or laminated, kerfed MDF) and just apply the rails and stiles over that Granted, the field panel would not be raised, but the "frames" around them would simulate a raised panel.

Or if the owners are insistent or true raised panels, coopering thin strips together seems to be a solution. The problem with that is the time consuming smoothing of the face.

Hopefully somebody will jump in here with a great idea.

Regards,
Ted

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Why do we make life so complicated?
1. Yes there is sheet rock on the studs, but I need to remove it in order to have sufficient cllearance at the stringer.
2. Yes it would be easier to just use flat 1/4" stock and bend it, but again the customer has seen a picture with raised panels, so raised panels it must be. Too bad her budget isn't as high as her expectations.
3. Has anyone ever tried to wet bend MDF, kinda like I use to bend drywall. Dampen it and lay it over a 55 gal barrel and let gravity bent it. The curve isn't huge!
Al

[Steve Clardy]

Wetting MDF would be a disaster I would think. If you want say 3/4 raised panels, use 1/4 MDF. It will bend to quite a curve. Put up three layers of it.

[Wes Bischel]

Al,

Your mention of bending drywall reminded me of this product:

http://www.designerdrywall.com/

May not work for your application, but it would fit the clients budget.

Wes

[Chris Giles]

Alfred,

I looked at a job with similar requirements this past year, and my intention was to kerf the 3/4" MDF on the back stopping just short of the portion that would go into the stiles. For the top and bottom curved portion of the raise panel, I was going to use 8/4 soft maple cut and shaped into the appropriate arc and glued to the ends of the kerfed panel. This would hide the kerf cuts, and define the curve of the panel quite well. Frankly, as I ran thru it in the planning stages, I felt the rails (being 3" high) would be more troublesome than the panels. I finally bagged the whole thing, and didn't quote it. To many headaches, and the price was reaching the stratosphere. It was, I think, a little out of my comfort zone.

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Thank you All for your suggestions and help. I'll get back when I have completed this project with an update.
Al

[Don Naples]

With information about the radius you need, a bending form and drying rack make this a fairly quick task. I used galvanized steel for straps when bending. The choice of wood is an issue, as it should be bendable and you want to know the springback. I did it with kiln dried Honduras Mahogany, though you are not supposed to be able to bend it when kiln dried. It can be done. It is best to finish the raised panels defore installing, so the finish edge does not show when there is shrinkage.
http://www.woodartistry.com/wnimages/Stairway%20Curve1.jpg

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Hi Don,
This response may be a duplicate, sorry if so, lost power on my laptop.Thank you for the pics, that's just what I need to do. My spec calls for Poplar to be used, since it will be painted. Did you mould the raised panel before or after you bent them. Would you be willing to share how many hours you put in?
Al

[Don Naples]

The entire project took a long time, as I did both sides of ther stairs and some at the top hall as well. The bending portion did not take long once the bending form and drying form were made. I had someone help me as with the project who built the forms out of 2 x 4s. We did cut and shape each piece flat and then positioned it on the appropriate part of the form for bending. We did a test run with Poplar, so I know that will work. The panels were the easy part. The rails were harder, due to the direction of the grain. Poplar is easier than kiln dried mahogany, but for insurance we kerfed the back of the rails. That was a mistake as it showed the relief as faceted surfaces, so we did it again with twice the number of kerfs. That worked after some minor sanding. It also worked without the kerfs, but there was some showing of compression that concerned us that over time it might show at the surface. One trick to this is use plenty of steam, not a small kettle. I used a 60k btu propane camp stove with a 2.5 gallon can and 2 inch radiator hose. Another technique we used is a block screwed to each end of the steel compression straps. We used two triangular wedges driven toward each other to quickly tighten the steel straps after the piece being bent was inserted. I also used sheet steel on the panels, though it was not needed as this bent quite easily and did not have the compression of the rails. Time to heat was 1" thickness per hour, 20 to 30 minutes to set, and then move to a drying rack of the same shape though not as robust as the bending form. I left the panels there covered with a tarp for a week with a small fan circulating air. The yield was almost 100%. I think we had two pieces we did not use. Let me know if you have any additional questions. The work is quick once you build the forms.

[Don Naples]

I will send you some pictures I found that show how to do this process.

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Don
I had a thought today. What if I built the panels oversized in width, either temporarily in a jig or permanently and shaped them. Then I would cut them into narrow strips based on the severity of the curve, the tighter the curve the narrower the strip. These narrow strips would then be beveled and reglued to form the curve. I would have to sand the top and bottom bevel, as well as the face of the panel. The wider the strips the more sanding would be required. This process could also be applied to the trapazoid shapes. I did notice that you had to deal with a severe curve, mine is a gental curve. What do you think?
Al

[Don Naples]

Al: Did you receive the pictures I sent to your email address? The strips make more work and the seams might show. I did not want to machine the panel, rail, and stiles after they were curved, so did that operation first. The springback was very small, so it fit together well. There is a little work making the forms and steam boxes, but it is just plywood and 2 x 4's. It does not take long. I used bending poplar on the face of the form and drew where each piece is positioned. As I previously mentioned, the panels are very easy to bend. The stiles won't need bending, the rails are positioned along the blocks screwed onto the bending form. One other suggestion is to draw the pieces on the wall where they will be installed. This will give you all the measurements and angles. Then bend the pieces so they match the drawing.
Don

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Don,
Yes I did receive the pics, thank you. I'll have to mull this one over a little more.
Al

[Bob Oswin]

For what it's worth, I have long ago declined any jobs that had budget and time constraints or both.
Your current proposal also includes a fair modicum of risk in that the request is beyond the limits of most commercial materials.
I wish you well with the project but to be honest I have strong reservations about accepting the clients criteria for complex jobs.

A pal of mine is on the way to court for a kitchen that changed dynamically and daily as the housewife became designer and architect as the job progressed, He has essentially built her two kitchens and she is still unhappy.
She also feels she should not have to pay for the changes she made.
Yes, there were drawings but trying to accomodate a client can be dangerous.

Regards
Bob

[Don Naples]

Bob: It is not much of a risk if you have the experience doing it. Part of the fun in woodworking is it is a constant learning experience. I agree with you that you might not want to have a firm quote on a job for a task of high difficulty. This one is with Poplar, so is not difficult. Doing it in kiln dried Mahogany was a high risk as you are not supposed to be able to bend kiln dried wood due to the plasticizing of the lignum in the drying process. It is fun to learn ways to accomplish things that "can't be done", but not while on a fixed budget. Too easy to lose money taking those risks.

[Bob Oswin]

I agree with you Don but this does not appear to be the case here or am I reading the original question wrong?
P.s. Experience makes most things easier. <g>

Bob

[Mike Alagna]

If this is going to be painted you can buy flex moulding from pretty much anywhere on teh internet and a lot of lumber yards. Resinart is one manufacturer. The stuff is heavy look wood but plyable. Youcan buy it in sheets or in stock. I would suggest buying some stock of it and milling it the same as the stiles and railes when you are milling those. It mills teh same as wood, no special tools. Then buy a few sheets of the same material and cut it and make your raised panels. All of it is flexible so youassemble it the exact same way as the rest.

[Don Naples]

I agree with you Don but this does not appear to be the case here or am I reading the original question wrong?
P.s. Experience makes most things easier. <g>

Bob
You are correct in the way you read it, but Al is drawing on my experience that doing this project in Poplar is not difficult. I realize he has not done this before, but has the job opportunity and will have good results that he can expand upon for future jobs.
</g>

[Bob Oswin]

Good luck to you both then.
Bob

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Hey Guys,
I agree with all of you. But if we were to some degree not up to the challenge, WHY ARE WE STILL SELF EMPLOYED! I realize this may be out of my current experience, but that is what learning and obtaining experience is all about. With guys like you and all who have submitted suggestions we continue to grow. Besides it's only money!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Al

[Alfred Spitzer, Jr.]

Thank you all for your help!