Day Two Woodturning Beads

[Steve Mathews]

After further reading, watching a few more videos and giving it more thought I made another attempt at making beads using a skew. A couple of pics are included below for those wanting their chuckle for the day. The first one shows my first attempts yesterday catches and all, not a good showing. The second shows what I consider a much improved bead. There are still some catches but not nearly as bad as before. I may have discovered today what all of you refer to as riding the bevel. For some reason my cuts right to left were better than left to right. I tried switching hands for the side that didn't work as well. Although it seemed to help the switch was awkward. I then tried rolling the leading edge into the groove and that helped with both sides. I was rolling the trailing edge before. The few times I was able to cut cleanly into the wood without a catch was very satisfying. I have to understand better what creates a catch.

340309 340310

For those that commented about joining a club or receiving instructions, I live in a fairly rural area of Northern Arizona where so far I haven't found any of these connections close by. However I may attend a seminar or class in Las Vegas or Phoenix in the future. For the time being books, online videos and thankfully this group are my only source of guidance.

[Aaron Craven]

Not a bad start at all...

There are some really good videos out there on understanding catches. I can't look them up at the moment, but I think there's one by Mike Waldt for starters.

One tip I've heard is to do everything in one direction, then switch to the other -- so cut the left side of each V about an inch apart, then cut the right half, then roll the left side of each bead, then roll the right side (or vice versa). The idea is to make sure you're working on the same thing for multiple repetitions rather than changing from one thing to another continuously.

[Roger Chandler]

There are AAW chapters in Tempe, Tuscon, Flagstaff and Prescott. Post your desire both here and on Wood Central, AAW forum and perhaps a couple of other turning forums, and let someone know you would like to have a mentor, and you will probably get a couple of offers for free or little cost.

Woodturners in general all learned from others and are a good sort for the most part, and are willing to help others get started. It really will take much time and frustration off the learning curve. There are aa number of turners from AZ. That post on the forums.

Post a thread such as "Kingman Az. Newbie needs turning mentor". See what kind of responses you get.

[Brice Rogers]

Maybe it is just me, but I find that a bowl gouge is difficult to use for beads. I find it hard to get to the bottom of the bead without the wing catching. A spindle gouge has lower wings and is less likely to catch. With practice, I think that the skew is the best tool to get a well defined bead. But that's just my thoughts....

[Sid Matheny]

I have been turning for several years and the skew is still my enemy! :eek:

[Greg McClurg]

Steve,

You might want to look at CraftSuppliesUSA for classes. They offer a variety of classes and scheduling. I've been to several and have never been disappointed.

[John K Jordan]

The few times I was able to cut cleanly into the wood without a catch was very satisfying. I have to understand better what creates a catch.

Fantasitc! The typical catches on a bead (or v-groove) happen when the edge is leaning a little too much towards the bead and begins to cut into the already-turned part of the bead, usually from simply not twisting the handle enough or not moving the handle to the right (on a right-hand side of the bead). The skew starts out nearly flat and ends up nearly vertical. If you can keep the center of the skew edge away from the bead it won't catch.

When cutting a v-groove you can sight down the edge and move the tool so there is the tiniest angle between the just cut flat and the sharp edge, maybe a fraction of a degree? When cutting a bead this is harder to see but the principle is about the same.


Hey, when I was in Italy a couple of months ago I was talking with a guy who runs a social/game/music/learning/activity after-school center for teens. When he saw pictures of my woodturning he immediately wanted to acquire a lathe and have me teach. When I mentioned it would be a long commute he said we could do it all by Skype. Now I've never used Skype but he said it was a good way to communicate in real time with audio and video and they do it all the time. I wonder if that would be a way a woodturner like you in relative isolation could interact with some experienced turners. ???

----------------------------

Hey, for a little fun, years ago I invented a catchless skew, unpatented, guaranteed not to catch when turning a bead or cutting a deep v-groove or your money back! The skeptics scoffed when I posted it way back then and they will probably scoff again, but here it is:

340323

In analyzing how the skew cuts a v-groove or bead, I realized it only cut with the tiniest edge right at either the long or short point. The catch that happens when the sharp edge in the middle of the skew touches the wood is eliminated if there is no sharp edge in the middle! So I ground a skew as usual then rounded over the center of the edge with a little diamond file (the blue part). Between a sixteenth and eighth of an inch of sharp edge is left at each point. This one has been sharpened a few times with a diamond hone. The big red "x" reminds me this skew is different.

It is completely useless where you need to cut with the center as for planing cuts on a cylinder or taper and equally useless on a rounded or shallow taper cut on the end grain of a spindle (as on a finger top or box). Note that I do not recommend making a skew like this and don't use it myself except for demonstrating what makes a catch and what doesn't. Besides, it would be cheating!

JKJ

[Dane Riley]

. I have to understand better what creates a catch.

A catch and what I call a skate are different. A skate is when the tool digs a spiral backwards from the direction you are trying to cut. Touch the edge to the wood before the bevel touches will usually do this. Even rubbing the bevel first can do this if the hand closest to the wood cannot resist the force created when the edge first engages, so start slow.

A catch is when the cutting moves away from the bottom edge of the skew. This causes a twisting force which rotates the skew to flat on the tool rest. This causes the long point to dig in. Once it starts to twist the rotational force increases slamming it down on the tool rest. AKA positive feedback, not a positive thing!

There may be other ways to catch a skew. Can anyone add them?

[Steve Mathews]

Dane - Thanks for the clarification. Based on that terminology it seems what happened to me was a catch and a skate and maybe a few other errors yet to be defined.

John - Thanks for the suggestion on how to handle the skew. I went back and tried to stay on the leading or trailing edge and roll the skew vertical into the recess. That helped a lot. I still don't understand why the middle of the skew is taboo but at least there is some direction in what to think about. Before I had no clue what was going on. Good suggestion on the skype idea. Coincidentally my wife just set that up on my laptop. Something to think about in the future.

I also used a spindle gouge for the first time today and found it much easier to use. My plan is to stick with the skew and practice with it a little longer before moving ahead. I would like to feel more comfortable with it and understand how it works. Maybe making a series of six beads without a major mistake is a good jumping off point.

[John K Jordan]

... I also used a spindle gouge for the first time today and found it much easier to use. My plan is to stick with the skew and practice with it a little longer before moving ahead. I would like to feel more comfortable with it and understand how it works. ...

Steve, I think that is a perfect goal. Some people starting out don't take time for this and focus instead on shaping an impressive masterpiece, by hook or by crook - if the cut isn't clean, so what, there is always 80 grit sandpaper.

I may have mentioned this earlier, but even after years of turning, something I often do is practice as I go. For example, if I'm making a long-stemmed goblet and have to reduce the shaft to a small diameter I might try three skews with different grinds, try planing long point up/down, try peeling cuts, switch to a roughing gouge, try a bowl gouge, a bedan, a scraper, a Hunter carbide tool, etc. I'll try rough hogging away with a parting tool then make a series of smooth finish cuts, then make some beads and coves, cut them away... whatever I can think of and sometimes things I've never tried before.

This may seem like a terribly inefficient way to work (I would never make it as a production turner!) but this way I get way more comfortable with different tools and grinds. This way I discover what works and what doesn't in a particular situation with that particular type of wood. (For example, one day I discovered a sharp small-angle skew that works great on a small diameter shaft of persimmon is horrible on osage orange - it splinters like crazy!) As I get the wood closer to my intended design I concentrate more on the final shape and on making perfect finish cuts - by the time I do the one finish cut that counts I've just had a lot of practice!

I thought I was a little crazy for all this until I found out some other turners do the same thing. I think there is as much joy in the process as there is in showing off the masterpiece!

BTW, the spindle gouge is in fact a lot easier to use for SOME things but the skew is easier for others. For example, I like to turn long, thin spindles which are sometimes tricky when the shaft gets so thin it is very flexible. In that case, the spindle gouge can cause the shaft to flex and actually ride up over the narrow curved tip of the gouge - a potential disaster. A skew can't possibly do that since the straight cutting edge is directly supported by entire width of the bevel. If you learn what to use where and why, you will soon be far ahead!

JKJ

[Aaron Craven]

...I still don't understand why the middle of the skew is taboo...

There's a good video by Brian Havens that answers this. I don't remember the title, but I think it's in one of his more recent videos.

If you think of the cutting edge as a lever and the edge of the tool resting on the tool rest as a fulcrum it helps. Cutting near the heel of the edge, you're very close to the fulcrum, so the the "lever arm" is very short and the torque trying to rotate your tool back to horizontal is easily counteracted. But as you move away from the heel toward the point, you increase the length of the lever arm, and the torque gets much stronger. As mentioned above, this causes the tool to rotate, and as it does, the torque increases faster than you can compensate. When it reaches the point, it digs in until the rotation of the workpiece throws it out (the "catch"). As spectacular as a catch like this feels, it's actually quite safe because the tool is almost always ejected from the work instead of being drawn in (as can happen with some other tools).

Brian's video does a much better job explaining what I'm talking about above.

[Steve Mathews]

It took awhile to find it but I think this is the suggested video from Brian Havens. And yes, it was very helpful. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U4Z-Rm6PjA&list=PLjRwVZZffCDRx9DdpsJQSflOwxlTR5B0m

[Aaron Craven]

It took awhile to find it but I think this is the suggested video from Brian Havens. And yes, it was very helpful. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U4Z-Rm6PjA&list=PLjRwVZZffCDRx9DdpsJQSflOwxlTR5B0m

I've really enjoyed a lot of his videos. He tends to put things in terms that really help me. I have a number of favorites... Mike Waldt, Cap'n Eddie, Robo Hippy, and some others I can't remember off the top of my head.

[John K Jordan]

It took awhile to find it but I think this is the suggested video from Brian Havens. And yes, it was very helpful. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U4Z-Rm6PjA&list=PLjRwVZZffCDRx9DdpsJQSflOwxlTR5B0m

Did you notice how short the handle is on the skew he is using? For example, look at 9:30-9:50 in the video. It is just big enough to hold in one hand.

I use short handles like this a lot and so do other. (you should see the tools in Frank Penta's shop!) But occasionally I get grief for not having conventionally long handles. And some people get used to long handles on everything and imagine that is the way things need to be.

To be clear: Long handles are needed on some things, like big gouges and scrapers and hollowers used on big things. And I like longer handles on skews for turning deep v-grooves and coves. But for much spindle work, they sometimes just get in the way. In fact, on smaller work I often use spindle tools with no handles.

Having a little longer handle is nice for some spindle work, especially for thin spindles where I use my left hand to control vibration. In this case, I grip the handle right at the ferrule as Brian does but press the end of the handle against the underside of my forearm. This provides a little more stability.

JKJ