Remodeling an oooold house

[Tom Hammond]

Hey guys.

My wife and I have purchased another old house here in Ohio... only this time (the last) we are moving in. As the house was built in 1817 (according to documents previous owner had) it needs a little fix up. I've not seen anything in this house that I haven't run into before except for one thing... and I'd like to inquire if anyone has seen this before.

The house has full-dimensional lumber, of course, and is balloon-framed. On the outside of the house is a standard lap siding, 3/4" thick, and on the inside was lath and plaster. Very common. However, in each exterior wall stud bay, the original builder put a nailing strip on each 2x4 and spanned the bay with a second layer of the lap siding... with the pieces butting up against each stud. This layer is in the middle of the bay, creating a second air pocket within the wall.

Now, at first, I thought this was simply to create another layer of air in the wall to act as an insulator against wind infiltration. But, one night I was up drawing the design of the new front porch and the question came to mind whether this material may be structural in some way. Is it possible that, in the absence of sheet goods 200 years ago, this was a solution against racking of the building? These boards aren't jammed in, but they do seem to be fairly custom fitted for the individual stud bays.

Has anyone ever seen this before? Any input or resource material will be GREATLY appreciated!

[Jay Nossen]

Tom,
I'm trying to better understand what you are seeing. It sounds like the nailer is set into the stud bays and the "second layer of lap siding" is nailed to that to be flush with the face of the 2x4. Is that correct?

[Martin Wasner]

My guess is it'd just there for another cavity.

As someone who has put their head in the noose off an old house too many times, torch it and start over. There is nothing superior to an old house to properly built modern construction.

Are you gutting the interior? I wouldn't fret about tearing that excess material out and just spray foaming to the exterior boards. If you're going with new windows and siding, I'd just inspect and replace as necessary, then tyvek the whole thing if they are tight and flat. Our just sheet over it so your new siding lays flat. I'm also assuming it doesn't have a stone/brick/stucco exterior. Those need to breathe, in which case I have nothing useful to add.

[Adam Herman]

looks like a fun project! I love old things.

i would guess it is for insulation as well, but in no way am an expert. I have not seen this particular feature on stuff built later in the 19th century in michigan. What are your plans? I would love to be able to follow along with some pictures on here.

[George Bokros]

Tom, where in Ohio are you? Would love to see the old house. The exterior sure has some charm / character.

[Tom M King]

I work on old houses for a living, but have never seen anything like that. I have run into all sorts of other weird stuff done for some unknown reasoning by the builder. Check out my website. I can't post a link here. What I do is not "remodeling", but putting them back like they were, sometimes more like resurrection.

[Erik Loza]

I can't offer any input except to say that I'm curious to hear how it goes, because stuff like this fascinates me. We ran into all sorts of "surprises" when we remodeled out house and it as nowhere near as old as yours.

Erik

[Tom Hammond]

Jay:

That second layer is midway between the exterior siding and the lath. From outside in, it goes: siding, air pocket, 2nd siding layer, air pocket, lath, plaster. In some cases, they just jammed boards between the studs. Weird.

[Tom Hammond]

Martin:

In Ohio, new construction must have all permit-requiring work done by licensed contractors. So, the heat, plumbing, electric, framing, etc... all done by pros at pro prices. I wouldn't be allowed to build the house myself. I've passed code 100 times on remodels... but it doesn't matter. I wouldn't even be allowed to pull the permits myself. I thought maybe that was because of mortgages... that too many people got half though a job and couldn't finish and then the bank eats it. But, even on cash deals, this applies.

Anyway, we prefer an old house even though I have to pour a floor in the basement to jack up the 1st level floors and build spans to create quasi-trusses because the 2nd floor ceiling joists bounce... and have to deal with many other challenges.

[Tom Hammond]

George: Just outside of Hartville.

[George Bokros]

George: Just outside of Hartville.


I'm just up the street from you in Streetsboro. I visit Hartville Hardware for the two tool sales and at other times also.

[Mel Fulks]

Erik, that is the first time I've heard of an "out house" renovation. Did hear of one used as phone booth!

[Martin Wasner]

Martin:

In Ohio, new construction must have all permit-requiring work done by licensed contractors. So, the heat, plumbing, electric, framing, etc... all done by pros at pro prices. I wouldn't be allowed to build the house myself.

Not going to lie, that's messed up. Here if it passes inspection, it doesn't matter who does it.

I just hate working on old houses. Even worse when it's mine. I don't know how many times I've opened something up and asked a higher power what was going on. My last house was built in 1900. Had four additions. I would give my right eye if I could strangle every person that ever picked up a tool in that house. I also should've just torched it and just admitted to myself I paid a bit much for a lot in town.

[Scott Besaw]

Hi Tom,
There are a lot of counties in Ohio that the homeowner can pull their own permits and do the work. I live in Portage county and pulled the permits for everything and did the work myself. I would call Stark county building department and the Hartville building department if you do need to do something that needs a permit. I did not think you needed a licensed contractor in most of Stark. If you don't need or want to get a permit I guess none of this matters.

[Wayne Lomman]

Tom, from a structural point of view, I cannot see it resisting racking forces. Diagonal braces would be doing this. I am working on my son's place in Tasmania and the construction method is identical apart from the inner layer in question. It was built in 1880. Cheers

[Bob Vaughan]

Maybe some sort of fire stop?

[Tom Hammond]

Scott:

That is true... but in new construction, I got blocked on everything. So I checked... in all 88 counties, new construction requires permits to be pulled by licensed contractors. Not the same for remodeling existing structures, though.

[Tom Hammond]

I took some pics when I was at the house last night. Here's what I'm talking about.

[Wayne Lomman]

Tom, I can't think of a reason other than draft exclusion. It doesn't perform any fire control - in fact it assists fire as there do not appear to be any draft boards between the studs. Are you going to leave them in or do you have an alternative use for them? Cheers

[Rich Engelhardt]

@ George -- - -Road Trip!!!

:D

[Scott Besaw]

Thanks Tom, I didn't know that. I moved my house and added on, but it was not new construction. My brother-in-law built new 16 years ago and pulled all his permits and we built the house. Must of changed some things. You have a nice looking house. Old houses are interesting to work on and frustrating. Good luck with the house.

That is true... but in new construction, I got blocked on everything. So I checked... in all 88 counties, new construction requires permits to be pulled by licensed contractors. Not the same for remodeling existing structures, though.[/QUOTE]

[Rodger Kanis]

Wow! All those little boards add up to a LOT of extra hand-sawing done back in 1817! :eek:

[Robby Tacheny]

Can you check the history of the house? Maybe it was used as a boarding house, hospital, or tuberculosis ward, etc at one time and maybe this was done for sound proofing or as another specific reason? Based on the history maybe you can discover the reason? Does your town have a historical society? Have you checked with them?

From what I can tell from your pictures, it may have had major additions 2 or 3 times. Do the additions have the same treatment or just the "main" space?

Robby

[Stew Hagerty]

I took some pics when I was at the house last night. Here's what I'm talking about.


Tom, I can't think of a reason other than draft exclusion. It doesn't perform any fire control - in fact it assists fire as there do not appear to be any draft boards between the studs. Are you going to leave them in or do you have an alternative use for them? Cheers


Can you check the history of the house? Maybe it was used as a boarding house, hospital, or tuberculosis ward, etc at one time and maybe this was done for sound proofing or as another specific reason? Based on the history maybe you finds the reason? Does your town have a historical society? Have you checked with them?

From what I can tell from your pictures, it may have had major additions 2 or 3 times. Do the additions have the same treatment or just the "main" space?

Robby

WOW! As Roger said, "All those little boards add up to a LOT of extra hand-sawing done back in 1817! :eek: ". Not to mention that it looks like the studs are rabbeted. Are they?

As a former General Contractor, I can definitively say that I have never seen or heard of anything like this before. But I did find this photo. It may be similar to yours.

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I suppose is could be to help drafts, but I don't know about sound deadening... I have no context as to the location. If it is close to a road, or neighbors I suppose it could be possible.

If I had to guess, just based on a few minutes of research & thought, I'd have to lean towards a combination of structural and draft/insulation.

[Robert Engel]

Hope all goes well. My biggest fear would be finding major structural issues like foundation (every wall is probably load bearing).
Hiring an engineer is where the $$'s start flying out the window. Hope that doesn't happen to you.

[Bill McNiel]

I would venture that this is an early attempt at creating a "Shear Panel" designed to resist lateral forces.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I did a lot of research on timber framing before building our house. There was a LOT of comparing timber to balloon in available references, and it was common to point out the lack of fire stops and thus huge fire hazard in balloon frames. As others point out, this doesn't look like fire stops (far from it). And I suspect only a rank novice installer would have expected much shear resistance. ....My vote would be draft or noise reduction?

Also, I recall that balloon framing only came into practice after ~1830, when mass-produced nails became affordable. Are the nails hand cut? If so, and 1817-build is correct, you might have one of very earliest examples of balloon framing.

Good luck and enjoy!

Edit: A simple 1x brace, angled from bottom plate (or beam) to the top of a corner stud and let in to the studs, would have provided much, much more shear strength - - and at SIGNIFICANTLY less cost than these 'mid-stud' boards.

[Mel Fulks]

Are there both machine made and hand wrought nails in the house? I'm wondering if they were trying to build in a way that allowed the use of more of the cheaper but weaker cut nails.

[Ed Labadie]

My house is balloon construction, there was nothing like that in the walls.

When the time comes to insulate, you will have to have the sill areas spray foamed, there is no other way to seal them up.

Ed

[Robby Tacheny]

This is why I wonder if there was a purpose to those boards. Purposes that come to mind:

For noise:
In a boarding house, you may want extra noise barriers in the wall so that you can sleep. In a hospital environment, you might not want to hear the person next door coughing. In a brothel. . . well you know. :)

For Thermal Properties:
As an attempt at cutting down on drafts? Are these in exterior walls too?

For early walls:
Is it possible this house was built using those interior boards as early walls, with the purpose being that later they would lathe/plaster over them? Like maybe they ran out of money or materials.

For protection:
If your house were just a few years older, there were many wars/skirmishes happening between 1810 and 1820 that could have affected your area.

I highly recommend consulting someone who has knowledge of period building techniques in your area and may also know the local history. You might be looking at significant example of early architecture or possibly an attempt to modify the house for a particular event.

Robby

[Jim Dwight]

Our current house is about 50 years old and the oldest I've ever owned. I like it but more for the lot than the house (it's on a lake). It has been added onto several times and had a lot of work done by somebody who didn't know what they were doing (probably the first and only other homeowner). A good bit of the house has no grounds, there were a dozen or so electrical boxes in the crawl space with no cover, they left exterior brick inside walls when they added on, put brick around wiring and plumbing when putting up a chimney, etc.. Our walls are also ballon framed but they had diagonal bracing. I doubt the homeowner did the framing but if he did he was better at that. It is OK. Probably the silliest thing was insulating between roof rafters when the ceiling of the room is flat. It fell down and there is a ridge vent to let air on the backside of it even when it was up so we effectively had no insulation.

I admire you for having the patience to deal with these sort of issues. I will get this house fixed up but I would prefer to be in a newer house without these issues.

I am confident the extra wall serves no structural purpose. 3/4 siding should be good enough for lateral bracing but if you remove that, you need diagonal bracing or sheet goods for bracing.

[Wayne Lomman]

The University of Wisconsin has done a lot of research on old timber buildings. Mostly rural buildings but the technique may be known to them. The info on their side is extensive and includes copies of original blueprints. It's well worth a look for general interest in what was done with timber. Cheers

[Tom Hammond]

Wayne: These are in all the exterior walls of the original house. I have to pull them out along with the nailing strips so we can insulate.

[Tom Hammond]

Stew: When the house was built, it had hundreds of acres of property so sound deadening is probably not it. No record it was ever anything but a residence. The boards are tongue and groove like a siding or flooring material.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't see an answer to my question about the nails used.

[Stew Hagerty]

Stew: When the house was built, it had hundreds of acres of property so sound deadening is probably not it. No record it was ever anything but a residence. The boards are tongue and groove like a siding or flooring material.

In that case Tom, I would have to conclude that is almost certainly to reduce air infiltration. While you would get some minimal structural benefit, in the form of resistance to racking, I would have to agree that there are much better (and easier!) methods of achieving the same effect, such as diagonal bracing.
Since you have ruled out sound deadening, that really only leaves air infiltration and some modest insulation properties due to dual airspaces and the R-value of the wood itself.
I think you have yourself a home with fairly advanced design & construction methods, not to mention the expense of cutting and planing in the tongues & grooves all those hundreds of small boards.

[Tom M King]

One 1780 house that I've done some work on, near here, has not only the exterior walls, but all the interior walls filled with bricks.

[Charles Lent]

I've seen many 1700's houses in the Southern end of the Hudson Valley of New York with bricks lining all the exterior wall stud cavities.
This area was heavy with brick manufacturing in the late 1700's and 1800's, so I've always assumed that they did this for insulation, but wondered why they didn't just make the whole house from brick. Because the brick yards were just around the corner in many cases, it would seem like the wood would have been more costly to build with. I'm a retired fireman and have never seen the double cavity design that the OP has in his walls.

Charley

[Tom Hammond]

Mel:

The nails in the original part of the house are mostly Type B square cut nails. I had to go look to be sure before I answered. There's thousands of them... and the darn things are still hellish to pull out even after all these years. There are some of the round-head Type A, but probably no more than about 10% of what we've pulled. The studs are all oak... and when I looked close at the attic stair stringers... walnut. What the...?!

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,Tom. Cut nails begin in US around 1800 and round head are later. Balloon framing is generally considered a little later than 1816. Since the house seems to have additions you might still find different constructions and nail types. 1816 is pretty early for Ohio and access to varied materials was nothing like what the coast had. The weakness of cut nails ,compared to wrought, is enough that wrought nails were still being made at least to 1820's and being re-used. I think the unusual construction detail might be "overkill" due to causiousness about new-fangled balloon framing. Walnut is a strong and durable exterior wood as well as beautiful interior material and even porch decking has been found made of it. Please keep us informed !

[Steve Peterson]

I would venture that this is an early attempt at creating a "Shear Panel" designed to resist lateral forces.

One diagonal 1x4 brace would probably prevent racking better than all of those tiny horizontal boards.

Steve

[Mel Fulks]

I'm sure you are right, Steve. But we've all seen "overkill" that was really less efficient than standard methods.