Workholding when using Japanese handsaws

[Prashun Patel]

What is your preferred method for workholding when using Japanese pull saws (both cross cutting and ripping)?

Bench hook with holdfasts or a vise for wide crosscuts? If yes, then how far back is your batten such that you can dip the handle enough on wider cuts? On thicker cuts, I am being taught to start on the back side, and cut kerfs along the front and back, and joining them. But for wide, shallow cuts, this doesn't make sense to me. Seems like you'd want to start from the front and cut across the top to the back.

If you hold your work in a vise or clamp? Which kind? How do you control vibration? If your vise is left-mounted, then do you hold the cutoff with your left hand? That feels awkward if the waste is small.

Do you crosscut and rip on the floor on low horses? What would a Japanese saw bench look like?

It is surprisingly difficult to find videos on J-sawing technique. There are a million resources on the TYPES of saws. I have watched Woodman's Youtubes vids, but he only covers cutting tenons.

[James Pallas]

Hi Prashun I made this hook about a year ago. It was to help me out with back problems. I originally made it for western saws. I later started using Japanese saws and found it to work equally well. I cross cut longer boards in the vise. My vises are located very close to the bench corners so vibration is not a problem.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

I have a bench hook with a fence through the middle. The near side is used for Western saws (as demonstrated below) and the far side for pull saws. The bench hook can be hooked over a bench or clamped in a leg vise. Apology for the poor photo ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Bench%20Hook/3.jpg

Here is the other side of the bench hook, here used with a shoulder plane. However, it is used the same way for a pull saw - hand pulling the work piece into the fence ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Bench%20Hook/16.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

I use a vise for shallow or short crosscuts and a bench hook for wider ones. Haven't tried ripping yet.....

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Your questions are basically the reason I stopped using Japanese saws and went to western saws. I know there are folks who mix Japanese and western style planes and saws, but for me it was too much trouble. I felt like it was better to pick one style and stick with it.

[Prashun Patel]

Nicholas-

I hear you. I do find it more straightforward to use a push saw. There is an authority to Western saws that is appealing. However, I am also drawn to the Japanese saws. I just like how they feel.

I really like the action of two-handed cutting with a Ryoba. But that means you can't use a stop or your knee; you need a vise or clamp.

I may be overthinking this, but it really feels like these saws like to cut with the work piece oriented horizontally, and the saw cutting, handle down from front to back. To this end, I would think the optimal bench would actually be HIGHER than a Western bench, instead of just off the floor. I could see working off 48" horses so that with a wide stance, I'd be ergonomically stable, and at eye level to the piece to cut. I can't though, find examples of such a 'high saw bench'. Is my intuition missing something here?

[Jim Koepke]

I too like the feel of the Japanese saws. My accuracy is much better with the western saws.

The comfort factor of working while seated on a floor may have more to do with how we grew up as compared to how people on the other side of the Pacific Rim lived.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I like the Japanese saws too. I am not trying to discourage you. I just never cracked the nut myself.

What do Japanese benches look like? Surely they have a couple of established designs.

[Luke Dupont]

I too would like to know more about Japanese sawing practices, especially as it pertains to ripping.

If you try ripping with a pull saw at the standard downward angle that you would with a western saw, the orientation of the teeth want to catch underneath the endgrain fibers. You're sawing against/up into the grain, and it both pulls your work towards the unsupported surface, makes the going more difficult, and results in a lot of vibration.

I find it easier to rip from the near side of the board, towards the far side, with the handle underneath the work, but that necessitates hanging the work off of a high bench or saw horses and squatting down low. Not ideal really.

[Matt Lau]

I too would like to know more about Japanese sawing practices, especially as it pertains to ripping.

If you try ripping with a pull saw at the standard downward angle that you would with a western saw, the orientation of the teeth want to catch underneath the endgrain fibers. You're sawing against/up into the grain, and it both pulls your work towards the unsupported surface, makes the going more difficult, and results in a lot of vibration.

I find it easier to rip from the near side of the board, towards the far side, with the handle underneath the work, but that necessitates hanging the work off of a high bench or saw horses and squatting down low. Not ideal really.


Pinging Stan Covington!

[Mike Holbrook]

Prashun,

I like my Japanese Silky folding saws. I got started using them for arborists chores, before discovering they made a few models for woodworkers too. I still use mine a good deal. Unlike Jim K. above, I feel I am more accurate with the Japanese saws. I frequently start cuts with a Japanese saw, sometimes moving to a western saw once I get a kerf properly established. It may be that the whippy blades on my Silky saws make me use a light touch keeping me from forcing the saw off track. It could also be that I am not much at tunning western saws yet.

Odate says ""Shokumin often hold pieces of wood for marking, clamping and sawing on pairs of small horses. These can be as simple as pieces of 2x4s with smaller blocks nailed on as feet, or can be precisely crafted, like the ones in the picture he shows."

The horses he shows in his picture sit on the ground, not more than a foot off the ground. The pictures he shows in the sawing section of his book all show him holding or standing on wood he is sawing that is resting on one or two of these small, low horses. If the piece being sawed is on the ground one might see why they would start on the far side. It being the more accessible side from that position.

I usually hold the pieces I work in one of the wood vices in my small Hammer bench. At least I have until I built a sawing and gluing station. My sawing station works much like Prashun mentions. It holds the work up higher, around 40" which is about the level my elbow hangs at naturally when I saw. So far I have been using my sawing station mostly with miter boxes. I will try it with the Japanese saws soon, to see how that works.

340322

Stanley may have to write another book to straighten us out on this one.

[Stanley Covington]

Pinging Stan Covington!

Matt:

I'm not sure what the question's are.

It would indeed take a book to properly describe how to use Japanese saws, or any saws for that matter, correctly, especially since what works for me may not work well for someone else.

Please help me sort out what is wanted, Matt, and in my abundant free time (when I'm not dreadfully busy watching soap operas and eating bon bons on the sofa :rolleyes:), I can try to respond.

My experience on SC is that all but a few people don't really want to learn techniques. Not much incentive to spend a lot of time on it.

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

Matt:



My experience on SC is that all but a few people don't really want to learn techniques. Not much incentive to spend a lot of time on it.

Stan

Not too pesimistic Stan. ;)

[Prashun Patel]

Stan-
I think you know I am interested....

Could you recommend some good books? Most that I have researched focus on the difference between the types of saws, or the geometry of the joints.

I'm not interested in either (yet!!!!)

In this thread, I am specifically interested in work holding during the different saw operations. In addition, I'm looking for resources on how to saw off the floor from low horses. This style appeals to me because it's extremely mobile, which is important to me.

[Stew Hagerty]

Your questions are basically the reason I stopped using Japanese saws and went to western saws. I know there are folks who mix Japanese and western style planes and saws, but for me it was too much trouble. I felt like it was better to pick one style and stick with it.

I reach for one of my western style saws probably 90-95% of the time. I have a really nice Dozuki that I picked up a while back that I will use for small trim work. I use it then because of the fine, clean cut.
Workholding is one of the reasons I probably don't use it more. I recently picked up a Bench Hook set from Bad Axe. Mark had them on sale due to some cosmetic faults, and I absolutely love them. I've made my own before, several times in fact, but mine have never been nearly as nice as his. The fences are dadoed into the base, the material is solid and thick, and I never made a narrow one with an extension before (I'll never have it any other way again!).
I noticed that the extension's bottom fence is set back from the edge and it's much shorter, which makes it great for using a pull saw on fine work.. There isn't a whole lot of room on the far side, but for trim it works great.
340340

[Stanley Covington]

Prashun:

Yes, I know you are truly interested, and that is good enough.

Give me some time to think and write. I will need to buy some more bon bons too!

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun, you've already seen this, but I'll post it up here for everyone reading.

This is my solution, which turns the back half of my bench into something similar to a planing beam. This will be a multi-purpose stop, which will work for planing large material, planing flush with a nagadai kanna and for Kumiko work, which I intend to make a plane and track for.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/CB52FAF0-B137-40C4-AE2B-166E9F242713_zpsz97oybdg.jpg

[Mike Holbrook]

Brian, is that stop a permanent part of the bench or do the two dowels fit in dog holes? I only see one dog hole further up. I have been using the similar LV aluminum stops, with adjustable holding pins. The taller stop may work better in some situations?

Prashun, Amazon offers new and used copies of Toshio Odate's book "Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit and Use". They even have a DVD by Odate that I am thinking about buying, unless Stanley has another suggestion. Odate's book may be a little dated but sometimes traditional methods have stood the test of time and deserve a read.

Stanley, there are always those who think they have everything all figured out. Then there are those of us who think there is ALWAYS: a better way, ways to improve, more efficient methods, more ways to tweak tools\benches\work space....Sometimes these tweaks even speed work up.

I like the idea of working on the floor, it is very hard to fall off of. Lately, I sometimes have difficulty getting back up once I get there though.

[Allan Speers]

I use nokogiri exclusively. Just can't get along with western saws.

Probably 90% of the time, I don't use ANYTHING to hold them, except my left hand. Otherwise, a simple stop similar to what Brian shows, above.

One of the "secrets" of using a japanese saw is to not push down as you saw. The way the teeth are cut, it pulls the saw into the work all by itself. "Light and fast" is the key, concentrating instead on your orientation to the piece. (Having your forearm level to the ground is also helpful)

[Derek Cohen]

One of the "secrets" of using a japanese saw is to not push down as you saw.

Exactly Allan. I use Western saws more than Japanese saws now, but I have used Japanese for longer, and I continue to use them for fine, delicate work where their small, multiple teeth work best.

The point I could have made earlier is that pulling a saw requires less holding power than when pushing a saw. I can easily hold a board or work piece in one hand and saw it with the other. No clamping (other than a hand or foot) is needed. The secret to all sawing is to remove any extra weight from the saw and let it do its work under its own weight. Light strokes are easily done with a dozuki. I have had the same Z-saw for several years now, and it has not lost any teeth.

The design that Brian shows is essentially the same as the bench hook I posted. The fence lies in the middle of the bench hook, and the workpiece is pulled against it by the saw. You can also use a dog to do the same thing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

I have been practicing with my Ryoba.

When I make a vertical cut (working my way down the front face of a piece - imagine a 2x4 with the 4" side vertical, chucked in a vise) I get very good results. Fairly square.

When I make a horizontal cut (working my way across the top face of a piece front-to-back - imagine 2x4 with the 2" side vertical, chucked in a vise) the saw wanders to the right towards the end.

In both cases, I am chucked in the vise, and am using 2 hands on the Ryoba. Is the wander from pushing into the cut and causing the blade to flex, or is it more typically from elbow "run out". I'm using 2 hands to pull the saw into the center of my body, so I don't see how runout is possible.

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun, I'm a little lost in the descriptions, are you rip cutting or cross cutting?

If this is a rip cut I think primarily that a 4" thick piece is too much for your saw, so it's going to deflect since the gullets are filled.

Are you wedging the cut as you go?

[Prashun Patel]

Not ripping, Brian. It's cross-cutting.

In the first case, I'm cross cutting with the 2" side on the bench, and the 4" side up. In this case, because of the height, I can work along the backside a little to establish a kerf, and the front side - just as you taught me for a re-saw type cut (except it's cross grain; it's just a tall cross cut.).

In the second case, I'm x-cutting with the 4" side on the bench and the 2" side up. In this case, there is no clearance on the back side to start the cut. So, I start on the front corner with the handle down. The saw decends the 2" front-facing face quickly, and then I am moving across the remainder of the top fact. This is when I experience wander. To the right. Consistently.


I should post a picture

[Brian Holcombe]

Ahh, I see, is it possible to hang the piece over the bench? Cut triangles from corner to corner.

This guy shows good crosscutting technique.

I crosscut one handed most of the two (two hands mostly for rip). Not a firm every time sort of thing in either case.


https://youtu.be/SRWvBHT3xww

[Prashun Patel]

Brian-
What search term did you use to find that? vids are worth amillion words. For the life of me I can't search it properly. "japanese saw technique" yields links to tool sellers. Seaching for "nokogiri" yields links to web programming.

[Brian Holcombe]

I used 'Japanese timber frame' then started clicking through a couple videos to get to some good ones.

[john zulu]

For deep and long cuts. I use vertical cuts. Check on the japanese bench saw. The blade is pointed to the ground. It helps stablize the cut.

[paul cottingham]

Prashun:

Yes, I know you are truly interested, and that is good enough.

Give me some time to think and write. I will need to buy some more bon bons too!

Stan

for what it is worth, I second Prashuns interest. I am a western saw user through and through, but am keenly interested interested in Japanese saw use, especially for small trim work.

[John Roth]

Prashun:

FWW had a good article on Japanese saws and workholding last summer, by Andrew Hunter. I found it helpful. For rips, he uses a pair of short horses, and holds the piece stable with his foot. For crosscuts, he uses his bench with a couple of dogs, similar to what Brian does with his stop and other do with a bench hook. For dovetails he sits on a short stool with the work on the bench at eye level and pulls down.

I agree with the other posters that say that a light touch is the way to go. Every time I fight it, the saw wanders.

John

[Pat Barry]

I have been practicing with my Ryoba.

When I make a vertical cut (working my way down the front face of a piece - imagine a 2x4 with the 4" side vertical, chucked in a vise) I get very good results. Fairly square.

When I make a horizontal cut (working my way across the top face of a piece front-to-back - imagine 2x4 with the 2" side vertical, chucked in a vise) the saw wanders to the right towards the end.

In both cases, I am chucked in the vise, and am using 2 hands on the Ryoba. Is the wander from pushing into the cut and causing the blade to flex, or is it more typically from elbow "run out". I'm using 2 hands to pull the saw into the center of my body, so I don't see how runout is possible.
You should still cut from back to front for your second example. Why do you feel compelled to make a change in your method just because of the board being horizontal vs vertical.?

[James Pallas]

At risk of leading some down a wrong path and being new to Japanese saws (a year or so). This is what I do. I think upside down an backwards from western saws when setting up a cut. Example: when cutting tenon cheeks I tip the work towards me in the vise and start the cut on the far side. This seems to work very well for me. I do much the same when cross cutting, starting on the far side of the work. When I can lean my weight into the work it is easier to hold it in place even without a stop.
Jim

[Stanley Covington]

Brian-
What search term did you use to find that? vids are worth amillion words. For the life of me I can't search it properly. "japanese saw technique" yields links to tool sellers. Seaching for "nokogiri" yields links to web programming.

Try copying and pasting these words and phrases in the search box. The results will all be in Japanese, but the video should be useful:

鋸
鋸の使い方
鋸を使う
両刃鋸
銅付き鋸
片刃鋸
鋸の挽き方
替え刃式鋸の使い方

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks guys.

I found this great video from jay van arsdale. He doesn't even use a stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kpbkDxMjU&sns=em

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the link(s), Prashun. The series by Jay is superb. It is years since I watched it, and fascinating to see how much else is in it that I missed the first few viewings.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks guys.

I found this great video from jay van arsdale. He doesn't even use a stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kpbkDxMjU&sns=em

Prashun:

Mr. Van Arsdale's video is very good at showing the basics. It is obviously not intended to show advanced techniques, but should answer most of your questions except for work off of shorty sawhorses.

Stan

[Mike Holbrook]

Great thread Prashun, I am picking up great information from this. The Jay van Arsdale videos are very helpful. I have also been reading Chapter 3, Saws "Nokogiri", in Odate's book which provides some history. The text and illustrations in Odate's book are helpful in understanding the evolution of the more traditional methods and reliance on pull vs push teeth. The major factor probably being the Japanese habit of working on the ground where push teeth can be very hard to use.

It makes me wonder about those traditional shoes/boots Odate always seems to work in. They almost seem to be gloves for the feet. Particularly in the case of sawing, the traditional methods seems to use the feet as a second set of hands. I have seen Brian wearing a pair in his video. I am wondering if this is one of the keys to two hand sawing in the traditional Japanese methods. The foot or feet holding the work allowing both hands to be used on the saw?

[Brian Holcombe]

I think it's important to understand that cabinet makers are going to work a little differently than daiku. For instance a mortise layout with ink as opposed to the use of a kebiki gauge. I pretty much only use kebiki and knife marks but if I were working on large timbers I would have to use the ink pot and string line much more.

I think I've watched every video of the sashimono-shi that I could find.

When working big timbers the work is not likely to move unexpectedly when sawing, the same effect is accomplished with your foot or with a vise.

Of course when mortising the butt-clamp is preferred (now don't quote me out of context on that one hahaha).

[Prashun Patel]

Here are three ways that I am practicing with.

In the first, I am using a bench hook. With the stop all the way to the front, I am able to clear the front edge of the bench. This enables me to drop the handle more than with a stop farther back. Since the hook can function as a stop and vice-versa if you flip it over, I was able to make one side into a quick and dirty miter stop. It's not precision, but for my son, it's a step up from the plastic HD one he was using before ;)

The second pic employs a holdfast. I realized mine were not holding well because I hadn't sanded the shafts. Once I did that, their holding power is great and as expected. Here, I am using the pad to secure the work, and the shaft as a stop. This avoids having to use 2 holdfasts, so it's a pretty quick. However, because the clamp point ends up being further from the saw point, there is marginally more vibration than other methods. (Yeah, I know, my bench isn't grain matched :( )

In the third, I am using a right-handed face vise. (yikes! just realized the pic is upside down. SORRY!) This is the most convenient because I can use 2 hands if necessary. However, it requires the piece to be held vertically. If held wide-face-up, there is more vibration than with a holdfast or even a stop. So, I find this one works well for thicker cuts.

I think I prefer the simple stop the best. It's the simplest. I didn't take a pic, but I have a bench on bench which allows me to clamp a batten across the top as a stop. This allows me to secure the piece near the edge with my left hand (dampening vibration), get the toe down on the far side to start the cut, raises the work so I don't have to stoop to get close, and gives me a lot of air space when the cut completes so I'm not constantly karate chopping the bench as with a stop (bad for the bench and the saw, I'm sure!)

[James Pallas]

Prashun, I don't think I understand your reference to vibration. I don't seem to get much vibration when using Japanese saws. I have several saws and the only time I have noticed vibration is when the saw is too big for the material being cut or if the attack angle is off. I wonder if you change any of the above if it would improve your cuts.
Jim

[Prashun Patel]

Jim, it may very well be that my saw is oversized. I am using a 240mm Ryoba. I get some minor chatter with some methods of work holding. When held well, the saw moves quietly through the wood. The chatter causes slight resistance in the pull.

Now, this all could be also that my blade isn't super sharp. Although, it's only a few weeks old and I've taken pretty good care of it.

[Lenore Epstein]

I started pretty recently with Japanese pull saws, but like Prashun I had so much trouble finding info that I've been considering switching to western saws simply because there's so much info on their use. Now I've got a chance, which is nice, because I do like the saws I have, even if they've been a bit challenging.

So, my sincere thanks to Prashun for starting this thread and to everyone else who's posted suggestions and resources! Sawmill Creek comes through for me once again!