Another CBN and Wolverine Jig question

[Brian Kent]

Do you switch your Oneway Wolverine arms from right to left?

I am planning my move from 1 8" CBN wheel to 2. Current CBN is 180 grit. Next one probably 80 grit.

I have kept the 2 parts of the wolverine jig in fixed places - V arm attachment on the right with my 8" CBN. Platform on the left with the 6" white wheel. With a new grinder I will have the power for 2 8" CBN wheels. I kept the Oneway Wolverine arms in fixed positions so that the geometry is the same each time. Do I need to do that? If I keep them in a fixed position then the 80 grit will always be used for 1 kind of tool and the 180 for another kind of tool. That doesn't make sense to me.

So if you switch Wolverine arm sides, do you mark the positions visually, use a spacer between arm and wheel, or do you drill the arms and use a bolt to make the positions exact?

Thanks

[Roger Chandler]

Brian, I took a pencil and marked the arm on the Wolverine jig, to the positions I want to repeat.......just go back to that mark whenever I want to repeat the bowl gouge grind [the one most often used] I use 45 degrees on my bowl gouges, except the bottom feeder at 60 degrees, then I set that up using a raptor gauge. I have to move mine for putting a grind on my detail gouges, spindle gouges, etc which are different positions of the arm, so just mark what you want to be repeatable with a sharpie and perhaps the degree measurement on the arm as well.

[Fred Belknap]

use a spacer between arm and wheel, or do you drill the arms and use a bolt to make the positions exact?

Brian I use pen blanks cut to the length I want to repeat, mark on the piece what it is for like 60 degree gouge or whatever. Quick and easy and accurate.

[John K Jordan]

I switch mine between three wheels on two grinders. I bought a second Wolverine to get extra bases and an extra support arm. I mark the arms but a spacer sounds like a good idea as long as the Wolverine bases are mounted exactly in the same position below all wheels. If you mount one slightly off even the pencil marks won't keep them the same. For me that's the trickiest thing to get exactly right but a flat surface and a good square helps to set them the same. I indexed off the front of the wheel.

We are setting up a woodturning shop at a children's ranch and I think I'll try the spacer idea there.

Since I also use a Tormek bar on one wheel I want the base to be precisely aligned with the wheel as well, to use, for example, the Tormek skew jig.

BTW, if anyone uses two grinders and if you don't know it you can take out the set screw in the Wolverine base, move the cam to make the locking handle tighten in the opposite direction. I do this for one wheel to avoid interference with the handle on an adjacent grinder.

JKJ

[Jamie Straw]

I just got a CBN 180 grit, mounted on one side of 8" grinder. Have heard of people using a length of PVC cut to fit over the arm of the V-pocket, but I just cut a length of small dowel for each setting I might need, wrapped a piece of masking tape and marked it "Bowl Gouge" or whatever. Another thing that would work great would be a piece of outside-corner wood trim. I think I might try that, because then the use can be written right on the wood.

[Joe Bradshaw]

Brian, I have my 80 grit CBN wheel on the left of my grinder and the 180 on the right end. I use the Vari-grind 1 and the fee arm for my spindle gouges. I have a pvc spacer that I slip on to the vee arm. I use the same set up for my bowl gouges, except that I have the Vari-grind 2 for them. I have one platform permanently set for my scrapers. This set up works well for me.
Joe

[Peter Blair]

Brian I am a proponent of two 180 grit wheels. Just works for me. I added a Robo rest to the left side and it says there it is fantastic for repeated angles takes all the messing around out of setting it. I have a list on a board hanging on the side of my grinder listings all the different angles I use and for which tool. On the other side I have drilled the rod (and use a small piece of steel but an appropriate sized allen key would work great too) for the three locations that I grind my gouges. I tried marking the rod and a piece of plastic pipe but I found that this way I was grinding the least amount of metal off my gouges because it leaves no margin for error. I do use the right side for skews and roughing gouges as well but each of mine are different lengths and thus use the felt pen method each time I set up for them but I sharpen these two tools much less frequently than the other tools.
340164

[Reed Gray]

Mike Waldt, who has a bunch of good videos up on You Tube, used a hose clamp as a permanent space block. That would work fine if you have the bases set up identically. If you have a second grinder, it would also have to line up identically to the others. If the grinders are different brands, this may involve some specialized blocks under the grinders or rests to keep every thing the same so you don't have to constantly 'adjust' when you move from one grinder to the next. Took me a while to figure this out when I got the 600 and 1000 grit wheels on a Rikon 1 hp grinder while my standard one is a Baldor.

I am starting to think that for a second wheel, rather than going to 80 grit, it might be worthwhile going to a finer grit in the 600 or so range. Burrs from 80 and 180 are pretty much the same on my scrapers. Big difference on the 600 grit wheel, excellent for fine finish cuts, but not as good for heavy roughing as they go dull more quickly.

robo hippy

[Bob Bouis]

Nice thing about CBN wheels is that they can be remounted easily. You could get three and keep two fine ones on the grinder, switching one out when it's necessary to regrind a tool. That seems to me to be preferable to constantly re-setting your jigs to switch between sharpening gouges and scrapers.

[John K Jordan]

I am starting to think that for a second wheel, rather than going to 80 grit, it might be worthwhile going to a finer grit in the 600 or so range. Burrs from 80 and 180 are pretty much the same on my scrapers. Big difference on the 600 grit wheel, excellent for fine finish cuts, but not as good for heavy roughing as they go dull more quickly.

I agree, and ended up with a 180 and a 600 on one grinder. I did wish for a coarser wheel when shaping new tools, especially big scrapers, so I recently added the 80 grit on a second grinder. However, reshaping tools is not something most of us do in the shop every day. The 180 does work OK for grinding a new profile but takes a little more time.

JKJ

[Jamie Straw]

[Snip]I am starting to think that for a second wheel, rather than going to 80 grit, it might be worthwhile going to a finer grit in the 600 or so range. Burrs from 80 and 180 are pretty much the same on my scrapers. Big difference on the 600 grit wheel, excellent for fine finish cuts, but not as good for heavy roughing as they go dull more quickly.

robo hippy

Now that I have a 180 grit, I'm thinking along those same lines. The scratch pattern from the 180 seems coarser than what I used to get from a 120-grit pink wheel. Makes me wonder how I'll get a shiny, slick grind on a skew with the 180 CBN.

[Reed Gray]

Jamie,
The wheels break in and how fast depends on how much you use them. My 180 grit D Way has a smoother scratch pattern than my 600 grit Woodturning wonders wheel. maybe 5 years of use compared to less than 6 months.

If you are going to shape a scraper, or reshape one, you need 36 grit. High speed grinder, or most saw shops will have a belt sander with that grit. Take it in with a marked profile and let them do the heavy work. Other alternative is to spend a bit more time refining the shape each time as you sharpen, and it could take a year or two. 80 grit CBN will take it off, but not very fast.

robo hippy

[Brian Kent]

Good to hear. In the past I have used a belt sander to re-shape. Good to know that is a legit option. Maybe I'll go with another 180 instead of an 80 if the belt sander can keep doing its job.

[John K Jordan]

If you are going to shape a scraper, or reshape one, you need 36 grit. High speed grinder, [...] a belt sander [... or] spend a bit more time refining the shape each time as you sharpen, and it could take a year or two. 80 grit CBN will take it off, but not very fast.

Reed,

I guess I don't understand this. I recently reground a Thompson 1" square scraper to a curved negative-rake scraper which required removing a lot of material, first to shape the profile than to grind the upper and lower bevels. I did this on a 180 grit CBN wheel. It wasn't real fast but I'm pretty sure it didn't take over 10 minutes.

I got the 180 grit wheel last September and I probably don't use it as much as you use yours but it is less aggressive now than when I got it. Could that [reshaping quickly] be because the wheel is not yet completely "broken in"?

JKJ

[Roger Chandler]

Good to hear. In the past I have used a belt sander to re-shape. Good to know that is a legit option. Maybe I'll go with another 180 instead of an 80 if the belt sander can keep doing its job.Brian, IMHO, I think you will regret going to two 180 grit wheels.....as Reed mentions, they do break in, and give a pretty polished edge but still effectively sharpen. I do everything from finials to bowls, and the 180 grit cbn allows me fine details on the finial, but scrapers work best for me off the 80 grit wheel.

Now, that being said, if I did mostly small spindle stuff from kiln dried wood, I would probably consider the 180 and 320 grit, but go no higher in grits. That range would cover most things except reshaping a grind.....it can be done on a 180 grit, but takes a good bit of time and unnecessary wear on the wheel, IMO. With a 320 grit wheel, once broken in, you will be scary sharp, basically power honing.....again my opinion, but I think one has to find the balance on practical, typical scenario, on usage for the kinds of turnings done the majority of the time.

[Reed Gray]

I don't think I would go for 2 wheels of the same grit unless I have lots of students and each needed their own lathe and sharpening station.

I haven't used a 320 grit wheel so don't really know about them. Having used the 180 for years, when I got a 600 grit wheel, it was a huge step up in the finished edge. To me, the 180 is fine for most applications, but if the wood is at all 'tricky' like punky or one that wants to tear a lot, then the 600 or 1000 grit leaves a better edge for that type of cut on both scrapers and gouges. With the burrs on my scrapers, I can't really tell any difference in the burr from 80 or 180 wheels. Pretty much identical for heavy roughing and high angle shear scraping. I do consider the fine CBN wheels to be power honing, and more effective than hand honing ever was for me.

I do have one set of 'new' CBN wheels that I dig out once in a while, like when my grinders were en route to Atlanta. They do pull off metal much faster than the old ones. I had tried a couple of times to shape a scraper on the 80 grit wheels, and it just tool too long for me to do. Doug's scrapers come with a square nose. Getting a small 1/4 round profile on each side is simple. Turning it into a half circle round nose takes time, and turning it into an inside/swept back to the left scraper takes even more time. A ) arc on the nose is fairly simple. Since I have a heavy duty belt sander, I take them over there if I want to pull off a lot of metal fast. My old wheels are broken in for sure, and it seems to have slowed to almost no change now. The Trend lapping fluid seems to have cleaned it up a lot, but I can't tell if it cuts any faster. Kind of hard to predict break in period. If you are turning every day and do multiple sharpenings, then after 6 months it is probably mostly broken in. It could take a year or two. Even totally broken in, they still cut fast and leave a nice polish.

robo hippy

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie,
The wheels break in and how fast depends on how much you use them. My 180 grit D Way has a smoother scratch pattern than my 600 grit Woodturning wonders wheel. maybe 5 years of use compared to less than 6 months. [Snip]

Oh, this is depressing. While my bowl gouges and scrapers are doing OK with Ken's 180 grit wheel, on fairly un-challenging wood, the skew is far from what it should be, and I'll be turning some figured maple and cherry soon. To wait 5 years, or multiples of that (you sharpen 100 times to my one I bet:eek:). Do you think the difference is solely due to the amount of break-in, or is there a difference in how well the abrasive is distributed and screened for uniform size?

[Brian Kent]

Jamie, just speaking for myself here, I love doing the research and getting advice, even when turners with far more experience that myself are recommending 80 / 180, or 180 / 180, or Belt sander / 180 / 600. The good new this tells me is that when it's time for the next CBN wheel, whatever I choose, it will be a CBN wheel, which is great, and will be even better than my current 1 CBN wheel and white wheel.

What I really need to do is what Reed Gray does (not what he says) and buy another half-dozen grinders and one of every kind of CBN and diamond and whatever else is next. :D

[Reed Gray]

If there is any difference in the screening of the abrasives or how even the spread is, I am guessing it is so small that we can't tell. I believe most of the screening is electrostatic, kind of like what they do with most of the abrasives now where the particles are charged and the charging does a better job than screening for getting even particles. In using the D Way, Rizza, Cuttermaster, and Optigrind, there was no difference in cutting/sharpening other than 80, 180, or what ever grits. Even with my broken in wheels, when comparing edges to a newer wheel of the same grit, I don't really notice. I may need to find an electron microscope to be able to compare. Any one have one hanging out in their basement????

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

... Doug's scrapers come with a square nose. Getting a small 1/4 round profile on each side is simple. Turning it into a half circle round nose takes time, and turning it into an inside/swept back to the left scraper takes even more time.

...Kind of hard to predict break in period. If you are turning every day and do multiple sharpenings, then after 6 months it is probably mostly broken in. It could take a year or two. Even totally broken in, they still cut fast and leave a nice polish.

Reed,

These are some of the scrapers I reshaped from Thompson 3/4" and 1" square scrapers. I shaped them on the aluminum 180 grit CBN wheel I've been using for about 9 months. I'm sure I don't turn and grind as much as you do. I guess only time will tell if it gets any less aggressive with more use.

340248

I'm grinding these scrapers a bit like those Glenn Lucas demonstrated at the TAW symposium.

JKJ

[Brian Kent]

Reed, we are going to count on you to buy an assortment of electron microscopes and find out which is the best zap for the buck.

[John K Jordan]

Oh, this is depressing. While my bowl gouges and scrapers are doing OK with Ken's 180 grit wheel, on fairly un-challenging wood, the skew is far from what it should be, and I'll be turning some figured maple and cherry soon. To wait 5 years, or multiples of that (you sharpen 100 times to my one I bet:eek:). Do you think the difference is solely due to the amount of break-in, or is there a difference in how well the abrasive is distributed and screened for uniform size?

Jamie, I too want the skews as sharp as I can get them. For years I've sharpened them (and my gouges) on a Tormek water wheel and the edge was very good. I tried a 220 grit CBN and it was way too coarse, but that wheel was certainly not sufficiently "broken in".

So I bought a 10" 600 grit CBN wheel for the Tormek and it was much better, although not nearly as good as the water wheel, although it is smoother not than when it was new. I suspect from Reeds comments that it is not yet been used enough. If it doesn't get better with age I might get another Tormek and go back to the water wheel for the skews, although I'd hate that. I also thought about getting a 1000 or 1200 grit wheel for the Tormek but that's an expensive game to play just for fun.

But maybe I'm expecting too much. After sharpening on the 600 grit Tormek wheel, I use the leather honing wheel and/or a leather strop loaded with honing compound to knock off the burr and polish the edge a little. These skews (and spindle gouges) seem to cut fine - I have turned some spindles from hard woods and they cut cleanly. I do wish I had kept one skew freshly sharpened on the water wheel for comparison to the CBN wheel for both cuts and microscope.

All this gives me an idea - the maker or seller or 3rd party could provide CBN wheels that are already broken in to the point of stability. Enough of guessing and waiting. This would remove the time/use factor and make comparisons a lot easier. I can envision a room full of machines grinding around the clock.

JKJ

[Jamie Straw]

[Snip]All this gives me an idea - the maker or seller or 3rd party could provide CBN wheels that are already broken in to the point of stability. Enough of guessing and waiting. This would remove the time/use factor and make comparisons a lot easier. I can envision a room full of machines grinding around the clock.

JKJ
I was just wondering today how to break it in faster. I have a couple worthless HHS tools sitting around, perhaps I should just grind them down to nothing.:D

[Roger Chandler]

I was just wondering today how to break it in faster. I have a couple worthless HHS tools sitting around, perhaps I should just grind them down to nothing.:D The way I broke in my first CBN D-Way wheel was to take my BIG Alan Lacer skew and change the bevel to suit me. Also did a couple smaller skews, and that smoothed the grit surface.

I sold that D way wheel to a friend, and he is in love with it.....I now use two Hurricane CBN Wheels, and just normal sharpening has proven to be enough. I have made some heavy scraper grinds with the 80 grit wheel. I got a
1.50" scraper from Serious Toolworks, and shaped that the way I wanted.

Both the 80 & 180 can cut aggressively if I use too much pressure, but especially the 180 gives me a nicely polished bevel now, and I have not had them a year yet. The Hurricane wheels are just as good quality as the D-Way I had, and cost almost half as much.

[Brian Kent]

I tried ordering one directly from CBN, but they kept on insisting I make a pledge to the 700 club.

[Reed Gray]

I wouldn't worry about forcing them to break in. One session with a big scraper will take some of the new edge off, but it is still a long way from being broken in. Just keep at it. The edge off a new 180 grit wheel is still finer than the edge off a 120 grit standard wheel.

robo hippy

[Jamie Straw]

I wouldn't worry about forcing them to break in. One session with a big scraper will take some of the new edge off, but it is still a long way from being broken in. Just keep at it. The edge off a new 180 grit wheel is still finer than the edge off a 120 grit standard wheel.

robo hippy

The green cherry I've been working the last couple of days is going a long ways to breaking them in (did my scrapers already). I'm sharpening more often than I ever have, partly because the wood's tough and partly because it's so easy to sharpen well now!!

[Roger Chandler]

The green cherry I've been working the last couple of days is going a long ways to breaking them in (did my scrapers already). I'm sharpening more often than I ever have, partly because the wood's tough and partly because it's so easy to sharpen well now!!

Most turners when learning or with less than a couple of years turning do not sharpen often enough.......some for fear of grinding away expensive tools, or not realizing how quickly the sharp edge goes away, but sharpening often will give you a better surface off the tool, less sanding and more enjoyment all the way around.

[John K Jordan]

Most turners when learning or with less than a couple of years turning do not sharpen often enough.....

I was surprised to find that some turners never set up for or learned to sharpen at all and just took their tools to the local Woodcraft and paid to have them sharpened. I simply can't imagine - turn and struggle until the tool is way overdue for sharpening, drive to Woodcraft, drive back the next day to get the gouge, repeat. Ack. The funniest thing, at least one of those guys never did much woodturning and ended up quitting. Imagine that.

I always repeat the old mantra to new turners and students: If you can't sharpen, you can't turn wood.

JKJ

[Brian Kent]

At a turners club last year a guy had a fist full of tools that "might need sharpening" because they didn't work as well as they used to. He watched a bowl-turning demo and saw how quickly the guy returned to touch up the edge and what a big difference it made each time. He had a really good laugh at himself when he saw what is actually needed.