Old Sargent planes - restore / collectors value?

[Eric Sarno]

Hi everyone, I bought a few old Sargent planes a while ago. In looking up online, it appears that they are quite old, some circa early 1900s. The 409 smoothing plane seems to be a 'type-1' after reading and looking at pictures, which puts it before 1900. The estimated value on the website says $500-1,000 which I find hard to believe.

Anyways, I am looking to see if there is actually (in the real world) any real collector value to these, as I'm not a collector. If it is and I could sell it for a pretty penny great! I'll buy a lie Nielsen and let someone preserve it. But if not, I'd love to shine them up and make them look nice again.

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[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Eric and Welcome to the Creek.

Some nice finds you have.

If some collector wants to take the #409 off your hands and give you a pile of money, go for it.

I couldn't find any listings on ebay in current listings or in the completed listings for a type 1. Maybe they are quite the rarity.

You may already know the price of 'collector' planes depends on three things, condition, condition and condition. Repainting it, shining it up and many other things done to make it look better would actually lower the price.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Jim's advice is corect-"restoring" may very well lower the value significantly! Clean the dust off, do not sand the patina! Maybe a coat of wax and that's it, if truly collectable.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I don't know where the value for the 409 came from, but here in the east they are not rare. I had one for a few years and sold it for $35 to a fellow member of our NH guild who wanted to get into hand planes. To my way of thinking Sargent planes are a step up in construction, design, and quality from the Stanley bench planes.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know where the value for the 409 came from, but here in the east they are not rare. I had one for a few years and sold it for $35 to a fellow member of our NH guild who wanted to get into hand planes. To my way of thinking Sargent planes are a step up in construction, design, and quality from the Stanley bench planes.

I think the value may be that it is a type 1, pre-lateral adjuster, 1887-1901. At that time Stanley planes had a lateral adjuster. Sargent and others had to wait for patents to run out. Their early planes might not have been as popular with buyers at the time. Which today would make it a rarer plane to find.

jtk

[don wilwol]

I collect Sargents. I've never seen a type 1 409 sell for near that. It does have some collector value, but most don't even know it's a Sargent type 1. I paid $10 for the one I have, and I've picked up a few off eBay for well under $50.

Also what's he 700 series. If it's a 707 it has some value.

[Glen Canaday]

708 it looks like. I can see the cast digits in the pic when I blow it up. Still a cool find, imo.

[Eric Sarno]

Thanks everyone, I figured the real value wasn't as wonderful as the found prices. Because of that, I've decided to fix these up, since I do think it's cool that they're so old, particularly the 409.

I have gotten it tuned up a bit, though the blade needs another round of sharpening and the sole some more flattening. But I think it is working pretty well so far (again, still new to hand planes and learning the technique). I think I need to learn how to seat the blade to the frog better, as there is a bit of a gap.

I am just getting into hand tools after spending a while building up a collection of old USA power tools from the 40s-50s. I kind of wish I had started out by seeing what was capable with hand tools (Going into my dad's workshop I only ever saw power tools), but I do enjoy the restoration process. I also enjoy the craigslist hunting!

And Glen is right, the auto-set is a 708.

I cleaned this up with some #0000 steel wool and mineral spirits, then coated everything with some boiled linseed oil / paste wax. It's got some wood dust on it now, when I'm done all three maybe I'll clean them and take some cool pictures. As I was taking the plane apart, the handle was barely hanging on with a big crack and broke in what I've seen is a very common spot. The wood was oily, so I scored it with a razor blade and used superglue. Not the perfect job, but it actually kind of blends in with the patina of the handle. The threads in the cast iron are a bit stripped for the handle as well. I wrapped an piece of a Sam Adams Summer can around them and it tightened up pretty well. Took a few passes on a scrap piece of ash and no tear out.

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[Jim Koepke]

Thanks everyone, I figured the real value wasn't as wonderful as the found prices. Because of that, I've decided to fix these up, since I do think it's cool that they're so old, particularly the 409.

I have gotten it tuned up a bit, though the blade needs another round of sharpening and the sole some more flattening. But I think it is working pretty well so far (again, still new to hand planes and learning the technique). I think I need to learn how to seat the blade to the frog better, as there is a bit of a gap.

[snip]



It is kind of a good feeling using tools that were around before our folks were born.

Looking at your pictures, your blade to frog problem may be due to the chip breaker having too much curvature and bowing the blade. This an be easily checked with a short straight edge. Correcting it can be a bit tricky, but not impossible.

jtk

[Allan Speers]

708 it looks like. I can see the cast digits in the pic when I blow it up. Still a cool find, imo.

Looks like a 708 Auto-Set. You don't see those every day. Nice.

[Kees Heiden]

Good work! Planing a piece with a knot and getting good results! Great!

Btw, there is always a gap between the blade and the frog on a double iron plane. That's normal and doesn't need fixing. As long as the blade is firmly bedded near the edge over the full width.

[don wilwol]

Excellent progress.

[Chris Hachet]

I find that I enjoy using old tools, seems like you just found an excellent user.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Not to hijack Eric's thread, but I'd like to hear thoughts on when to actually "restore" vs just clean up. Eric's jointer has a good bit of rust and pitting. I just picked up an old round sided Bedrock 605 with similar conditions. Almost no japanning, and after a thorough cleaning it needs some lapping and probably some kind of enamel in place of japanning. At what point is refinishing warranted?

[Jim Koepke]

At what point is refinishing warranted?

When it will not be detrimental to the value of the plane.

Most of my planes do not have 'collector value.' As users they are much more pleasant to use with a nice coat of enamel. Done poorly refinishing can lower the value of a tool with only user value.

A lot of my planes would get a good cleaning and a new coat of enamel if I had more time. They feel much better in use than the ones with chips and/or missing their japanning.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

It is kind of a good feeling using tools that were around before our folks were born.

Looking at your pictures, your blade to frog problem may be due to the chip breaker having too much curvature and bowing the blade. This an be easily checked with a short straight edge. Correcting it can be a bit tricky, but not impossible.

jtk

I would put a new chip breaker on it if I wanted one. I would keep the old one to restore the plane to condition it's in now if you decided to at some time.

[Jim Koepke]

I would put a new chip breaker on it if I wanted one. I would keep the old one to restore the plane to condition it's in now if you decided to at some time.

The problem with chip breakers is the manufacturers all made them slightly different. If the adjusting slot is too far or too close to the mating face it is almost impossible to get the blade to adjust properly.

jtk

[don wilwol]

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/26/to-restore-a-hand-plane-or-to-not-restore-a-hand-plane/

[Allan Speers]

This debate always cracks me up.

Consider this: Suppose you were looking through an old hardware store that had closed & was selling off inventory. Buried in the back room, you discover a small cache of absolutely NOS Stanley type 1 hand planes, and buy them all for a dream price.

So, you get them home, and decide to sell 1/2 of them off. Well, no one is going to believe they are in original condition. Not in THAT good a shape! So, do you start scratching off some of the japanning, and adding nicks to the screws? Of course not.

So, how is that different from stripping and re-japannig the same vintage Stanley, if you find it with 20% of the japanning gone & mild rust?

Just use real japanning, etc. Five years later, not a soul will be able to tell the difference.

[lowell holmes]

The problem with chip breakers is the manufacturers all made them slightly different. If the adjusting slot is too far or too close to the mating face it is almost impossible to get the blade to adjust properly.

jtk

That's the reason for keeping the old chip breaker if the replacement does not work.

I have purchased chip breaker/ irons from Lee Valley that work fine in my 604 and 605 planes. You might explore that approach. They are for Stanley planes. They are much superior to the stock irons and breakers.

[Jim Koepke]

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/01/26/to-restore-a-hand-plane-or-to-not-restore-a-hand-plane/

Thanks Don, that was an enjoyable and informative read. In my case he was "preaching to the choir."

jtk