Upper Kitchen Cabinets

[Mark W Pugh]

So, I'm planning some FF kitchen cabinets and don't know if I'm thinking the process correctly. I have a row of uppers that will have different height of cabinets, imagine cabinets over the stove combined with regular height cabinets, for example. Now, I'm thinking that 3 separate cabinets will need to be built, then the FF's attached to each other during the mounting on the wall.

My question, since the FF extends slightly past the edge of the actually box, there will be a visible gab between each cabinet as viewed from underneath. I was planning on mounting some type of thin material to the bottom of the uppers to hide the gaps. What do you guys think, or how do you handle this?

Thanks.

[Patrick Testerman]

I'm by no means an expert, but the underside of cabinets is generally not very visible without stooping and craning your neck, so I'm not sure any filler will be necessary. The cabinets we had installed in our kitchen don't have any fillers and the only time I noticed the gap was when I was installing some under cabinet lighting

[Jerry Miner]

I build cabinets for a living. I don't see the need for a FF extending past the carcase. Why not make it flush?

Otherwise, you can make a thin (like 1/4 ply) "skin" to fit the underside of the shorter cabinet. Pin with a few small brads.

[Mark W Pugh]

Jerry, my thought process was to have some adjustment, in case a side warped/bowed slightly. Again, just a beginner at this stuff.

[Wayne Lomman]

Mark, I make cabinets professionally and I also question the need for the face frame to over hang where the cabinets butt together. By all means leave your over hang at the ends, but for the adjoining sides, you will find they will pull together tightly when you install them. The gap underneath may not be overly visible but it is a very efficient grime trap. It is always a source of entertainment to demolish a spotlessly clean old kitchen done this way and watch the lady of the house throw up her hands in horror at the hidden grime. Cheers

[John TenEyck]

If it's over a stove you would likely have a microwave or vent hood under the shorter cabinet which will cover the gaps. If it's in some other location where the gap would be visible then I would build the FF's flush, as others suggested. I just installed two vanity cabinets yesterday with flush face frames, and the joint between them is tight, tight, tight. Another advantage is you can easily screw the cabinet boxes together rather than just the FF's.) You will need to edge band the bottom edges of the cabinet sides, too, if you are using plywood or Melamine, and don't want to see the cut edges.

I solved this problem when I built my kitchen by installing under cabinet lighting in a separate piece of Melamine that screws to the bottom of the cabinets. That gave me a place to hide the wiring, too.

John

[Mark W Pugh]

Thanks for all the inputs!

[Jim Becker]

Fill the gap if you feel the need or install a thin plywood "bottom" that crosses all the cabinets for a very clean look. That might be appropriate in situations where there is either direct view of the cabinet bottoms for some reason or indirect view due to reflection on other materials.

[Neil Gaskin]

I'm not sure why you need to build them as separate units. You can gang build a wall section of cabinets of varying heights with a single face frame and box. It's easier to install gang built cabinetry than individual boxes and it's also less time-consuming to build and finish. Another advantage is a more efficient use of space and materials.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm not sure why you need to build them as separate units.
That right there.

Check out the Sommerfeld videos & the Sommerfeld router bits.
I can also highly recommend using the Sommerfeld "feather board".

The short version of the method is - you put together the face frames, which are pocket screwed together and grooved, and insert the tongues of the side panels into the face frames & glue them up.

It really makes the whole process a lot easier.

Re. the "feather board".
That comes in handy and is almost a requirement for one step in the whole process. A climb cut on the router table is recommended for grooving the plywood at one point. The feather board (really a spring board) more than pays for itself at that point.

[Robby Tacheny]

18" is standard height from counter top to cabinet bottom and you'll pretty much NEVER see below the cabinets at that height. If you decide to go higher, like 20" or more you have more of a chance of seeing the bottoms. We went 20" and still can't see the bottoms and I am only 5'8". At 18" height, a lot of the newer blenders won't fit under the cabinets. So before you set that height, consider what you'll be keeping on the counter top.

Don't forget that those gaps from the face frame actually can be used to feed cables for under cabinet lighting. I have regular outlets just at the top of my cabinets out of sight that are made hot via a light switch. I have transformers up top and feed low voltage cables through gaps, in my case filler strips at the ends, to the bottom side of the cabinet. I had to drill a few 3/16 inch holes on the sides at the bottom for the cables and I was in business.

Later on if my LED's burn out, I can easily remove/replace.

With that said, I think building them as one unit would work fine and would maximize the space. However, it will be very heavy to hoist into place. After just finishing my kitchen, I can tell you that EVERYTHING has to be thought out ahead of time or you can get into some "uh oh" situations and have to comprimise.

Robby

[Biff Phillips]

I'm not sure why you need to build them as separate units. You can gang build a wall section of cabinets of varying heights with a single face frame and box. It's easier to install gang built cabinetry than individual boxes and it's also less time-consuming to build and finish. Another advantage is a more efficient use of space and materials.

I am not saying your suggestion is not valuable.
However, it's a lot easier for a one man team to install 3 separate uppers than one giant unit.

OP, if you want to build separate units:
Google "Monarch Z clips" for a very slim "french cleat". I bought the long pieces of aluminum cleat. It took time to make them perfectly level and flush (you may have to do minor shimming under the cleat if your walls are not perfect. But once you get them up, it's easy to do the actual hanging and the uppers come out perfect.

Then you use "Pony Cabinet Claws" to pull the units together and screw them together through the face frame.

The cleat is near the top of the cabinet, it supports all the weight. You may have to shim the between the back of the cabinet and the wall (at the bottom) to get everything flush. Then put a ew screws in the bottom. I like to use "FastCap Powerhead screws" to screw the cabinets together and at the bottom, because you can get plugs in hardwood and stain them to match, it looks really good.

[Mike Schuch]

I guess it depends on the size of the gang built cabinet! I "gang built" a cabinet for a wall in my small kitchen 20 years ago. Installation was a NIGHTMARE!!!!... even with 2 of us installing the cabinet. I have always built separates since.

I have always left the face frames proud of the carcasses. I guess this isn't a requirement, it is just they way I have always done it so I have some room to maneuver. I have never worried about the gaps at the bottoms of the upper cabinets and I have never noticed them. I don't build cabinets for a living.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The 4 above the sink here are one unit, then there's the corner cabinet, and the 4 above the stove are another unit.
I just stuck cleats on the backs and they went up like a charm.
My sick disabled old carcass & my wife installed all three of them by ourselves.

[Mark W Pugh]

Then you use "Pony Cabinet Claws" to pull the units together and screw them together through the face frame.



Anyone know where I can find these with the drill guides?

[Sam Murdoch]

I'm in the "gang up the uppers" camp. As Rich E. writes above, hanging the 3 piece unit off a cleat is a simple install and the entire assembly is much cleaner looking. I use a Gil Lift so hanging wall cabinets - even 3 or 4 as a unit - by myself is never an issue but hang a cleat and get a friend and you will have an easy job of it too. Leave the doors off until hung.

You need to design the cabinet to allow for a cleat or a thin profile 2 piece metal cabinet hanger (like a french cleat).

As for the finished bottom or not - high end custom often get the extra treatment of a finished bottom but most stock cabinets opt out of that feature. Not a deal breaker unless your clients are especially short :). Building a face frame as a unit to fit over the ganged up cabinets eliminates the issue of the face frame going pass the cabinet sides.

[jack duren]

I am not saying your suggestion is not valuable.
However, it's a lot easier for a one man team to install 3 separate uppers than one giant unit.

OP, if you want to build separate units:
Google "Monarch Z clips" for a very slim "french cleat". I bought the long pieces of aluminum cleat. It took time to make them perfectly level and flush (you may have to do minor shimming under the cleat if your walls are not perfect. But once you get them up, it's easy to do the actual hanging and the uppers come out perfect.

Then you use "Pony Cabinet Claws" to pull the units together and screw them together through the face frame.

The cleat is near the top of the cabinet, it supports all the weight. You may have to shim the between the back of the cabinet and the wall (at the bottom) to get everything flush. Then put a ew screws in the bottom. I like to use "FastCap Powerhead screws" to screw the cabinets together and at the bottom, because you can get plugs in hardwood and stain them to match, it looks really good.

The pony cabinet claws are a waste. Better to find a universal clamp for use after the installation..The clips are a waste as well. Cabinets are permanent and just need to be screwed to the wall and to each other. Cabinet installation doesn't need to be complicated,its a very simply process if they are measured and built corectly.

[Biff Phillips]

The pony cabinet claws are a waste. Better to find a universal clamp for use after the installation..The clips are a waste as well. Cabinets are permanent and just need to be screwed to the wall and to each other. Cabinet installation doesn't need to be complicated,its a very simply process if they are measured and built corectly.

I disagree. Neither is a waste.

The aluminum cleats are much thinner than you can make a wood cleat. Thus you aren't giving up as much cabinet depth to accomodate the cleat.
Sure, it's possible to hang cabinets without a cleat.. But cleats make it easier for me and give me better results, and really don't cost that much.
If you want to do it another way, that's fine, but it's a bit harsh to call them a waste.

Looks like the Pony Cabinet Claws aren't being made anymore. They also made the job easier. No gaps between my cabinets. I am sure there are other ways to do it, but again, I am an amateur, and I am willing to pay $70 or whatever the clamps cost in order to have the job come out looking perfect. $70 is nothing compared to the amount I spent on labor (my own time) and materials. But yea, you could use quick grips or something else to rig up a similar solution.. I guess since the pony clamps aren't made anymore, that's the only option..

[jack duren]

There a waste from someone who is not an amateur.....

[Biff Phillips]

There a waste from someone who is not an amateur.....

lol.. I think the OP is an amateur, otherwise he wouldn't have asked the question.

[Neil Gaskin]

We are hardly amateurs and we use the face clamps regularly.

[jack duren]

We are hardly amateurs and we use the face clamps regularly.

Never found them beneficial. Maybe cool to the GC when he/she is looking;)

[Neil Gaskin]

Different ways to skin a cat and all.. I find them useful to plane out face frames on less than perfect walls. Most of the time it's quick grip clamps simply because you can operate one handed.

I was cranky last night. Sorry about that.