Dev or others... Martin saw?

[Gary Sutherland]

Thanks for all the responses to my recent questions about big ol' arn table saws. Dev, you mentioned that you have or had a Martin T-17 slider. Someone is advertising a T-17 stationary table version. What is your opinion of that saw for ripping with a power feeder. As I said before, I don't want something with a slider. And I know nothing about Martin saws other than they are top of the line.

The asking price is not what I would consider a 'bargain', let alone a 'steal', but maybe it's negotiable. Do you have an idea what a fair price would be?

Do any of you ever feel like you spend more time looking at tools you want than using the ones you have?

Thanks...

Gary

[lou sansone]

Good post and I hope dev will do the pleasure of taking some photos of his martin. I have seen one or two for sale and also wondered about them.


lou

[Dev Emch]

Will try to get pix later today or on sat. After seeing Lou's shop, I am embassed to show my pig pen.:o

The T-17 never had an integrated sliding table. Rather, it has a large beam on which a carriage rides. Thus, the edge of the slider is about 8 or so inches left of the blade line and the saw uses a large throat plate.

The T-17 was made for many years and you can sorta tell how old they are based on the fence and the tilt system style. Note that the T-17 has TWO concentric controls. The inner one with a normal crank like structure controls height and the outer one with three knobs controls your tilt.

The motors used are heavy duty european motors and are rated at about 6.5 HP give or take as they are sold in KW and not HP. The US version of this saw was shipped with a 1.25 inch arbor and if you need dado blades, you need a dado nut. I have an engineering drawing from martin on this nut. This is one of the metal lathe projects I have lined up but have not gotton to yet. I am replacing a control panel in my hardinge lathe so its down for the short time. There are very few parts that martin still makes for the T-17. That does not mean your high and dry. Most OWWM type machines in which the parent company still exists charge so much for the parts that they may as well have gone under. The good news is that the parts in need are often generic and can be had from a number of sources locally at reasonable prices or they can be made by "Home Shop Machinists" or shops looking to make a little extra cash on the side. The large fancy CNC job shops always say no.... its the one or two man shop in the bad side of town that says yes. And sadly, these guys are machinists who have been at for 30 or more years and can actually machine something without a computer.

I often make parts for others as well in between everything else. So parts is never a major issue with woodcutting machines.

The martin T-17 has a feature that most of you guys have never seen. It actually has THREE speeds! For wood, I keep it at its center belt position.

Martins do come on the used market but you need to do your homework in knowing how much they are worth. The newer martins from about the mid 70s to the early 90s are more valuable than the older T-17 which go back quite a ways. Both are good but you need to know what your dealing with. Does it have modern controls including a red cut out mushroom on the base casting? That would also be a modern version.

Some had sliding tables and others did not as this was an option. The tables are excellent but they have their flaws. The beam is heavy and often in the way on some cuts. You can slide the beam backwards but its heavy! Very heavy! The other complaint is that the angle cutting capability is a bit lacking. I will machine some new parts to correct this eventually. But if the saw has no sliding table, this reduces its value quite a bit!

Many T-17s were also equiped with a scoring motor. This involves an extra motor and height adjust knobs and systems and switches in the main electrical box. This was used to score sheet goods. Again, this was an option.

Often you will find a single dovetailed mitre slot but no mitre gage. I have yet to even see a T-17 mitre gage. These may have been options as well and its almost as if no one ever ordered them. So dont be surprised if the saw has no mitre gage. IF it does, please contact me with a PM as i really wish to see one. I guess sliding tables makes this device obsolete.

Lastly, you need to review the fence. There were a few different fence designs in use. One fence had a tilting face. Then there was the micrometer adjustable fence such as the one I have. I am very happy with my fence but it has one major flaw. I have to two rub slots worn into the cast iron table of my saw. In time, I will machine these out and replace them with brass wear strips that sit flush with the saw. How this happened i do not know. But it appears that there are three Delron plastic knobs that sit under the fence and ride the table. One in the middle of the table and the other two inline with each other along the front edge. The guy I bought the saw from replaced these with the current Delron plastic. Its possible that the orig was something else or just wore out and exposed a metal head. The wear strips are currently about 5 to 20 thousandths deep and are more cosmetic than functional right now. But should you get the same fence, check on this. I have seen a few T-17s after I bought mine and they did not have these wear strips. So one has to consider unrealistic abuse as one source. Another option would for me to machine out a slot and super glue in flush mounting, heat treated tool steel strips. These would be almost invisable and would never ever wear out again.

I guess the fence pin issue cited above is my only major complaint. If you can find a good deal on a martin T-17, go ahead and buy it. They are awsome table saws. But they are traditional saws and some may consider this design obsolete in the presence of the longer saws such as the one Paul showed off yesterday. Right now, I am cutting lots of sheet goods for work related activities. But the truth is I hate plywood and most of the work I do for myself uses hardwood. Lou has a similar viewpoint. So for now, I tend to prefer the traditional footprint. The sliders on machines such the new T-73 are so large and heavy that it awkward to do tiny precise cross cuts with it.

But the T-17 with a feeder will work well as a ripping saw. Better than some northfield #4 saws. Northfields came with a variety of motors and the one made by Doerr has issues in automated ripping operations. Some of these motors have had reports of delaminating rotor plates. This was caused by the heavy full on ripping caused by using an autofeeder all day. If your using this saw to feed a moulder and your running several hours a day, you may be better off with a straight line rip saw such as Deil or mathison. But this means your ripping truckloads of lumber per week as you would in a flooring mill or large cabinet shop such as Thomasville. You are going to need to run mountains of lumber before this issue becomes significant enough to think twice about it! If your making reclaimed flooring from old buildings for example, then the martin approach will work just fine for you. Just remember, there are always downsides to what looks like a better, greener solution. Yes, a Deil can outproduce a martin with a feeder but then a martin does not have that complex chain roller feed system which costs a ton of money to repair or replace!

[Pete Harbin]

I vote that we find Dev a new avatar picture. What was that dog's name from the Rocky and Bullwinkle show? The one that wore glasses. That little red headed boy would come and ask him a question, and then he would draw some diagrams on the chalkboard and then they would hop in a time machine and go back and experience history.

It's really cool having you you here Dev. You boost the value of the site and the knowledge content.

Pete

[Ken Garlock]

I vote that we find Dev a new avatar picture. What was that dog's name from the Rocky and Bullwinkle show? The one that wore glasses. That little red headed boy would come and ask him a question, and then he would draw some diagrams on the chalkboard and then they would hop in a time machine and go back and experience history.

It's really cool having you you here Dev. You boost the value of the site and the knowledge content.

Pete

The dog was Mr. Peabody who had a pet boy. :rolleyes: A subtle joke in itself.

[Richard Wolf]

I vote that we find Dev a new avatar picture.



That would inply he had an old one!
Dev is long on knowledge and short on pictures.

Richard

[Dev Emch]

Naaa. ya cannt associate me with Mr. Peabody. That dog was actually smart. Me? I am not smart. I need to ask you guys the following....


What is an avatar picture???????

Seen it mentioned a couple of times. Whats the process?

[Jim W. White]

Here ya go Dev.


Just save it to your computer and then upload it in you User Profile/Avatar section.

http://myweb.cableone.net/jimnbeck/title-peabody.gif

[Richard Wolf]

Dev, it's the little picture most of us have in the top left of our posts.

Richard

[Steve Stube]

Gary, Dev, I'm hoping you can share at least a ball park value on these Martins. BTW, I have some old miter gages not sure of the brand, if you can tell me what shape/size slot the Martin takes I will check to see if I have one that would fit.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, I don't know what the vintage Martin hardware is going for, but the sale brochure they just sent me for some reason (likely because I inquired about the Aigner accessories they also distribute) has numbers. The "basic" T73 (6.3' slider and 5.5hp) goes for $19,900 list... The CNC version with all the bells and whistles and a 10'10" slider lists for $60,690. Ching ching!!

[Christian Aufreiter]

Steve, I don't know what the vintage Martin hardware is going for, but the sale brochure they just sent me for some reason (likely because I inquired about the Aigner accessories they also distribute) has numbers. The "basic" T73 (6.3' slider and 5.5hp) goes for $19,900 list... The CNC version with all the bells and whistles and a 10'10" slider lists for $60,690. Ching ching!!

I wonder why someone should spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a "classic" style format sliding saw. $ 20000 or 30000 might be ok. But $ 60000? :confused: Why not get something like this (http://www.holzher.com/seite40.htm) or this (http://www.panhans.com/rtc-panhans/en_panel_beam_saws)?

Regards,

Christian

[lou sansone]

Thanks for all the responses to my recent questions about big ol' arn table saws. Dev, you mentioned that you have or had a Martin T-17 slider. Someone is advertising a T-17 stationary table version. What is your opinion of that saw for ripping with a power feeder. As I said before, I don't want something with a slider. And I know nothing about Martin saws other than they are top of the line.

The asking price is not what I would consider a 'bargain', let alone a 'steal', but maybe it's negotiable. Do you have an idea what a fair price would be?

Do any of you ever feel like you spend more time looking at tools you want than using the ones you have?

Thanks...

Gary

well I finally reread your post and now understand what you are looking for. Have you looked at the Rockwell / Delta or Invicta RT-40 table saw? I have one and it is a monster and would really be great for what you are asking about. 7.5 hp and 16" blade with a riving knife. I am not selling mine at this time, but they do come around and would be far less than the martin.

lou

[John Renzetti]

Steve, I don't know what the vintage Martin hardware is going for, but the sale brochure they just sent me for some reason (likely because I inquired about the Aigner accessories they also distribute) has numbers. The "basic" T73 (6.3' slider and 5.5hp) goes for $19,900 list... The CNC version with all the bells and whistles and a 10'10" slider lists for $60,690. Ching ching!!

Hi Jim, That big Martin would look great in your shop. :)
Actually you can get a T-73 for a lot less than 60k. Does $40k sound better. I'm sure Dr Swimbo would understand.
Christian from Austria makes a good point. When you get into the stratosphere with these saws, a beam saw might make more sense. However some of the beam saws I saw at Vegas made that big Martin seem like a bargin.
take care,
John
PS to Lou, I vote for you getting a T-17. They do come up every once in a while.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, John...the sale is for 10% off (half the normal required deposit...) Even then, it would be more money than the Highlander Hybrid Limited I have on order...and it has less seats. :D I think I'll stick to MM or Felder when I move to a slider... ;)

[lou sansone]

still waiting for dev to show some photos of his t-17... come on now your shop can't be that messy. ;)
lou

[Richard Wolf]

I'm also still waiting for pics.

Richard

[Matthew Dworman]

HI Gary - I have a martin T-70. It's an older model - 1980 but it is a workhorse. I believe this saw runs about $40,000 new, but I picked it up at an auction for $2K - . If you want something for ripping and don't want a slider, why not just go with a new straight-line-rip saw. You can get a new one for $7-10K in "starter" quality, and top of the line runs $15-20??

[lou sansone]

HI Gary - I have a martin T-70. It's an older model - 1980 but it is a workhorse. I believe this saw runs about $40,000 new, but I picked it up at an auction for $2K - . If you want something for ripping and don't want a slider, why not just go with a new straight-line-rip saw. You can get a new one for $7-10K in "starter" quality, and top of the line runs $15-20??

hi matt... how about some photos of the martin. we would be very interested
thanks
lou

[Gary Sutherland]

I'm going to take a look at the Martin T-17 that's for sale. From the verbal description, it's an older one with a cast iron base cabinet.

Lou, I've looked at the Invicta/Delta RT-40 before, and they do look like nice saws. I actually have an Invicta 16" jointer which I bought new a couple of years ago. I bought it at about 40% below what they're selling for now. The "place in Florida" was selling Invicta stuff at great prices, but apparently other dealers didn't like it and made a pact with Invicta that would have forced them to increase prices; instead they basically dropped the line. I should have bought the saw at the same time as the jointer.

How would you rate the RT-40 compared to the older Delta/Rockwell 14" saws that are on the market used?

Thanks...

Gary

[Dev Emch]

Note. Both newer and older T-17s had cast iron base cabinets.

[lou sansone]

I'm going to take a look at the Martin T-17 that's for sale. From the verbal description, it's an older one with a cast iron base cabinet.

Lou, I've looked at the Invicta/Delta RT-40 before, and they do look like nice saws. I actually have an Invicta 16" jointer which I bought new a couple of years ago. I bought it at about 40% below what they're selling for now. The "place in Florida" was selling Invicta stuff at great prices, but apparently other dealers didn't like it and made a pact with Invicta that would have forced them to increase prices; instead they basically dropped the line. I should have bought the saw at the same time as the jointer.

How would you rate the RT-40 compared to the older Delta/Rockwell 14" saws that are on the market used?

Thanks...

Gary

I would say that thay are quite a bit better than the older 12-14 inch saws. They have a real dust shoot ( some call it a dust flask ) that sends the dust right out, as compared to the unisaw / older rockwell 12 inch saws that simply drop the dust to the bottom of the cabinet. they also have a riving knife setup that is really pretty nice. As far as power goes, they are a 7.5 hp weg motor that is really pretty beefy. I think you could really rip all day long. At some time I may sell mine and buy an oliver 88 or northfield #4 or a european slider. But for the time I like mine just fine.

lou