Stanley 46 questions

[Skip Helms]

Hi All,

I'm considering adding a#46 to the till for an old-school furniture project. I've been researching them as much as I can online but there were a couple questions that I couldn't resolve. Any help would be appreciated.

Question one is whether there are preferred types. Bench planes seem to have a long stretch of quality but the combination planes changed quite a bit. I'm particularly interested to know if the guard era (1-7) matters compared to the fence era (8-up) planes. The second question is if the arm spacing is the same so I can add a later fence to an older plane.

I'll be shopping on Ebay. Getting a set of cutters would be nice but I don't mind grinding some O1 steel to make ones I know I'll need. I'd probably only use two or three of a set anyway. If my studies are right, this never came with a 3/4" cutter and I could easily whip-out some undersized plywood sizes at the same time.

Thanks for looking, Skip

[lowell holmes]

Are collecting antique tools, if so go for it.
http://www.handplane.com/213/stanley-no-46-skew-cutter-combination-plane/

On the otherhand, if working wood, I favor :
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=74089&cat=1,230,41182

Look at the price difference.

[Jim Koepke]

The second question is if the arm spacing is the same so I can add a later fence to an older plane.

I'll be shopping on Ebay. Getting a set of cutters would be nice but I don't mind grinding some O1 steel to make ones I know I'll need.

Stanley made all the rod spacings on their combination planes different so people couldn't avoid buying new plane via the mix and match method.

You may want to get at least one blade. The #46 blades are skewed. The sides are ground different than on other combination planes.

I do not have an answer about the different types.

I do know the #46 is the 'odd duck' for the collectors and the prices are often high. Since there weren't a whole lot of them sold when they were available, they are a bit of a rarity today.

The only place where the #46 is different than other combination planes is the skewed blade improves performance for cross grain work.

jtk

[Allen Hunt]

Are collecting antique tools, if so go for it.
http://www.handplane.com/213/stanley-no-46-skew-cutter-combination-plane/

On the otherhand, if working wood, I favor :
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=74089&cat=1,230,41182

Look at the price difference.

Gotta dissagree here. If you want to plow with the grain, then any plow will work for you. If you want the ability to go cross-grain for dados then the Stanley 46 is a better option for you. The thing is, the 46 will cut with the grain very well, and is made for cross-grain work too, so the the 46 has its advantages. If you can grind your own blades, the 46 has few limits. As noted earlier, the sides of the blades on the 46 are relieved which adds to the task of grinding new blades. Be sure to look for the spurs on the 46 too. Mine came without spurs or nickers, but I bought their replacements on Ebay.

Allen

[lowell holmes]

You sure want to plow cross grain a lot to spend $400 for a plane. :)


Stanley No. 46 Skew Cutter Combination Plane (http://www.handplane.com/213/stanley-no-46-skew-cutter-combination-plane/)





Manufactured:
1873 to 1942


Length:
10-1/2 inches


Blade Width:
11 cutters provided: 1/4, 3/16, 5/16, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 13/16, 7/8. 1-1/2 inch, 1/4 inch tongue cutter and 1-1/2 inch filletster cutter


Construction:
Cast iron, rosewood handles & fence


Finish:
Nickel plated


Features:
Skewed cutter, adjustable fence and depth stop. Also 11 interchangeable cutters, spurs and slitter


Uses:
Plow, dado, filletster and rabbet plane


Average Dealer Price:
$150 to $450


Average eBay Price:
$600 to $1000


Type 1:
$400 to $1200


Type 2:
$225 to $450


Types 3 to 7:
$200 to $500




Actually, cross grain dado work is also accomplished with sawing the limits of the slot and removing the waste with a chisel.

[steven c newman]

Or a Stanley #45.....

[Jim Koepke]

The second question is if the arm spacing is the same so I can add a later fence to an older plane.

In my original answer this question may have been misunderstood. From all I know the arm spacing on the combination planes of a particular model number stayed the same over the years of changes.

My thought was you were wondering if a fence for a #45 would fit a #46. That answer is no.

jtk

[Skip Helms]

Thanks all, Yes Jim, I'm just wondering about 46's. I have a Sargent #37 dado plane (like the Stanley #39 with a 7/8" cutter) and like the way the skew cuts material. Alas, you need a different plane for each cutter width.

Lowell, I just lost a really nice example with a full set of cutters for $147 on the Bay. There are always guys trying to put a kid through college on the buy-it-now but actual sold units are generally under $200 unless they are collector quality. I like fixing beaters and figure I can get a serviceable unit for less than $80 with no cutters.

I'm a fair hand quickening and tempering tool steel and don't mind lopping off pieces of O1 as needed. It's the smaller sizes I'm interested in anyway -- don't need to make my own window sashes.

The Veritas unit looks very nice. If I ever start thinking about a true combination plane for beading and ogees, that will get a fair look.

Cheers, sh

[Allen Hunt]

I bought a 46 without cutters on ebay and the cutter set from St. James and the missing nickers/spurs on ebay all for quite a bit less than the numbers above. If you don't mind making your own cutters you could even do beading with a 46. I have both the 46 and the L-H Veritas small plow plane and like them both.

[Skip Helms]

Thanks Allen, Do you have an earlier or later model?

As far as hardening and tempering goes, there isn't anything easier to make than small chisels and plane blades. Usually they are small enough that just a MAPP torch will get them orange hot. If not, you can make a mini forge out of kiln bricks or a coffee can that will do the job cheap. I hadn't thought of concave cutters but if you can imagine the shape at the skewed angle, I don't see why you couldn't grind it out. sh

[Jim Koepke]

I hadn't thought of concave cutters but if you can imagine the shape at the skewed angle, I don't see why you couldn't grind it out.

The blade cutout for a flute or a bead is an ellipse. With a straight blade the ellipse angle is the bedding angle. With a skewed blade the section of the ellipse would be bisected in relation to the angle of the skew. It was possible for the craftsmen of a century or more in the past to do it, should be a piece of cake.

jtk

[Skip Helms]

Plus, you can only go so wrong. Leave the blank long, grind the profile perpendicular to the sides rather than the leading edge and plane a piece of wax. If you blow it, lop the end off and try again. If/when it's good, harden the blank and clean.

FWIW, I've been getting good steel from McMaster Carr for 25 years. I do recommend getting the precision ground blanks. They aren't much more (and sometimes cheaper) than the less accurate pieces. What matters more than the dimensions is that the high-tolerance blanks are a lot smoother so there is less lapping to get it slick. Back in the day I'd also use leaf springs. Great steel at scrap prices. Nice for Krenov or Japanese-style plane blades. sh

[lowell holmes]

Skip, don't misunderstand me. I'm not critical of your interest in the plane. Most of us woodworkers are into tool (toy) collecting as much as actual woodworking.
I have never realized there is a plow plane to cut cross grain dado's. The only time I ever needed to do that is in drawer building and I either used power tools, or the
techniques I learned from Paul Sellers. Actually, if working on a good piece, hand cut dove tails are used, primarily because I can. :) For the record, I have two wooden plow planes
and am resisting buying the Lee Valley plow.

The old saying from the recreational woodworker news group was "He who has the most tools at death, WINS!"
I don't think that has changed much. At least, I haven't.

[Allen Hunt]

Thanks Allen, Do you have an earlier or later model?


That's a good question Skip. I haven't ever tried to figure that out. Let me try to research it and I'll get back with you on that.

Okay. Looks like my 46 is a type 10-12, so one of the latter models. Glad to know!

Allen

[Allen Hunt]

Skip, Thanks for the information on your steel source!

Allen

[Skip Helms]

Hi Lowell, I only get tools I'll use -- typically I have a specific use in mind before I get it. In this case, I'm restoring a panel door on a late 19th century cabinet for a friend. I could use a router but somehow, the situation calls for the same care that went into the original. Plus; then I'll still have the plane.

Allen, the only new steel I've ever bought is O1 because it's so easy to quicken. But for all I know, any kind of tool or high speed steel will quench well enough to cut wood at low temperatures. Certainly no plane blade I make ever has to cut hickory at 25,000 RPM. I've usually tempered it low. If it chips, I'll throw it back in the oven another 25 degrees hotter and try again. You can't go the other way. sh

[Brent Aukes]

I found my 46 minus cutters at a garage sale for 15 bucks and the cutters on Epay for $85 more. Figure I got a bit lucky and I had some real cleaning to do, but they can be found.

[Rob Luter]

I got my #46 with one cutter for $18 at a flea market. I saw one yesterday at an antique mall for $150.

[Skip Helms]

Thanks guys. I don't visit a lot of flea-markets. I don't have the time and the only ones close by are mostly CD players and Chinese baby clothes. Considering this area used to be a nexus of handmade furniture, there isn't much residual tooling left. Same goes for stationary equipment.

I keep a few favorite searches on the Bay. That's a puzzlement too. One guy will put a buy-it-now price three times higher than eventual selling-price of the same unit in the auction below it. Another guy says he doesn't know much about his inventory. WYSIWYG. Pictures show rust, a busted mount and no cutters. $200 or best offer. Maybe somebody's got to have it but I don't even like to negotiate that far from actual value. Nice examples maybe but not a plane that was an outhouse doorstop for 50 years.

I'll keep looking and good luck with all your gear. sh

[Skip Helms]

I won a nice No. 46 on the Bay a couple days ago. The plane itself is complete with everything but the slitter. You can pay dear for the depth stops if those aren't included. The wraparound stop (which this doesn't have) goes for a couple hundred US -- fine for collectors but my planes sit on a shelf. There is a lonely #45 cutter in the slot but no #46 irons ... so ...

After I won the auction I ordered a piece of precision O1 steel from McMaster Carr measuring 3 1/2" x 18" x 1/8". I picked that width because that is about the length of the longest cutter in the set. My plan is to use an angle grinder to rough a 45 degree bevel almost to the edge of the steel on about a foot of one long edge. That's a lot faster than using a bench grinder on individual pieces. And getting it too hot isn't an issue -- yet. I toyed with the idea of rounding the edges on the other side but think I'll wait until I'm sure I haven't botched the cutting side first.

Then I'll lay it out something like the diagram below and use a 4" cutting wheel and a cheap (but very effective) Harbor Freight attachment so it cuts like a circular saw. I don't know who among you have ever used a cutoff wheel but they leave a really nice edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTlzcDJqcWU


I'll jig-up to cut these as exactly as I can because the edges will only need a little deburring.

When the parts arrive I'll add some posts on how I cut the steel, harden and temper it and add the obligatory fine shaving shot.

Thanks for reading and I'll be in touch, sh

[Jim Koepke]

Congrats on the win Skip.


You can pay dear for the depth stops if those aren't included.

I found a box/common nail with the proper diameter shank works fine for a depth stop. I ground down one side.

The sides of the blades are also beveled. It will likely be obvious how much to fit snugly in the slot in the body and the sliding skate/rail.

Hoping to see more when you get it working.

jtk

[Robin Frierson]

My 46 is a sweetheart, so not sure what type that makes it. I was lucky to find one with 10 cutters, fence, the knicker and depth stop, all nicely packaged in the fingerjointed box. I am a big fan of skewed planes, the 289, the 140. And you are right, there is no 3/4 in cutter in my set up. I dont use it much but its a thing of beauty.

[Skip Helms]

Thanks guys, I was thinking I would need to put a shim on the angle grinder base to replicate the side skew but want to actually have the plane in my hand before I get too creative. Maybe I should just buy a common size cutter from Eric for measurements. There is an older thread here about those angles that I'll research when the numbers have a visual reference.

I got the wider piece of steel so I could clamp it firmly with a fence and lop off the cutters like slicing bread. I do have a couple DIY jigs for my bench grinder to clean the sides of narrow plate stock but it would be much better to clip it clean the first time.

Cheers, sh

[Skip Helms]

The article wasn't at SMC. Here is the reference:

http://swingleydev.com/ot/get/25547/thread/

looks like a 20 degree parallelogram on the long edges and about 29 degrees across the short edges. The latter is a consensus measurement and not critical for rough work. I'll get that more precise when I grind it post-heat treating.

I pulled the Harbor Freight guide out of the box and it shouldn't be much trouble to retrofit it for a 20 degree slant cut. At $8, I'll probably just bend the supports and get another for 90 degree cuts.