Surpising unpleasant Sawstop buying experience - Jobsite saw.

[Keith Hankins]

Well first let me say I’ve had a 5hp ICS for several years now and the few experiences when I did call CS it was a top notch experience.

Now for this experience. My son is in the military. He is a bomb tech with the EOD group at Ft. Stewart GA. He is 26 and in the past year took an interest in woodworking. I decided for his birthday I would get him a TS.

He lives in base housing with his wife, and size/voltage would be key. I decided to buy him the jobsite sawstop for him. The safety and past experience drove that decision.

I ordered it online form acme tool and had it shipped to him. It tood 4 days to get to him and he was exstatic. I told him to carefully look at the box and if damaged do not accept.
it was not damaged, however when he removed it from the box a plastic tab fell out. He later deterined it was part of the built in tool box. He also noticed that the fence was a couple thou out and I told him he could adjust that. Now for some problems. The table is not flat, nor the blade square to the miter slots. While the square to miter slot can be fixed, the table flatness that in one area is low and another area high.

I thought no big deal, and told him to call sawstop and they will make it right. Well he got the run around. Was told that “its a job site diy saw” and 10 thou is tolerennce. My son said well he understands that but expects that when you cut from the right side of the blade you get a square cut and when you cut on the left side of the blade you get the same plumb cut. (perpendicular blade to table) it does not.

He called me and I said call back ask to speak to supervisor its over 30 thou out and they should fix it. He called back did as i said and spoke to a lady and she would follow up.
He gets a call back from the same dude and basically starts the call with just send it back.

I’m ticked because Its going to cost me a lot to ship it back, and I’m probable going to get hit with a restock fee on top of it.

My son was apologizing, I’m pissed because its ruined a great birthday and I’m surprised at the response. He’s a Soldier serving his country and this is the last thing he needs. So its going back next week and I’ll have to come up with a diff present. Probably will end up being a couple hundred $$ learning experience.

Anyway, I’m going to deal with it on Monday, but what a cluster.

[Nick Stokes]

I'm not invested in this, so it's not personal to me. But from the sound of it, the first phone call didn't go well, maybe he wasn't explaining the situation well enough? Or maybe it wasn't a good service rep that he got ahold of. The second phone call, he had more info, and they offered to take it back; what else should they do?

[Frederick Skelly]

Sorry Keith, Im not following you. Why doesnt the saw cut square on either side of the blade? Was he unable to adjust the blade to make it parallel to the miter slot, after all? (Can you adjust that on Sawstop? I can, on my Delta CS., though it isn't fun.)

[Keith Hankins]

I'm not invested in this, so it's not personal to me. But from the sound of it, the first phone call didn't go well, maybe he wasn't explaining the situation well enough? Or maybe it wasn't a good service rep that he got ahold of. The second phone call, he had more info, and they offered to take it back; what else should they do?

The point is they started the call with "its a jobsite saw". Sorry I expect a 1300$ saw to cut strait on both sides of the blade, but thats just me. Key Learning danger of big tool purchase online not local mistake.

Second, I'm more surprised from response from sawstop. I still love my ICS.

[Martin Wasner]

It's not a $1300 saw though. It's a $600 jobsite saw with a $700 widget bolted to it.

I'm not saying you're wrong about what to expect, but it is a jobsite saw. They aren't awesome. They're cheap, light and light duty.

[Keith Hankins]

Sorry Keith, Im not following you. Why doesnt the saw cut square on either side of the blade? Was he unable to adjust the blade to make it parallel to the miter slot, after all? (Can you adjust that on Sawstop? I can, on my Delta CS., though it isn't fun.)

I found another issue is they were sending communications via email to me instead of him. I've fwd on and they are talking about shimming the table top. So I'm thinking just return it. I should have had him go to a local vendor thats my bad. I wanted to surprise him. It will be Monday before I can reach out to the online vendor. They may be really good. If so, I'll update here as well.

Main point of the post was surprise and disapointment in the CS response, and they are just known for (and personal) over the top cs. Starting the conversation with "it's a diy say" like acceptance of it being out and the impression was "what do you expect" This one fell short. I still love my ICS. May be the answer is that level saw it's just expected.

[john lawson]

Have him go to a Woodcraft store and buy it onsite. He can try it out and if it needs adjusting they can do it there.

[glenn bradley]

Was told that “its a job site diy saw” and 10 thou is tolerennce.

I appreciate that this has been disappointing and frustrating but, I have to admit that "its a job-site saw" was my initial reaction as well. It is for lopping off 2x4's and even though it is a Saw Stop, it will not be anything like your ICS. I think this is a case of incorrect product selection and I'm glad they took it back. I am not glad to hear that your son got an unhelpful person with a "whadda ya expect?" type of response. Certainly not what I would have expected from Saw Stop. They could have politely explained that their job site saw competes with the other job site saws but, with the added Saw Stop technology, nothing more. JMHO.

[Carroll Courtney]

I'm with you Keith,did it say in the information page of the saw that top will not be flat or adjustments will be needed?The price of the saw varies with all the mistakes???Oh its only a jobsite saw,there's another price deduction,well heck who knows what went on at the factory.But the box was not damage so it was package with those issues.Myself if I buy something new I expect to be adjusted and tested,now if its one of those scratch/dent sales that would be different.You know like what Griz does sometimes,then you kinda expect those issues,but shipping it back there is still no guarantee your going to get one better.Its a roll of the dice over the internet.Good luck sir,thank your son for his services from SMC----Carroll
PS: Yrs ago I purchase a Delta Contractors saw,not their Unisaw and it was fantastic

[Sean Tracey]

There's no way I would send the saw back at my expense if the blade to miter slot is adjustable and then the fence is adjustable. I would align the saw to my own precision because that's what you do with a table saw. Especially after it's been shipped to you. In fact, precision alignment of all my tools is the first thing that's done. 90 and 45 degree stops for miter saws, circular saws and other items are all checked and finely adjusted. Test cuts are made. After all that is done, the tool is ready for use. Quality hand tools such as planes and chisels are purchased from Lie-Nielsen. But the blades still get honed before use.

I wouldn't even waste my time dealing with support and returning it because by the time I did that, the saw would be tuned to perfection instead of me waiting for another saw that I would end up aligning to perfection anyway.

[David Kumm]

I've lost track. Can the non flat table be shimmed and adjusted back to flat? A table that just needs some shims is different from one either manufactured with a flaw, or a table out of flat due to the weight of the internals bolted and hanging from it. The latter are design flaws and should be handled accordingly. The first should just be fixed by the buyer. I've never had a machine that didn't need some adjustment, including the high end stuff. Dave

[mreza Salav]

It's very likely that even if saw was adjusted at the factory it has lost some of it during shipping/handling. I've heard that Sawstops (the cabinet saws) arrive with very little to no adjustment needed. Also, that 0.010" top flatness is indeed within their tolerances even for the bigger cabinet saws I think. If you think adjustments by yourself would fix the alignment issues that's not extra ordinary to be done by the end user (in fact the manual does say how to do those step by step). I think you have to let the weekend go by to let your frustration ware a bit and come back to it.

[Carpenter Mark]

It's not a $1300 saw though. It's a $600 jobsite saw with a $700 widget bolted to it

Exactly.

Despite who's name is on it and their claims to exceptional quality, it is a Chinese machine, made with common parts used in other brands. And ,unfortunately, their claims to allowable tolerances (for the point of manufacture) are correct. Caveat emptor.

[Ken Combs]

I appreciate that this has been disappointing and frustrating but, I have to admit that "its a job-site saw" was my initial reaction as well. It is for lopping off 2x4's and even though it is a Saw Stop, it will not be anything like your ICS. I think this is a case of incorrect product selection and I'm glad they took it back. I am not glad to hear that your son got an unhelpful person with a "whadda ya expect?" type of response. Certainly not what I would have expected from Saw Stop. They could have politely explained that their job site saw competes with the other job site saws but, with the added Saw Stop technology, nothing more. JMHO.

Just so you know: A lot of onsite trim work is done with a job site saw. Built-ins, closet shelves, wainscot etc. And it is expected to look as good as stuff built in the shop!

I've seen some confusion in the thread though. There has been mention of a .010 tolerance, but the OP said the table was out of flat by .030. Big difference!

I don't think he was really concerned with the adjustable things, just the apparent manufacturing flaws, not assembly issues.

And, If agree that the rep should not have dismissed a customer as curtly as it seems from this telling. Quality is one issue, attitude is another!

edit: I meant to add, the difference, at least IMHO in saws is not the ability to make accurate cuts, it is in the ease of them. Like ripping sheet goods to size. It can be done in a lot of ways, but the right tool for the job just makes it easier, and requires less skill of the user.

All saws should be expected to cut straight in all planes, and all the job site saws I've tried can do that, Bosch, Ridgid etc.

[larry senen]

I have to tell you a fence that is parallel will hàve the back of the blade tearing up the wood. Though 30 thou is a little much.

Wait till the motor on your bosch job site saw burns out. You'll get a real lesson in engineering.

[John TenEyck]

Is the table really not flat or just not perpendicular to the blade at 90°? Big difference. If it's not flat by 0.030" you have a legitimate beef, whether it's a stationary or jobsite saw. If it's just not perpendicular to the blade at 90°, well, that's something you adjust yourself. I've never received a machine yet that was set up perfectly. I even bought a CMS once that many reviewers said was "perfect out of the box" only to find that nothing was perfect. But the saw does cut as perfect now as can be expected, after I went through the owner's manual to adjust everything.

And I agree with Ken, jobsite saws need to be able to cut just about as well as a cabinet saw. Mine does.

Other than the poor initial response of SawStop's CS, I don't think you could ask for more than they offered - to take it back if you are unhappy, except to offer to pay the return shipping charge.

John

[Matt Day]

+1 John T

There is a lot of confusion in this thread. I believe all measurements the OP is talking about are for the table flatness.

You should not have to pay return freight for a defect. Acme tool should take care of that and likely have a return policy you should look into. Then I'd have him buy a saw at Woodcraft and inspect it before taking it home as suggested.

[Jim Dwight]

I agree 30 thousands is too much. I disagree with the comments about it being "only" a jobsite saw and suggesting the safety features were $700 of the price. The inventor of the technology claimed it would add much less than that to the price of the saw. I think he said $100. But regardless of the price, a table saw table should be flat. 10 thousandths is probably fine but 30 isn't. A manufacturer who wants to claim 30 thousandths is good enough for a $1300 saw doesn't deserve your business.

There is a Bosch...

[Keith Hankins]

OK folks I'm going to put this to bed. Vendor not called because it arrived not in a damaged box, so figured Sawstop would deal with things under warantee. Which in most cases are good enough.


Disapointed in response on the call with Sawstop. I reitterated that I will reach out to the vendor to return it but that would have been the least desiired options and the seller would not have parts to fix it. Hence the call to sawstop


Some times just fix it is worth it.


However based on the response and number of issues, its just going back. I do not want to shim it to make it work.


I'm hoping that it will be an easy task. At this point can't say. Even if I foot the bill to ship it i will chalk it up to a learning experience.


Key learning "BUY LOCAl" that was the point. I'm over it no matter what. I felt back my son who kept apologizing and I said its not his fault.


Yes I did post on another forum just as an Information sharring as I will post this update as well.


So long story short, I'm thinking that a job site saw is good for a carpenter. It in no way changes my opinion of my ICS. I love it and its my forever saw. As I also said previously, I hope no issues sending it back but I'll update on what happens. The vendor is in the dakota's and I will call on Monday.


You want to throw daggers go ahead don't matter to me.

[Buck Williams]

The all around quality / fit and finish of the saw is suspect, if you paid with a credit card, notify the credit card company that you would like to have them rescind their payment until the dispute is resolved. That should get Sawstop's attention, if they can't resolve things, have them come and get THEIR saw. Do they publish tolerances and specs for the product, are there any agreed upon standards of accuracy that a contractor's job-site saw must meet?

[Jim Becker]

Sad to hear about how this went down, Keith. While I also feel that we cannot expect the same level of precision on a light-weight tool like this as compared to a multi-thousand dollar cast iron tool, we can and should expect the same level of courtesy from customer support. "How" things get said matters.

I'm wondering if your son might be better served by a track saw system that includes a table? I'll use Festool as an example because that's what I'm familiar with, but a track saw combined with a Multifunction table setup is pretty darn capable and you can add a router to the mix, too. 'Just a thought...

[john lawson]

I don't agree that this saw should be allowed any extra room for tolerances including out of flat condition because it is a "construction site saw". Sawstop has built their business selling safety and quality. To expect anything less from them is unacceptable.

Send it back and buy something you are happy with. It really is that simple. Maybe that is a Bosch, maybe it's a Festool, but no compromise on Sawstop and their foolish notions on quality.

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

So, Sawstop should provide a lightweight, mobile saw...with the same accuracy and overall quality of their cabinet saws? Then top that off by making it considerably cheaper. Ok. Sounds perfectly reasonable.

[john lawson]

So, Sawstop should provide a lightweight, mobile saw...with the same accuracy and overall quality of their cabinet saws? Then top that off by making it considerably cheaper. Ok. Sounds perfectly reasonable.

Not sure I saw anyone say this other than you - kind of a poor "straw man" you trotted out.

But if Sawstop wants to sell a portable saw for $1300 (approx) then it had better be light weight, accurate and very high overall quality. You can buy a jobsite saw with a riving knife and a good mobile base for a few hundred bucks at the BORG now, so who are they competing with?

What we are talking about is not rocket science, it's not even difficult to do. With manufacturing processes that are available today precise machining of surfaces is fairly easy to do. It just takes some planning and execution. They have been able to do it with their other products.

Sawstop has entered the market at the premium level, where high quality is expected and assumed. If they are not prepared to deliver that level of quality they won't be in that market very long. It only takes a few machines of questionable quality and poor customer service for people to realize they are not getting what they thought they were buying, and the word will spread quickly.

[Prashun Patel]

Something doesn't feel right about this. I am not negating your experience, but I will say that I have found Sawstop's service and customer care to be second to none. I always get a quick and thorough response. Even if that saw is not to be expected to have a tight tolerance (which I doubt), I believe Sawstop would have explained it in a way that didn't make you feel marginalized and helpless.

I would call them back and complain about the way you were handled.

The PCS I own is a wonderful saw in every way, and I highly suspect the jobsite saw is of similar quality. The Sawstop philosophy is that if you're going to pay double for a saw, you better get superior fit and finish and performance as well as safety.

It would be a shame if you threw the baby out with the bath water because of a bad customer service interaction.

I wouldn't give up on having them make this right.

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

Not sure I saw anyone say this other than you - kind of a poor "straw man" you trotted out.

But if Sawstop wants to sell a portable saw for $1300 (approx) then it had better be light weight, accurate and very high overall quality. You can buy a jobsite saw with a riving knife and a good mobile base for a few hundred bucks at the BORG now, so who are they competing with?

What we are talking about is not rocket science, it's not even difficult to do. With manufacturing processes that are available today precise machining of surfaces is fairly easy to do. It just takes some planning and execution. They have been able to do it with their other products.

Sawstop has entered the market at the premium level, where high quality is expected and assumed. If they are not prepared to deliver that level of quality they won't be in that market very long. It only takes a few machines of questionable quality and poor customer service for people to realize they are not getting what they thought they were buying, and the word will spread quickly.

I don't think I am the only one that stated job site saws don't have the same tolerances, but kudos on the straw man reference. Maybe the quality of the saw isn't at acceptable standards, but all I've been able to decipher is that Sawstop has terrible customer service, and that we should all by locally. I don't know what Acme tools has done wrong to this point, other than sell a saw and ship it.

[Martin Wasner]

Comparing 100# jobsite saw to a cabinet saw isn't a fair comparison in my book. Most of them are a cast aluminum deck bolted to a Rubbermaid tub with a skil saw bolted to the underside.

It's along the lines of expecting a Powermatic tablesaw to be as good as an Oliver, Northfield, or Tannewitz. Sure, they're all tablesaws, but of wildly different levels of quality.

I do think it sucks you weren't happy with the customer service though. It does sound to be abnormal I that respect.

[Keith Hankins]

Well first let me say I’ve had a 5hp ICS for several years now and the few experiences when I did call CS it was a top notch experience.

Now for this experience. My son is in the military. He is a bomb tech with the EOD group at Ft. Stewart GA. He is 26 and in the past year took an interest in woodworking. I decided for his birthday I would get him a TS.

He lives in base housing with his wife, and size/voltage would be key. I decided to buy him the jobsite sawstop for him. The safety and past experience drove that decision.

I ordered it online form acme tool and had it shipped to him. It tood 4 days to get to him and he was exstatic. I told him to carefully look at the box and if damaged do not accept.
it was not damaged, however when he removed it from the box a plastic tab fell out. He later deterined it was part of the built in tool box. He also noticed that the fence was a couple thou out and I told him he could adjust that. Now for some problems. The table is not flat, nor the blade square to the miter slots. While the square to miter slot can be fixed, the table flatness that in one area is low and another area high.

I thought no big deal, and told him to call sawstop and they will make it right. Well he got the run around. Was told that “its a job site diy saw” and 10 thou is tolerennce. My son said well he understands that but expects that when you cut from the right side of the blade you get a square cut and when you cut on the left side of the blade you get the same plumb cut. (perpendicular blade to table) it does not.

He called me and I said call back ask to speak to supervisor its over 30 thou out and they should fix it. He called back did as i said and spoke to a lady and she would follow up.
He gets a call back from the same dude and basically starts the call with just send it back.

I’m ticked because Its going to cost me a lot to ship it back, and I’m probable going to get hit with a restock fee on top of it.

My son was apologizing, I’m pissed because its ruined a great birthday and I’m surprised at the response. He’s a Soldier serving his country and this is the last thing he needs. So its going back next week and I’ll have to come up with a diff present. Probably will end up being a couple hundred $$ learning experience.

Anyway, I’m going to deal with it on Monday, but what a cluster.

Well alls well. Acmetool was stellar said i could return no issue. They are sending him a shipping label so no restock and no shipping on my part. Great company and they have got my business for future tools.

Sawstop provided procedures for adjusting and suggested potentially shimming for high/low spots. I decided that thats not what I want to do so returning is the best option. So its going back no cost to me. I told him if he wanted he could go to his local wood dealer and if he finds one there with no issues, call me and I'll give the guy my card number and he can just buy it there. He's not to keen at that at the moment, so I said think about it and let me know.

He's working on his project with just hand tools even the sawing . He's got moxy! (more than me)

Again I'll buy from acme tool again top notch.

I still love my ICS though.

[Ellery Becnel]

I am glad to hear that this has worked out for you and your son. Tell your son, Very much appreciation for his service for our country! I would not have accepted that saw. Shimming is asking for trouble, in the future.
Regardless of how much you paid, or what level of precision the saw is in regards to others. You paid YOUR money for something to work properly. It is expected to do that. If it was not a problem, they would have not
taken it back. I have had similar situations with products that were out of compliance. You have to decide what you will accept. It certainly did not help to hear that initial comment. One comment from an employee can
destroy someone loyalty to purchase from them, in the future. Thanks for sharing with us.

Ellery Becnel

[Martin Wasner]

Again I'll buy from acme tool again top notch.

I have nothing but good things to say about Acme Tools. They are semi local to me, and a few years ago they bought out one of the industrial suppliers for equipment. One of the salesman that was with GC Peterson is the guy I deal with at Acme. I've bought a lot of things through there that isn't in any catalog of theirs. In fact, I just dropped $10k with them an hour ago on a new toy.

I was debating about sending you my salesman's phone number if it wasn't resolved. Glad it went the way you wanted to.

[Jim Dwight]

Glad to hear it worked out OK. I use a Ryobi 3100 which I paid about $300 for. It has a 15A universal motor and is belt driven so it will cut 3.5 inches deep in hardwood. I have done it. With a clean Freud ripping blade the feed rate can be respectable. I've built at least 6 bedroom sets and a lot of other furniture using that saw. I've looked at the specs on the Bosch jobsite saw and it looks to be similar in capability. They now have a version of that saw with their blade stopping device. But I don't think it's cheaper than a Sawstop.

I used to use my Ryobi with extension rails for 60 inch rip capacity. But I added a track saw a few years ago and I like the combination of my little table saw and the tracksaw a lot better than my saw with the extension rails. Track saws are also inherently safer than table saws IMHO.

I now have two Ron Paulk inspired work surfaces in my shop. I have a crosscut jig for the main one, my 3 foot by 7 foot workbench. He sells plans for a total solution that incorporates a CMS (his is a Kapex) and a portable table saw and a router table. It would be a pretty solid setup for somebody without a lot of space. Ron is a professional builder/carpenter who uses these work surfaces. They are different but give you the capability of a MFT, roughly, with plusses and some minuses. Worth looking at if your son doesn't have the space or need for a full sized table saw.