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Ross Moshinsky
06-24-2016, 1:13 PM
Rowmark Terminates Distribution Arrangement with JDS Industries

JDS was informed this week by Rowmark via E-mail that they are terminating our distribution arrangement that goes back over 25 years. JDS will no longer be able to purchase any of the Rowmark products that we currently distribute. We have been one of the largest Rowmark distributors for many years, and have been proud to be able to offer those products to you. I am saddened that we will no longer be able to offer this line to you. The product lines effected include: All Rowmark and IPI plastic sheet stock, Rowmark Aluminum sign frames, Rowmark Stand-off’s and mounting fixtures, Lasermags, Mates, Spectrum Lights, and the Rowmark Hardwood Collection. JDS does have a large current inventory that will be available for sale while supplies last.

Rowmark was acquired by a Venture Capital company a few years ago, and since then has been buying other companies to consolidate their position in the plastic sheet stock market. At this time, the group also owns IPI Plastics, Johnson’s Plastics, Burlane Plastics and Laserbits. I strongly feel that consolidating too much of any market into one controlling company does not promote a healthy market and choice of supply to the industry. This is why JDS Industries chose to add the Gemini line of plastics to our offerings for you about 6 months ago.

Gemini is a high quality, family owned company that previously focused primarily on the signage industry. A couple of years ago, they added the state of the art equipment that they needed to begin manufacturing their own line of engravable plastic. They use the newest and best equipment in a clean room environment to ensure the highest quality in their products. When we started testing their products, we were very impressed with the consistent quality and also the value of what they were offering. I felt that this would be a line that our customers would have a strong interest in, benefiting from both the high quality, and the lower prices. The Gemini DUETS products that we offer have an average savings of 20% to 30% over similar Rowmark items. We have had a strong response to this new line in the last 6 months with many customers telling us how much cleaner it lasers which means less clean-up for them.

We also added a product line of thin flexible plastic engraving material we call JDSFLEX. This line is similar to Rowmark Flexibrass, but at a savings of 40% or more on the most popular colors. This line has taken off very fast as so many customers are using this material to laser trophy plates as well as other uses. We also have a new line coming soon to be called JDS Ultra Thins which will be an even thinner alternative at even lower price points. We hope to have this new line available to sell by the end of July. We have several other plastic engraving products we are working on that you will see in the next few months as well. Our goal is to give our customers great quality products at the best price points possible.

Although we are unhappy that Rowmark has taken away our ability to offer their products once our inventories are depleted, we are very excited by the new offerings we will be bringing to the market. I feel that it is very important for our customers to have options to choose from in any market, and plastic engraving material is no exception.

JDS Industries started as a retail trophy store in Sioux Falls, SD. In the last 30 years we have grown to become the largest wholesaler of Awards and Personalization products in the world. We remain committed to the principles that allowed us to grow such as offering the best customer service, availability of inventory, and a wide variety of products to our customers. We will continue to bring you the best, most innovative products from around the world that we feel will benefit your company.

Thank you for your business.

Well, looks like I have to start using more Duets, which I've had mixed results with....

Keith Winter
06-24-2016, 2:00 PM
Unfortunate and strange, I just got samples of both last month for a project and they said nothing, must have come out of the blue for JDS. JDS was also pushing the row mark product instead of the Duets at the NBM show a couple months ago.

Can you share the issues you've had with Duets?

Gary Hair
06-24-2016, 2:32 PM
As I posted on the Engraving Etc. forum:
Fortunately, this doesn't directly impact me as I buy all of my Rowmark from the local MultiCraft Plastics. Hopefully that won't change... If it does, it's unlikely that I'll continue with Rowmark as JDS has a warehouse that gets to me next day by UPS ground, and Johnson is nowhere near that close. Not that I'm a big player, but Rowmark/Johnson would lose me completely at that point.

Keith Outten
06-24-2016, 7:28 PM
I will continue to support Johnson's Plastics, they have been my engraving plastics supplier for many years and they are a major advertiser here.
.

john passek
06-25-2016, 1:34 AM
I would like to start purchasing from JDS again but their shipping was at times more than the product I ordered ..

Mike Null
06-25-2016, 7:35 AM
I have the same shipping issue with JDS but fortunately, they are just a short drive for me. They are my major supplier but like Keith, I buy plastic from Johnson. I use IPI almost exclusively and they have a large selection and in the thicknesses I need.

Kev Williams
06-25-2016, 12:56 PM
Thankfully Delvies is like 6 miles from me. Their prices compared to ANY online is less than anyone to start with, and no shipping costs. Probably saves me $2000 - $3000 a year. I hope Rowmark doesn't cut THEM off...

I remember when I used to order directly FROM Rowmark. Those days are gone...

Ross Moshinsky
06-25-2016, 2:17 PM
Everyone does what's best for them. I happen to be local to JDS and go to the warehouse ~3 times a week. If they don't have it in stock, it's shipped to me at a drastically reduced cost because I'm a will call customer. When it's shipped, it's rare that it takes more than 2 days. It's close to an ideal situation.

I think this is going to hurt Rowmark overall. This thread clearly shows that distribution ranks very high on most people's list and considering this move cuts their distributions way down, I can't see how this move helps their company. Then again, I don't know what future moves they have in mind so maybe they're going to expand and find new partnerships.

Tony Lenkic
06-25-2016, 2:19 PM
Kev,

Unless Delvies drops Gemini line they will be excluded by Rowmark just like all others have been already. Stay tuned for notice.

Liesl Dexheimer
06-27-2016, 9:26 AM
Wow, you guys are lucky to live close to warehouse/distribution centers. The closest for me was Zak Plastics but that was sold to Johnson Plastics which Rowmark now owns. I pay a lot in s/h not just from JDS but also Tropar and even JP and Marco. It used to be that a 12x24 box would cost around $15 last year and now it's about $20. Anyway, I am totally against Rowmark's plan to dominate the market. It angers me because the more competition they cut out of the picture then they can charge whatever they feel like. Their products aren't that great, I will be ordering Duets from now on.

Matt McCoy
06-27-2016, 10:32 AM
Johnson/Rowmark/Laserbits probably owed JDS the courtesy of a phone call instead of an email after 25 years.

Brian Leavitt
06-27-2016, 11:04 AM
Fortunately, I stopped buying Rowmark and IPI products a while back. I buy all of my plastics from a company in South(I think) Carolina which manufactures its own line of laserables.

Kev Williams
06-27-2016, 12:02 PM
Trying to be the biggest...

Up until 2 or 3 years ago, I used to get all our trophy metal and parts at Rocky Mountain Awards. Just drive there, tell them what you need, go back to work. Or we could go in back and see all the treasures. Then Marco bought the place. And now there's no 'walking in', I have to make an 800-phone call and order what I want. And who knows what's stored in back now, could be a casino for all anyone knows...

Jay Selway
06-29-2016, 12:34 PM
The fact that JDS can't calculate shipping at checkout is a big negative for me. I'd rather pay a little bit more, and have a better understanding of the impact on cash flow than get a random charge for shipping at a later date.

I spent most of my career building websites, and calculated shipping on check out incredibly easy to implement. No idea why JDS doesn't do this.

Kev Williams
06-29-2016, 2:13 PM
Kev,

Unless Delvies drops Gemini line they will be excluded by Rowmark just like all others have been already. Stay tuned for notice.

Delvies doesn't even sell enough IPI to keep IT in stock, let alone Gemini, they're 'middleman' sales, so I doubt they'll have any issues with dropping Gemini if it comes to that.

But why should it?

United States antitrust law is a collection of federal and state government laws
that regulates the conduct and organization of business corporations, generally to
promote fair competition for the benefit of consumers.

Fair competition? This reminds me of a friend of mine who opened a SCUBA dive shop. He was put out of business by a couple of shops down the street who'd been in business a few years; they told their 2 major suppliers that if they sold anything to my friend, THEY would stop buying from them. So these suppliers refused to sell my friend anything. Straight out blackmail since (as I understand it) the 2 major suppliers are about all there is unless you're willing to buy and resell cheap crap. Since they (and my friend) wouldn't buy cheap stuff, it was a total bluff...

for Rowmark to refuse to sells supplies to JDS simply because they also buy and sell another company's products is NOT indicative of 'fair competition'...

Ross Moshinsky
06-29-2016, 2:51 PM
The fact that JDS can't calculate shipping at checkout is a big negative for me. I'd rather pay a little bit more, and have a better understanding of the impact on cash flow than get a random charge for shipping at a later date.

I spent most of my career building websites, and calculated shipping on check out incredibly easy to implement. No idea why JDS doesn't do this.

JDS sells something in the neighborhood of 25k different items. It would not be easy at all to figure out shipping before hand. Through JDS, you pay what the shipping costs. I consider that a hell of a lot better than the "Well, we don't actually know how much it will cost to ship so it's $22.50" when in reality it only cost $17.75.

Mike Chance in Iowa
06-29-2016, 7:26 PM
JDS sells something in the neighborhood of 25k different items. It would not be easy at all to figure out shipping before hand. Through JDS, you pay what the shipping costs. I consider that a hell of a lot better than the "Well, we don't actually know how much it will cost to ship so it's $22.50" when in reality it only cost $17.75.

I agree with Ross. If I know a supplier is going to wait to charge me once they pack the order and calculate true shipping fees, I'm all for it! I typically have a good idea what the shipping fee will be already, so I base my calculations on that.

While I haven't spent most of my career building web sites and calculating shipping, I have done a fair share of it and I have yet to find a way to accurately charge the right shipping fee for all items on the web site. Ultimately, someone is going to be overcharged for shipping because the site cannot factor all product combinations and how they can be shipped together efficiently.

Keith Winter
07-01-2016, 7:50 AM
Calculating shipping on checkout is not easy unless you use an off the shelf e-commerce system. Even then you have to calculate dimensional weight for every single item, true weight, factor in dunnage, and box size, which may differ from the item size, throwing off shipping as well. It's gotten increase complex to do, over the years ups and FedEx have added in tons of extra charges and started charging dimensional on nearly everything.

So what B to B retailers tend to do is overcharge on shipping to account for these shortfalls on even the most automated systems vs B to C which typically undercharge or give free shipping to entice the customer to complete the sale. JDS has a ton of items and appears to have gone with a homemade e-commerce system so that makes the task even harder.

Mike Null
07-01-2016, 9:40 AM
It is my opinion that JDS marks up shipping. Uline marks it up so much that I've stopped using them.

I have the UPS World Ship program on one of my computers and it is possible to determine costs from that.

Keith Winter
07-01-2016, 10:18 AM
It is my opinion that JDS marks up shipping. Uline marks it up so much that I've stopped using them.

I have the UPS World Ship program on one of my computers and it is possible to determine costs from that.

I think they all mark it up. Rest assured JDS and uline are getting much better rates from ups or Fedex than all of us with their volume.

Gary Hair
07-01-2016, 10:45 AM
I think they all mark it up.

They need to pay for the boxes and packaging materials somehow.

Chris DeGerolamo
07-01-2016, 12:05 PM
Getting back on task here, I was curious as to why Burr-Lane cold called me 2 weeks or so before JDS was notified. Looks like everyone knew but them. I will be happy to continue giving my business to JDS, they have been good to me over the years.

Keith Winter
07-01-2016, 12:14 PM
They need to pay for the boxes and packaging materials somehow.

Mike was talking about JDS and mostly uline... uline is all boxes and packaging ;)

Keith Winter
07-01-2016, 12:16 PM
Getting back on task here, I was curious as to why Burr-Lane cold called me 2 weeks or so before JDS was notified. Looks like everyone knew but them. I will be happy to continue giving my business to JDS, they have been good to me over the years.

This makes me feel bad for JDS, pretty crappy if they were trying to poach JDS's customer base in advance.

Ross Moshinsky
10-05-2016, 2:06 PM
Just to report back, I've slowly integrated Gemini's plastic into our work flow. We don't do tons of plastic but I've done maybe 20 sheets of Gemini over the last month.

So far, I've been satisfied with the product. It comes in relatively flat, engraves and cuts as I'd expect. I use settings very similar to Rowmark. It does seem to cut with a little less power and also the edge seems a little less sticky than Rowmark. I have found Gemini's plastic seems to produce a lot more smoke which can be an issue at times. The biggest difference I've noticed is the smell. Gemini's plastic is a more stinky. The other thing I've noticed is the inconsistency of the size of the material. I'm pretty sure they're shipping JDS full sheets and JDS is chopping them down. This means one time I get a 12.125x24.125 sheet and the next I get barely 12x24. It's not a huge issue but it's kind of a pain in the butt when I need to do jobs where I need to be very careful in order to get proper yield.

If you were buying your plastic from JDS, I'd say give Gemini a shot and see what you think. It's significantly cheaper and seems a comparable product. I can't say I'll buy Gemini from now on, but as of right now, if I'm buying plastic and it doesn't need to match up to a previous job, I'm likely buying Gemini.

Kev Williams
10-05-2016, 3:47 PM
Well, just checked the JDS website. No prices.

No sale.

Keith Outten
10-05-2016, 4:20 PM
You can still buy Rowmark from Johnson's Plastics, they have been my plastics provider for over ten years and they are a Sponsor here.
.

Gary Hair
10-05-2016, 5:46 PM
Just to report back, I've slowly integrated Gemini's plastic into our work flow. We don't do tons of plastic but I've done maybe 20 sheets of Gemini over the last month.

So far, I've been satisfied with the product. It comes in relatively flat, engraves and cuts as I'd expect. I use settings very similar to Rowmark. It does seem to cut with a little less power and also the edge seems a little less sticky than Rowmark. I have found Gemini's plastic seems to produce a lot more smoke which can be an issue at times. The biggest difference I've noticed is the smell. Gemini's plastic is a more stinky. The other thing I've noticed is the inconsistency of the size of the material. I'm pretty sure they're shipping JDS full sheets and JDS is chopping them down. This means one time I get a 12.125x24.125 sheet and the next I get barely 12x24. It's not a huge issue but it's kind of a pain in the butt when I need to do jobs where I need to be very careful in order to get proper yield.

If you were buying your plastic from JDS, I'd say give Gemini a shot and see what you think. It's significantly cheaper and seems a comparable product. I can't say I'll buy Gemini from now on, but as of right now, if I'm buying plastic and it doesn't need to match up to a previous job, I'm likely buying Gemini.

I've got a huge job I'm running that should total about 4,800 1x3 plates. I originally planned on using Rowmark but the local reseller didn't have anywhere near enough in stock and couldn't get more in time. I would have bought from Johnson but the shipping would have killed me, I would lose the next day shipping, and at 3:00 my time they are long gone. So I bought Gemini from JDS. They are close enough to me that anything I order before about 3:00pm gets shipped that day and I get it the next day. I really didn't care about the price per sheet, at 192 parts per sheet the cost of the sheet could be 3 or 4 times as much and the net effect per part would still be negligible, but I did care about it being here when I need it. If JDS had Rowmark I likely would have bought it, too bad that's not possible!

Tim Bateson
10-06-2016, 8:25 AM
You can still buy Rowmark from Johnson's Plastics, they have been my plastics provider for over ten years and they are a Sponsor here.
.

True... BUT It's more expensive, you don't get the 10 sheet discount, and slower shipping. There is a discount, but it's like a zillion sheets. I did recently try Gemini - OK, I was desperate. It cut like butter. Engraved like crap. Took multiple passes for a decent engraving. Yes it was the laser engravable plastic. I had thought it was my system & tried a piece of standard RowMark. It engraved normally. I guess after I run out of this crappy Gemini, I'll be paying the higher price and waiting longer for shipments. Sad.

Rowmark still has the best product, but lousy business sense.

Chris DeGerolamo
10-06-2016, 9:09 AM
My experience with Gemini has been good so far, though I do see more residue from vectoring when cutting all the way through. It's off little consequence though as that I merely cut a score line and snap them to separate after lasering. I suppose if the materials were adhesive backed and I had to cut [through] all the way, I'd just run two passes to get the best result.

Tony Lenkic
10-06-2016, 9:36 AM
True... BUT It's more expensive, you don't get the 10 sheet discount, and slower shipping. There is a discount, but it's like a zillion sheets. I did recently try Gemini - OK, I was desperate. It cut like butter. Engraved like crap. Took multiple passes for a decent engraving. Yes it was the laser engravable plastic. I had thought it was my system & tried a piece of standard RowMark. It engraved normally. I guess after I run out of this crappy Gemini, I'll be paying the higher price and waiting longer for shipments. Sad.

Rowmark still has the best product, but lousy business sense.


Wow Tim,

I was at trade show couple weeks ago where Gemini was running Helix engraving red/white and blue white laser sheets and it engraved with excellent results.
Picked up some sample pieces and tried them my self with Speedy 300 and results are perfect.

As for Rowmark having best product............Have you tried IPI? I think IPI may be at the top of them all.

BTW, I buy only Trotec sheets stock for last 3-4 years unless they don't have a specific color. Price in line with Gemini, delivered next day free of charge to my location.

Brian Leavitt
10-06-2016, 9:53 AM
As for Rowmark having best product............Have you tried IPI? I think IPI may be at the top of them all.

Doesn't Rowmark own IPI now as well?

Tony Lenkic
10-06-2016, 10:23 AM
Doesn't Rowmark own IPI now as well?


Yes, but IPI facilities are still same location and products are made same way as before buyout according to local rep.

Mike Null
10-06-2016, 10:26 AM
I'm with Tony.

I've used IPI from Johnsons for over 15 years. It cuts and engraves great and it comes in .030" as I use a lot of that.

Chuck Phillips
10-06-2016, 11:52 AM
We have switched to Gemini from LaserMax and the results are very good. Engraving and vectoring with no problems using the same settings.

Kev Williams
10-06-2016, 1:56 PM
There is another source for this stuff---

http://www.gravograph.us/engraving-source-book/index.php

Only problem is, to my knowledge you can only buy it from New Hermes dealers-- but if you happen to have a place nearby that sells Gravograph/New Hermes stuff, it'll probably be pretty reasonable sans shipping costs.

And it's not 'iffy' stuff, it's top notch. The only reason I buy Romark is price, Delvies is cheaper than my local NH rep.

Tony Lenkic
10-06-2016, 2:05 PM
Kev,

I do buy some gravograph sheets that no one else makes. Quality is top notch as you said.

There are only two suppliers that I know of sell both Rowmark and Gemini sheet stock.........Delvies and Hansen Supply.
That may change if Rowmark cuts them off.

Kev Williams
10-06-2016, 5:03 PM
Funny that Delvies sells all those brands, I only wish they'd stock something besides Rowmark in the store! :)

If I want IPI I have to wait for it, and until this thread I never heard of Gemini, or knew that Delvies sold it...

Scott Toponce
10-21-2016, 10:37 AM
Thanks Kev! Delvie's Plastics is still running strong with engraving materials from Rowmark and Duets by Gemini, along with our massive inventory of color and clear cast acrylic.

Scott Toponce
10-25-2016, 10:21 AM
Thanks for the shout out Kev. Delvie's Plastics is still a Rowmark distributor.
Shipping is a bid deal now that UPS and FedEx Ground is charging a surcharge of $10.50 over and above the regular shipping charge on all packages over 48". When shipping you will be better off using 24" x 24" or smaller.
Keep in mind when ordering online that you will get the best bang for your buck by adding a few extra items to achieve the best volume discounts.

John Frazee
10-25-2016, 12:25 PM
I read a lot of the threads but didn't have time to read them all but did scan through for MARCO. Marco bought Rowmark/IPI. JDS and Marco being competitors is why I would say JDS lost the product. This is what I was told a little while back. Right now Marco is the exclusive distributor for Rowmark.

Tim Bateson
10-25-2016, 2:00 PM
I don't think either of those statements are true. Yes, Marco is a Rowmark distributor. They do not however own Rowmark (unless this happened within the last month). Marco also is not the "exclusive" distributor. An sample of the SE US region distributors: http://www.rowmark.com/distributor/northamerica/usa/southeast.asp

Mike Null
10-25-2016, 2:07 PM
John

I don't believe your information is accurate.

Kev Williams
10-25-2016, 3:46 PM
I just checked my 2016 Marco catalog -- it's 674 pages, and only 9 pages ( pages 12-20 ) are dedicated to engraving laminates, all of which are IPI...

John Frazee
10-25-2016, 5:55 PM
Have either of you done any digging or just making statements? I have talked to two different people at Marco today and they both told me THEY are exclusive with Rowmark and no one else can sell it. Call them and ask if you don't believe me. 800-229-6592.

Gary Hair
10-25-2016, 6:05 PM
Have either of you done any digging or just making statements? I have talked to two different people at Marco today and they both told me THEY are exclusive with Rowmark and no one else can sell it. Call them and ask if you don't believe me. 800-229-6592.

If they are exclusive then explain this:
http://www.rowmark.com/distributor/northamerica/usa/southeast.asp

and this:
http://www.johnsonplastics.com/engraving/popular-brands/rowmark

need I go on?

John Frazee
10-25-2016, 6:21 PM
If they are exclusive then explain this:
http://www.rowmark.com/distributor/northamerica/usa/southeast.asp

and this:
http://www.johnsonplastics.com/engraving/popular-brands/rowmark

need I go on?

I am going by what Marco employees told me. A Marco warehouse employee is the first to tell me a week or so ago and then TWO Marco employees told me on the phone today. I guess when you called they told you different? You posted web links, when were they updated? I may have been given the wrong info by 3 different Marco employees but that's what I went on. Why wouldn't I believe their employees?

Gary Hair
10-25-2016, 6:53 PM
I am going by what Marco employees told me. A Marco warehouse employee is the first to tell me a week or so ago and then TWO Marco employees told me on the phone today. I guess when you called they told you different? You posted web links, when were they updated? I may have been given the wrong info by 3 different Marco employees but that's what I went on. Why wouldn't I believe their employees?

Considering Rowmark bought Johnson Plastics I can't see how they wouldn't be allowed to sell their product. But then again, I only read that on the internet so who knows if it's true or not...

Mike Null
10-25-2016, 7:35 PM
John

Check our list of sponsors.

Kev Williams
10-25-2016, 10:17 PM
Actually, I did dig, found that Rowmark was bought by Bertram Capital Management in 2013, but found nothing newer, no news from Marco about owning or having anything to do with Rowmark..

disclaimer: This info comes from searching the internet, of which I've absolutely and completely lost all faith in when it comes to locating actual facts about anything. So there's that ;)

--Scott Topance with Delvies just stated above, twice, that they're selling Rowmark, I know Johnson's is still selling Rowmark, I buy from both--

I have the 2016 Marco catalog right next to me, but since it may be updated since my copy, I just downloaded it, and searched "Rowmark"... The only reference to 'Rowmark' s in the table of contents, page 685, "FLEXIBRASS BY ROWMARK", which is shown to be on page 12, here's a screenshot of page 12 below, they call it 'Versa-Flex', and Rowmark's name isn't used...
346404

On Marco's home page, in an ad box "Rowmark" is listed with IPI and 'Trophy Flex' as plastics they sell- and in the very next ad box is a "Rowmark customer appreciation sale",
346405


I find this rather odd since most of the basic Rowmark stuff is referenced in this little ad, but I can't find any of it for sale in their catalog?

I'm getting the feeling that Marco may have (very) recently added Rowmark to their line, and their phone reps aren't exactly sure what's going on either, and are making it up as they go along... ;)

Gary Hair
10-26-2016, 12:43 AM
I'm getting the feeling that Marco may have (very) recently added Rowmark to their line, and their phone reps aren't exactly sure what's going on either, and are making it up as they go along... ;)

Exactly my thought.

Tony Lenkic
10-26-2016, 3:35 PM
OK,

It is listed as ABS plastics in which case it is not true laser friendly material like modified acrylics are. Sure some colors will engrave satisfactory but some will not.
Are these sheets made in China like the ASC365 offers?