Sanding disks

[Aaron Craven]

I've been purchasing an assortment box (80, 100, 120, 150, 180, 220, 320, 400, 600) of Abranet strips from Amazon and cutting them into 2" discs. I get about 4 discs from each strip, so I get 4 2" discs in each grit for about $20 total.

I'm wondering if I can't do better, though. I like the way abranet cuts, but I'm not stuck on it either. Looking at Vince's store, I see I can get some of the grits (80, 120, 180, 240, 320, 400) in 2 3/8" disc 15 packs. So... two questions:

First, do I really need the intermediate grits I've been using (100 and 150, mainly)?

Second, are there are more economical alternatives (with Vince or elsewhere) than the Abranet which work as well? (For background, I'm powersanding and I have a bad tendency of going a little too fast, especially with the 80 grit). This is primarily for bowls. I use some bulk sandpaper rolls for spindlework (mostly pens).

[Prashun Patel]

Vince has many fans here and I too have purchased from him.

For fine grits I don't think any brand matters that much, frankly.

But for the rough grits (60-120), I prefer Indasa Rhynogrit. They are tough and the grit lasts a long time. They're IMHO a fantastic buy. I get mine from 2sand.

[Dok Yager]

I completely agree with Vinces. I have bought from other places and his pricing and quality are Great!

http://vinceswoodnwonders.com/

[Aaron Craven]

I completely agree with Vinces. I have bought from other placed and his pricing and quality are Great!

http://vinceswoodnwonders.com/

I decided to go with a starter kit of the blue flex disks. They're smaller than what I'm used to, but that may actually be better. I've been using his backing pads for several months now. They were a huge step above the first crappy backing pad I bought.

[Reed Gray]

As to what grits you need, of course it depends. I am going through a sanding binge now getting ready for a show, and as always experimenting. I am not leaning to stepping up slowly for the coarser grits, actually had to use 100 grit today (recent experimenting with negative rake scrapers and much finer CBN wheels has made things a lot cleaner....), but mostly to remove 'patina' or maybe oxidation from the wet bowls drying. You can step from 100 to 150, but if you use 120 in between, it may not save much time, but especially in the coarse grits, it is easier to pull out 100 grit scratches with 120, than with 150. I go to 180, then 220, 320, and 400. There are some who go from 120 to 220, and again for me it is less work to hit at least one grit in between.

To get your abrasives to cut, it is all about traction. Too fast, and you are just spinning your wheels and not really going anywhere. It also adds heat to the mix which can cause heat checks in the wood. So with my slow speed angle drills, on coarser grits, I am at half speed at the most, and less as I go up to the finer grits. No more pressure than the weight of the drill, again it causes heat, and makes the drill wear out faster.

I did try a mesh type of abrasive from Vince once. The coarse grits, up to about 220 cut much slower than the standard abrasives, which I am guessing that is because there is more abrasive on the disc to cut. When you get to the finer grits, they cut about the same.

Prashun, I may have to try some of that abrasive....

robo hippy

[Jamie Straw]

[SNip] Looking at Vince's store, I see I can get some of the grits (80, 120, 180, 240, 320, 400) in 2 3/8" disc 15 packs. So... two questions:

First, do I really need the intermediate grits I've been using (100 and 150, mainly)?[Snip]

The list of grits in your post look like the ones in his starter kit. You can get the intermediate grits also, I just ordered some.

[Aaron Craven]

The list of grits in your post look like the ones in his starter kit. You can get the intermediate grits also, I just ordered some.

Yeah. I was just wondering if I could skip them. As it stands, I decided to try the blue flex discs first in hopes they'll work nearly as well -- they're much cheaper.

[Prashun Patel]

Aaron,

You can go from 100-150-220 or from 120-180-240. I don't see much benefit to getting stuff in between, but don't skip grits.


Also, do yourself a HUGE favor by buying packs of 50 or 100 of grits up to 220/240. Having a million discs will encourage you to use them as intended: quickly disposable objects. Especially at the rough grits, where you're smoothing tool marks and end grain, you should 'use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it'. I am the chief offender of this law, but it's a true one. Do as I say - not as I do.... 90% of my sanding is on the rougher grits < 180. Once you get up to the smooth grits, the hard work's been done, and you're sanding very quickly with the smooth grits so having a bazillion of the smooth grits isn't as critical; in many cases you may even choose to stop @ 220/240 and start applying finish. In this case, the discs are less valuable than wet/dry finishing sheets.

[Doug Ladendorf]

I have a bunch of Vince's disks and they are great. I also have Abranet from Steve at http://www.turningwood.com. Another great guy and fellow turner with excellent products and reasonable prices.

Doug

[Brian Kent]

I use Vince's. The pattern that works best for me is (80 if needed), 120-150-220-320. Then on some woods and finishes 400-600-800-1200.

I don't move up more than 50% from the previous grit. I do sometimes go from lathe-on hand sanding to slow lathe power sanding to lathe off hand sanding with the grain as needed.

[Bob Bouis]

I am about to try some mandrels made for auto body PSA rolls (2.75" wide). Seems like it should work fine for most applications. Cost is about $.06 per "disc."

339743

[Vince Welch]

Hi Aaron,
This post has been edited.
Let me chime in here and perhaps answer some of your questions. 1. Intermediate grits? Let me start off by saying and also so hopefully this post does not get deleted...lol what I say to folks is I just offer my reasoning and you are the boss. DO what works for you! Now then... most folks turning wood are NOT professional woodworkers. Obviously right? And with that they are not professional sanders. Yet sanding is often one of the most frustrating parts of creating a project. Even in school about all one gets regarding education is start with a low grit and progress through till all the scratch marks are gone. I say we can be better educated. I spend a lot of time and effort helping people who are really willing to learn about sanding improve with their efforts. So getting to the question... yes people progress through the grits by skipping up and down the grits. What is their success rate??? Well that jumps up and down too probably. My goal is to help people get to a 90% or better sanding success rate and I do so if they are open and willing to learn. So there is the progression of 80,120,180 etc. and maybe that progress works...if so great! Your 80 grit 120, 180 or any other grit cannot be too worn or you run the risk of sanding failure at the end of your sanding process. Question... when exactly should we change out sanding discs? It is very subjective and what I tell folks to if you are questioning the disk your working with get yourself a fresh never used discs in one hand and place the used disk in the other hand. Close your eyes, feel the two discs and ask yourself if it is time to throw the worn used disc away! It sounds elementary or perhaps even silly but it is you that will have to go back and sand that piece again if you foul the process.
Sometime I think of sanding using small steps such as 80 grit 100, 120, 150, 180 etc. as I do buying insurance. I really do not like paying for insurance but I know as soon as I let my insurance lapse due to nonpayment Murphy's Law will kick in and I will be paying the bigger price in the end. Regarding sanding, if you are using 80, 120, 180 but your 120 grit is worn and should be replaced… but you know how we are we are… we hold on trying to these discs trying get everything out of each disc we can. Maybe we luck out and get through the sanding process but maybe we do not! If we do not we have to sand through the process again because we do not know where the sanding process broke down. Often at this point we start taking guesses at where to start sanding again only because we are trying to get away with not sanding through the whole process again! Does any of this sound familiar? Please do not ask me how I have come to know all of this. In addition to my personal experience I know I am not alone because I have spoken to countless numbers of folks at symposiums, telephone calls, etc. asking me "WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?" Remember at the top of this post I said most of us are not professional woodworkers or sanders!!! The reality is most of us are hobbyists at best and we are out in our shops to have a good time so why not line yourself out for success with your sanding right from the start. So back to the 120 grit discs is worn and needs to be replaced... what if on the front side you sanded with a 100 grit disc then your worn 120 followed by a 150 grit and so on through the grits. I think you are more likely to have better sanding success taking smaller steps through the progression. Now I know some of you will say "oh you are just trying to get folks to buy more sandpaper!" I understand why someone might say that but I am truly that is not the case here! Hopefully you will see and agree that by taking the smaller sanding progression you will spend less time with each grit because the steps are shorter in distance allowing each disc to last longer. More importantly now hopefully you are going to have greater sanding success because even if your 120 was fouled you still sanded with 100 on the front side and 150 on the back side providing you with what I think of as an insurance policy for sanding success! Finally, often it seems when it comes to sanding there can be almost be a competitive nature in that you start asking folks where do you start sanding? People will tell you all sorts of things. The first guy might say… I start at 180 grit 220 if I'm having a good day! The guy standing next to him says I start sanding at 320 grit! The next guy standing to next to him says I only have 600 grit and higher in my shop! My god it never ends! Years ago I learned I had to put my ego on the shelf if I wanted to learn to sand with success. I spoke to Ray Key from England just last year about this very topic. Ray has been turning wood since the 1970s and he still often starts sanding with 80 or 120! Why? He wants success when he sands and his time and energy is worth something.
Abranet is a nice product. The abrasive is Silicon Carbide (SC) not Aluminum Oxide (AO) meaning it is a bit sharper but will also break down a bit faster than AO discs. Again, the thing to remember is just because the backing mesh clears easy does not mean the disc remains as good as new! GO back to the feel test I suggested when you feel the disc might be worn because you will have to must deal with the results. I could go on but this post is long enough. I hope this makes sense and help somebody. Vince
Please see my post listed below.

[Aaron Craven]

Vince, thanks so much for your reply! It certainly makes a lot of sense. One of the things I'm rapidly learning is that I need to be more willing to let a worn piece of sandpaper go rather than try to get every last bit of grit out of it. As Prashun said, "use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it" (I just wish someone else actually was!). This is one of the reasons I'm looking to get away from Abranet. It's a great product, but it's also very expensive.

Oh -- and I'm not one of the "start at 220" guys -- a more like start-at-80-and-spend-a-long-time-there guy :D

I got my 1" blue flex starter kit yesterday and am looking forward to giving it a try. If it works out as good as I think it will, I'm sure I'll be placing a larger order for a nice stock of discs.

[Doug Ladendorf]

I was recently having some trouble with tiny scratches at the end of the process. Yea, where do I go back to? Hat to tell so I just take a stab. Lately I have been a bit obsessive, power sanding then sanding by hand with the grain on each grit. Seems to work but it's a lot of labor. Changing out paper more often helps too. Sandpaper can be legendary for its longevity but even the best needs to be changed out often.

[Prashun Patel]

Vince, with due respect, I had a little trouble following your post. I am certain there is more wisdom in there than I (humbly) distilled, but can you help me summarize your points - in case others had trouble reading this:

1) Don't overuse grits. If you don't know if your paper is too worn, use a fresh piece and compare with your fingers.
2) Don't be embarrassed to start at lower grits.
3) Using grits in close succession is insurance about using slightly overworn paper at a particular stage.

Last, can you share your thoughts on powersanding speed? I believe you recommend slowing down at higher grits because the paper can load?

[John K Jordan]

Vince, with due respect, I had a little trouble following your post. I am certain there is more wisdom in there than I (humbly) distilled, but can you help me summarize your points - in case others had trouble reading this: ...


The text on that message was run together and so hard to read I just gave up. Too bad, looked like some interesting stuff hidden there.

I do very little power sanding, sand mostly by hand, and before moving to a finer grit I ALWAYS sand across the scratches I just made with the paper I just used, preferably with the grain. My theory is if the sandpaper in my hand won't get rid of the scratches I see, those scratches are probably deeper scratches left over from an earlier coarser grit - moving to a finer grit will never remove them. If there is a problem, fix it now before wasting time and a bunch of finer sandpaper.

When I do power sand, I use a 2" random orbital sander and a slow and gentle speed, mostly with the lathe turned off. It is sad to see otherwise beautiful work with circular sanding scratches. I haven't used a rotary power sander for years. After hand scraping with small steel card scrapers I rarely use anything coarser than 320. I have no problem with those who power sand with 60 and 80 grit but the card scraper method eliminates clouds of dust, saves me a lot of time, and preserves detail.

Just yesterday I got a 3" random orbital sander from Ken Rizza (Woodturners Wonders) that I'll try out and review when I get or make some 3" sanding disks.

JKJ

[Dan Jechura]

I also use Vince "s products but I am still trying to decide if I like the blue or green or gold backed disk"s better. I do like woodcraft's 3 inch wave edge sand paper.

Dan jechura

[Vince Welch]

I really should not try to write post at 2 a.m. sorry about that poorly written post. Here is a shorter version of what I was trying to say for those who did not understand.
1. The sanding progression most folks are aware of is not skipping more than50% of the grit you are using. Ex 80,120,180,240,320 etc. If you are having success using this progression… fantastic! However, if you are not happy with your results then perhaps option 2 is a better choice.
2. Option 2. Take smaller steps through your sanding progression! Ex 80, 100, 120, 150, 180, 240, 320. The advantage is if your 120 grit is worn but you have not tossed it and as a result the 120 grit disc does not perform as well as it should then using option 2 (taking smaller steps) may be the better option for you. The reason is because while the 120 grit did not perform as you expected you sanded the piece with 100 and 150 grits before and after the 120 so chances are you will still have a high sanding success rate even using the worn 120 grit by mistake. The cost requires you adding 100 and 150 grits to your abrasive arsenal. However, my experience shows me taking smaller steps through the grits allows me to spend less time using each discs. I am able to use the discs on more projects as a result. More importantly, I have higher a success rate using option 2.
In regardsto using any brand… what I tell folks if to try to stay with one brand that you like because all brands are not all the same! A 320 grit from company may very different from another! Just becausethey are all rated under the FEPA or P system does NOT mean they are the same. This is a common misconception. Often folks will have abrasives from different manufactures they have bought over time. For example, I have a 240 grit disc from a popular manufacture and a 240 grit disc from another popular manufacture and they are not the same even though they are both rated under the FEPA or P system! Again go with one brand that works best for you! Hopefully this is more clear and easier to understand. Thanks, Vince

[Vince Welch]

Vince, with due respect, I had a little trouble following your post. I am certain there is more wisdom in there than I (humbly) distilled, but can you help me summarize your points - in case others had trouble reading this:

1) Don't overuse grits. If you don't know if your paper is too worn, use a fresh piece and compare with your fingers.
2) Don't be embarrassed to start at lower grits.
3) Using grits in close succession is insurance about using slightly overworn paper at a particular stage.

Last, can you share your thoughts on powersanding speed? I believe you recommend slowing down at higher grits because the paper can load?


My thought concerning power sanding speed... Most folks use a drill to power sand and that works well. A drill provides torque that helps dig out deep scratches and tools marks especially with the lower grits. I use firm pressure NOT HARD pressure allowing the sanding discs to do the work! For a 12-13 inch bowl lathes speed starts at 600ish RPM and my drill speed is half throttle. My drill never gets hot! It might get a bit warm but generally that is all. What I do is feel the resistance of the abrasive discs against the wood piece. Just like when we use our turning tools we feel for the cut. Well we can also feel for the resistance of the abrasive against the wood. Because when we are sanding we are cutting/abrading the wood or skating/skidding across the wood. We want to maximize our cutting and minimize our skidding across the wood. Controlling your sanding speed is one way one way to make that happen. Finally, because 320 grit is not as aggressive as 80 grit as I progress through the grits I lower my lathe speed each grit. So while I may start at 600ish per 12-13 bowl when I am sanding with 320 grit my lathe is probably only spinning 100 rpm. I hope this helps, Vince

[Aaron Craven]

...when I am sanding with 320 grit my lathe is probably only spinning 100 rpm...

WARNING: Whining to follow...

The fun of my lathe is that 550rpm is the slowest possible speed... *sigh*

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for both of your follow ups, Vince. I personally got a good deal out of both of them...