Saw Till Design

[Matthew Springer]

Now that the hand tools rack has cleared enough random tools off the bench to let me find my bench, I need to make a plane rack and a saw till. Aka I need to stop hanging my saws on the wall on nails.

My main constraint is I only have about two feet of wall space. so I was looking for a design that puts the planes up high and the saws hanging handle up / blade down below. I'll be keeping the joinery saws in the rack I already have so this would be for the 10 odd panel saws I have.

So question: why do 95% of the designs on the interwebs seem to have the saws resting on handles with blades up? I'm assuming the main reason is the saws don't all have the same hang angle if stored blade down? Whereas if stored handle down the two points of contact (bar and blade tip) define the angle. Something else?

Also how are people storing big bow saws for those of us that roll that way?

[Nick Stokes]

I've seen saw tills that are vertical as you say, but below them, people have used string or leather straps to dangle the planes vertically by the knob... looks scary as heck to me, but I'm sure it's far more secure than it looks.

[Jim Koepke]

I've seen saw tills that are vertical as you say, but below them, people have used string or leather straps to dangle the planes vertically by the knob... looks scary as heck to me, but I'm sure it's far more secure than it looks.

It is fine and dandy until one of the strings breaks. I wouldn't hang planes that way either, but to each their own.

jtk

[Bob Glenn]

There's a nice saw till article in the current PWW mag. Not the style you're wanting, but worth a look.

[Tom M King]

I have the handles in alternating directions, so I can pack more in the same space.

[Stanley Covington]

Matthew:

I have mentioned this on the Forum before, but I am not fond of open saw tills for the purpose of permanent storage of saws in a shop environment because they do not protect the saws from dust, humidity changes, and the resulting rust-inducing condensation.

Unlike the thousands of little green men (many wearing red hats) with knives that chase me whenever I go out my front door :p this is a problem anyone can see, especially those that live in a hot and humid climate, or in in seaside areas. You might want to consider the protective qualities of your saw storage solution, especially if you too see the little green men.

But for short-term storage, an open till or rack makes perfect sense.

You bring up a very valid point about a saw's handle orientation in the saw till or rack. Steel warps (vs "deflects or "bends") over time in response to pressure, more than wood, as a matter of fact. This is plastic deformation, and unless corrected, is permanent. In fact, if a precision steel straightedge is stored leaning against a wall, it may well warp. The same exact thing happens with saw blades. The methods of preventing this slow plastic deformation ("creep") is to either hang the tool from a central hole or other connection (such as a handle) or to support the blade evenly long its length. Therefore, space permitting, the best solution, IMO, is to store a saw with the blade supported on the rack by the handle with the blade hanging straight down.

I don't have a picture, but I built a saw rack that follows this principle. Essentially, it is a 1-1/4" thick board, oriented horizontally, and supported by vertical boards at each end. This board has a vertical slot cut into into it a little wider than the saw blades. The saw blade slips into the slot with the handle above the board, and the blade hanging down. Voila. My rack is designed to hold Japanese saws which are much shorter and narrower than Western saws, but the principle is applicable to Western saws too. With four such horizontal boards, it will store 20 Japanese saws.

My saw rack does not have a back. I hang it from a wire rack with a couple of hooks.

It is not a new or original idea. Just an alternative to the open-air Sacred Saw Alter that is currently in fashion.

The idea of hanging saws by a string or wire makes me cringe!

Stan

[Pat Barry]

Hi Stanley, my understanding is that plastic deformation is permanent. Its what happens when the material is strained to the point where it doesn't spring back, thus taking a permanent set. Say you take a paper clip and bend it a bit, - it will spring back to shape. Bend that same clip a bit too far and it won't. That's because of plastic deformation. The thing with steel and most materials is that the plastic deformation is accompanied by localized changes in grain structure and hardness. Thus it is difficult to bend that same paper clip back to its original position because in order to do so you need to cause more plastic deformation, overcoming the initial damage and cause even more local work hardening - this leads to fracture failures. Creep is phenomenon that is deformation due to strain but strain that happens over a long period of time. I didn't think that could happen in a normal, minimal load condition such as storage or similar circumstance for steel. In my work we see creep as a concern for soldered connections which might be strained over time in a heated condition (inside an electronic device for example with poor ventilation).

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Stanley, my understanding is that plastic deformation is permanent. Its what happens when the material is strained to the point where it doesn't spring back, thus taking a permanent set. Say you take a paper clip and bend it a bit, - it will spring back to shape. Bend that same clip a bit too far and it won't. That's because of plastic deformation. The thing with steel and most materials is that the plastic deformation is accompanied by localized changes in grain structure and hardness. Thus it is difficult to bend that same paper clip back to its original position because in order to do so you need to cause more plastic deformation, overcoming the initial damage and cause even more local work hardening - this leads to fracture failures. Creep is phenomenon that is deformation due to strain but strain that happens over a long period of time. I didn't think that could happen in a normal, minimal load condition such as storage or similar circumstance for steel. In my work we see creep as a concern for soldered connections which might be strained over time in a heated condition (inside an electronic device for example with poor ventilation).

Pat, I believe your understanding is correct, but your conclusion is a bit off, IMO.

Nearly all materials creep, including steel and concrete. Wood does too, but comparatively little. How much steel creeps and how long it takes depends on the loading conditions and nature of the steel. Thinner materials are more likely to exhibit creep than thicker ones. This tendency is aggravated by the very nature of high-quality saws which are differentially hardened, taper ground, and hammer tensioned with lots of intentional internal stresses.

Sorry for the lecture....

Most people that use their saws regulary will never notice this warpage, and even if it does develop, will assume they tweaked it accidentally. But like the little green men, just because you don't notice them does not mean they are not there, kept at bay only by my custom aluminum foil cap!

in any case, saws are especially at risk as I know from spending lots of money on blacksmiths to straighten out old but unused handmade saws that were stored improperly.

When given a choice, it is better in my opinion to store saws in a way that reduces the risk of this avoidable warpage.

Stan

[Josh Nelson]

Hey! I'm making something like this right now. I found a great little enclosed saw til design in Wakeling's book, "Things to Make in Your Shop." It has a vertical rest for the saws and the blades slip down into slots cut for the blades. The original design calls for keeping a small dish of kerosene in the bottom but I will instead leave pocket for a bag of Dry-Fit to keep moisture under control.

[Stanley Covington]

Hey! I'm making something like this right now. I found a great little enclosed saw til design in Wakeling's book, "Things to Make in Your Shop." It has a vertical rest for the saws and the blades slip down into slots cut for the blades. The original design calls for keeping a small dish of kerosene in the bottom but I will instead leave pocket for a bag of Dry-Fit to keep moisture under control.

Josh:

Please show us drawings or pics if you get a chance. I will take some pictures of mine later this week and post them.

Stan

[Josh Nelson]

Josh:

Please show us drawings or pics if you get a chance. I will take some pictures of mine later this week and post them.

Stan



Of course.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Infernal2/Saw%20Till_zpswf03rpbd.png?t=1466470690

It's hard to see but it is a closing cabinet. The text notes:


The case illustrated in Fig. 25 was designed to protect saws from dampness in a basement shop that was none too dry. It is hung on the wall, and a dish of kerosene is kept in the bottom.

Another advantage of a cabinet of this type is that the teeth are not exposed to accidental damage as when the saws a re hung on nails in the open shop.

The box can be built of waste lumber 7/8 inch thick. It is 12 inches deep. 14 1/4 in. wide, and 42 in. high. The saw holder is 12 1/2 by 11 in. with slots 2 1/2 in. apart, running with the grain. There should be a reinforcing cleat 4 by 12 1/2 in. across the underside of the saw holder, at the back. The foors , too should be well cleated to prevent warping, and hung with three hinges.

Finish the case with stain and varnish, or paint, as preferred.

[Glen Canaday]

I have way more saws than that guy in the picture. I like the idea expressed, though. When my current build is done the next item may well be a saw till like that, but much more.

[Jim Ritter]

My dad was not a woodworker but he had a cabinet like that one illustrated with the pan of kerosene in the bottom. I did not take it when we cleaned out his house as there is no more room in my shop as it is. The odd thing is he only had about two saws, but there were slots for about ten. It was a bit different though it had the door on the front like the one above but the top was hinged so one could lift the saws straight up and kerosene compartment stayed closed.
Jim

[Stanley Covington]

Fascinating.

I have heard of using kerosene (usually combined with oil) applied to metal to prevent rust, but I never heard of using a dish of kerosene in an enclosed space to control rust. Is this a useful method, or just and old-timey leap of faith?

Stan

[David Bassett]

Is there a chemist in the house that can explain to me how a dish of kerosene prevents rust?

(I understand oiling or waxing the metal can protect it from moisture and that kerosene is (sorta') a light volatile oil. But, how does a dish protect the metal? Does it evaporate from the dish and then condense on the metal?)

Thanks.

(ETA: I was typing while Stanley was.)

[Matthew Springer]

That's a great scan! It seems to confirm what I'd suspected which is if you can get the hang angles lined up there's no particular magic to handle down. Handle up is probably marginally better for the blade straightness but I seriously doubt it all that much better given my sawing technique. I wouldn't have thought about the slots running with the grain but that's a good idea.

I do have two things going for me:
- Almost all the saws I've inherited need new handles so I'm somewhat at liberty to pick the "hang angle" if I may use that term.
- This is Colorado and there is no moisture. In fact the climate is actively trying to dehydrate me and my family into a prune which took some getting used to when I moved here.

The Oracle of Google seems to indicate kerosene will indeed absorb moisture. Pure SWAG, but in this day and age I'm pretty sure a bunch of silica beads or your local disposable diaper hydro gel filling will likely absorb several orders of magnitude more water. And be way easier to contain. Also smell nicer. Also not spill all over. Also not catch on fire.

Obviously the trick only works if it's an enclosed cabinet. In my case I suspect most of my rust issues are from sawdust and the salt/sweat from my hands not getting properly wiped off.

[Stanley Covington]

Of course.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Infernal2/Saw%20Till_zpswf03rpbd.png?t=1466470690

It's hard to see but it is a closing cabinet. The text notes:

Josh:

That is exactly the sort of cabinet I would recommend for permanent storage. I don't have one that nice, at least, not one that stores the saws vertically within an enclosed cabinet.

It appears the saws in the cabinet are inserted with the cutting edge facing out. This seems like a convenient and natural orientation for inserting or removing a saw, but I would be concerned about the possibility of cutting my knuckles or even wrist when inserting or removing a saw from a the cabinet when it is full and I am in a hurry. I think I would orient the cutting edge toward the cabinet's back, and attach a sacrificial strip of softwood to the back to keep the blades from scratching the cabinet's back.

Thank you very much for the image.

Stan

PS: As someone who is paranoid about rust (and little green men), the fellow's hand on the sawblade in the image is disconcerting. Salty sweat and handprints are very effective at rusting saw blades.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Is there a chemist in the house that can explain to me how a dish of kerosene prevents rust?

(I understand oiling or waxing the metal can protect it from moisture and that kerosene is (sorta') a light volatile oil. But, how does a dish protect the metal? Does it evaporate from the dish and then condense on the metal?)


Well, I would not recommend that method because fumes of kerosene are not very healthy. Depending on the oil source and production it also contains aromatic compounds that are known now to be unhealthy and carcinogenic.

Otherwise, any liquid has so called fumes pressure. Fumes replace air in the closed box and along moisture in it, so to speak. Here there is also additional effect of condensation on the metal parts. When you take saw out it will continue to smell kerosene. But this doesn't add much to corrosion prevention once moisture (water fumes) is forced out, I think.

Box should be closed but not air-tight closed. It will also leak kerosene fumes out. Other similar volatile liquids can be used in place of kerosene, as long as they do not contain water or other rust promoting things. Similarly, one can use can with compressed gas and open it inside the box when it is closed to force humid air out. Has to be repeated each time fresh air comes in the box. Similar to what one would do with open can of oil finish, for example.

For long term storage it is better to submerge saw in kerosene :) So, one barrel of oil with some holes in it to put saw plates through them, hehe.

[Josh Nelson]

Is there a chemist in the house that can explain to me how a dish of kerosene prevents rust? (I understand oiling or waxing the metal can protect it from moisture and that kerosene is (sorta') a light volatile oil. But, how does a dish protect the metal? Does it evaporate from the dish and then condense on the metal?) Thanks. (ETA: I was typing while Stanley was.) I have no clue if it actually works but I've seen plenty of old clocks with kerosene dishes in the bottom. The idea being that as the kerosene evaporates it lubricates the sealed interior. To be honest, it sounds like a fire hazard to me. *Oops, missed the posts above mine.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Some more chemistry comes to my mind...

Kerosene prevents water and oxygen to meet on the steel surface. It prevents corrosion by building a barrier between reactive parts. Like all oils do.

Another method would be to get rid of oxygen inside the box. It is required for steel to rust. One might try to burn oxygen out by igniting those kerosene fumes! :) (For the record, when I was young I tried that method above. It has some collateral damage to it.)

Alternatively, something that absorbs water from the air would also prevent rust. In my school times I used CuSO4 to do that. Normally, it contains water and looks like big blue crystals. Put it to the oven for half an hour and it becomes white powder and absorbs water. Plate with this thing on the bottom of the box would remove the water vapors. Put it back to oven when it becomes too much blue and use it again. There are some other compounds of similar properties. Also some of them sold commercially as dehumidifiers. Some can be regenerated some not. Requires box to be closed and better yes but not necessarily air-tight.

Plants are known to produce isoprene - volatile liquid as well. Even our body produces it, it is in our breath. Unfortunately, in big quantities it has anesthetic effect and can cause paralysis and death. Hmm... also not safe, even though it is environment friendly.

There is also electrochemical method of corrosion prevention, so called cathodic protection. Make electrical contact between the saws in the box and connect them to a battery "-" pole. Make bottom of the box from some other metal or better graphite and connect it to "+". Required voltage of the battery would depend on distance between two electrodes and shape. If it would closely follow shape of the saw (but not make a contact with it) then it will be less. Probably even less than 1000 Volts. Would also depend on humidity. More humidity less voltage. As extreme example, it will be few volts if saws would be submerged into water.

Clearly, chemistry is fascinating thing and can give a lot of recipes. That's why I end up with master degree in chemistry, more or less. :D

Now, you have some concepts of rust prevention to consider in your design!

[steven c newman]

Most of my saws hang from ceiling joists. Since the shop is in a basement, I can call those overhead 2x10s joists. One of the tills is mere a large wooden jawed clamp. I clamp it to the joist, and use the two handles to hang about six saws on each. There are a few long screws overhead as well, mainly from one or three saws ( like coping saws/hacksaws)

Till cabinet? Well one could just walk into the local BORG, and find an Upper Cabinet in their Kitchen/Bath cabinet areas. French cleat it to the wall, and fill it up. Close the door that came with the cabinet. You can add either a slotted 1x6 near the top to hold saws by their handles, with a smaller 1x to keep the plates seperate down below. Slot that one as needed.

Plane till? Mine seems to do just fine...
339613
Some were in use when this was taken. Till will hold 12 saws
339614
Plane till, leans back about...15-20 degrees, just enough that the planes will sit still.

[Greg Krummel]

I have heard some cautions about intentionally drying out saw storage with dessicant due to excessive drying and cracking of the wood. I haven't verified this, but something to consider and maybe try with less valuable saws. Rust protecting vapors or coatings wouldn't have this drying effect, and sealing tools inside a container with a known low moisture should help avoid rusting and cracking simultaneously.

If anyone does want to go the desiccant route, you can get large packages for cheap from most industrial suppliers.

[David Bassett]

Some more chemistry comes to my mind...

Thank you... I think? :)

My first thought was the possibility of executing your combustion method accidentally. (My second thought was how stinky real kerosene is.) I don't think I'll be trying this form of rust prevention, though the saw till plan has me scheming.

[John Glendening]

There's a nice saw till article in the current PWW mag. Not the style you're wanting, but worth a look.

And it looks good, too. For those who are concerned about keeping saws or planes out in the open air, puts doors on the till. In my opinion, hanging saws blade down needlessly complicates the storage issue. As noted, you probably don't want the weight of the saw resting on the toe end, and making an efficient way of storing saws, making sure the plates and teeth don't bounce off each other, and ease of placing and retrieving saws - handle down with the saw at a slight angle with each plate resting in a groove is probably more ideal. Plane storage is similar, but you can either store them vertically, or you can store them laying in horizontal "cubbies". No matter what, you're probably going to need more the 2 linear feet of wall space.

Or something portable/on wheels.

[Sean Hughto]

Two feet is plenty of space for a tried and true till, if you ask me.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2185/2233245819_e9e8773041_o.jpg

And planes can go in another cabinet above or below:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3108/3256578957_17e609cbbb_o.jpg

[Stanley Covington]

Josh:

Please show us drawings or pics if you get a chance. I will take some pictures of mine later this week and post them.

Stan

I have attached pics of my sawrack. It currently holds Disston No.7, a few exchangeable-blade Japanese saws, and a couple of older handmade high-quality saws.

It is simple tenon & pin & pine construction, no back, finished with milkpaint. Very inexpensive. I use this only for temporary storage when I have a project going on, just to keep the saws cleared off my workbench. The saws rest in a slot in the horizontal board. This board has a lip rabbeted into the outward-facing top surface to retain the saws. They cannot slip and fall. I do not recommend this arrangement for long-term storage of valuable saws in humid climates or for workshops in close proximity to teenage girls and the humidity fluctuations they create.

Portability is important to me in my current job. This sawrack is suspended from the side of a wire rack (collapsable and on casters) by two metal hooks.

I have also attached a pic of its sister plane and mortise gauge rack. Similar construction, similar purpose, but it rests on the floor and is kept from falling over by two feet attached with screws. It is of course intended for holding only Japanese planes and mortice gauges.

Stan

[Tom Vanzant]

I have 2sf of LV anti-corrosion drawer liner stapled to the inside of the door of my plane cabinet. After each day's use, my planes are stripped down and wiped with an oily rag. Rust has not been a problem, even in my high-temp/high humidity Houston garage shop.

[Charles Bjorgen]

Thanks for the photos, Stanley. I may have to try your "handles up" system. I'll probably do a first one for my back saws. I don't have a lot of wall space in my shop so your system seems pretty economical space wise.

[Tom M King]

Here are some pictures I took today of my first Saw Box. It's sat on a floor since I made it in 1974 out of Yellow Pine 2x10's and wood screws. I've since made one that holds a lot more saws, but it was nowhere near where I was to take pictures today. I can't remember how many the newer one holds, but probably around 15, packed closer with handles on opposing ends. The newer one has dovetailed corners, and a plain paneled lid. I'll get some pictures when I go to that shop.

This old one just holds some banged up users in a small variety for different carpentry purposes.

339791

[Jim Davis]

Saws are spring steel. If the issue of creep were something to worry about, there would have been a lot of cars dragging the ground back when they had leaf springs. Didn't happen, though some did sag and have to be replaced. There is essentially no force on a saw plate standing with the handle down. To make a kink or bend in a saw plate it has to be sprung beyond the elastic limit. Atkins used to advertise their saws as being able to have the toe bent clear back to touch the handle without any permanent bend.

As for kerosene and other special ways to prevent rust, I think those were the inventions of folks whose garage/shops had dirt floors, porous walls and air leaks around windows and doors.

[steven c newman]

And heated their homes with either Kerosene or Fuel Oil. Might as well toss an opened box of Arm & Hammer in there....

One thing I have noticed in the saw till in Tool Chest #1......where the pine slots to hold the saws touches the saws' plates,,,a line of rust appears. If the same set of slots had been cut into Oak, black lines will soon appear.

I like mine hanging up overhead. I don't have to bend down to dig one saw out, I just reach up and pick the one I need. They also seem to be above the dust in the shop.

[Clay Parrish]

One thing I have noticed in the saw till in Tool Chest #1......where the pine slots to hold the saws touches the saws' plates,,,a line of rust appears. If the same set of slots had been cut into Oak, black lines will soon appear.



Perhaps the offending board could be replaced with a strip of HDPE...or would St. Roy appear behind me in a puff of black smoke for suggesting plastic?