Tilt - Left vs Right

[Andy Hoyt]

I'm thinking of getting a new cabinet saw mostly so I can get as far away from my Unifence as possible; but also because my current saw has a cracked trunnion and is under-powered for my current work.

I'm feeling conflicted over this left and right tilt thing. I've never run a left tilter and I'm finding it tough to visualize things vis-a-vis the benefits and associated learning curves with revised techiques.

So please chime in with your opinions - good, bad, or indifferent.

Please don't discuss brand names unless it's germaine to your answer.

Thanks, Andy Hoyt

[Von Bickley]

I have used left tilt and right tilt. I presently have a right tilt in my shop because it was a gift.

I can honestly say that I WILL NEVER have another right tilt table saw.

[JayStPeter]

I remember on Badger Pond, a left v. right tilt thread was the equivalent of an F v. E thread here. I read them with interest and eventually decided that since I was used to left-tilt, my new saw would be left-tilt also.
There is an argument of safety for left-tilt that says since the blade tilts away from the fence, you don't have to move the fence to the other side of the blade (the side you're not used to) for beveled rips. Some sort of slider makes the right tilt more safe. Frankly, I don't bevel cut enough that it is an important consideration for me. Doing what you like and are used to may be more safe anyway.

Jay

[David Duke]

I agree with Von, I have used left tilt saws for over 25 years about 2 yrs ago I go a pretty good price on a right tilt saw and to yet I'm still not use to it. My main area of concern is that the stock seems to pinch between the right tilted blade and fence, where on a left tilt this doesn't happen. Another disadvantage IMHO to the right tilt is since in most instances the long side of the miter is facing out you must cut with the "good" side down taking a chance of possibly marring the surface, especially when using sheet good.

These are just my observations and I know that others probably would have nothing but right tilt, thats why they make both available.

[Keith Burns]

I used a left tilt for years on my contractors saw. When I got my jet cabinet saw I got the right tilt because the left tilt motor interfered with my slider attachment. I've not regreted it for a minute. I think this is one of those things that is really a personal preference.

[Chris Giles]

Andy,

All saws used to be right-tilt years ago, and I dreamed of having a saw that would tilt the other way. Having the blade tilt towards the fence seemed to be a constant inconvenience in my day-to-day operations and I was forever moving the fence to the left side of the blade to avoid this. The day they unveiled the left-tilt blade to my attention, I bought one. A Jet 10". I have never looked back.

[Ken Garlock]

Andy, taxi over to the Bridgewood site, and sign up for a 10LTS and never look back. :cool:

[Mark Stutz]

Cutting a dado is the only difference I've found. You have to remeber to measure directly from the blade to the fence rather than use the integral scale. DAMHIKT.

Mark

[roy knapp]

dewalt 746x left tilt :)

[John Shuk]

I opted for a right tilt but the reason was so that I could get the Bench dogs router table/wing extension. It won't fit on a left-tilt saw.

[Dev Emch]

This is one of the oldest arguments in online woodworking forums. Yaawwwwnnnnnnnn.........

In the eary days, it was unisaw versus powermatic and everything else was that overseas junk. I have to say that the overseas junk has really improved over the last 15 or so years... enough to impress even the most hardened. But the argument still remains about left versus right tilt.

The unisaw was not the first tablesaw out there. The big industrial companies like oliver, tannewitz, northfield, beech, etc. all built tablesaws. In the early days, the arbor was fixed and the table tilts. Here you saw machines like the oliver model 80 and model 90.

Later on, came saws that had tilting arbors. In the case of the oliver 270 for example, the motor was on the right side and the fully tilting blade flask was on the left side. Here, the entire blade flask tilts outward. As most folks were right handed, this was convenient as was the ability to change blades without crawling into a hole. Remember, the extended rip capability usuaually meant huge cast iron right side table extensions. For years and years, this was the standard. It also meant that the blade tilts away from the slider or rolling top and not into it.

When delta came up with the cabinet saw and they are the father of the modern cabinet saw design in use today, they had to shrink the cabinet. In so doing, the motor had to lean out of one side. Thus, you have more mass on one side of the cabinet than on the other. Since your rip fence, rip rails and extension table were on the right side, it made sense to put the motor hang on the right side also. When used with a stand alone extension feed table, this almost eliminates the possibility of the machine tipping over. Also note that the first unisaws had cast iron base units to help keep the machine on the ground.

Later on, powermatic came up with the left tilt design to be different. I often wonder if there is some relic from the past weighing in at 1800 pounds with tons of surface rust and a left tilt arbor. True, it does solve the issue of tilting the blade into the fence, but it also ruins the ability to install a full figured sliding table on the saw. Also, there is nothing stoping you from using the fence on the left side of the blade if this is an issue.

After all these years and after using small table saws and big table saws, I have to say that I would not trade my oliver and martins for anything else. Even if they lack the fancy left tilt feature, its a feature I have never needed in all these years. So I have to wonder if its such a big deal after all. You saw stop guys, help me out here. Is it not true that the saw stop is also a right tilt saw? One would think that if safety was such a hot button with the saw stop designers, that they would have built in the left tilt feature. After all, this feature is free unlike the extra hardware needed to drive the saw stop concept.:rolleyes:

Just my 5 cents worth over the last 20 odd years....

[Steve Rowe]

Dev - Are you the curator of a woodworking machinery museum? I really like your posts - detailed with a lot of historical perspective.

Left, right ... potatoe, potato - I really don't believe it makes a difference if the machine is set up properly and is used properly. I have always used a right tilt saw but the choice to do so was never scientific, it is just what I happened to buy. From time to time, I moved the rip fence to the left of the blade and never noticed any difference. After a few times, never moved to the left again.

Steve

[Frank Pellow]

I coducted a Saw Mill Creek poll on this subject a few months ago. See the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15356

At the time of the poll, I thought I was going to purchase a right tilt saw. But, I ended up with left tilt saw. The reason for this had nothing to do with familiarity or safety -it was becuase of the location of the dust port.

[Frank Pellow]

Dev - Are you the curator of a woodworking machinery museum? I really like you posts - detailed with a lot of historical perspective.

Left, right ... potatoe, potato - I really don't believe it makes a difference if the machine is set up properly and is used properly. I have always used a right tilt saw but the choice to do so was never scientific, it is just what I happened to buy. From time to time, I moved the rip fence to the left of the blade and never noticed any difference. After a few times, never moved to the left again.

Steve
Dev, I would like to add my voice to Steve's and say that I very much enjoy your posts that give us an historical perspective on our tools.

[Norman Hitt]

Just one other tidbit for History. I keep seeing posts saying that ALL saws were Right tilt except for powermatic until the last few years, but this isn't exactly true. I bought my Dad a Craftsman 10" Contractors saw for x-mas in the early 50's, (which I still have today, along with my Powermatic, :D ), and that old Craftsman is a LEFT TILT.

[Dev Emch]

Thanks. Nope, I am not one of those curator animals... although sometimes I wonder. I still use a drill press made in the late 1890s and I am restoring a planer from 1904. But my shaper is a 2003 or 2004 hoffman from germany. And the new martin is 2005 or 2006. I like the items that work and the history that goes with them. Some tools have changed over the years while others have changed little. And its a total gas to be able to mix some old tools with some new tools. But more importantly, I have found myself misled my many modern marketing types and I think many of you have also been misled. Some of the old machines were done so well that they can run circles around newer machines today. They have cut wood through all the world wars and are still working today. My wysong 284 has a navy stamp on it and we believe it was at Perl during Dec 7th in one of the land based shops. Then it came mainland and spent its life in two trade schools and finally got sold off at auction to a buddy who used it a while and now I have it. My two kindt collins sanders came from a pattern shop older than they are. They were used to make patterns for CASE tractor and for GM engine. Just think, these sanders may have contributed to the bowtie performance history of the corvette or maybe even the GTO judge among others. Who really are the ghosts in my machines? What stories they could tell if they could speak...

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I've had access to a RT Unisaw and a LT PM66 for almost 40 years. When it came time to buy one for home use, I went left tilt. I felt more comfortable and confident using LT. Others, I'm sure, would have gone right tilt. It's pretty much personal preference. If you are a true newbie with no experience on either, I feel the left tilt is safer to use.

[Andy Hoyt]

Gents - Thanks much to all of you for your observations.

Frank - Thanks for the pointer to the old thread. Very helpful. Need to learn to search for old stuff before I post.

To follow up. There have always been two things about my right tilter that I didn't like. First (given what I do) it's always been a pain to bevel rip stock because I don't like the pinching effect and also because this dadburnit Unifence is in the way. So I either flip the thing to lay low or move fence to other side of blade and then move fence to other side of itself.

So, after reading your comments I've discovered that it's not so much as the left or right tilt that bugs me so much as it is the fence system I've got. When the saw goes, so too will the Unifence.

So rather than ask the question about what fence you guys like, I'll go search old threads and see what you used to like.

Thanks a bunch. Andy

[Dev Emch]

Hey Andy..

Ya, that fence you have is strange. That is about the only description that comes to mind.

Also bear in mind that if your getting noticible binding on a bevel cut for example, it may be caused by the fence being left by a few thousandths. Something worth checking out.

As for fence systems. I think in general, the fence wars are over. In the cabinet saw market, the Beismeyer fence has won out and with the patent expired, everyone is making a decent clone of it. I do like the HTC version however because it has a micrometer adjust feature which most Beismeyer clones dont have including the orig. Beismeyer.

The fence on my oliver 88 is a standard oliver model E patternmaker fence. Its also got micrometer adjust and as a model E, the fence does not tilt over for bevel cuts as does the model F. These are heavy, awkward to move but very accurate fences.

The fence on my martin T-17 is O.K. It to is a micrometer adjust but its a bit more like the unifence but actually done correctly. As its also cast iron, and rides a locking machined inner groove on the edge of the table, removing it is not fun. But that is O.K. There is a small sub extension about 10 inches long that attaches to the right extension table. This sub extension is very small and not useful for sawing. But it does hinge over. So when I need to cut a sheet of ply and dont want the fence in the way, I move the fence over to the sub extension and lock the fence. Then I hinge it over and the whole fence drops out of the way and hangs there until done. Then you flip up the fence, lock the extension, unlock the fence and slide it back into position.

But when it comes to conventional cabinet saws, I think you will find the Beismeyer and its clones such as the HTC hard to beat.

Good Luck..

[Bill Antonacchio]

Hi Dev,

Had no idea what a Wysong 284 was so had to go find something on it. found this pic that looks like a scan of an old brochure. Thought you might like to see it.

I also really like your descriptions of the old and venerable. Keep them coming please, and if you ever would show some more of your shop that would be great too!

Regards,
Bill

Looking at the post I realize it is not the topic of discussion. Just thought a few might not know what the reference was about.

Sorry for the hijack.

[Andy Hoyt]

Sorry for the hijack.

No apologies needed. I didn't know what the machine was either.

And what a neat ad. Not one single reference to the manufacturer's name.

The product speaks for itself.

Try that in an ad today!

[Jim Becker]

I personally long for the UniFence I used to have... :) I loved that fence. The good news is that the slider I will eventually end up with has a similar setup. I only mention this because it just illustrates that each of us works differently and has different needs and expectations. The UniFence isn't a bad fence, it's just different than the Biesemeyer and similar fences out there. Equip your saw with the accessories that best suit you! (And for the record...I'm a left tilt fan for an "American" style saw. The slider will necessarily be right tilt 'cause that makes sense for that setup...)

[Michael Ballent]

.... You saw stop guys, help me out here. Is it not true that the saw stop is also a right tilt saw? One would think that if safety was such a hot button with the saw stop designers, that they would have built in the left tilt feature. After all, this feature is free unlike the extra hardware needed to drive the saw stop concept.:rolleyes:

Just my 5 cents worth over the last 20 odd years....

Dev, the SawStop actually tilts to the left and the motor swings to the right. That is why you see the motor cover hiding on the right side of the SS. It's nice to know that I can add something to the left side of the saw, due to the space available, and maintain the left tilt. :D Also of note the blade height does not move the blade up via an arc it moves straight up and down, its a little thing bit I have found it to be handy. :cool:

[Roy Wall]

Dev, the SawStop actually tilts to the left and the motor swings to the right. That is why you see the motor cover hiding on the right side of the SS. It's nice to know that I can add something to the left side of the saw, due to the space available, and maintain the left tilt. :D Also of note the blade height does not move the blade up via an arc it moves straight up and down, its a little thing bit I have found it to be handy. :cool:

Exactly! Sawstop engineered the "Vertical" system to maintain a set distance from the brake pawl no matter what the height of the blade or tilt. The Brake pawl is placed about and 1/8" from the blade and this whole mechanism moves as a unit in unison with the blade movements

[Chris Padilla]

Kudos to SawStop again! They just about thought it all out...now if my right-tilt 1023Z would just die...nope...didn't think so.... :o

But, back on topic, I have a right-tilt for two reasons: it was what Grizzly had at the time that I could afford (5 years ago) and I grew up on a right-tilt....

However, were I to buy a new TS, lefty vs. righty wouldn't be much of a consideration....

[Ted Shrader]

Andy -

This has been discussed many, many times on the various forums. It comes down to personal preferences. One could make saftey arguments about tilting the blade toward the fence - but the fence can be shifted to the other side of the blade for all but the widest rips.

Have used both (and even a tilting table). I prefer a left tilt blade, it is what I am used to.

Regards,
Ted

[Dennis Peacock]

I have both Left Tilt and Right Tilt. Which one do I use the most? The Left Tilt. Love it, Like it, and I keep using it. :D

[Dev Emch]

Thanks for bringing that to our attention. In looking at the sawstop, it appeared to be a right tilt machine. So they did incorporate the left tilt feature. The fact that it moves stright up and down makes sense as you cannot move the blade out of the way that quickly on a trunion based curved system. So this thread sends me away having learned something more about the saw stop. This is a good thing.

The wysong 284 is considered by many to be the finest hollow chisel mortiser ever made. With caveats, I would agree with that. Stickly furniture uses the wysong 284 and maka 161 as its mortise solution. Wysong made several versions of the 284 and mine is the oldest predating Dec 7th, 1941. So mine lacks the front T slot, the gear driven rear fence and the adjustable stroke cam of more modern machines. The table has the meat to support a T slot and will eventually machine one in to upgrade it.

But wysong sold the 284 to Central Machinery Company in North Carolina years ago. This company is a single, edlery man who does not dink with computers much and rebuilds and reconditions older wysong 284s. He can also build a new one if you wish. But these are based on the latest set of patterns which go back to about 1960 to 1965. A new 284 will cost you about $14,700 and take upwards of 6 months to year to get. But considering that many are going up for auction and that its almost impossible to wear one of these out, most 284 buyers are just rebuilding older ones to like new condition.

[Michael Pfau]

Andy I own a left tilt Delta unisaw, and would not trade it for the world. Love it

[Alan Turner]

Dev - A friend, and my used equip. dealer, is a large seller of used HCM's, and he says the Wysong is the best ever made. He has several in stock, but I have not bothered to price them. One of my shop partners, who is not a furniture maker, has parked his PM 10 in my new teaching studio, the trade off being that I can use it. Now I just need to bulk up a bit as it is operated only by a foot pedal. Big and heavy, but not in the Wysong class.

[Dev Emch]

The wysongs can be rather expensive when you find the newer ones in the dealers gasp. Odie white has one which he has been trying to sell for some time. Actually a very long time. www.odiewhitemachinery.com

Mine is the oldest one I have come across. It even has the large 3 inch cast lettering on the side. I will upgrade portions of it when I rebuild it. That is not now. But there are only three upgrades that mine is missing. 1). The front T slot on the main table. 2). The gear driven fence lifting system. 3). The variable stroke length adjustment. As I also do machinist work, I will upgrade this machine by 1). Cutting the T slot into the front table edge. The casting actually had the extra meat for this... they just didnt get around to it. 2). Cloning the oliver fence lift system and installing it on the back. 3). Cloning the variable stroke parts to give me variable stroke adjustment.

Using this machine is like using a 1300 pound sewing machine. The pedal is a bit like mashing a cast iron gas pedel and then the head begins to go up and down just like a sewing machine. The head is 5 hp direct drive and the sewing machine mechanism is driven by about a 1 or 2 hp motor.

Oh ya, mine also does not have a jacobs chuck. The plan is to mount the motor rotor in my metal lathe and cut off the current socket mount and then machine a jacobs taper onto the end of the shaft. This then allows me to install a ball bearing, 1/2 inch jacobs chuck. Not really a big deal.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

My experience is the exact same as Von's....left tilt all my life until the right tilter came. I never liked it when it came to bevel cuts. I'm stickin' with left now that the Grizzly has been sold.

[Frankie Hunt]

It seems that most of the posters on this thread who have used/use both types prefer left tilt. You can put me in that camp also.

I started out on my dad's right tilt saw. ( I was mostly on the receiving side, not the feeding side of the saw back then) My first saw was an old left tilt Craftsman contractors saw. I upgraded to a right tilt Delta contractors saw because of the fence and some other issues. I immediatly missed my left tilt saw, however I got used to it. My last upgrade was to a Left tilt Unisaw. I kept my old saw this time, so now I have both. I am soooooo glad to be back to a left tilt saw! I MUCH prefer left tilt!

I think fences are a personal preferance too. I am extremly happy to have the Unifence. From the sounds of it I don't think that the Unifence is your problem, I think it is your frustation with the right tilt. I had the same frustation when I had to use right tilt.

Frankie