Truing green bowl blanks

[Prashun Patel]

I sometimes chainsaw, and sometimes bandsaw my green bowl blanks into discs. I find truing the blanks tedious and slow. I use a v-shaped bowl gouge. As I come up the top 1/3 of the outside, I am rotating the tool so the nose is almost coming in straight (perpendicular) to the blank. This creates a dusty, and inefficient cut.

I decided for the first time to try a few, careful cuts with my spindle roughing gouge. This took nice slices off the corners. It gets a little grabby as the blank is bought into round and the cut goes the full perimeter of the disc. I can tell this would be a dangerous thing to use. But the cuts are remarkably less dusty than from my bowl gouges.

What do you guys use to bring your green blanks into round quickly?

[Roger Chandler]

Prashun, I find that when going around the outside of the bowl from the bottom tenon/recess, and up the curve to the rim that I have to change the gouge orientation. On some bowls, I have changed the angle of attack. Now, I use a push cut whenever possible working from the tenon area up to the rim, but when I get away from the tenon area, and begin to go up the curve, I lower the handle and start taking some cuts with the side wing with the bevel floating, almost a shear type cut, but it takes away shavings that stream, instead of dust such as one would get on end grain. That cut does not work for natural edge, bark laden wood until you get to the rim at least once with another angle and push cut.

The surface off the tool is also much better.......way fewer tool marks doing that transition by lowering the handle and cutting with a part of the side wing. I find it difficult to try to use that same cut with a pulling motion.........for some reason it seems to grab and catch, so at least for me that technique is reserved for push cuts going up to the rim.

Inside, I basically use the step cuts, begining at the rim going deeper, then wider from center to rim, and trying not to go back to the rim, because of the flexing with centrifugal force.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Roger. Inside isn't an issue for me (too rough finishing cuts notwithstanding). It's the outside roughing cuts. The problem with the green wood is that when taking cuts with the side wing, it gets grabby. I wish I could see a picture of how you do it.

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks, Roger. Inside isn't an issue for me (too rough finishing cuts notwithstanding). It's the outside roughing cuts. The problem with the green wood is that when taking cuts with the side wing, it gets grabby. I wish I could see a picture of how you do it.

I don't have any pics, but on that transition, I lower the handle, and cut with the side of the wing near the nose, not the whole wing. It takes a bit, probably, because it may not feel familiar or natural with the previous way you learned. Once you find that sweet spot, then you will be surprised at the streaming shavings and the finish off the tool....especially, as it is still at roughing out stage. Sometimes I use that cut to refine the curve up to the rim as well.

Give it a try, and be careful and deliberate. If you need to stop in the transition and lower the handle and place the bevel on the wood in a deliberate fashion, then that is fine.......once you find that sweet spot, I think you will enjoy what happens. Sort of sneak up on it, as they say, and find what works for you. :)

[Mark Greenbaum]

Always try to ride the bevel, even when trying to true a bowl blank. If you get too near the wing, it will grab and you will have an exciting adventure, or worse. I know you're a very experienced turner, from the wisdom you've imparted on your posts, so this is not news to you. I am, in comparison, still a novice, and the ride the bevel motto rings in my brain every time I have a gouge to the wood. I did not understand the slogan so much, until I turned for 8-10 hours a day for a week at J C Campbell Folk School. There I learned its meaning through diligent practice. But I still have to be cautious and careful to adhere to the motto now that I have my own lathe and only turn infrequently.

[Don Frank]

I have been using a homemade tool lately for bringing the bowl blanks to round. It's a 3/4" steel bar with a hole drilled in the end so that a 1/4" square cobalt cutter will slide in and a tapped set screw to hold it there. The cutter is ground at about 70 degrees. I can get a bowl trued up to round fairly quick without feeling like I've been in a boxing match. Once rounded I go back to a bowl gouge because I'm no longer cutting air. Because the cutter is essentially a 1/4" wide scraper on a heavy duty shaft it doesn't grab or catch.

[Reed Gray]

For the SRG, they are fine as long as you have the flutes at 9 o'clock, so rolled all the way over on the side. NEVER have the flutes straight up like you do when roughing down a spindle. Me, of course, I use a scraper. I start at the center and work my way out to the edge. Make a level spot first. Then, if the slab is not very true/has a lot of run out, I make sure to pivot with the cut rather than sweep all the way across. This gives me a flat surface to start from, and then pivoting into the wood/air makes it easier to 'feel' the uneven parts rather than getting 'surprised' by very uneven surfaces. Big Ugly tool most of the time, or standard scrapers. You can use a gouge laying on its side, but a scraper is made for that job.

For getting the cuts straight, well, you can't beat a big bandsaw or the chainsaw chopsaw. Other than that, with the hand held chainsaw, I mark out plumb lines on the front, and then mark the same distances on the back side. I mark widths with plywood strips cut on the table saw, in 1/2 inch increments from 1 to 8 inches. Start the cut on the front side, line up the cut with the plumb line and the mark on the back side, then try to follow the plumb line. That gets the cuts fairly straight and parallel.

robo hippy

[robert baccus]

All good advice above. I'm a woose. Bought a good electric hand planer to take off the corners, on the lathe--locked of course. You do not have to take the whole corner off--just bevel the "upstream" corner to allow the gouge to cut a sloping surface. Also try grinding that spindle roughing gouge like a bottom feeder for removing wood and finish cuts on the outside. Your piece needs to be somewhat round to do this.

[Jamie Straw]

I don't know if this video (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNv2UZA8fY-R1lr0qZfguUHqp82lzLwEp) would be helpful (you're so much more advanced than I am), but this pivoting technique really helped me. I have a friend who uses the spindle gouge to start rough blanks, scares the cr#p out of me. One thing I do differently from the video is switch hands when need be so I'm not standing in the line of fire (thank you, Reed).

[Ricc Havens]

I don't know if this video (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNv2UZA8fY-R1lr0qZfguUHqp82lzLwEp) would be helpful (you're so much more advanced than I am), but this pivoting technique really helped me. I have a friend who uses the spindle gouge to start rough blanks, scares the cr#p out of me. One thing I do differently from the video is switch hands when need be so I'm not standing in the line of fire (thank you, Reed).

James, the video link comes up as private and won't play


Ricc

[Pat Scott]

Try and watch one of Glenn Lucas's bowl turning videos. Your club might have one in their library that you can check out, maybe another member has one you can borrow, or try watching some clips on his website and You Tube.

Roughing the outside of a green bowl blank shouldn't be slow, you should be able to get big, long shavings which usually result in a big smile! A V-gouge has a small tip, a parabolic flute gouge has a more relaxed tip, and a spindle roughing gouge is really relaxed! I would recommend you stop using a SRG for roughing a bowl. You said with a SRG you got nice slices which to me implies the reason is because of the open or relaxed nose. With a V-gouge you have such a small "sweet" spot that it's easy to get off the sweet spot so it doesn't cut. If you're getting dusty sawdust type cuts, either the gouge is dull or the flute is closed and is scraping instead of cutting. With a parabolic flute the sweet spot is bigger and it's easier to stay in the cut.

If I understand you correctly, with your V-gouge nose almost perpendicular to the surface of the bowl then the bevel is not rubbing and you're scraping with the tip. When I rough turn I turn left handed. Basically I'm standing behind the gouge and pushing it forward, and the shavings are going to the left. Standing this way you can swing the tool handle towards you so the bevel is rubbing, drop the handle to 45 degrees, rotate the tool so the flute is in about the 10:00 position. I think Bill Grumbine advocates 45/45/45 (45 degree tool bevel angle, handle dropped straight down (perpendicular) from the tool rest to 45 degrees, now swing the tool handle towards you 45 degrees. Don't forget to rotate the flute to 10:00.

What bevel angle do you have on your V-gouge? SRG's are usually 45 degrees, a bowl gouge between 40-60 degrees should work fine.

[Michael Mills]

I do similar to what Lyle does here as far as tool presentation. I do start with the tool rest at 45* rather than parallel because I feel better out of the line of fire. I believe it was Bill Grumbine who showed starting with the rest perpendicular and flattening an area starting at the tailstock first.
Your first cut may only be 1/4 deep and 1/2 long but it goes pretty quickly taking 1/8" at a time.
By working at a 45* you are starting to shape the base and side at the same time.

I only knock off the corners with a chainsaw. It takes me longer to setup and clean the band saw doing one bowl at a time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X06EjQhDROk

[Roger Chandler]

Prashun, Lyle's video posted above shows what I was speaking to.....I usually drop the handle a little more than he shows, and can get a little wider shaving, but the basics are there, and if you will do a similar thing, you will find that sweet spot I was referring to. That first series to make the chainsaw sides round he does the way I do it.....it is when I am forming that curve up to the rim, and basically setting the shape of the project that I lower the handle and transition to the slicing angle [shear cut, not scrape] and it gives a superior surface off the tool compared to other cuts, and greatly reduces tool marks, as floating the bevel leaves no bruising of the wood fibers.

[Prashun Patel]

I notice Lyle is rolling the flute almost vertically. I will see if that makes my cuts smoother as they appear to be doing to him.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Prashun the way I do this is a little different, as I turn these pieces outboard,and I use the conventional shape on my gouge that I shape just a bit different than square across, (wings backed off a bit).

I most often would use half logs to rough turn, as a slab is easily sawn round and there should not be any issue to shape those as you like.

The large halflog blanks I will knock the corners off with the chainsaw, smaller ones I often turn from square,as turning that round doesn’t take longer than getting the chainsaw out and cutting and then putting the saw away again.

Just a couple of pictures that I have made some years ago, just to show the manner I go at it, maybe some help to rough your blanks out in a better fashion, as dust from a wet/fresh log should never happen IMO.

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[robert baccus]

Roger that Leo. Start at the bowl bottom and work outward and avoid cutting the flats from the front side. Or cheat and buy a handplaner for green wood.

[Prashun Patel]

I made some improvements thanks to you guys...

Previously I would attack the outside as in "bottom.jpg". This position still gives the smoothest, most efficient cuts on the bottom. The flute is up, and the presentation is just right or left of the nose - depending on whether I'm pushing or pulling through the cut from the base to the rim. But this has resulted in dusty cuts near the rim.

When I roll the flute towards me 90 degrees, I get much better cuts towards the rim (as the wall of the bowl goes vertical). Dropping the handle does indeed make the cutting wider and easier. It feels less likely to catch too. The cuts felt good both during roughing and smoothing. There is some dust still in the middle of the ascent (FLute Rolled.jpg). But at the top of the rim, it's almost all lovely angel hair (Flute Rolled 2.jpg).

In "Flute Up.jpg" (it should be named Rolled Reversed) I tilt the flute away from me and push down from the rim to the base. That gave me similar results as rolling towards me.

So, for me - at least with this one piece of cherry - I have improved results by starting with the flute up at the bottom, and then rolling and dropping the handle as I ascend. But, you can see in the last pic that I still get some dust. And this is on a green wood blank. Is this how it looks for you guys?

[Reed Gray]

I think Lyle's flutes are at about 45 degrees. If they are straight up, then you are using it like scraper.

robo hippy

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I made some improvements thanks to you guys...

Previously I would attack the outside as in "bottom.jpg". This position still gives the smoothest, most efficient cuts on the bottom. The flute is up, and the presentation is just right or left of the nose - depending on whether I'm pushing or pulling through the cut from the base to the rim. But this has resulted in dusty cuts near the rim.

When I roll the flute towards me 90 degrees, I get much better cuts towards the rim (as the wall of the bowl goes vertical). Dropping the handle does indeed make the cutting wider and easier. It feels less likely to catch too. The cuts felt good both during roughing and smoothing. There is some dust still in the middle of the ascent (FLute Rolled.jpg). But at the top of the rim, it's almost all lovely angel hair (Flute Rolled 2.jpg).

In "Flute Up.jpg" (it should be named Rolled Reversed) I tilt the flute away from me and push down from the rim to the base. That gave me similar results as rolling towards me.

So, for me - at least with this one piece of cherry - I have improved results by starting with the flute up at the bottom, and then rolling and dropping the handle as I ascend. But, you can see in the last pic that I still get some dust. And this is on a green wood blank. Is this how it looks for you guys?


Prashun I don’t get the kind of shavings you get, of course I do use a different gouge than you, and use it so it cuts/slices, not in a scraping manner, just look at the shavings I get while turning and also the shavings I get from dry wood returning, the one picture of Dry Apple shavings I collected from under the Delta 46-460 lathe stand, it is for a friends fish smoker, the other is from several dry turning with the last of a Dry Maple bowl on top.

If you have that blank screwed onto a faceplate, maybe having the tailstock off the lathe would give you better access and a better angle for your gouge.

The first 3 pictures are with wet wood turning shavings.
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The next 3 photo’s are from returned bone dry Apple and other bone dry returned bowls, with the last/smallest shavings swept and scooped from the floor on top.
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[Pat Scott]

Prashun, picture 1 looks pretty good, although I think you have the flute up a little too much. It looks to be in about the 11:00 position which will work, but on a rough surface it can be grabby. 10:00 is safer and still removes a lot of wood. If 10:00 doesn't remove enough wood for you, drop the handle a little more which will result in using a bit more of the wing instead of just the tip. Also look at this picture to see where the handle is - the handle should stay in this orientation from base to rim, with the tip leading the way (not following the handle like in pic 2 and 3).

Picture 2 and 3 are pull cuts. If the bevel is rubbing we could get away with calling it a shear cut. But holding the gouge like you are in #2 and #3 is usually not very efficient on green bowls and most times does result in small shavings or dust. On a dry bowl a shear cut is OK for removing small bumps or torn grain, or smoothing out a curve. In pic 2 & 3 you have the handle close to you with the tip farther away. If the handle were farther away from you like in pic #1, then you'd be doing a push cut as you make your way up the bowl. It's possible to get shavings doing a pull cut, but as you've experienced you can also get dust.

Pic 4 - You are cutting downhill in this picture which usually results in torn grain. Sure it's just a rough out and who cares if you have torn grain, right? I think you should practice good technique on every bowl whether green or dry. Jimmy Clewes says it's OK to cut downhill on a green bowl if it helps you shape the profile, but he makes it a point to say only green bowls. You are also scraping in this picture because of the handle position. If you must cut downhill, pull the handle closer to your body so the nose is leading instead of the handle leading. If it were me I would grind part of the heel away also (half of your bevel is fine).

Pic 4 shows two piles: the left pile is dust and the right pile is small shavings. The only time I get dust like you show is when I try and scrape a green bowl. The only time I get small shavings like the right pile is when I cut with the very tip of the gouge like your pic #1,2,3 show. Otherwise on a green bowl I expect to get nice big shavings like Leo shows. To get shavings like that drop the handle down to 45 degrees which cuts with the wing.

[Prashun Patel]

Leo-

On the inside of the bowl, my shavings are indeed as yours are. In fact, when I'm attacking from the bottom, with the gouge parallel to the axis of rotation, then indeed, I get whispy shavings.

Pat and Leo-

My problem is that it is hard to maintain that orientation (parallel to the axis of rotation) up the vertical wall of the bowl. On the lower 2/3, it's possible, but when/if the wall transitions to true vertical, too much of the gouge wing is engaged on the roughing cut on the vertical wall. THAT was/is my problem. Dropping and rolling has allowed me to do this a little less painfully, but still does not give the big, efficient shavings that I get at the foot of the bowl.

[Reed Gray]

I would have to see this in action, and am still trying to figure it out. Picture one is pretty much a scrape, and it looks like you are rubbing the bevel. Scrape to me is cutting edge 90 degrees to the rotation. Problem with that cut is that if you come off the bevel even a tiny bit, you have a scraper pointing up into the spin. SLAM!

Pictures 2 and 3 are pull cuts, handle low, cutting mostly with the wings. Actually little mechanical difference between dropped handle pull or push cut. Some say that with the pull, the handle leads the cut, and with the push, the nose leads the cut. You can do either cut from push side or pull side. No difference to me. Start by rubbing the bevel, roll the flutes towards the wood till they cut, then go forward. It can be used for heavy roughing, or fine shavings like you have there, and it makes an excellent clean up cut. Roll them over some more, and you get a shear scrape, which isn't a scrape because of the high shear angle, but isn't a bevel rubbing cut either.

Picture 4 is a push cut going against the grain. I don't use it at all because it results in more torn grain. I turn green to final thickness, and get the cleanest cuts by going with the grain. The only cuts I will use uphill and downhill are shear scrapes.

The dust, most of the time for me means the tool needs sharpening. Some times, wood that is half dry will do that a bit more than sloppy wet or very dry, but some times it is the wood. Scraping cuts make more dust, and some times people will have their gouge held flat/level with wings rolled all the way over, and call that a shear scrape. Since there is no shear angle, then I don't agree. It is a scrape.

I hold my tools level, and prefer a more open flute since I am shear cutting with the nose, and if it is a heavy cut, the wing is pretty much scraping due to the curve of the blade. Easier and more simple than swinging the handle through a series of arcs.

In the progression of finish turning a bowl, you have that one to the point where I would be shear scraping only. No large tool marks, smooth even surface, so only clean up/shear scraping is needed.

robo hippy

[Reed Gray]

Just out in the shop turning some bowls, and I figured out the 'dust' thing, my bad.... It is end grain pieces. When taking off heavy shavings, there is enough wood to hold the shaving together through side and end grain till the shaving, on the way to the floor has folded several times, and it always breaks on the end grain. When practicing your 'dainty' skills, the shavings are so fine that the end grain crumbles into dust.... Now it all makes sense...

robo hippy