VOTE! Need opinions on taking advantage of this Elm crotch for bowl blanks...

[Chris Gunsolley]

Greetings!

To provide you some context, I am a bowl turner whom is preparing to begin selling my bowls, and to turn this endeavor into a full-fledged business that I can make a living on. I have all of the equipment needed to turn bowls as large as I desire, including a Powermatic 3520b lathe, Oneway 8" cast iron faceplate, Stronghold chuck with every jaw set available, Oneway Easy Core system with every knife set available, foldable engine hoist with a load leveler, chainsaws, etc... so let's just assume there are no issues with tools/equipment. As I launch into my career as a bowl turner, I will primarily sell practical utility bowls, and I want some statement pieces, including some very large bowls, simply for a "wow" factor. Considering this and moving forward...

I've recently acquired a large load of beautiful wood from a fallen elm tree, amongst those pieces a large crotch section. I am currently considering how I should fully take advantage of this section. Ultimately, I will follow my heart/gut instinct to make my decision, but I am interested in your perspectives on the matter. I have cut the pith out of this crotch section, and am placing my discs on it in order to determine how I'd like to create my blanks from it. I am considering two different options, one that would provide a massive 28" diameter bowl, with a few nested bowls coming from within it, and another that would provide 3 relatively large bowls that are more practical, with perhaps some nested bowls extracted from those blanks as well.

My desire for large statement pieces, combined with the fact that you will only have so many opportunities to turn such a massive crotch bowl makes me lean toward the first option, which is to obtain a head-turning, eye-popping 28" bowl from the crotch section as follows:

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Don't mind the fact that this perspective makes the disc look like it's over the edge of the log; that's because the cardboard is bent, but it does fit on there flat. The advantage of this option is that I get my massive statement piece, and I will also yield some nested bowls from within the blank of the larger bowl, using the Oneway Easy Core System. It should also be considered that I see a good amount of chatoyance where these branches meet, and placing a bowl in there like this should fully exploit that feature which would be great for a statement piece (not to mention the interesting grain patterns that you typically find in a crotch section). The disadvantage is that a 28" bowl isn't very practical, and because of that perhaps it would merely be a conversation piece. If I want to be more practical, and still produce some decent-sized bowls from this section, I could go with the second option that I am seriously considering, which is to cut three blanks from this, measuring 19.5", 17", and 12" in diameter, as follows:

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What I like about this is that these are still very large bowls, but are actually practical sizes. I'd still exploit the chatoyance and interesting grain patterns, and I should be able to extract nested bowls from each of these. The downside is that I may not end up with something that would have the shock factor of the enormous 28" bowl that the other option offers, and if I go with this option I would lose that opportunity. (I also realize that I may be underestimating the power of a 19" bowl, which is relatively huge in its own right. So perhaps I would still get my shock factor?)

So, I'm just curious, Which of these two options do you think I should choose, and why?

Considering that I'm about to launch my career and would like some large statement pieces, should I take advantage of this opportunity to turn 28" bowls?

Why or why not?

(I do have two different halves, so one option is to cut one half one way, and the other half the other way. Or, I could get two 28" bowls :))

[Bob Bouis]

A lot of that figure won't go all the way down, so you might end up coring or turning away a lot of it and having figure on a few parts of the rim only.

[Prashun Patel]

1 . Turned inside out

[Chris Gunsolley]

1 . Turned inside out

Thank you for your suggestion, Prashun. Excuse me if I should know this, but what exactly do you mean by "inside out?" So, in the picture, the bark is down, and the side that is up, facing the camera and with the disc on it is the side that was closest to the pith. By your suggestion, would this side become the top of the bowl, as we would normally orient the bowl? I'm assuming this is what you mean, as from the perspective of the picture, this would put the inside of the bowl facing out, toward the camera...

Or, by inside out, are you suggesting to have the side with the bark on it become the top of the bowl, as opposed to the side closest to the pith?

[Chris Gunsolley]

A lot of that figure won't go all the way down, so you might end up coring or turning away a lot of it and having figure on a few parts of the rim only.

Considering this, how would you go about attempting to include as much of the figure as possible in your bowl(s)?

[Aaron Craven]

I'm far from a professional (and pretty wet-behind-the-ears for a newbie at that), but I would think if your primary focus is building a business, you need to consider ROI. The price you'd probably need to put on a 28" bowl is going to be prohibitive for most buyers, so you're talking about creating a (very impressive) billboard for yourself. You'll need to make sure it gets seen and it will need to pay for itself by driving other sales. There's a certain amount of risk here as well.. if your work were to suffer a catastrophic failure while you're making it, losing a third of the material is a lot easier to swallow than losing all of it. In short, from a purely business-oriented perspective, I think I'd go for the smaller bowls. Easier, less risk, likely better monetary return (unless you manage to sell the monster), and probably more efficient use of the wood (though I'm not sure about that if you're coring).

That said, I'll never be a production wood turner (and don't want to). So a business-oriented decision wouldn't be my main interest. I'd probably go with the smaller still, but that's because I don't feel I have the experience to turn something as large as you're suggesting safely. But if I did have the experience... and the tools... and the wood... it'd be REALLY tempting. :D

[Chris Gunsolley]

I'm far from a professional (and pretty wet-behind-the-ears for a newbie at that), but I would think if your primary focus is building a business, you need to consider ROI. The price you'd probably need to put on a 28" bowl is going to be prohibitive for most buyers, so you're talking about creating a (very impressive) billboard for yourself. You'll need to make sure it gets seen and it will need to pay for itself by driving other sales. There's a certain amount of risk here as well.. if your work were to suffer a catastrophic failure while you're making it, losing a third of the material is a lot easier to swallow than losing all of it. In short, from a purely business-oriented perspective, I think I'd go for the smaller bowls. Easier, less risk, likely better monetary return (unless you manage to sell the monster), and probably more efficient use of the wood (though I'm not sure about that if you're coring).

That said, I'll never be a production wood turner (and don't want to). So a business-oriented decision wouldn't be my main interest. I'd probably go with the smaller still, but that's because I don't feel I have the experience to turn something as large as you're suggesting safely. But if I did have the experience... and the tools... and the wood... it'd be REALLY tempting. :D

Aaron, your ideas on this are very sound, and all of the concerns you mentioned encapsulate the heart of the dilemma altogether. I suppose what puts me on the fence, from a business-oriented standpoint, is that I think a very large and impressive billboard is worth an awful lot. Even if you don't sell it...

[daryl moses]

For crotch bowls it has been my experience that you will get more figure [feather] if the bark side becomes the top of the bowl..............

[Chris Gunsolley]

For crotch bowls it has been my experience that you will get more figure [feather] if the bark side becomes the top of the bowl..............

That's what I'm thinking Bob was getting at, and I now suspect Prashun was suggesting this by suggesting that I turn the 28" bowl "inside out." (He probably meant the inside of the bowl points toward the outside of the tree.) This also makes sense, considering what Bob said, as the feather would be deeper into the wood, and turning it with the top toward the bark would put more surface area--the round portion--of the bowl into where the feathering is.

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

my opinion as a hack that likes to turn bowls, and cuts up a lot of logs for other people...

you'll get your best bowl blank centered on the crotch - whatever size you choose.

you can certainly get blanks per your other layout, but they will not have grain patterns that are pleasing to the eye.

[Dave Fritz]

Good post. At the current time my plan on some cherry crotch pieces is to cut in half leaving the pith in one side. That side becomes the bottom and gets a tenon All of the pith will be removed while shaping the bottom of the bowl. The balance will be cut away when the bowl is vacuum chucked and the tenon removed.

I've turned away most of the figure too many times. There really isn't much and there is very narrow window of max. feather. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Business wise, a piece like that would be a show stopper and draw attention to your work. You sell the sizzle, not the steak. Just my 2 cents

[david privett]

I have turned American elm it can be fairly interesting in the crotches ,I think you have two halves turn one biggin and the smaller bowls on the other half. If it is kinda dry you will find it kinda hard. Keep them tools sharp. Have fun.

[robert baccus]

You sound well aware of all the aspects of this piece. One question--how many of this size have you turned. It is unbelievable how much a 28" bowl can warp--especially with fancy grain involved. Not to mention cracks ect. A 28" bowl can become a 26"X 23" "thing" sudden like. My vote.

[Prashun Patel]

Bark on the rim. You may want to turn it live edge too.

[Pat Scott]

I consider myself a semi-production bowl turner. I don't need to rely on selling bowls as my sole income, but I did start my own business and turn and sell full time since retiring last year. I vote for the 3 smaller bowls.

You said it first: "I also realize that I may be underestimating the power of a 19" bowl, which is relatively huge in its own right. So perhaps I would still get my shock factor?". I do think you are underestimating how much of a statement an 18" to 20" bowl can be. While a 28" bowl will definitely have a wow factor to it, I'd be afraid that's all that it would end up being. If you want to do it just because you can, that's one thing and I say go for it. You can always do both options since you have both halves, or you could get 3-4 bowls from both halves!

But you also said that: "...I will primarily sell practical utility bowls...", and about the 2nd picture: "What I like about this is that these are still very large bowls, but are actually practical sizes." I think you have your answer - a 28" bowl is not practical. For that matter neither is a 19.5" bowl or 17" bowl. But after the 19.5" and 17" dry, you'd probably end up with a 18" and 15.5". The 18" can be your wow bowl, and the 15.5" can be a nice large practical bowl. Elm can warp quite a bit so you can easily loose an inch or more finish turning it.

Displaying such a large bowl to draw people to your booth will take up a LOT of table space. Don't forget you have to store and carry it from show to show. You want it to be seen to draw attention to your booth, but you don't want it on your table as it will take up half the table. So now you display it off to the side or at the back of your booth, but maybe that space would be better served by having other bowls that people are more likely to buy. I think having a bunch of well turned practical bowls in the 12" to 15" size has a nice wow factor, and that in itself will draw people in.

Also how deep of bowl would the 28" end up being? To get several cores from the middle requires depth. If the 28" bowl is only 6" deep, you might get one or two shallow bowls/platters. I would think a 28" bowl would have to be at least 10" or more deep to get anything decent from the core. Do you have a knife that will cut a 25" core that deep?

Then there's considerations of trying to dry a 28" bowl. If you use the 10% rule, you'd have to rough it out with almost 3" thick walls that will take 3-4 years to air dry. Good luck with cracking! Crotch pieces are notorious for cracking.

[Chris Gunsolley]

All things considered, in the first half, I'm going to attempt to get as large of a bowl as possible, but turned inside out with a satisfactory depth. In order to achieve that depth, I'll have to come down from the top of the "Y" just a few inches, which will require that I settle for smaller than a 28" bowl. It may end up being 24" or so, and I'm sure that prioritizing the exploitation of the figure over a couple extra inches is the right thing to do. Even as merely a statement piece, I think a 24" bowl with notable figure will be more impactful than a 28" bowl without notable figure. This blank will be placed centered on the crotch as you see in that first picture on my initial post, and as Shawn suggested.

For the second half, I will do something similar to the second option, but with 20", 14.5", and 10.5" bowls, and turn all of them inside out, in attempt to capture the figure and interesting grain patterns there. The layout of those on this half will be as follows:

339102

By bumping the large bowl on this option up to 20", I'll definitely end up with 'shock factor' bowls out of each half of the crotch. As you can see, with this I'll also end up with decent-sized remnants that I can probably produce some small bowls and/or platters out of as well. Another thing to note about this half is that I had to dodge the knot that you see just beyond the lower left edge of the 20" bowl in the picture. The wood is rather thick, being about 12" deep on the lower end here toward the 14.5" bowl, so I should be able to get some nested bowls out of these as well, using the coring system.

I think this 20" bowl is well-placed to exhibit the feathering:

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(In this picture, you may notice that there is one very shallow surface crack close to where the pith ran. Fortunately, it is located in a spot that will be turned away very early, in the process of truing up the bottom of the outer profile of the bowl, and it will probably be gone after I plane this surface prior to mounting it to the lathe anyways.)

I want you all to know that I've applied careful consideration to each and every one of your replies. Your input has helped to develop my perspective when envisioning the bowl within the log, I've learned a lot about how to take advantage of figure, and I've got a toolbox of considerations that I can take into account when locating blanks, which I wasn't fully considering before. I look forward to sharing our ideas again in similar threads in the future. Thank you.

[Wes Ramsey]

My opinion may not matter much, but I turn bowls primarily for my own enjoyment and have no shortage of free wood. I always center the crotch to get the biggest bowl I can turn (usually 12"). If I can get a smaller bowl out of the rest I do, if not I cut the rest into the biggest, squareish blanks I can for weed pots, hollow forms, etc. I have stacks and stacks of them in all kinds of woods. I will probably give away as many as I use, but that's part of the fun for me. Probably not the wisest suggestion for a production turner, but there ya go.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Looking at that blank, it suspiciously looks like Ash rather than Elm.

If you turn bowls with only part of the crotch in in it, off center so to speak you will get bowls that will warp unevenly, and for that more chances of stress and splitting.

I’ve turned large bowls from crotch as well as from regular parts of logs, and they didn’t warp more or split more than other bowls, actually they didn’t split.

Maybe you could slice a slab off and use that feather in it.
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Here are some of the larger bowls I turned, and they look good.
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