Grinder for CBN wheel for sharpening

[Frank Martin]

I am planning to get a bench grinder to use with a CBN wheel for sharpening. After hollow grinding, I plan to use Spyderco stones to hone without a guide.

Looking at past threads it appears the most desirable grinder is a half speed, 8" grinder. Although, looking at reviews for 8" grinders, the only one with consistently good reviews is the full speed Metabo. Of course, there is always Baldor, but 8" size is quite spendy.

My question is, would a 6" grinder also work for hollow grinding plane blades and chisels or 8" is really what I should get? If 6" works, half speed Baldor grinder is a lot more affordable than the 8" Baldor.

All of this is for hobby use.

[Patrick Chase]

I am planning to get a bench grinder to use with a CBN wheel for sharpening. After hollow grinding, I plan to use Spyderco stones to hone without a guide.

Looking at past threads it appears the most desirable grinder is a half speed, 8" grinder. Although, looking at reviews for 8" grinders, the only one with consistently good reviews is the full speed Metabo. Of course, there is always Baldor, but 8" size is quite spendy.

My question is, would a 6" grinder also work for hollow grinding plane blades and chisels or 8" is really what I should get? If 6" works, half speed Baldor grinder is a lot more affordable than the 8" Baldor.

All of this is for hobby use.

CBN wheels are inherently well-balanced, so some aspects of grinder quality are less important than with standard wheels. For example mass/damping, and the degree to which the bushings support the wheel are no longer as critical.

Among 8" grinders I've used and had good luck with CBN wheels on the 1 hp Rikon. There's also a 1/2 hp version that I've never tried. The 8" Delta variable grinder also works OK with CBN wheels, though I've relegated it to buffing/cleaning duties these days.

Half- vs Full-speed isn't as important with CBN as it is with standard wheels, because CBN run quite a bit cooler. You can certainly burn tools on a full-speed grinder with CBN, but it's not *that* hard to avoid IMO.Just keep the pressure down and quench or rest the tool often.

[Stewie Simpson]

Frank; from my limited experience of cbn wheels; they are only rated up to 3000 rpm; the Metabo DS 200 you mentioned has a higher rating of 3570 rpm. http://www.cpometabo.com/metabo-619200420-8-in--4-8-amp-bench-grinder/mtbn619200420,default,pd.html?cgid=metabo-bench-grinders

The optional width with cbn wheels is another consideration; you have a choice of 1" (25mm) or 40mm; the wheel guarding on most 6 and 8 inch grinders will only suit a width up to 25mm. if you chose to fit the wider 40mm cbn wheels, you then have 3 options available; (a) remove the guard surrounds completely, (b) just remove the end caps, (c) have new guards fabricated to house the wider width. In my case, I chose to remove the guard surrounds completely. Personally, I am extremely happy with the decision to fit the wider 40mm cbn wheels to my 6 inch grinder.

read the following attach: http://www.robohippy.net/featured-article/

Important note; personal eye protection should always be worn when grinding.

Prior to fitting the cbn wheels, I was using white Al- Oxide grinding wheels; at this stage I have not experienced any noticeable residual heat build up using the cbn wheels. That would validate what Patrick wrote on a previous post;I saw a paper a while back that claimed a >4X difference in heat dissipation per unit volume material removed compared to freshly dressed Al-Oxide wheels. Based on my own experience I think that's about right.

Attached is a photo of the 6 inch - 2850 rpm bench grinder I have in my workshop; the cbn wheels are 6 inch x 40mm Vicmarc; 80 grit (L) 180 grit (R). http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/category/vicmarc-grinder--cbn-wheels

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/bench%20grinder/_DSC0159_zpsatnwy36d.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/bench%20grinder/_DSC0159_zpsatnwy36d.jpg.html)

[george wilson]

I repeat : Half speed grinders are NOT necessary, unless you use CBN wheels that are only rated to 3000 RPM. They only make you grind twice as long. Most 8" grinders run half speed anyway, as the periphery of the larger wheels run faster to begin with. Simply grind for TWO SECONDS and quench when your bevel nears completion. LOOK AT THE WATER LEFT ON THE TOOL. When it SIZZLES,dip INSTANTLY. Keep a finger close to the cutting edge you are grinding to help feel when the tool is heating up.

If you are afraid to keep a finger tip close to the end of your tool, just keep a close eye on the water that is left on the tool after grinding. DON'T shake it off. That water is your friend. As a rule anyway, I use a white wheel,coarse as possible,and just grind for 2 seconds and quench instantly. Keep the water cup right in front of the grinder. Not on top of the grinder(Our old Delta had a large cast iron water cup on a swing arm ABOVE the grinder. You do not want to have to cover much distance reaching that quench. You do not want the water cup above the grinder: It is too easy to crash into it while raising the tool way up to dip it. I have noticed myself how easy it is to crash into a water cup that is suspended above the grinder. The most good an overhead cup does is to look cool!:)(No pun intended). My old flat face Craftsman has a rectangular water cup attached to its front via a slot it clips into. A good plan, if not as jazzy.

About the finger near the tip of the tool: The worst accident I have had with a bench grinder was to have the fingerprints ground off perhaps down to where it will bleed. Mostly just annoying and of course painful,but not the worst pain by any means. You DO have to be INTELLIGENT ENOUGH to not get your finger jammed between the wheel and the end of the tool rest. You WILL lose that disagreement !!

[Mike Holbrook]

I use a Delta variable speed grinder 8". I have thought about buying a second grinder but the Delta is working fine for now. The largest challenge I had was getting my Batty tool rest to fit around the base.

I have hollow ground: BU Veritas blades (A2 & PM-V11), Custom Veritas PM-V11, regular Stanley blades, Lee Valley PM-V11 blades made for Stanley planes and several different types of single iron blades for wood planes.

My experience has been that unless you push hard against the grinding wheel the blades do not get more than warm. I keep a finger or two fairly close to the edge to monitor heat. I started out stopping every few seconds to check the heat level, recently I do 15 seconds or so of grinding between heat and bevel checks. I could go longer than 15 seconds but I like to check how even my bevel is developing at about 15 seconds. If the bevel gets uneven on one side, fixing it slows the process down worse than just checking it every 15 seconds or so. YMMV

Pushing hard against the wheel always proves counter productive for me, in terms of getting a good even bevel anyway. I always have at least a little camber at the corners of the blades I hollow grind.

I Believe David Weaver uses/used a Baldor grinder with 6" wheel and felt the smaller wheel was not an issue.

I ran a similar thread when I bought my CBN wheels. I have seen several other threads asking what types of grinders people like. The Metabo has been mentioned a few times, Jet grinders are popular among turners, but it always seems like everyone has something different. The newer Rikon grinders seem to be building a following and the prices are reasonable. Baldor always seems to be the favorite higher priced grinder and the machines with 6" wheels are not as expensive.

[Tom M King]

338943I'm the one with the full speed Metabo. If I kept anything on it, no matter how lightly, for 15 seconds, I would be WAY past what I was trying to do. The speed is no problem, but you do have to have a light touch. I bought several cheaper, slow speed ones, and sent them back. This is what I was looking for. It had been running for a few minutes with that stuff sitting on it while I went to the truck to get the camera. Now, something past two years later, it still runs like that.

[george wilson]

Obviously how long you can keep grinding without quenching depends upon :1. How sharp your wheel is,and its composition. 2; How thick your bevel still is. 3; How light your touch is. 4; the RPM of the wheel. And various other less important factors. Your mileage may vary. I see Tom has the high priced spread!:)

[Pat Barry]

An 8 inch grinder running at ~3500 RPM equates to an effective speed of 7000 SFPM (surface feet per minute). A 6 inch grinder at the same RPM runs at ~ 5500 SFPM. Half speed grinders deliver 1/2 the SFPM. Using the 8 inch grinder for 15 seconds exposes the chisel of plane blade to 1750 feet of abrasives, of course, pressure applied is highly important. My little 6 inch grinder slows noticeably with pressure applied. None the less, it doesn't take long to get the job done and there really isn't a big difference in 6 inch versus 8 inch practically speaking. I suppose you could say it takes 25% more time with a 6 inch wheel to do the same material removal but really just another second or two.

[Patrick Chase]

An 8 inch grinder running at ~3500 RPM equates to an effective speed of 7000 SFPM (surface feet per minute). A 6 inch grinder at the same RPM runs at ~ 5500 SFPM. Half speed grinders deliver 1/2 the SFPM. Using the 8 inch grinder for 15 seconds exposes the chisel of plane blade to 1750 feet of abrasives, of course, pressure applied is highly important. My little 6 inch grinder slows noticeably with pressure applied. None the less, it doesn't take long to get the job done and there really isn't a big difference in 6 inch versus 8 inch practically speaking. I suppose you could say it takes 25% more time with a 6 inch wheel to do the same material removal but really just another second or two.

I think that once you get above a certain level you're going to be thermally limited anyway, meaning that the things you do to avoid tool-burning (resting, quenching, whatever) take more of the time than the actual grinding. Once you get into that regime a 25% or even 50% difference in SFPM isn't going to make a huge productivity difference. I would argue that both full- and half-speed 8" grinders operate in that regime, though obviously opinions vary.

I'm pretty conservative, and that may cause me to be more thermally limited than I should be. I quench when the tool gets uncomfortable to touch and keep quenching until it's lukewarm, but it takes about 450F to begin to change the temper of a typical edge tool.

[Tom M King]

I would have rather had a slow speed one, but none I tried were smooth. I really just ordered the Metabo to try it to see how smooth it was. It never went back. I do wish they sold a slow speed one. I get to deduct whatever I spend on tools, and that was close to the end of a year when I needed to buy some more tools. I have a Baldor on a pedestal in the mechanic/metal shop, but didn't want to remove it from where it is. The old Baldor belonged to my Dad, and runs pretty smoothly, but has friable wheels which require all sorts of maintenance. I don't want to shapen mower blades with a CBN wheel.

[Mike Holbrook]

I must be using a great deal less pressure than others. I was just working a new blade. It is hard to time with an Apple watch or iPhone because they turn off before 15 seconds. I counted slow and looked at a watch... I can go 15 seconds and more easily and I never quench. I touch the blade to my bare arm to test the temp and my blade actually feels cool most of the time. The Delta grinder is a variable speed but I believe the slow speed is faster than a slow speed grinder. I run it slow to medium speed.

I guess I am grinding very slow in order to make precise cambers, with the edges at steeper angles than the center of the blade. It does take me a while to do a new blade but I don't mind spending the extra time to get a relatively precise bevel without heating the blade up past warm.

[Patrick Chase]

I must be using a great deal less pressure than others. I was just working a new blade. It is hard to time with an Apple watch or iPhone because they turn off before 15 seconds. I counted slow and looked at a watch... I can go 15 seconds and more easily and I never quench. I touch the blade to my bare arm to test the temp and my blade actually feels cool most of the time. The Delta grinder is a variable speed but I believe the slow speed is faster than a slow speed grinder. I run it slow to medium speed.

The Delta's min speed is 2000 rpm, or about 10% faster than "half speed". You can adjust the off-time on your iDevices BTW.

[Frank Martin]

Thanks for all the great responses. My worry is not speed at all, in other words, slower is just fine. In fact, if 6 inch wheel size is not an issue when grinding thick Veritas bevel up plane irons due to deeper hollow than one would get with a 8 inch wheel, I will likely just go with a 6 inch size. Other than being faster, is there any inherent advantage for 8 inch grinders? It seems they are a lot more common among turners, I am not and don't plan to get into turning any time soon.

[Mike Holbrook]

There are tools, Japanese chisels for one, that many experts suggest not hollow grinding. Some knowledgable users still hollow grind some of these tools particularly with 8 & 10 inch wheels. The lesser bevel may be preferred in these situations.

I thought about buying a grinder with a 6" wheel, but felt that the 8" would make better bevels on the drawknives, scorps, adzes and other green wood tools I use. I suspect someone will "do the math" and give you the actual numbers. Still, it just depends on the tools you use and what size bevel might benefit them. I was also thinking about getting a lathe for turning where the 8" grinder seems to be preferred.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Frank; from my limited experience of cbn wheels; they are only rated up to 3000 rpm; the Metabo DS 200 you mentioned has a higher rating of 3570 rpm. http://www.cpometabo.com/metabo-619200420-8-in--4-8-amp-bench-grinder/mtbn619200420,default,pd.html?cgid=metabo-bench-grinders


Please note that RPM for this type of motor depends on mains frequency - 50Hz or 60Hz. Stewie lives in Austrialia with 50Hz. Metabo DS 200 would run at 2980 RPM there. https://www.metabo.com/com/en/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/metal-processing/bench-grinders/ds-200-619200000-bench-grinder.html#description (See (220-240 V / 50 HZ) note there). Some other grinders can have a little less like 2800 or so, but always less than 3000. For half speed it is less than 1500 RPM. Search for AC motors or induction motor to learn more.

I wonder now, why some or most CBN wheels have limit 3000 RPM - does it mean that any 50 Hz grinder is good? Should be, but then they often write recommended speed that is half of that.

[Pat Barry]

. I suspect someone will "do the math" and give you the actual numbers.
The depth of the hollow is only about a maximum of 1.5 mils (0.0015") difference comparing the 8 inch wheel to the 6 inch wheel.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

I suspect someone will "do the math" and give you the actual numbers.

Hollow will be deep like this:

deep = R - sqrt( R*R - a*a/4 )

Where "a" is the length of the hollow bevel measured straight between start and end of the hollow grind, thanks to Pythagoras :)

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Some useful numbers:

For hollow 1" long the difference between 6" and 8" wheel would be 0.005" (0.021" vs 0.016")

For hollow 1/2" long the difference between 6" and 8" wheel would be 0.0013" (0.00521" vs 0.00391")

So, from theoretical point of view I can conclude that 6 or 8 mostly different in speed of work and life span and money. In practice - I don't have any. ;)

[Frank Martin]

I ended up with a slightly used 7" full speed (3600 rpm) Baldor at a great price. Now onto finding the right CBN wheel. It appears 180 grit is the one to start. I have been thinking of getting a 1.5" wide wheel with side grinding option (i.e., about 1" portion of the side coated in CBN) but have not yet found one.

Any recommendations? This will be used for plane irons and chisels for the most part. I don't do turning and no plans at the moment.

[Derek Cohen]

Frank

Contact Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders. He provided super service to me.

Apparently Ken has crowned wheels in now, as well as the straight wheels I use:

http://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/crown-cbn-wheels

I have no difficulty with straight wheels since they are wide and grind so fast. However, if you are used to running the blade past a crowned face, then you may prefer the crowned wheel.

Get the 180 grit. I use it 90% of the time. I also have a 80 grit, which is intended for deep grinding.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Bjorgen]

I also have a 7-inch Baldor although mine is 1800 rpm. The only vendor I found selling 7-inch CBN wheels was D-Way Tools. I don't see any side grinding options in his list but you should contact Dave, the owner, to see what he can offer. I bought the 180 wheel and removed the outer half of the wheel guard and attached a magnet at the back of the inner half to collect metallic particles from grinding. I use my setup primarily for turning tools so it is equipped with the Wolverine system.

I suppose your side grind options might improve if you remove both halves of the wheel guards so you can then install an 8-inch wheel.

[Derek Cohen]

You can use wheels from 6" - 8" on a 7" machine. The guards are not necessary with these wheels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Ritter]

I have one of the crowned CBN wheels, there was a bit of a learning curve for me, it is very fast and doesn't heat the tool much at all. The first couple tries ended with a bit of a scalloped edge that I had to true up on stones. Now that I've got the hang of it it is possible to grind cambers without rotating the blade, just by varying the pressure.
jim

[John K Jordan]

I ended up with a slightly used 7" full speed (3600 rpm) Baldor at a great price. Now onto finding the right CBN wheel. It appears 180 grit is the one to start. I have been thinking of getting a 1.5" wide wheel with side grinding option (i.e., about 1" portion of the side coated in CBN) but have not yet found one.Any recommendations? This will be used for plane irons and chisels for the most part. I don't do turning and no plans at the moment.

I can't help with the exact grit (I don't sharpen plane irons much), but I can also say Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders has treated me right. I have purchased and ordered 6 wheels from him now for myself and others, from 80 to 600 grit. I do like the 600 grit wheels but that may not matter if you finish your edge on a fine flat stone.
http://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/cbn-wheels
(http://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/cbn-wheels)

Oh, Ken also sells an inexpensive washer set that can help the wheel run perfectly true on some grinders.

For my sharpening (mostly turning tools) I prefer the flat wheel with the square corners (not radiused) and with the 1" side coating. Can you remove the wheel guards and use the 8" wheels on the 7" grinder? Most people run CBN wheels without the guards.

JKJ

[Frank Martin]

I will contact D-Way and Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders to see what they recommend. I prefer 7" wheel to keep the surface speed a little lower compared to 8" wheel as my grinder spins at 3600 rpm.

Thanks!

[Frank Martin]

I realize Ken's wheels are aluminum as opposed to D-Way's steel. Any disadvantage to aluminim wheels? I know they are lighter and can be better for low powered grinders but I don't think this is an advantage in the case of Baldor I have.

[Patrick Chase]

I realize Ken's wheels are aluminum as opposed to D-Way's steel. Any disadvantage to aluminim wheels? I know they are lighter and can be better for low powered grinders but I don't think this is an advantage in the case of Baldor I have.

Ken's square-cornered wheels have aluminum hubs, but the substrate onto which the CBN is electroplated is still steel. His round-cornered wheels are all steel just like D-Way's. I don't think there's much of a practical difference between the two.

[Derek Cohen]

I realize Ken's wheels are aluminum as opposed to D-Way's steel. Any disadvantage to aluminim wheels? I know they are lighter and can be better for low powered grinders but I don't think this is an advantage in the case of Baldor I have.

I have both types and cannot tell the difference. Personally, I would rather deal with Ken, and that makes a difference where I would go shopping. The support service from Woodturners Wonders was fantastic.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Martin]

Sounds great. I will go ahead with Ken. Thanks for helping me with all the first hand information.

[Jim Ritter]

Another vote for Ken as a great guy to work with. I spoke with him a couple of nights ago and asked about the 3000 limit on the wheels and his reply was the faster speeds increase the risk of heating the tool. I was concerned because my CBN is on a 3600 RPM 6" grinder. Structurally it is not a limit. I've never even heated a tool that was much more than wam to the touch.
Jim

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Another vote for Ken as a great guy to work with. I spoke with him a couple of nights ago and asked about the 3000 limit on the wheels and his reply was the faster speeds increase the risk of heating the tool. I was concerned because my CBN is on a 3600 RPM 6" grinder. Structurally it is not a limit. I've never even heated a tool that was much more than wam to the touch.
Jim

That is interesting because normally grinders are fixed speed. In US with 60Hz mains that would be slightly less than 3600 for regular speed or 1800 rpm for half speed. In other countries with 50 Hz mains that would be 3000 or 1500 rpm. Does it mean that with 50 Hz mains regular speed grinder will be fine but with 60 Hz it would be too high? Given the feel of approximation in the answer from Ken (as I understand it) it means that 3000 rpm max means use half speed grinder, with both 50 or 60 Hz mains. Is that so?

[Mike Holbrook]

I will toss another vote in for Ken, who is practically a neighbor. I think he may do custom wheels and does not list everything on line, if you do not see what you want I would call and ask. I believe he experiments with different metal compositions, but does not sell what he has not personally tested thoroughly.

[Jim Ritter]

I think you are overthinking this Andrey. What I understood from Ken was at 3600 RPM it is possible to overheat the tool, at 1800 RPM it is very difficult to overheat. It's not that you can in one and not on the other. My first try with the CBN was a badly ground and chipped chisel from a yard sale. It trued the edge up very fast and bearly got the tool warm. I checked often because I was new to the wheel. He does recommend the 6" wheel for the higher speed grinders (and that is what I have with a radius face) as the smaller wheel relates to less feet per minute of the face of the wheel. So I wouldn't put an 8" wheel on a high speed grinder as the opportunity to overheat the tool goes up.
Jim


edit,
you are right Mike. He will make a wheel with any grit level you want if he doesn't stock it. There will be a wait time for it but he will do it. In fact I asked him to make me a flat honing plate with 300 / 1200 grit combo , it's on it's way to me now. I'm thinking of offering a package deal with the sharpening jig once I get that up and running.

[Stewie Simpson]

This article was of good value to a non electrical background; How to Determine Speed for an Ac Induction Motor http://www.achrnews.com/articles/84983-how-to-determine-speed-for-an-ac-induction-motor

[Adam Herman]

Anyone use the variable speed delta 8 in? seems like a great price. this would solve your rpm problems at a lower cost. http://www.cpooutlets.com/delta-23-197-5-0-amp-8-in--variable-speed-grinder/dwwn23-197,default,pd.html?start=4&cgid=bench-grinders

[John K Jordan]

Ken's square-cornered wheels have aluminum hubs, but the substrate onto which the CBN is electroplated is still steel. His round-cornered wheels are all steel just like D-Way's. I don't think there's much of a practical difference between the two.

Patrick,

This might be old information.

Ken Rizza told me just now that his CBN wheels are all 6061 aluminum. A few years ago he did have a steel wheel and could have gone with a rounded wheel with a steel rim on a plastic hub, but doesn't carry either of those.

I have 5 of his wheels, 8" and 10", most with square corners and a couple with radius corners. I checked and they are made entirely of aluminum.

BTW, Ken is extremely reachable by phone and email and always seems happy to answer questions!
(678) 442-9454
http://woodturnerswonders.com/

Disclaimer: I have no pony in this race, just a satisfied customer.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

Anyone use the variable speed delta 8 in? seems like a great price. this would solve your rpm problems at a lower cost. http://www.cpooutlets.com/delta-23-197-5-0-amp-8-in--variable-speed-grinder/dwwn23-197,default,pd.html?start=4&cgid=bench-grinders

Adam, I don't have one of these but the variable speed looked interesting. I did ask Ken Rizza (Woodturners Wonders) if he had any experience with the Delta. He said several of his CBN wheel customers reported problems with these grinders running true. He did mention that his special alignment washers apparently took care of the problem.

BTW, I use these washers with every CBN wheel. http://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/self-aligning-spherical-washer-sets

JKJ

[Mike Holbrook]

Reviving this thread as much discussion of Grinders for CBN wheels has been covered in this thread.

I talked to Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders (WW) yesterday. He now sells Rikon grinders. He removes the guards and tests them with one or two of his wheels installed. I am considering putting lighter buffing wheel(s) or a single CBN & buffer on my Delta grinder and buying the 1HP Rikon.

I have some issues with the tool rests I have been using, having to do with how one is mounted and the lack of a solid/functional locking system on the other. I am thinking about ordering the new version of the Tormek jig for sharpening cambers on plane blades. Ken Hatch mentions it in a thread below. I would mount it on a BGM 100 tool bar, like Derek Cohen uses on his grinder. Mounting the BGM 100 and the round Stuart Batty rest I have is going to require a little trial and error/experimentation to get them mounted solidly over the wheels. I would like to be able to “grind” a larger variety of the hand tools I use. I am working on a plan for a better sharpening station, using an existing cabinet I have. I would like to get it set up properly the first time, this time.

I plan to end up with a WW-80 grit, Mega CBN with a Stuart Batty rest and a 4 in 1 WW-CBN 350 with the BGM 100 rest on the other side. Unless someone offers other suggestions. I have a D Way 180 grit CBN wheel. I hope the 80 will allow me to grind profiles faster. Although the WW-CBN 350 may be lighter than the D Way, which may make it more suitable for the Delta grinder? The D Way might also just be a backup for the 1 HP Rikon. Ken apparently has a 80 and 350 on his machine.

[John K Jordan]

I have some issues with the tool rests I have been using, having to do with how one is mounted and the lack of a solid/functional locking system on the other. I am thinking about ordering the new version of the Tormek jig for sharpening cambers on plane blades.

Mike,

FWIW, I have been using the Tormek jigs with a bench grinder for a long time, before they offered the kit. I ordered the pieces as spare parts and made a mount from wood. I have things positioned so I can use either the Tormek tool bar or the Wolverine base and accessories - the cutout in the wood block is to allow room for the Wolverine locking handle . I prefer the Wolverine platform for many tools but the Tormek gouge jig for my spindle gouges.

376129

BTW, I don't use the radiused CBN wheel any more. I far prefer wheels with the square corners (plus 1" of grit down the flat sides). That grinder now has 600 grit and 220 grit CBN wheels.

JKJ

[roger wiegand]

just noticed I was entering the middle of an old thread-- sorry!

I got the 1 hp Rikon and a 180 grit CBN wheel from Wood Turner's Wonders last month, and I could't be happier. It removes metal plenty fast for my taste and leaves a nice edge. The grinder is as smooth as can be. My 1960's sears 6" model has officially been retired to lawn mower blade duty. I'm thinking about a second 180 grit wheel so that I can leave one side set up for the bowl gouge and have the platform support on the other side.

[John Fenn]

I am wonder if anyone has experience with Toycen Tradesman Variable Speed DC grinder with Cuttmasters CBN wheels? I have been eyeing one for quite awhile but there is not much information on them and they are on the top end price wise.

[Mike Holbrook]

John K,
Thanks for the reply. I need more room for larger tools below the rests pictured. I was thinking about mounting a BGM 100 and the SB rest higher, closer to the top of the wheel, which may increase my access to the wheel. The LV rest is not working for me. I think the 1 HP Rikon, being larger, will make more room too.

I guess you are using Ken’s Mega Square wheels now? I believe they come in 80 grit, or have Ken’s selections changed?

Rodger, thanks for your review of Ken’s current offerings.

John I suspect the grinder you mention is not in my current budget.

376165

[John K Jordan]

John K,
Thanks for the reply. I need more room for larger tools below the rests pictured. I was thinking about mounting a BGM 100 and the SB rest higher, closer to the top of the wheel, which may increase my access to the wheel. The LV rest is not working for me. I think the 1 HP Rikon, being larger, will make more room too.

376165

I rotated the photo for you. I don't know why you had trouble - I used Photoshop to rotate and convert it to a JPG.

I'm not sure you'll get that much more useful space to work with. I have 1/2hp, 3/4hp, and 1/hp grinders and there is very little difference between the heights of the shafts. In fact, the grinder you show appears to have a fairly tall base with the controls and they look higher to start with, but perhaps the photo makes it look that way.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about mounting the rests closer to the top of the wheel. What I'm imagining might make the grinder difficult to use. Is there some way to make removable bases for each of the tool rests, each one indexed to the exact position needed with pins or something, and locked down? I'm imagining aluminum plates with lever-cam clamps or something locking them into place.

JKJ

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for fixing the picture John. I tried removing the picture and re loading it, taking another picture....everything resulted in the same upside down picture. The pictures I took were right side up before I loaded them into SMC. I even tried using a program, like Photoshop, to turn the picture upside down, thinking it might end up right side up....not. My best guess is there is some sort of gyroscope bug in the new iPad/iPhone system 11 IOS software. It will take a while to get all the bugs out of the major software changes in system 11. I think I have seen others having similar issues.

Large objects, like large axe heads, do not fit on the SB or LV rests because there is not enough space below the rest to fit the rear end of the tool in. A flatter rest, at the upper part of the wheel, orients the back end of the tool further from the table top. I am tryng to lay the axe head on the rest’s table so I can maintain the same angle to the wheel.

Do you have issues with 1/2 HP grinders wearing or slowing down, due to lack of HP? The other issue I have with the Delta grinder is the axel is too short for some CBN wheels.

[Clint Bach]

Your grinder seems to be pretty far back on the table. Moving it closer to the front edge might solve your problem. Better access and tools not interfering with the table. Just saying...

clint

[Mike Holbrook]

I used an old pre cut/scrap cabinet top to make the existing grinder platform from, as a temporary solution. The SB rest is maybe an inch from the edge. I plan to make another larger top. Still the design of the SB rest base may be a limiting factor. I am deciding whether or not to continue using the Delta grinder for my CBN wheels....A wider, “square” CBN wheel, like John K and Derek Cohen use, will not fit on the Delta’s arbor. My plan is to redesign the whole cabinet to fit the grinder and rests I will use, after I decide which grinder and CBN wheels to use, thus the questions I have posed.

[John K Jordan]

Do you have issues with 1/2 HP grinders wearing or slowing down, due to lack of HP? The other issue I have with the Delta grinder is the axel is too short for some CBN wheels.

The 1/2 hp Rikon I have does start up more slowly but no issues yet besides that. I've heard of people with two heavy steel CBN wheels having to give a spin by hand to get the grinder going.

iPhone evidently records the camera orientation in the image file. Sometimes even editing the image doesn't help. What usually helps is loading the image in some program, making a edit, then saving it as a completely different file type. Maybe that fixed yours.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Delta grinder is designed for narrower wheels. The 1 HP Rikon should turn the 1.5 wide, radius edge, 180 grit steel D-Way and an aluminum WW 1.5 Mega Square, 80 grit wheel without any trouble. I have reason to think these two wheels will present a problem for the Delta. I would like to be able to use both wheels on a single machine. I could try it with the Delta but I don’t think the wheels will fit properly and I would prefer to mount buffing wheels on the Delta. I would also like to be confident that my new sharpening station will handle the maximum range of tool, sizes and shapes.

I did not think about changing the format of the picture John, good tip.

[Tom M King]

I'm a bit late seeing this thread, but hope my update may be useful information. I'm the guy with the high speed Metabo grinder seen earlier in this thread.

While I could grind tools with that setup, and not over heat an edge, my helpers had a harder time. Since I want my helpers to be able to do what needs to be done, the Metabo got put to another use, and I picked up a Baldor buffer off CL that runs at half the speed of the Metabo grinder. Anyone can grind with that setup without overheating an edge.

The Baldor is as smooth as the Metabo, but I stole if for the asking price off $65. I wouldn't pay the new price for a Baldor, but I have a bunch of Baldor motors, and it's my first choice in electric motors. I already had one dedicated to buffing, but didn't want to take that one out of buffer service.

Knowing what I experienced with the Metabo smoothness, if starting from scratch, I would be tempted to get the 10" Metabo that runs at 1800, but if the return policy was okay with the previously mentioned grinders in this thread, I'd try one of those first.

In short, I'd recommend starting with a slow speed grinder.

[Mel Fulks]

Good points there,Tom. Does little good to have employees burning tools that belong to you. I've done a lot of grinding such as making shaper cutters and maintaining chisels and such; and still much more at home with the 1725 range speed.

[Derek Cohen]

Knowing what I experienced with the Metabo smoothness, if starting from scratch, I would be tempted to get the 10" Metabo that runs at 1800, but if the return policy was okay with the previously mentioned grinders in this thread, I'd try one of those first.

Tom, I am not sure if there is a typo, but the surface speed of a 10" at half speed will be about the same as a full speed 8". Did you mean to recommend a half speed 8"?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

It's sold as a 10" grinder, with 10" friable wheels. The 10" wheels, and everything else comes off. It's a 1800 rpm motor. Metabo doesn't make anything but that one 8", that I'm aware of. https://www.metabo.com/us/enus/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/metal-processing/bench-grinders/dsd-250-619250420-bench-grinder.html

It's still not cheap, but probably less than a Baldor buffer. It's been a while since I looked at their prices.

[Derek Cohen]

Tom, I once owned a 10" full speed (not half speed) bench grinder. It was scary! :eek: It sounded like a jet taking off. The wheels pushed so much air, that it felt like sitting in front of a fan. Although I balanced the wheels, it still had enough vibration that it wanted to walk across the bench. After a few weeks I put it up for sale, and it was purchased by a machinist (who is the target for this size bench grinder). He was happy with the performance ... !

Compared this with the other end of the spectrum, a 6" bench grinder - it almost feels like a toy. My Tormek has a 10" wheel, however this turns at 90 rpm as opposed to the 1800 of your machine.

The Beast! ....

https://s19.postimg.org/rig3ptzcz/Grinderand_Tormek.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John K Jordan]

It's sold as a 10" grinder, with 10" friable wheels. The 10" wheels, and everything else comes off. It's a 1800 rpm motor. ...

I have the Metabo DS-200, 8" with 1" arbor, full speed, less torque and HP than their 10". I bought one for my little welding shop. I had to do some backflips to get a wire wheel on it. A wonderful bench grinder.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054M9546 I see they sell a 7" grinder too, the DS-175

JKJ

[John Keeton]

I have had a D-Way 80 grit CBN wheel for several years and recently purchased the Rikon 1 hp grinder and 600 grit Mega Square CBN. Great setup - quick to power up, quiet and smooth.

[Tom M King]

That 1hp Rikon is the one I would try first now. If it was available when I ended up with the Metabo, I just missed it, or it might be the one I'd be using now. Having experienced how smooth the Metabo is, it would be hard to accept less now. I ordered, and sent back two different slow speed grinders before I tried the Metabo, and it stayed. I wish Metabo had a larger selection than they do. I should have sent the full speed 8" back, and ordered the slower 10", but I was making out fine with the full speed, and didn't think far enough ahead to realize that my helpers would have a hard time.

[John K Jordan]

.. Having experienced how smooth the Metabo is, it would be hard to accept less now....

My experience is the 1hp Rikon with CBN wheels is just as smooth as the Metabo with the traditional wheels. The wheels that Rikon puts on a new grinder seem pretty cheap and I've seen some with horrible vibrations. Even good norton wheels gave me some vibration until I added the OneWay balancing system. I've heard of some people having trouble with some vibration with CBN wheels on cheaper grinders but I haven't seen it on four Rikons. Perhaps one difference is I always use the spherical washer sets from Woodturners Wonders - they appear to be designed to compensate for any small irregularities in the stock washer and nut.

Perhaps Metabo uses better wheels than other mfgrs. I do like the power, switches, stock tool rest and the wheel guards of the Matabo, the general feel of quality - better than any others I've used or had. I've never used a Baldor, though.

JKJ

[Tom M King]

Regular wheels don't factor into the smoothness comparison. This picture was taken the first time I turned the high speed Metabo on with the CBN wheel. I left it running, and went to the truck to get the camera, so it had been running with the things in the picture sitting on it for several minutes. I hadn't even tightened the nuts holding the grinder to the plywood base. I haven't taken such a picture since I've been using the Baldor buffer, but it feels the same. There is Zero runout at the surface of the wheel. I wouldn't accept less than that now.

[Roy Turbett]

Anyone use the variable speed delta 8 in? seems like a great price. this would solve your rpm problems at a lower cost. http://www.cpooutlets.com/delta-23-197-5-0-amp-8-in--variable-speed-grinder/dwwn23-197,default,pd.html?start=4&cgid=bench-grinders

I have the Delta VS grinder with an 80 grit CBN wheel and a 220 grit diamond wheel with a wolverine jig and the guards removed. I'm very pleased with how it works.

I recently added a Tormek BGM100 bench grinding jig that is mounted to the right of the wolverine jig and elevated so it is parallel to the center of the wheel. I opted for this setup over the wolverine adapter jig because the ergonomics are better for grinding knives, planer blades, and plane irons. Its also easier to adjust the BGM100 exactly parallel to the wheel and I can always add a wolverine adapter jig at a later time. I hardly ever use my Tormek anymore and will probably add a second BGM100 for the 80 grit wheel on the left.

I recently picked up a 1 hp 1725 RPM Milwaukee grinder at a school auction and am considering switching grinders because it is wider and will allow me to sharpen 15" planer blades without the end of the blade hitting the other wheel. I'm also looking at the possibility of adding a speed control to the grinder. The speed control listed below is for brush type motors and I'm not sure if will work with a grinder.

http://www.rockler.com/router-speed-control

[Shane MacMillan]

I have the Delta VS grinder with an 80 grit CBN wheel and a 220 grit diamond wheel with a wolverine jig and the guards removed. I'm very pleased with how it works.

I recently added a Tormek BGM100 bench grinding jig that is mounted to the right of the wolverine jig and elevated so it is parallel to the center of the wheel. I opted for this setup over the wolverine adapter jig because the ergonomics are better for grinding knives, planer blades, and plane irons. Its also easier to adjust the BGM100 exactly parallel to the wheel and I can always add a wolverine adapter jig at a later time. I hardly ever use my Tormek anymore and will probably add a second BGM100 for the 80 grit wheel on the left.

I recently picked up a 1 hp 1725 RPM Milwaukee grinder at a school auction and am considering switching grinders because it is wider and will allow me to sharpen 15" planer blades without the end of the blade hitting the other wheel. I'm also looking at the possibility of adding a speed control to the grinder. The speed control listed below is for brush type motors and I'm not sure if will work with a grinder.

http://www.rockler.com/router-speed-control


Did you have to do any changes to Wolverine base to get it to not interfere with the BGM100?