Avoiding having 23 gauge pins go out the side?

[Wade Lippman]

I am making a frame for my son's college diploma out of curupay. I have never used it before, but the color is great with the matting.
I have cut the pieces, and have to route them and glue them together.
I have never trusted just glue for frames and intended on reinforcing the corners with a couple pins. I drilled pilot holes with a drill just under the size of the pin in a piece of scrap; when I hammered the pin it, it split. So that is no good.
I tried some #23 pins from a Grex nailer; but about half shoot out the side.
So my question... are the pins more likely to go or the side if I have the nailer parallel to the grain, or perpendicular; or doesn't it much matter?

This might be my opportunity to learn to use a spline...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'd use a spline OR drill a countersunk hole, drive in a screw and plug the hole with a plug cut from the same wood aligning the grain of the plug to blend in.

[Raymond Fries]

+1 for splines. Their not that hard to do.

Good Luck with your project.

[Cody Colston]

I feel your pain. I haven't used my pin nailer yet (Christmas gift) but I don't think I've ever used my brad nailer that I didn't blow a nail out the side. FWIW, I think holding the nailer perpendicular to the piece works best. Also, don't use a nail/brad/pin any longer than is necessary.

As an alternative to pin nails, consider putting contrasting keys in the corners of the frame. That's what I normally do with small boxes, etc.

[Bill White]

Look at the chisel tip on the pins. The chisel edge should not be aligned WITH the grain. That's what causes the blow out.
Bill

[Martin Wasner]

Look at the chisel tip on the pins. The chisel edge should not be aligned WITH the grain. That's what causes the blow out.
Bill


False.

The chisel should be perpendicular to the grain so it cuts through it and is less prone to following the grain. True of any chisel point nail. Also helps prevent splitting.

How much it really well matter on a micro pin I don't know. They get knocked off course pretty easily.

[Mike Henderson]

Look at the chisel tip on the pins. The chisel edge should not be aligned WITH the grain. That's what causes the blow out.
Bill


False.

The chisel should be perpendicular to the grain so it cuts through it and is less prone to following the grain. True of any chisel point nail. Also helps prevent splitting.

How much it really well matter on a micro pin I don't know. They get knocked off course pretty easily.

I think you're both saying the same thing. Perhaps Martin missed the "not" in Bill's comment.

Mike

[In any case, I don't think 23 gauge pins are going to hold a lot. I mostly use them to hold something until the glue dries (when it's hard to clamp).]

[Jim Finn]

The only reason I ever use my pin nailer is when I cannot easily clamp the joint. The glue is stronger than a pin nail.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Also, use good quality pins (Grex, etc). I had every other pin go sideways until I tossed out the Harbor Freight ones - haven't had one go sideways, since.

[Bill Orbine]

Also, use good quality pins (Grex, etc). I had every other pin go sideways until I tossed out the Harbor Freight ones - haven't had one go sideways, since.

I'll second that......... you buy cheap, you get cheap!

[Martin Wasner]

I think you're both saying the same thing. Perhaps Martin missed the "not" in Bill's comment.

Mike

[In any case, I don't think 23 gauge pins are going to hold a lot. I mostly use them to hold something until the glue dries (when it's hard to clamp).]

Ooop. Correct. I missed the "not" part.

[Lee Schierer]

If you are doing mitered corners, remember that you are essentially gluing an end grain joint. Coat both sides of the joint with glue to prevent glue starvation. You can also size the joints first with diluted glue that will soak in and seal the wood a bit before you actually join the parts.

If you are still worried, a small bead of clear silicon about 1" long going both ways from each corner to adhere the glass will make the frame considerably stronger.

[Bill White]

Thank you Mike.
Bill

[lowell holmes]

I have used pins as well as finish nail guns. The pins have never failed me, but I don't expect them to hold in tension.
If real holding power is needed, I use a nail gun.

[Wade Lippman]

I have used pins as well as finish nail guns. The pins have never failed me, but I don't expect them to hold in tension.
If real holding power is needed, I use a nail gun.

I figure that if you put a couple pins in from both sides at least one will be shear. And while they still won't be particularly strong, there won't be all that much weight to hold.
Yeah, the glue ought to be adequate, but I like to be safe.

[glenn bradley]

Bill, Martin and Mike are all correct. That being said, pre-moisten the end grain with glue, wait about half a minute and then apply glue as normal and clamp. There is no need for pins IMHO. I haven't lost one yet ;-)

[Jim Dwight]

I don't think I can see the tips of 23 gauge pins, at least without magnification. I am also doubtful that aligning that feature with the grain (or across it) will stop the pins coming out the side in some wood but I haven't tried it. I have observed that it happens a lot worse in some wood than others. I don't generally have a problem but areas around knots or otherwise with varying wood density can be a problem. In that sort of wood, a spline or something may work a lot better. But usually pins work fine.

[lowell holmes]

My pin driver did come in handy while building a new entrance door. It has three leaded glass panels. I used pins to hold the moulding that holds the glass panels in. The pins only see shear in this case.

They have done their job.

[Mike Heidrick]

What's your regulator set too?

[Ole Anderson]

I really don't believe a pin will add much strength to a well glued joint. It might keep a poorly glued joint from completely failing. That being said, if I felt I needed to do it, I would go with a 1" long 18 ga brad. Less likely to blow out than a pin?

[Rod Sheridan]

Wade, I would use a spline, either hidden or made from contrasting wood to be a design element.........Regards, Rod.

[Bruce Whitaker]

Wade, I would use a spline, either hidden or made from contrasting wood to be a design element.........Regards, Rod.

Wade, there is no way to quickly make strong picture frame joints. My Dad did custom framing in his shop, and I cannot even begin to count the number of picture frames that I have assembled over the last 40 years. A pro shop does not have the time (nor usually the space) to clamp joints until they are dry. We would typically cut a quantity of frames at the chopper and then begin the assembly process: Apply glue to a corner, clamp in they miter vise, drill, nail, nail set and on to the next corner and then to the next frame. An assembled frame would sit overnight or until artwork was ready to assemble. We only used air nailers on moldings less that 1-1 1/2" wide. It is really a judgement based on experience with that particular molding. Now most shops use an underpinning tool such as this: http://www.morso-guillotines.dk/products/framing/frame_upm.html

Something else to remember is that the wood used in most commercially produced picture frame molding is garbage wood, and often it is not wood at all. What you are paying for is the finish. We tend to use much better quality wood in home shop work because we do not hide it under gesso, gold leaf or Dutch metal, paint or a layer of bonded plastic or aluminum.

Bruce

[Jim Dwight]

Headless pins hold a lot better than sone expect. Pneumatic fasteners in general hold better than manually driven nails. I would trust them for a small miter that is also glued. Larger diameter nails resist deflection beter. So a 18 guage is better than a 23 gauge pin and a 16 guage nail is even better. But the holes get bigger too. Wood may split too. I can often pull a pin with pliers making it less of an issue if it comes out the side. For a small piece or one where a big hole is an issue I use a pin - and hope it goes in right. It usually does.