saw questions

[Mike Steinhilper]

Guys...usually in the other forum, but I am really attacted to the hand tool aspect of woodworking. I want to start practicing dovetails. What is the difference between a Gent saw and a Dovetail saw (other than size) and which is better? Also, what kind of marking guage do you recommend? My local store has a huge one, but i've seen smaller. Planes??? Is there a problem with a Stanley #5 off the shelf from BORG? I figure I need a 5 and longer jointer plane, but don't have a lot of cash for them. Any help?

[Mike Weaver]

Mike,
As you said, this is usually addressed in the other forum, but...
I believe the difference between a "gent saw" and a "dovetail saw" may be in
the handle and size of saw

Gent saws usually have a small straight handle. Dovetail saws *usually* have an open, curved handle, not unlike those on backsaws.

With that said, a gents saw can certainly be used for dovetails and there are actally dovetail saws made like gents saw.

Clear as mud? Good. :eek:

As to which is better - in the other forum you'll get lots of info. A lot of it is personal preference. For example, the late Cecil Pierce cut dovetails with a hack saw. Some prefer Western saws (that cut on the push) and some prefer Japanese (or Eastern which cut on the pull),

As for marking gage, i haven't done enough to have a preference really. I do have the Verita wheel gage, an old Stanley pin gage and an antique mortise gage. Again, best bet is to check the other forum.

Stanley #5 from the BORG is a bad idea. Cheap? Yes. Workable? Not without a lot of fettling.

Better bet would be to get a Lee Valley lane, or an antique from one of the
internet dealers (many exist & some participate in the other forum). Some users put up planes every now and then that are all ready to go.

So, basically 've said - check the other forum. :D

Seriously, I hope that helps a bit.
Cheers,
-Mike

[Mike Steinhilper]

Thanks Mike... I'll check the other forum. I can take a hint! :) btw, I lived in York for a few years as a kid. My dad was a DJ on WSBA, back when they were the BIG station... The Mighty 910. Very pretty part of the country. My folks still live in Williamsport.

[Roy Wall]

My vote would be to avoid the "gents saw" for starters......

I believe it's easier to saw straight with an "open" or "whale tail" handle if you're using a standard "western" push style saw.

BTW, both of these are often used for DT's.

[Mike Weaver]

Thanks Mike... I'll check the other forum. I can take a hint! :) btw, I lived in York for a few years as a kid. My dad was a DJ on WSBA, back when they were the BIG station... The Mighty 910. Very pretty part of the country. My folks still live in Williamsport.

Mike, looks like the omnipotent moderators have done the work for us & moved it. ;-)

BTW, I agree with Roy - I think I'd steer clear of the gents saw too. I happen to have an Independence Tools (it's a L.N. before they bought the company) dovetail saw that works great, but it's a bit pricey.

Also highly regarded (for a Western style saw) is the Adria Dovetail saw.

I believe Lief here has instructions on his webpage as to how to make one on his web page.

Also, Bob Smalser had a thread a while back about making a nifty bowsaw that's on my "round tuit" list.

I went right by WSBA a few days ago and ocassionally listen these days.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Andrew Ault]

Also, what kind of marking guage do you recommend?
For an inexpensive but good quality marking guage check out the Three-in-one Lee Valley Guage: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50440&cat=1,42936


Planes??? Is there a problem with a Stanley #5 off the shelf from BORG?
You might want to avoid the BORG jack plane. It's hard to get this plane shaped object to perform Ok. I say this out of the experience of trying to get some work done with one. You'll benefit greatly (an enjoy yourself) from buying an old one at a garage sale or The Auction Site that Shall Not Be Named. Search with Google to see how to fix it up and tune it.

Another way to go is to make ya' one, as with a Ron Hock kit: http://www.hocktools.com/kf175.htm The kit is $98.50, but you only need a few basic tooks to complete it (how do I make tools, if I have no tools?!). :) You can get alot of good work done with this particular plane.

A three inch sliding bevel is also quite useful as is a small try square. The BORG versions of these are Ok, but kind of big for this use.

You can make your own marking knife from an old hacksaw blade, some scrap hardwood and some epoxy.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Mike,

I would recommend going to Woodcraft, Rockler or any other woodworking store that has a variety of saws and give them a test drive. As Mike Weaver mentioned, people have varied preferences to their saws. And even at that, those preferences may well change over time.

Whatever saw you begin with, gent's, back, bow, Japanese or even the hacksaw doesn't matter one iota--except for your own preference which will develop with time. You most likely have some smaller handsaw available--if only a hacksaw. Begin with what you have.

As for marking gauges, it is most likely the General gauge you see at the Borg. I've got a dozen gauges, the General being one of them. I like the General for marking how far down the board to mark as it has a large registration face and seeing how the gauge is against the end of the board it is quite stable in use.

But you can even just mark off the boards themselves with a pencil. If the pins or tails are a little more proud of the other, who cares as far as practice boards are concerned. You'll quickly learn how to make adjustments in your marking technique once you just do it.

So grab a board, grab a saw, freehand the pins and mark the tails off of that once cut and trimmed. You'll need decent chisels that can cut into corners--again, you most likely have a chisel that can do this. At least well enough for test boards. Make sure to mark out the waste and cut as close to the line as you can on the waste side. And then try cutting the tails first and using it to mark the pins. Doesn't matter which you do first. But people will have sometimes strong opinions about which to do first.

Also, another way I have recommended is a concentrated learning technique using a pin/tail board that has been made using a router laying around, use one "perfect" side of the joint to mark out the other. Then saw the marked out board, trim the remainder of the waste. See if it fits. If not, cut off the end and try again. It's a good way to concentrate on only making the pins or tails, which ever you choose.

Through actually doing a couple test boards, you'll have more questions to which you'll probably be able to figure out the answers to. But for those you cannot, just throw them out here. And there is plenty of good information on several web sites that illustrate the joint. There's even someone who recently made a video and posted it--make sure you have a fast connection, though.

All-in-all, welcome to the non-electron side of woodworking. There's a certain calm about using arm-strong methods, in the quite of the shop that can be peaceful.

And remember, it suppose to be fun and don't take your first attempts too seriously if they don't meet with your approval. They will get better.

Mike

[Dan Forman]

Mike S---There is much useful info on this recent thread. http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23445

To summarize:

IMHO, the saw does matter. I had a much better time using a proper saw for the task. You can get one for as little as $6 at your local hobby shop (the top one on the linked page). http://www.blackstoneind.com/foundations/zonastore/scresults.asp?name=Fine%20or%20Ultra&ngroup=6&category=230 This is not my favorite, it's a bit light for my taste, and slow, but will deliver a smooth and straight cut. A step up would be the Tashio Odate dovetail saw which has received some good comments and is available here http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS340.XX&Category_Code=TSJ , or for a bit more, the Adria http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-ADRIA.XX&Category_Code=TMQ By all means try out a variety if you have them available locally.

Many commercial dovetail saws are made with the teeth set too wide. Ideal set seems to be .003 inches per side. If you have a good local sharpening service, they can turn just about any dovetail saw into a good performer by setting to this spec.

Before you attempt an actual joint, practice just sawing a straight line. Take to heart Allan's advice about making several hundred practice cuts first. Cutting a joint will be much less frustrating after good technique is established.

For a marking gage, I like the Veritas wheel model, which will cut and not tear the wood fibers.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49133&cat=1,42936

For planes, best bet if you are on a budget is an older Stanley/ Bailey (pre WW2) from Ebay. I have gotten several of them that are quite nice after tuning them up. Check out this site first for just about all you ever wanted to know about planes. http://www.rexmill.com/

Hope this helps.

Dan

[Mike Wenzloff]

And remember Mike, people can make this a harder and more expensive deal than it is. I know you want to practice hand-cut dovetails. More than likely as a step to using them in projects.

Some people end up more frustrated than it is worth to them and stop. They may or may not be left with costly tools they will not use often. Some I have known can cut dovetails better and faster than I can--and still give it up in favor of machine made.

It's not rocket science. It's determination and, well, muscle memory at some point, which is why Dan recommends practice cuts. That might work for some, but is too boring for others. For myself, I'm the type of person who doesn't hit golf balls on the practice range either. I just play a few rounds. Do I want to work on my short game? Play a couple rounds on a small par 3 using only irons--you get the point.

Fine tools make the work very enjoyable. But countless dovetails have been cut with less than the best of tools. Find any used Disston DT saw and you'll find the set is much wider than on an Adria or LN--both very fine saws--and yet, somehow, joinery was cut on them. And there is always the option from Lee Valley for the dovetail saw and guide. Talk about accurately developing muscle memory...

We all have a budget in mind to start and after time usually exceed our original one in pursuit of better tools. This too will happen to you. There's plenty of time to spend a lot of money on high cost tools. See if you even like it.

Heck, email me your address and I'll send you a couple saws (western and Japanese) and a plane for you to play with. It'll save you a buck or two to even see if handcut dovetails are worth it to you.

Mike

[Hank Knight]

Mike, check your private messages.

[Mike Wenzloff]

I did--before I remembered there were two other Mikes in this thread <g>...

[Alex Yeilding]

Welcome to the quiet side, Mike. Take off your hearing protection and dust mask, open a window, and listen to the song birds as you work!

Wenzloff has said most everything I was planning to (obviously a very smart guy), so I'll just reinforce a couple of points:

There are as many descriptions of the "right" way to cut dovetails, including equipment, as there are "right" ways to do French polishing. Read lots of them to see the options, and figure what makes sense to you. But don't over-analyze trying to find the "right" one. In fact, the results different people get with different methods should give you confidence that you won't choose a "wrong" method. Just find a technique that makes sense to you, and PRACTICE.

Opinions will also differ on what wood to use for practice, but most everyone agrees that it should be a hardwood. As one who doesn't enjoy practice, I find that I get practice by using dovetails in lots of places where they are not needed. My shop has lots of jigs and shop furniture that by any logic should be held together with brads until the glue dries; they are dovetailed instead. I like Mike's idea of making 1/2 of a joint by machine, the practicing the other half.

One source I like (but just one of many as you get into this) is Jeff Gorman's at http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/dovetailindex.htm

[Derek Cohen]

Mike

Lots of good advice here. One piece that I want to reinforce is that of Mike W's suggestion to use a router-made set of dovetails as a template to practice your cutting. Part of the success with dovetails is training your hand to cut straight. Personal instruction (with a tutor) certainly makes life easier than learning from a book or magazine. What one can also do is get the Veritas dovetail guide and dedicated Japanese-type dovetail saw. This will not just cut straight but more importantly guide your hand and teach you what works. While some use it all the time, I am suggesting it as a teaching aid to be replaced when you have improved your skills. Another tip for cutting straight is to gang up a few boards together so that you are cutting along a longer line.

With regard dovetail saws, my preference is to go to one of two extremes (and I do both): either use a light Japanese dovetail saw (such as the Z-saw) since it is very easy to control a cut when pulling a blade towards oneself. These are very accurate cutting saws. The other extreme is to find a traditional Western backsaw with heavy steel or, preferably brass, reinforcement. This really help stabilize a forward push. Even go for a 12" tenon saw (just make sure it is at least 13 tpi - 15 tpi is better - and sharpened rip).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Weaver]

Lots of good advice here. One piece that I want to reinforce is that of Mike W's suggestion to use a router-made set of dovetails as a template to practice your cutting.

Derek - I agree - lots of advice for Mike.

Lot's of Mike's too...:)

Heck, there are even multiple Mike W's in this thread!:eek:

While I'd like to take credit for Mike W's idea, it's not THIS Mike W.:o

Cheers,
-Mike W (the other one :D)

[Mike Wenzloff]

I know. Confused me too! Will the real Mike W please stand up...

I was out in the shop this afternoon making a new handle for a D-8 handsaw and got a phone call and the person asked for 'Mike' and just started carrying on a conversation. I was thinking at first this must be some sales schmuk trying to be my "friend," when it hit me, he was a friend of someone named Mike and he thought it was me and had misdialed. What are the odds.

Have a good night, y'all.

Another Mike W