Format Saw (by KUFO) is it OK?

[Gary Curtis]

I'm making a decision on my first Table Saw. Torn between the Canadian-made General T50 and the Kufo Sliding Table saw.

Does anyone have knowledge of the Kufo, or of any saws with a Sliding Table, such as the Felder or Knapp.

To be used in new shop of hobbyiest, for lots of cabinet work and general projects. The dealer in Los Angeles stands behind the quality of both machines, but hasn't the experience with a slider to advise me.

Gary Curtis

[Michael Ballent]

If you can afford a Knapp as your first table saw and you are certain that you enjoy woodworking then you cannot go wrong the Knapp (think Rolls Royce) or with Felder (being a Bently) :D Kufo is an asian import, the other two are made in Europe. You may also take a look at MiniMax.

Finally would you be interested in adopting a thirty something ;)

[Richard Wolf]

I wish my friend, Paul Cresti was still posting here because he is the unoffical spokesman for European sliding table saws.
If this is your first saw and you are planning on building cabinets you should be thinking sliding table.
Next point is that this will be your last table saw. If you can, by all means buy a European saw, MiniMax is top of the line in quality and customer support. Other brands may have more features and bells and whistles, but you will never be disappointed with MiniMax.
My opinion is you should also buy a 8 1/2 ft. slider. Just seems if you are going to process sheet goods you should be able to fit a full sheet on it.
You can find alot of help and Paul on the MinMax owner group on yahoo groups.
Oh, welcome to the creek.

Richard

[Jamie Buxton]

It doesn't inspire me that the US web site (www.seco-usa.com) wants me to install a Chinese font before I view their site. Seems like they're not paying much attention....

[Gary Curtis]

The reason I am grazing in Kufo land in the first place is money. I can go as high as $3000. A Felder or Knapp would be about $15,000.

And I've read Paul Cresti's posts on a few sites. My interest is in a saw only, not a combo, and much of the chat wanders away from the saw function.

One of the replies to this thread spoke about crude castings and bad tolerances. Before I would buy one of these machines, I would have the dealer pull out a dial indicator to check run-out on the blade, and alignment of the slider.

I am bothered that the motor is rated for a blade speed of 4200 rpm at 50 cycles, but ramps up to 5300 on 60 cycles. You would think they'd fit a motor specified to U.S. current.

The slide is nicely constructed. The cross-cut fence and miter gauge are pretty substantial. And it weighs over 500 lbs. The rip fence looked pretty substantial.

Gary

[Jim Becker]

I have not seen the Kufo nor seen any reviews, but do understand your cost concerns. MiniMax's SC3 (http://www.minimax-usa.com/stablesaws/sc3w.html), the low end of their line in the US lists for $5495. It's a bit heavier than the Kufo at 650 lbs and has a 5.5' slider. (Paul uses its big, big, big brother/sister, the Formula S35 in his pro shop) But I'll chime in that if you can go to this type of saw up-front, whether the Kufo if you feel comfortable with the machine and dealer, or another brand, so much the better. I personally am hoping to be able to upgrade to a slider in the future; probably as part of the "cost" of a home addition since I'm planning on doing all the cabinetry.

BTW, welcome to SMC!!

[Richard Wolf]

I'm a little confused by your second post. You are the one that mentioned Felder and Knapp and never stated price being a concern. Don't try to get more than your money will buy. $3000 will buy a great cabinet saw,(powermatic 66, saw stop, general) and most of us live with them.

Paul, dosen't own a combo saw, but a dedicated sliding table saw. If all that was ever talked about was saw function, most of us would be asleep very fast. I realize you have an interest in function now but you may have to serach the treads for more function.
I have read all the replies to you post (3) and no one said a word about rough castings or tolerances.
Take no offense, but it seems you asked a question that you already had an answer to.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Richard, he only asked about "knowledge" about the others and clarified his budget in the second post.

[Richard Wolf]

Your right Jim, and I hope my reply doesn't sound like I'm being condersenting, but it is difficult to compare a $3000 sliding table saw to a Felder, which I assumed maybe Gary was thinking.
I apoligize if someone thinks I was jumping on.

Richard

[Gary Curtis]

Excuse my clumbsiness. I always clumb around. This is my first day on this forum, and it's a bit of a learning curve to manage the posts.

You were right. I referred to a comment that was a reply to my same question posted on the WoodNet forum. Sorry.

The guys who own Felders and Knapps talk a lot about the sawing function changing the way they work. They throw around the adjectives, but don't get real specific. A Knapp owner told me last night that, even with a 9-foot sliding panel, he can't rip down a 4x8 of plywood completely. Just barely.

I just read Jim Tobin's Table Saw Magic book. He discusses procedures. Where you stand, where you put your hands (and don't put), how to position your weight. He provides the kind of answers I'm looking for, but the books is dated ( just by a few years) so that it doesn't take into account Format saws.

I'd be happy with the General, and it would sure exceed my feeble abilities. But I have the nagging suspicion that in 8 or 10 years, Format Saws will be everywhere, and I'll be saddled to technology that is very 1950s. Just consider how Sliding Compound MIter Saws swept upon us. It's positively compounding, especially if you just laid out some bucks for a Radial Arm Saw.

To do research, I went over and watched two operators mill through a 4-foot stack of 3/4 ply on an Altendorf slider at Anderson Plywood in Culver City. They ripped each board into 18 inch panels, and went through the whole stack in about 25 minutes. The guy feeding the panels never got closer than 3-feet from the kerf line. Not from the blade, but the line-of-fire had there been a kickback. He just grabbed a far corner of the ply, and walked forward, pulling the wood & slider through the stroke. The guy picking, grabbed the cutoffs after they cleared the blade to the right.

It was poetry in motion. Or, was it moetry in potion. I can't remember which.
They were too busy to talk to a looky-loo like me. But I'd sure like to hear a comparison with how they managed on a Powermatic in the old days.

Gary

[Andrew Ault]

Gary,

I see a right tilt Unisaw on Craigslist in LA for a grand. It has a 52" Beisemeyer and mobile base.

Buying a good used saw can allow more money for other tools (big bandsaw, anyone?) and...wood.

The Delta is not as nicely finished as a new General, but it will work very well. Keep an eye out for deals. There's a 12" Davis and Wells (big iron) saw for sale today in San Diego for $850.

Just some alternatives to consider.

Good luck and I hope you find exactly what you want!

- Andy

[Frank Pellow]

Gary, if you are considering the slider in order to manage large panels, why don't you investigate a Guided Circular Saw System (GCSS) instead? There are lots of threads on the benefits of such a system here on Saw Mill Creek.

I have a General 650 table saw and a Festool GCSS. Both are great, but I will never again cut a large panel on a table saw. :)

If you really decide that a sliding table is for you, you might think about the one sold by Laguna.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Excuse my clumbsiness. I always clumb around. This is my first day on this forum, and it's a bit of a learning curve to manage the posts.

You were right. I referred to a comment that was a reply to my same question posted on the WoodNet forum. Sorry.

The guys who own Felders and Knapps talk a lot about the sawing function changing the way they work. They throw around the adjectives, but don't get real specific. A Knapp owner told me last night that, even with a 9-foot sliding panel, he can't rip down a 4x8 of plywood completely. Just barely.

I just read Jim Tobin's Table Saw Magic book. He discusses procedures. Where you stand, where you put your hands (and don't put), how to position your weight. He provides the kind of answers I'm looking for, but the books is dated ( just by a few years) so that it doesn't take into account Format saws.

I'd be happy with the General, and it would sure exceed my feeble abilities. But I have the nagging suspicion that in 8 or 10 years, Format Saws will be everywhere, and I'll be saddled to technology that is very 1950s. Just consider how Sliding Compound MIter Saws swept upon us. It's positively compounding, especially if you just laid out some bucks for a Radial Arm Saw.

To do research, I went over and watched two operators mill through a 4-foot stack of 3/4 ply on an Altendorf slider at Anderson Plywood in Culver City. They ripped each board into 18 inch panels, and went through the whole stack in about 25 minutes. The guy feeding the panels never got closer than 3-feet from the kerf line. Not from the blade, but the line-of-fire had there been a kickback. He just grabbed a far corner of the ply, and walked forward, pulling the wood & slider through the stroke. The guy picking, grabbed the cutoffs after they cleared the blade to the right.

It was poetry in motion. Or, was it moetry in potion. I can't remember which.
They were too busy to talk to a looky-loo like me. But I'd sure like to hear a comparison with how they managed on a Powermatic in the old days.

Gary

Gary,
Well I guess I could not stay away too long :) go figure! If my "friend" post though I will be forced to respond, my post will be deleted.....and we will start all over again.....anyway back to your question I think. I will try to give you my -0.02 of useless info on a EFSTS from the perspective of someone that has gone from table top saw - Contractor saw - Cabinets saw - 8.5ft EFSTS - 10ft EFSTS.

First thing is they are not cheap! but nothing good ever is. The things that really make them worth it to me is they excell at everything in relation to the antiquated "American" style cabinet saw. They allow one to safely, easily, accurately and repeatedly cut both solid and panel stock. They picked up were the cabinet saw left off about 60 years ago and they are continue to improve. They now have ones that can be full CNC if needed or wanted.

Some of the key pionts I can first tell you is that they allow one to cut anything with their hands very far from the blade and the operator out of the line of fire. Typically the operator stands to the side of the machine, where the slider is (we would call this the side but the Europeans call this the front or operator position) and performs all work from there. One could crosscut using the "outrigger" table and crosscut fence (on the outrigger table) or use a smaller crosscut fence only for very small pieces. Some manufacturers offer a small crosscut or miter guage in addition to the main crosscut fence. The main crosscut fence can also be placed on the front of the outrigger table (the side furthest from the operator) - this position is typically used to cut sheetgoods or the fence could be placed to the back of the outrigger table (closest to the operator)- this position is typically used for solid stock. The main crosscut fence also has flip down stops (there is a ruler on the fence to gauge it) that provide accurate measurements. One could also use the rip fence on the main table as a guage also. Ripping can be done on the slider an number of ways: clamping a board to it (also very very useful for straight line ripping aka edge joining long boards), using jigs to reference off of the crosscut fence to set a distance from the blade, using both the crosscut stop on the main crosscut fence and on a smaller crosscut fence (set to the same distance form the blade) or of course just use the good ole' rip fence! So there are many many ways you can use the EFSTS for both croscutting ripping.

I probably bored you to death so i will stop for now. Oh by the way I have heard of Kufu but do not know anything about them. See i did not mention any manufacturers, submit a link to another website or promote and of my own products :)

[Ian Barley]

Gary

You don't say which model you are looking at in the Kufo range. All of the ones on their website look like machines which are available from certain suppliers here in the UK. They are OK machines with a few limitations.

- Maximum cut on the sliding table is about 4'. So if you are planning on processing panels you will be limited to that dimension.
- The rip fence is an aluminium extrusion held in place against an aluminium extrusion. I have a similar arrangement on my saw and it is not a recipe for extreme accuracy.
- Check for dado blade compatibility, This is a saw built primarily for the european market and I would not expect it to be able to take a dado bladeset

I agree strongly with Paul about lots of things ;) - not least that the sliding table saw has a huge amount to offer in terms of safe and accurate working. But please do not imagine for a moment that all sliding table saws are equal or that a saw of this type will perform anything like - even remotely like - the Altendorf you saw in use. The Altendorf is an aircraft carrier in comparison to the Kufo's dinghy.

A saw in the Kufo class will keep an enthusiastic hobbyist happy within the limitations of its size and capacities. You don't say what the dealer is asking for it. Based on the UK price it should be somewhere between $1500 -$2000 ar a guess? If it is much more than this I would recommend shopping around a bit longer. Alternative brands to look at would include Rojek. They are made in europe (czech republic) and offer some nicely built machines at fairly realistic prices.

[Frank Pellow]

Gary,
Well I guess I could not stay away too long :) go figure!
...

Glad to see you back Paul!

[Paul Canaris]

Laguna has one of their very nice TS table saws on sale for $2200, likely a demo unit, but with a full warranty. The TS have a lot of nice features from what I have seen, way ahead of the usual cabinet saws..

http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws.htm

This TS does not have a slider, however their TSS does, that one lists for $3,600...but I suspect you can get a few hundred off of that if you bargain.

[Richard Wolf]

WELCOME BACK, PAUL B. CRESTI.

Richard

[lloyd morris]

WELCOME BACK, PAUL B. CRESTI.

Richard

Ditto. Glad you are back.

Lloyd Morris

[Mac McAtee]

Gary, You are buying for a hobbyist shop. You say "lots of cabinet work". I think you will find what you think as lots of cabinets are not lots.

Say you are going to rebuild a kitchen in your house and a couple of bathrooms. You may have to center rip no more than 6 sheets of plywood. That is nothing and not worth spending the jack for a sliding table.

You are worried about buying a saw, and I don't know diddly about "Kufo", that would have old technology in 10 years. A common cabinet saw has been the standard for some 150 years since the Shakers figured out how to make a circular saw blade. They will never go out of style.

Take the suggestions to purchase a good used standard name brand 10" cabinet saw. Put some money into a high quality fence, Bessemer or Delta. Put some money into good quality blades and a dado set, Forrest comes to mind.

If this is your first major woodworking tool in your shop then you likely don't have a dust collection system that is sufficient to handle it. Put the left over money in a good dust collection set up. You will never regret that. I am talking about a system that has at least a 2 hp motor driving the blower and 6" pipe.

[Jack Easton]

I've been working on a format style sliding table saw for over twenty years in various cabinet shops and now my own one man operation. I would feel very uncomfortable on a plane table saw now. I can't imagine being without a slider. Even a small sized stroke of a slider would have a huge advantage over the alternative, and you don't have to waste time making sleds and jigs to approximate what a slider adds to the equation.

[Michael Sloan]

I'll second Jack's view from the amatuer perspective. I went from a contractor saw to an MM slider, and I won't ever go back. My slider is much safer and more accurate than a cabinet saw, and improves my productivity dramatically, which is important since I get so little shop time. The slider is well worth the extra money (for me), and personally would splurge again rather than going to a traditional saw.

I have no opinion on the Kufo, but did consider the Rojek before I bought my saw and thought that it looked like a pretty good deal.

Mike

P.S. If I ever went back to a Cabinet saw, I would go to one with a true riving knife (Sawstop) for safety reasons.

[Gary Curtis]

Ian

The model I was looking at is the 250-A. It is larger than the three other 250 models, and probably 50 lbs heavier. I could see that the slider was restricted in size. There is no dado capability.

The bearings and track mechanism on the slider looked quite strong and well-engineered. The price is about $2600. That's a lot less than the Rojek.

If I wanted to wait a long time, these guys who can afford the Mini-Max often move up to a Knapp or Felder, so I could pick up a used Rojek or MM. But that would still put me in the $4000+ range. That is too much money for the one machine. And, I am not earning a living at this.

My dad was a machinist, and so I really prefer precision equipment. But when this stuff is designed for a big commercial enterprise, a retired guy like me is pushed out by price. And I agree about the aircraft carrier dimensions of some equipment. I want something about the size of the Kufo.

Gary

[Paul B. Cresti]

Ian

The model I was looking at is the 250-A. It is larger than the three other 250 models, and probably 50 lbs heavier. I could see that the slider was restricted in size. There is no dado capability.

The bearings and track mechanism on the slider looked quite strong and well-engineered. The price is about $2600. That's a lot less than the Rojek.

If I wanted to wait a long time, these guys who can afford the Mini-Max often move up to a Knapp or Felder, so I could pick up a used Rojek or MM. But that would still put me in the $4000+ range. That is too much money for the one machine. And, I am not earning a living at this.

My dad was a machinist, and so I really prefer precision equipment. But when this stuff is designed for a big commercial enterprise, a retired guy like me is pushed out by price. And I agree about the aircraft carrier dimensions of some equipment. I want something about the size of the Kufo.

Gary

Gary,
I took a look at the Kufo on some site and it looks interesting. It seems to be along the same size as the MM SC3 , small Felder, Rojek, Laguna..... The thing that would make me wonder is the price. That is awfully low and there has to be a reason. I would make sure there is some source of adjustment for the slider and what type of trunion or if there is one on the saw. I would take a wild guess that the slider extrusion is coming out of some former Eastern Block country being as cheap as it is. I remember "hearing" that the short sliders Luguna had were from Bulgaria? and they were having serious warping issues. Now this is what I heard so take it for what it is worth. You mentioned you want quality (to a point becuase this is a hobby and I most definately understand that) but remember you do get what you pay for. Since you are not in a rush, check out the some of the higher priced companies and what shows they will be at in your area. You could pick up a show model for some considerable savings.

I have to chuckle a little :D at your "guys who sell MM or Rojek to go to Felder" though. First Rojek is no where near the MM line. Most pros would not make such a move (from MM to Felder) as it is "pretty" much a lateral move. A lot of the moves you here of are going to different machines types entirely. If a big pro does go up they are usually looking at SCM, Altendorf, Martin.....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Paul.....Thanks for posting! Your input is always valuable!

[Michael Ballent]

Welcome back Paul :D It's good to see you posting again, your posts are always great and offer great advise, especially on the Euro machines.

[Mark Singer]

Paul,

Great to have you back....I read each one of your posts and learn a lot! Hang in here!!!

[markus shaffer]

Gary,

Paul has given you really good advice here and I can concur with him. Looking at the Kufo Machine on their website, you're certainly not going to move plywood through it the way you saw it happen on an Altendorf. First off, it's just too small. I would be weary of such a machine at so low a price also. I'll be the first to admit that the Minimax and Felder lines are really expensive, but as Paul said, you get what you pay for.

Perhaps you are not in need of a top of the line full sized sliding panel saw, but if you really do plan on moving a lot of sheets of plywood, it may be worth thinking about a bigger machine. Consider the price of a new kitchen. Even going with the basic in-stock stuff from your local Home Depot or Lowes store will be fairly pricey. If you plan on building a lot of cabinet work, then the saw will pay for itself in the time you save and accuracy you'll get from using it.

You may look for posts by Charlie Plesums on this forum. He recently got a MM machine and has written extensively about it. Not necessarily the machine you'd want for yourself, but he's written a lot about his experience using it coming from a contractor saw.

In my personal experience, there is no way I'd go back to a standard cabinet saw unless it was a SawStop machine. Even then I'd perhaps reconsider my career instead. Having used a slider for almost 2 years now, I can say that it was the best purchase I could have made for my shop. The safety and accuracy are beyond compare to what I ever got out of my PM66. Sure, the extra bells and whistles are nice, but because this is how I make my living, it just made sense for me to get such a machine with the capabilites that it has. The machine I have may not be the one for you either, but the difference in how these machines work compared to the standard American style cabinet saw is like night and day.

The other option I would consider if I were you would be what Frank Pellow suggested. I used to break down sheet goods with a Festool saw before putting them through my PM66. It's not the fastest and not nearly as accurate as what I'm using now, but it got me by for several years. The only thing I would say along the lines of a standard cabinet saw is to consider the SawStop. Having a riving knife and that breaking mechanism to me would be well worth the price. I just met someone this past weekend who was missing a finger due to a tablesaw accident years ago. Medical bills for that sort of thing will cost far more than what you'd pay up front for a SawStop and quite possibly a Minimax or Felder as well. Having once stuck a finger through a spinning dovetail bit when I had no health insurance taught me a very valuable lesson about safety and the cost of medical care.

-Markus

[Paul Canaris]

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Gary</st1:place></st1:City>, I agree with Paul Cresti’s observation of quality and cost. If you need/want a slider that will easily rip a full 8’ length, your looking at a 10’ stroke unit. Keep in mind that the Altendorf and the Martin offerings function so well because their designer’s had few cost limitations to contend with as their design goals were tight accuracy, flexibility and durability; they are in the $30,000 and up price range. Nothing for less can touch them. Your budget pretty much leaves you in the better cabinet saw range, nothing shabby about that.....

Sliders present their own challenges as regards calibration and so on, most of the lesser price units can be difficult or near impossible to calibrate or keep calibrated.

[Gary Curtis]

All I can say is, WOW" Thanks guys.

I expressed the thought that I would be doing "lots of cabinets". Here's what I define lots. A new house with a big, big kitchen. No big deal.

A 5000 ft/sq aircraft hangar with wall to wall 9-foot cabinets and drawers to hole aircraft spare parts. I would estimate there being about 2400 linear feet of cabinets. Maybe 3200 feet.

Because of the cabinet height, tolerances on the machine will be important.

On either of my two machine choices - General or Kufo - , do you think the 3hp motor is adequate? I can get a 5hp if I order the General. Since I'll be living in a forest and will be doing a fair amount of resaw on my band saw, I would anticipate some wood that is fairly wet.

Gary Curtis

[Michael Sloan]

I can't imagine that you would have problems with a 3 HP saw if the primary use is plywood and cabinet stock. The only concern I would have would be if you intend to run the saw full time for long periods of time, or if you are processing much green wood in thicknesses more than 4/4. If so, then I might consider the upgrade to 5HP.

I hope you mean 240 linear feet of cabinets, instead of 2,400 ft. I would not want to build a half mile worth of tall cabinets without a full scale cabinet shop and a bunch of helpers. Frankly, 240 feet is a lot more than I would be able to build in my lifetime. I'm envious tho, I sure would like to have an aircraft hanger to outfit. I wouldn't mind the plane to go in it either.

Either way, that's a ton of cabinets, and I would certainly want a slider of some sort if I were taking on that task. I took a look at the Kufo website. The machine with the longer (71 inch) slider and the swing support arm looks interesting but it's difficult to tell the quality. If you are looking at the Kufo, check to see if it has a positive positioning lock at 90 degrees for the crosscut fence. You want to be able to take the crosscut sled and fence off, and put it back on without having to reset the 90 degree angle. Also make sure that the slider rides flat next to the blade throughout the entire range of travel for the slider. You don't want the front end of the slider to be above the main table and the back of the slider to be below the main table when measured right next to the blade. Also make sure the slider is flat from side to side and from front to back. Check slider flatness at both ends of the slider's range.

Mike

[Paul B. Cresti]

All I can say is, WOW" Thanks guys.

I expressed the thought that I would be doing "lots of cabinets". Here's what I define lots. A new house with a big, big kitchen. No big deal.

A 5000 ft/sq aircraft hangar with wall to wall 9-foot cabinets and drawers to hole aircraft spare parts. I would estimate there being about 2400 linear feet of cabinets. Maybe 3200 feet.

Because of the cabinet height, tolerances on the machine will be important.

On either of my two machine choices - General or Kufo - , do you think the 3hp motor is adequate? I can get a 5hp if I order the General. Since I'll be living in a forest and will be doing a fair amount of resaw on my band saw, I would anticipate some wood that is fairly wet.

Gary Curtis

Gary,
That is a lot of cabinets! IMHO I would not look at anything short of a 8.5ft slider. If money is the shear driving force here so be it. In that case I would go ahead with the General and get yourself a guided saw system. It is the easiest and cheapest solution to your problem or job. Something like the Festool stuff is accurate (to a point) but will be slow. A EFSTS solves all your problems is the easiest solution but the most expensive. If you were looking at doing normal solid wood projects or the occasional use of sheetgoods something like the Kufo size (as long as it is a quality machine!) will be better to use then a CS. Since you brought up the amount of work you will be doing IMHO you owe it to yourself to go check out some of the other manufacturers of EFSTS. Besides you could always sell it afterwards, even though I doubt you would after using one.

[Lee DeRaud]

I hope you mean 240 linear feet of cabinets, instead of 2,400 ft. I would not want to build a half mile worth of tall cabinets without a full scale cabinet shop and a bunch of helpers. Frankly, 240 feet is a lot more than I would be able to build in my lifetime. I'm envious tho, I sure would like to have an aircraft hanger to outfit. I wouldn't mind the plane to go in it either.That sounds about right: 5000sqft is about 70x75 feet...three walls of that would be something like 220ft of wall. (I'm assuming one wall is mostly doors.)

[John Bailey]

Thanks for coming back Paul. Even though I'm a Neanderthal by nature, I always learn from your posts. It's good to see the other side of the world.

John

[Gary Curtis]

Length from hangar door to back wall is about 70 feet. I'm looking at cabinets along the back wall, along the two side walls, and in about 6-8 rows extending from front to back.

There will be no plane stored inside. Cabinets will be two sided, except for those against the wall. And they'll be 9 feet tall. I know that the top shelf will be Swiss Alps tall, but we have a rolling platform ladder for the job.

Being industrial, the finish and fit don't matter much.

Thanks for all the advice to those who posted. And those of you who own Format saws, a special thanks. Paul Cresti, I've read your posts on the FOG (Felder owner's group and Mini-Max forum) since last December.

Your experience is invaluable.

Gary Curtis

[Jim Becker]

Yea...you have a "little" bit of work cut out for you!!

[Steve Rowe]

All I can say is, WOW" Thanks guys.

I expressed the thought that I would be doing "lots of cabinets". Here's what I define lots. A new house with a big, big kitchen. No big deal.

A 5000 ft/sq aircraft hangar with wall to wall 9-foot cabinets and drawers to hole aircraft spare parts. I would estimate there being about 2400 linear feet of cabinets. Maybe 3200 feet.

Because of the cabinet height, tolerances on the machine will be important.

On either of my two machine choices - General or Kufo - , do you think the 3hp motor is adequate? I can get a 5hp if I order the General. Since I'll be living in a forest and will be doing a fair amount of resaw on my band saw, I would anticipate some wood that is fairly wet.

Gary Curtis
Gary - 10 months ago I got a Felder combo with a 9.5' slider with 5.5 HP motors because I selected the variable speed option. I upgraded from a 3 HP Delta Unisaw. After using the Felder for a short period of time, there is no going back. I am a hobbiest and I don't let the price of the machinery I use hold me back as long as I will use it. When I bought the Felder, I just deferred the purchase a new car for another few years. Since I spend much more time in my shop than in the car, it seemed like a reasonable trade-off.

Whatever your reasons, you have narrowed your choices down to the Kufo and the General and to that extent I would consider the following:
(1) In all the years of owning a 3 HP cabinet saw (approx 20 yrs), there has never been a lack of power for anything I could ever throw at it so, from what you describe as your needs, the 3 HP appears sufficient. If you are a Tim Allen kind of guy - go for the 5 HP for bragging rights.;)
(2) I know nothing of the Kufo other than they made chip collectors for a long time. Their reputation for tablesaws and sliders appears to not be very well established. It may be a good system but, you could be stepping into uncharted territory.
(3) Most everyone has heard of General and they have a good reputation. I have not owned a General product.
(4) The Kufo slider table looks small for what you describe you intend to do with it. Assess the capabilities of the Kufo slider and decide if it meets your needs. If the tool doesn't do what you need it to do, then why buy one?
(5) Consider availability of accessories you may want for either saw. General accessories will widely available. With the Kufo - you may be forced to only get accessories from Kufo which may be very limited.

Many of us (to varying degrees) think that everyone should own the exact machinery we do as it builds our egos and re-confirms that we made the right decision. If I were in your shoes given the info you provided, I would probably opt for the General because I am a fairly risk adverse person. Consider the price you paid for all this free advice (including my own) and take it for what it's worth.

Steve

[Gary Sutherland]

When buying a machine I usually start by looking at used equipment. I may buy new in the end, but I often find great deals on used.

The following example is a saw that just sold for $3200 at IRS (not the tax man) auction. I can't comment on the quality of this particular machine as I haven't used one, or it's suitability for your particular circumstances, but it is a good example of things that are out there. A LOT of woodworking places are shutting down their manufacturing and going to outsourcing because they can't compete with China, which puts a lot of equipment into the market. I was at an auction the other day and a working, 5 story high, 400 hp dust cyclone with 1000 feet of ducting sold for $25. (Yeah, you have to MOVE it!!!)

Anyway, whatever you decide, I'd like to see some pics as you work through all those cabinets!!

Gary

Auctioneer's Note: Wow This is a Big One! 12' Capacity and Well Taken Care of!

HOLZHER SUPER SLIDE 1245 12’ SLIDING PANEL SAW
146” Stroke
49” Rip Capacity
7.5KW 230/460V Main Motor (approx)
.75KW 230/460V Score Motor
3000, 4000, 5000 & 8000 RPM
Digital Read-out on:
Tilting Arbor, Blade Height & RPM
15” x 126” Sliding Sled
30” x 43” Main Table
16” x 37” Aux. Table
21” x 26” Secondary Aux. Table
49”L Rip Fence
85”L Cross Cut Fence
14” Main Saw Blade
Over Head Guard
s/n 242/9-111
(1992)

[Joe Blankshain]

Welcome back Paul!!!!

Gary,

Does that IRS auction house have a website? Please advise and thanks
Joe

[Ken Salisbury]

Paul,

Welcome back ! !


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[Ian Barley]

Length from hangar door to back wall is about 70 feet. I'm looking at cabinets along the back wall, along the two side walls, and in about 6-8 rows extending from front to back.

There will be no plane stored inside. Cabinets will be two sided, except for those against the wall. And they'll be 9 feet tall. I know that the top shelf will be Swiss Alps tall, but we have a rolling platform ladder for the job.

Being industrial, the finish and fit don't matter much....
Gary Curtis

Gary
Without prying - what are you storing?
With that amount of work you need a big saw. Your money ain't gonna make it comfortable whichever choice you make. If your need is to create that much storage I would seriously consider looking for an alternative to building with the machinery you are suggesting. Have you priced materials and compared to the cost of, as an example, used industrial pallet racking? I hate to talk somebody out of woodworking at all but you are gonna feel like Sisyphus if you try this task with inadequate machinery.

[Gary Sutherland]

Joe...

Yes, it does. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to post it here or not, but it's http://www.irsauctions.com/index.asp?flash=7.

Or, Google for "Industrial Recovery Services" auctions.

Things change there almost daily as they run online auctions for many large plants, so check frequently. Some things there go high, but a lot goes cheaply. It's not "Ebay". Interestingly, what sell really well there are horizontal slot mortisers, which makes me think that some of them must be going to hobbiest shops. (As in, "I'd like to have one in mine").

Gary

[Gary Curtis]

The hangar is being built by my wife's brother. He will pay me well for building the cabinets. They are to house aviation parts of all sizes. Some as big as aircraft wings. Those would obviously go on racks.

You ought to see the drawers he's already obtained. They were purchased from KLM in the Netherlands and served the same purpose. Each cabinet is about 15 feet. 40" high, with 50 or so drawers each.

When I know how many cabinets I'll have to build, I may just ask the lumber mill to rip all the 4x8 sheets down to size. This one job will pay for my new shop and all the equipment in it.

But I don't plan on working much for others after this. By the way, my woodworking club is going out for a visit to Sam Maloof's studio near Los Angeles next month. If I can develop the skills, furniture is my objective.

Gary

[Rye Crane]

Gary,

I agree with Paul and Ian. I also have a european style format saw and love it. I bought the Rojek from Techmark Co in Little Rock, Arkansas. I did a through check of different saws and for the price this one seemed to be the best I could afford. In any case the sliders are so much safer, the riving knife, dust collection is superior, standing away from the action and the ability to use the slider with the shaper is really cool. Makes me almost feel ok using that beast.

Good luck with your purchase.

Rye Crane

[nic obie]

Irsauctions was good to me. That's where I found my MM SC-2 for under $1000. It had never been used. Was missing a few parts though, like the fence, mitre bar, clamp and accessory table. :rolleyes: I made everything but the clamp, so it worked out to be a really good deal.