REAXX review

[Warren Wilson]

I have been anticipating the release of the Bosch REAXX saw for months now -- and today came across my first review:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3MaaxL8nGzI

Now I hope to hear from some creekers who have bought one -- and a comparison between the REAXX and the SawStop Jobsite saw cannot be far behind.

[Lee Schierer]

Looking at the video on the Bosch website, it appears that Bosch simply powers the blade below the table top when the system is activated. The blade isn't harmed in the process. It also appears that they have a twin cartridge system that gives you a second activation and relatively simple reset. The unknown is what the price of the cartridge is and how that compares to sawstop.

[Curt Harms]

Won't swear to it but I watched a video with a Bosch rep who said that the cartridge will be around $100 for 2 shots. The video also showed an activation and reset and yes the reset was pretty simple.

[Von Bickley]

From what I have seen, I like the technology better than the SS.

[John Delrios]

Hmmmm.

Not sure if they are selling it yet, as they are in patent litigation with SawStop over infringement issues around the sensing system (which drops the blade.)

I'd go for the Bosch system myself though...saves on buying a new blade although...both are still cheaper that loosing finger(s)

J.

[johnny means]

I've said it before, I don't want saving the blade to be part of the equation. With the SawStop, if the trunnion should fail to drop for any reason, the blade still stops. If the Bosch should fail in the same manner, you're screwed. Blades are disposable, in my world they're all destined for the scrap bin. So why make any compromises in order to save one?

[Richard McComas]

Toolnut says there in stock.

https://www.toolnut.com/Bosch_GTS1041A_REAXX_Portable_Jobsite_Table_Saw_p/gts1041a-09.htm

[Carl Hunsinger]

I've said it before, I don't want saving the blade to be part of the equation. With the SawStop, if the trunnion should fail to drop for any reason, the blade still stops. If the Bosch should fail in the same manner, you're screwed. Blades are disposable, in my world they're all destined for the scrap bin. So why make any compromises in order to save one?

But that's not how the Sawtop works. It's the blade stopping (and only the blade stopping) that retracts the blade. If the blade doesn't stop, the blade won't retract. So it's not a redundant safety mechanism at all. If the blade drops, it's only because the spin has already stopped.

Carl

[John Schweikert]

Bosch email today says Reaxx is officially available to buy.

[Sean Tracey]

If you worry about the bosch compressed gas cylinders and mechanism failing to drop the spinning blade away from the user after being triggered, do you worry about the sawstop's mechanism failing to move the aluminum brake into the spinning blade after being triggered?

[Charles Lent]

Here's another Reaxx review on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MaaxL8nGzI

Charley

[Warren Wilson]

Thanks, Charley -- Bosch did say earlier they would ship at the beginning of June. (I've been following the lawsuit with interest).

I am hoping to see a side-by-side comparison of the two saws. For instance, I really like the way the SawStop does a full blade lift with one turn of the crank. On the other hand, I prefer the Bosch approach to saving blades! I like the safety feature, but fit, finish, precision, durability, and fitting the way the saw works to my own needs is just as important.

It's just good to see some real competition out there so that I HAVE a choice.

[johnny means]

Yes, of course. That's why I'm as careful as I can reasonably be. Every man-made system can fail. The next best thing is built in redundancy. My point is that more protection is better than less, and that I don't want less protection because it could save me a blade. Over the course of my career I will place myself at risk thousands of times, anything that increases my odds is a good thing, anything that lessens them is a bad thing.

[johnny means]

I understand how the system works. The scenario I'm talking about is is most likely some obstruction or other mechanical stoppage that prevents the blade from dropping. In this scenario the Bosch simply continues cutting. Also, on the event of kickback type accident where the hand is pulled back and into the blade, even a stopped blade could do plenty of damage. So while we're not telling about a redundant mechanism we are talking about redundant protections.

[John McClanahan]

I'm sure glad to see some competition for Sawstop, but I'm not ready to replace my PM 66 with a job site saw. I hope Bosch makes a good cabinet saw with this technoligy some day.


John

[Curt Harms]

I'm sure glad to see some competition for Sawstop, but I'm not ready to replace my PM 66 with a job site saw. I hope Bosch makes a good cabinet saw with this technoligy some day.


John

Or licenses the technology to an already established table saw manufacturer. I wonder though if Bosch was wise to bring this technology out on job site saws first. I don't know of stats on the subject but my gut says a lot of table saw injuries happen on job sites compared to shops. Production shops likely have well guarded and/or power fed saws. Job site saws are probably lucky to have a guard of any sort.

[Warren Wilson]

I have read that the members of the Power Tool Institute (composed of many of the big players: Milwaukee, DeWalt, Makita, Black & Decker, Hitachi, Bosch etc.) have refused to license the SawStop technology in the past. Perhaps they will be more willing to licence Bosch's technology.

SawStop put a big effort into forcing the issue by lobbying to legislate a requirement to include their technology in all saws by all manufacturers. That might have created some of the resistance in the past, or it might have been the price point.

[Erik Loza]

...I am hoping to see a side-by-side comparison of the two saws...

The Reaxx I saw in Las Vegas, last year, had substantially more robust components and better fit and finish than the SS jobsite unit.

Erik

[Daniel O'Neill]

.... SawStop put a big effort into forcing the issue by lobbying to legislate a requirement to include their technology in all saws by all manufacturers. That might have created some of the resistance in the past, or it might have been the price point.

Given the propensity to lobby & litigate I wonder if it was the price point. It's hard though. You have to protect your product. I had also heard that it could be something to the effect of all or nothing in terms of saw lineups. Why put it on one saw (maybe jobsite) and not others by the same manufacturer. This works for Bosch because they only have a jobsite (as far as I know). Perhaps as we hope there will be a day when that tech gets passed to other manufacturers. I do wonder though how the Bosch setup would last on a cast iron top. Wouldn't the top eventually crack from having the blade shot down over the years? I don't imagine this being an issue on SS because the forces contradict each other.

[Curt Harms]

Given the propensity to lobby & litigate I wonder if it was the price point. It's hard though. You have to protect your product. I had also heard that it could be something to the effect of all or nothing in terms of saw lineups. Why put it on one saw (maybe jobsite) and not others by the same manufacturer. This works for Bosch because they only have a jobsite (as far as I know). Perhaps as we hope there will be a day when that tech gets passed to other manufacturers. I do wonder though how the Bosch setup would last on a cast iron top. Wouldn't the top eventually crack from having the blade shot down over the years? I don't imagine this being an issue on SS because the forces contradict each other.

I suspect SawStop is not real popular among other manufacturers. Bosch has a history of licensing their technology to other manufacturers and hasn't antagonized the rest of the industry so it seems like Bosch has a better shot of being adopted by others. As far as the cast top, perhaps some re-engineering/reinforcement would be in order.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'd like to see a comparioson on the response time of the REAXX vs SawStop's. Such info. is not available from Bosch so far. The response time has an impact on the cuts. So far we have all seen the kind of cut that could happen with SawStop -- if you haven't go to its Save Finger page and see the pictures. Would a cut under Bosch's technology be smaller or deeper? We don't know and the response time would give us some indication in the absence of the field experience at this point.

It's a good thing to see this new development and whether someone has infringed the patent rights of another inventor, it'd be a matter for the courts.

Simon

[John TenEyck]

Or licenses the technology to an already established table saw manufacturer. I wonder though if Bosch was wise to bring this technology out on job site saws first. I don't know of stats on the subject but my gut says a lot of table saw injuries happen on job sites compared to shops. Production shops likely have well guarded and/or power fed saws. Job site saws are probably lucky to have a guard of any sort.

I think you are right that more TS accidents happen on job sites, but I don't think it's because production shops necessarily have guards on theirs. Well, maybe production shops do, certainly the ones large enough that they have to follow OSHA regs, but the average small shop and hobbiest doesn't. Every shop I go into, I never see a guard, and often not even a splitter. I have a very good friend, PhD and very thoughtful guy, completely bareback TS. I've mentioned it to him many times to no avail. And most of the articles you read in magazines, too, have articles where the guy's TS are shown in one or more pictures and there is rarely a guard.

Common sense plus using the splitters, riving knives, and guards that have been around for decades would prevent most injuries. But since people just won't use them, SawStop, Bosch, and whoever follows are going to prevent a lot of mangled fingers/hands.

John

[mreza Salav]

I'd like to see a comparioson on the response time of the REAXX vs SawStop's. Such info. is not available from Bosch so far. The response time has an impact on the cuts. So far we have all seen the kind of cut that could happen with SawStop -- if you haven't go to its Save Finger page and see the pictures. Would a cut under Bosch's technology be smaller or deeper? We don't know and the response time would give us some indication in the absence of the field experience at this point.

It's a good thing to see this new development and whether someone has infringed the patent rights of another inventor, it'd be a matter for the courts.

Simon

Good point. I hope if they claim whatever the response time is it is not like their "Powerful 15-amp 4.0-hp max motor" nonsense.

[Rich Riddle]

Technically they shipped on June 1, but mine hasn't arrived at the local terminal.

[Rich Riddle]

I wonder though if Bosch was wise to bring this technology out on job site saws first. I don't know of stats on the subject but my gut says a lot of table saw injuries happen on job sites compared to shops. Production shops likely have well guarded and/or power fed saws. Job site saws are probably lucky to have a guard of any sort.I didn't realize that Bosch produced a table saw that wasn't a job site saw. Do they now produce contractor or cabinet saws?

[Warren Wilson]

Regarding response times:

Although he does not compare the response time numbers, Izzy Swan does the same weiner test as SawStop did in their promos, so it seems a fair comparison. (He used a German sausage first, but could not discern any mark so he substituted a Polish sausage -- apparently because it was closer to the size of his fingers. :))

In fact, he paints the sausage with bluing spray to be able to find the mark on the skin -- and he feeds it into the blade at much more aggressive rate than I saw with the SawStop ads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MaaxL8nGzI

I understand Bosch adapted their existing technology for triggering air bag deployment to this use. It seems to me they use something similar to a .22 powder charge to initiate the drop.

Ironically, having the two saws to compare makes me more liable to buy one or the other.

[Warren Wilson]

And I just saw the Fine Woodworking video on the saw -- amazing technologies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wwtj2M16vw

[Curt Harms]

I didn't realize that Bosch produced a table saw that wasn't a job site saw. Do they now produce contractor or cabinet saws?


Not that I know of, at least in the N. American market. Bosch has a history of licensing its technology though. Remember that Bosch is much more than woodworking tools & machines.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think you are right that more TS accidents happen on job sites, but I don't think it's because production shops necessarily have guards on theirs.
From my experience on job sites, I'd say accidents happen for many reasons not at all related to a deficiency of a given tool. There can be a lot of noise, constant distractions and even those in a supervisory capacity barking out the order to hurry up. Some companies, usually the bigger ones, can be very focused on safety, but other companies only want production, even if it means risking an accident on the job. I have had that discussion more than once.

But in my 35 years working construction, I cannot remember hearing of even one table saw related injury. Of course, I worked for electrical contractors all my life but if there was a serious injury on the jobsite, I would have heard about it. The lack of TS related injuries was not so much because of good safety practices but rather because there weren't many table saws found on the job.

[Joe Spear]

There was that major suit a few years ago in which a jury found some manufacturer liable for injuries suffered by a worker on a jobsite and awarded him a ton of money. I don't remember the brand of saw, but the verdict was rendered because, the plaintiff's side said, the saw maker should have used SawStop technology so that the injury couldn't happen. That was after years of failure of the SawStop inventors to get other manufacturers to pay for their technology. Of course, even though it was shown that the worker who was injured was quite negligent in the way he was using the saw, it didn't seem to matter to the jury.

[Simon MacGowen]

Regarding response times:

Although he does not compare the response time numbers, Izzy Swan does the same weiner test as SawStop did in their promos, so it seems a fair comparison. (He used a German sausage first, but could not discern any mark so he substituted a Polish sausage -- apparently because it was closer to the size of his fingers. :))

In fact, he paints the sausage with bluing spray to be able to find the mark on the skin -- and he feeds it into the blade at much more aggressive rate than I saw with the SawStop ads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MaaxL8nGzI

I understand Bosch adapted their existing technology for triggering air bag deployment to this use. It seems to me they use something similar to a .22 powder charge to initiate the drop.

Ironically, having the two saws to compare makes me more liable to buy one or the other.

For a fair and objective comparison, the tests must be done using the type of saw (contractor vs contractor, not a professional model which most SawStop demos are done on), the same type of blade and ideally the same feeding rate, etc. Apple to apple, that is. And the response time is an apple to apple comparison.

Over time, of course, when the Reaxx has the feedback from its users (with photos of the injured fingers), we will have a better idea of the cuts.

Simon

[Rich Riddle]

From my experience on job sites, I'd say accidents happen for many reasons not at all related to a deficiency of a given tool. There can be a lot of noise, constant distractions and even those in a supervisory capacity barking out the order to hurry up. Some companies, usually the bigger ones, can be very focused on safety, but other companies only want production, even if it means risking an accident on the job. I have had that discussion more than once.I heard a foreman on a house built by union labor (only one I ever heard of using union labor for a house) yelling, "square and plumb I don't need, what I need is speed, speed, speed." This was a three million dollar house. Bet the owners loved this guy.

[Curt Harms]

I'd like to see a comparioson on the response time of the REAXX vs SawStop's. Such info. is not available from Bosch so far. The response time has an impact on the cuts. So far we have all seen the kind of cut that could happen with SawStop -- if you haven't go to its Save Finger page and see the pictures. Would a cut under Bosch's technology be smaller or deeper? We don't know and the response time would give us some indication in the absence of the field experience at this point.

It's a good thing to see this new development and whether someone has infringed the patent rights of another inventor, it'd be a matter for the courts.

Simon

It'd also be nice to see a test on both saws that more nearly simulates a real life finger-saw blade encounter. A sausage moving at maybe 1"/sec. or less might be a nice sales demo but does not accurately represent a kickback moving a hand into the blade for example.

[Rich Riddle]

I have a feeling to determine the exact differences you will need high-speed film to measure it. One will be able to approximate the feed rate, but with a human pushing, there is likely at least minor variation. The key will be from the time the sausage hits the blade with approximately the same feed rate. One thing that doesn't need scientific analysis is that the Bosch will prove much less expensive per firing.

[mreza Salav]

I have a feeling to determine the exact differences you will need high-speed film to measure it. One will be able to approximate the feed rate, but with a human pushing, there is likely at least minor variation. The key will be from the time the sausage hits the blade with approximately the same feed rate. One thing that doesn't need scientific analysis is that the Bosch will prove much less expensive per MIS-firing.

Corrected that for you. For real flesh contact we don't know yet. Time will tell how good it is.

[johnny means]

But, why would we need that now that these saws come with real riving knives?

[Tom Ewell]

Riving knives help prevent kickback during normal operations, the SS stuff is for prevention of flesh cutting during kickback and 'other' mishaps when someone puts their body parts too close to the spinning blade.

[Patrick Curry]

Anyone know if Bosh has plans to either license the safety technology or make it 'open source' (not sure of the correct term for manufacturing) for other manufacturers? It would be nice to see the system on cabinet saws in a few years Grizzly cabinet saws more specifically

[Curt Harms]

Anyone know if Bosh has plans to either license the safety technology or make it 'open source' (not sure of the correct term for manufacturing) for other manufacturers? It would be nice to see the system on cabinet saws in a few years Grizzly cabinet saws more specifically

I've not heard anything but the Bosch tech has just hit the market. Another thought is that SawStop's patents must be close to expiring, unless Gass has a plan to extend them somehow. If Bosch's tech is seen as equivalent to SawStop, their activation mechanism doesn't trash the blade.

[scott spencer]

Good looking jobsite saw. The technology obviously works, the fence looks good, it seemed to have ample power, and it even has some reasonable operating space in front of the blade....an area that most jobsite saws fall woefully short on.

[Mike Henderson]

I've not heard anything but the Bosch tech has just hit the market. Another thought is that SawStop's patents must be close to expiring, unless Gass has a plan to extend them somehow. If Bosch's tech is seen as equivalent to SawStop, their activation mechanism doesn't trash the blade.
I don't know of any easy way to extend the life of a patent. Most companies continue to patent features that are likely to be added to the technology but the basic patent expires at the end of the term. I don't know when SawStop's original patent(s) expire. Most patents have a life of 17 years after issue, if I recall correctly.

Mike

[I did a bit of research on the web and it appears that the patents may expire about 2021 to 2025. Still a fair amount of life left.]

[John Schweikert]

U.S. Patents are 17 years from issue date or 20 years from filing date.

[Marty Schlosser]

So... the obvious question is when is Bosch going to release a cabinet saw?

[Ronald Blue]

I doubt that they ever do, but I look for them to make the technology available to other companies offering cabinet saws. That is what Bosch does, license their technology to others.

[Erik Loza]

I doubt that they ever do, but I look for them to make the technology available to other companies offering cabinet saws. That is what Bosch does, license their technology to others.

My feeling as well... ^^^

Erik

[Patrick Testerman]

As I recall, Steve Gass, the inventor of Sawstop first attempted to license his technology to existing table saw companies but was met with indifference - either from cost concerns or because having a safety technology on some of their saws would open up a company to liability for their other saws. He reportedly had a tentative agreement with Ryobi, but the company wanted him to assume all liability for any malfunction or other deficiency in the mechanism, even though Ryobi was going to be manufacturing the mechanism, and talks eventually fell through.

At at this point Gass founded his own company and began manufacturing saws himself. At some point, he began lobbying for tighter safety rules to require the technology. Not surprisingly, the industry and its lobbying group fought this quite hard. Again, there are those who say it was strictly a financial opposition and others who argue that they opposed it due to liability concerns. Regardless, they eventually defeated the proposal, but in the process agreed to start making riving knives, blade guards and other safety equipment standard.

At this point, I don't know if Gass is still open to licensing his technology or not. If he is, and cost was truly the concern by the other manufacturers, presumably having two similar technologies would drive the cost down. I have a suspicion that the cost argument was simply a ruse and that the real concern of the saw manufacturers was one of legal liability, in which case we are no more likely to see a Powermatic saw with a Bosch mechanism than with a Sawstop mechanism. Someone mentioned a successful lawsuit in an earlier post. If that is true, that would likely do more to make the technology available than anything else.

The last I read, the legal issues between Bosch and Sawstop were ongoing, so the long term availability of the Reaxx saw may still be in question. I haven't used or even seen in person the Reaxx saw. I did own a Bosch 4100 saw and while it was in general a good saw, I had a difficult time keeping the riving knife and to a lesser extent the fence alligned with the blade. The Irving knife was a major issue, since it would move out of alignment with the blade on a regular basis and cause the wood to either bind between the knife and the fence, or pull the wood away from the fence and towards the blade, both of which were safety concerns. because of this and the fact that a hand injury could be financially devistating to me I sold the saw and purchased a saw stop cabinet saw. It's not a fair comparison, but there is no comparison and I couldn't be happier.

[Clint DeBoer]

For what it's worth, we actually put a hand into the saw this week (not a hot dog) in a controlled test. I don't recommend anyone else do this, but we felt we had taken enough precautions in our setup. Figured this was a newsworthy way to resurrect this thread...

Putting Your Hand in a Saw Blade – Bosch ReaXX Test Video

[David T gray]

For what it's worth, we actually put a hand into the saw this week (not a hot dog) in a controlled test. I don't recommend anyone else do this, but we felt we had taken enough precautions in our setup. Figured this was a newsworthy way to resurrect this thread...

Putting Your Hand in a Saw Blade – Bosch ReaXX Test Video

do it without the 2x4 then its newsworthy

[Mike Henderson]

For what it's worth, we actually put a hand into the saw this week (not a hot dog) in a controlled test. I don't recommend anyone else do this, but we felt we had taken enough precautions in our setup. Figured this was a newsworthy way to resurrect this thread...

Putting Your Hand in a Saw Blade – Bosch ReaXX Test Video

The problem with the way he did the test is that even if the saw didn't have a brake technology and you did it exactly the same way (a quick slap), you'd likely wind up with about the same cut on his hand.

I don't want to encourage anyone to stick their hand into a saw blade but it would be interesting to see what the damage is when someone hits a ReaXX blade by accident.

Mike

[Nick Stokes]

Ouch...

(10 char)

[Frederick Skelly]

The problem with the way he did the test is that even if the saw didn't have a brake technology and you did it exactly the same way (a quick slap), you'd likely wind up with about the same cut on his hand.

Yup. Seems like this is just some dude we've never seen here before hawking his website. And, I didnt see any clear indication of how fast the Bosch reacted - would he have gotten such a light cut if he lowered the blade some and took away the 2x4? I have no way of judging that because the test was setup for sensationalism, not to get meaningful test data. Some guys will do anything to get hits on their websites. Speaking only for myself, the lack of integrity in this test makes me suspicious of all their other tool tests.

[Larry Frank]

That test would make me think if the saw safety really works well enough. What saved his hand was the 2x4.

My summary....another not too bright person.