Cutting Board Question

[Mark R Webster]

About 3 years ago I made a large cutting board for a local caterer. I used hard “rock” maple, gluing 1” thick, 3/4” strips side to side with Titebond III “water-proof” glue. After milling the strips to just over the correct size, I let them sit for a few days to let them “move”. I then final milled the strips making sure all the surfaces met correctly especially near the ends. “I am aware of the technique of planing a hollow to be sure that the ends have tension for tight joints.” Once the board was completed, I saturated with hot mineral oil several times. The caterer has asked me to make him another board and I asked for the first board back so I could duplicate it for him. I noticed several of the glue joints had failed near the ends. I asked him if he had periodically oiled the board and he admitted he had not. So for the past 3 years it has been washed over and over but never oiled. Did the joints fail because of something I did or didn’t do?....or with repeated washings and no ongoing maintenance one should expect the glue joints to inevitably fail…. especially at the ends. Thanks

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'd suspect the (lack of)oil.
I have two cutting boards that I made at the same time.
My son has one & it never got oiled.
I have the other and it gets oiled regularly.

His lasted about a year then fell apart.

Mine looks like new.

[Dan Hahr]

You don't need a hollow when gluing up cutting boards, or a sprung joint. With all the movement involved in an end grain board, aim for dead flat and square and perfect clamping pressure. It is hard to say if it your fault as the owner could have subjected it to serious abuse.

Dan

[Mark Blatter]

I built a couple of cutting boards about 8 years ago using hard maple and just regular wood glue. All of them are still in great shape, no splits or warping. One of the sat on the counter in water and warped, but once it dried out it flattened out.

The difference is that I used a product called Good Stuff. A link is below. It is food safe and is a durable finish. I put on a couple of coats 8 years ago, and haven't done anything with the cutting boards since.

http://www.butcherblock.com/product/emmets-good-stuff-2/

[Barry McFadden]

I've made quite a few cutting boards and have always used Gorilla Glue on them and finished with a food safe oil from Ikea or Lee Valley. I have used 2 of them in the kitchen for over 5 years and have never re-oiled them. Sometimes they sit in water for a bit when I'm washing them and I have never had a joint fail. I see people that have bought one from me and they also say all joints are good. I personally think the Gorilla Glue is the reason.

[larry senen]

Many years ago i used resorcinol glue. It was the only one that was rated fully waterproof. I guess time marches on.

[glenn bradley]

I have many boards in use by friends and family. No sprung joints, no voo-doo required. The only board that showed signs of distress was the one not oiled . . . ever.

[Mike Cutler]

I doubt it was anything you did. Understand that this board was being used in "business" application, and most cutting boards will never see the use/abuse that board has seen. It's probably gone through more use cycles in three years being used by a Caterer, than it will ever see in a home kitchen.
That said, now that you know that your next board for him is going to see the same abuse, I would change your adhesive, and finish, to something a little more robust, and requiring less maintenance. He's obviously not going to do it.;)

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks everyone for your responses, Mike... do you have a recommendation for an adhesive other than Titebond III Ultimate "waterproof". I was considering Mark's Good Stuff as a finish... which looks pretty good.

[Mark W Pugh]

Thanks everyone for your responses, Mike... do you have a recommendation for an adhesive other than Titebond III Ultimate "waterproof". I was considering Mark's Good Stuff as a finish... which looks pretty good.

Looks like Barry's post (#5) could be a place to start for adhesive. Gorilla Glue.

[John T Barker]

I go along with the fellow who suggested imagining what a pro kitchen does. I think law dictates that food prep surfaces and serving vessels go though those ultra hot dishwashers. Even if they didn't do that it may have been soaked for while in hot soapy water...not good. I go over mine with a soapy sponge and occasionally a chlorine wipe.

On future builds I wouldn't hollow the belly of the joint. I think that would cause it to come apart.

[Mark R Webster]

Another thanks for all the suggestions and info. :)

[Yonak Hawkins]

Considering the usage, on the next one I believe I would use a mechanical means of holding it together.

[Wes Ramsey]

One my church's kitchens has a Boos Brothers cutting board that was in plum awful shape. It also never gets oiled and most of the joints are split at the ends. I took it home and planed it back out flat and gave it a good oil soak, but unless it gets maintained regularly it will eventually fail. Not much you can do if the owner won't take care of it. On the other hand, a business owner probably doesn't expect his equipment to last forever and accepts that it will eventually need to be replaced.

I'd meet him in the middle and try a different glue as others suggested and maybe give him a sample of the oil you treat them with. For the few I've made I've always asked the owners to bring them back to me if they show the slightest inking of joint failure so I can fix before it gets too bad. You don't want food getting in those joints. Haven't had one come back yet, but I've provided a small sample of my oil and wax mix with each of the boards. Hopefully they're using it :)

[mreza Salav]

I have made several cutting boards (all using Titebound III) and the oldest one (that we use daily) has had joint fails at a few places near the edge. I oiled it maybe twice a year.
Another one that I made had a lot of stress when moved from one city to another that the a few of the wood pieces just split open (they had no crack in them before, I'm sure).
I think a cutting board goes through a lot of stress due to moisture change. I would reconsider using a different glue for the next one.

[Lonnie Gallaher]

If I were concerned about a laminated cutting board de-laminating, I would thru bolt the ends and the center with stainless steel all thread bolts.

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks everyone for your responses, Mike... do you have a recommendation for an adhesive other than Titebond III Ultimate "waterproof". I was considering Mark's Good Stuff as a finish... which looks pretty good.

Epoxy and resorcinol would be two good choices. I think someone else mentioned Gorilla glue.
General Finishes makes a Salad Bowl finish that has worked well for me. I'm not familiar with Mark's Good Stuff, but I'm sure it's every bit as good as the General Finishes line. I see it's food contact approved also. ;) You'd still need to seal the end grain first with a good flood coat. It's overkill, but,,,,,;)

[Mark R Webster]

So.. on a few posts now, other glues have been suggested. Is that because of personal positive experiences with those glues, ie Gorilla, resorcinol etc. or because there is something inferior about Titebond III? Again... I appreciate the discussion!

[Mark R Webster]

I checked out some of the glues mentioned and noticed that Gorilla glue comes in several forms, one of which is Gorilla "Wood" glue apparently a PVA glue. Is this as strong and waterproof as the original formula? I have never used Gorilla glue, I was always been concerned about the squeeze out after it dries. Is it difficult to remove once hardened? I also noted that resorcinol can have a shorter shelf life and that many have moved away from it towards epoxy. I don't know if they provide the date made on the containers or if you just have to wing it.

[Barry McFadden]

I checked out some of the glues mentioned and noticed that Gorilla glue comes in several forms, one of which is Gorilla "Wood" glue apparently a PVA glue. Is this as strong and waterproof as the original formula? I have never used Gorilla glue, I was always been concerned about the squeeze out after it dries. Is it difficult to remove once hardened? I also noted that resorcinol can have a shorter shelf life and that many have moved away from it towards epoxy. I don't know if they provide the date made on the containers or if you just have to wing it.

I use "original" Gorilla Glue....looks like thick maple syrup...as the bottle says I moisten the edges to be glued with water first then glue and clamp. As you say there is quite a bit of squeeze out as it activates and dries. I wait until it is fairly hard then run a chisel along the joints and it comes off fairly easy. Then I run the board through the planer'
I have not used Titebond or the other glues mentioned because I have never had a reason to. Gorilla Glue is, in my opinion, the best glue for anything that is going to get wet.

[John TenEyck]

I've used TB III in outdoor applications and never had a failure. Summer, Winter, rain, snow, sunshine, not one joint has failed. I do believe that resorcinol is a a superior glue for wet applications, but TB III is more than up the task of a cutting board unless it's going threw a dishwasher. I'd vote that the sprung joints was a bad idea. It could be that no wood board will withstand the abuse it will get by a caterer for too long. But if I were to make one for him I'd use straight joints and resorcinol glue because it is waterproof and it can withstand much higher temperature.

John

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Barry
Mark

[Mike Cutler]

Mark

I've done a fair amount of work through the years on sail boats, and "stink potters". Epoxy is what I learned to use many years ago in marine applications. I'm just more comfortable with it, and know how it works. I rarely use anything other than epoxies. Resorcinol is good too, but a little messy and can leave a slight colored line at the joint.
Titebond makes high quality products, there are no disputes on that front. I just think that the particular" end user" for your boards may require something a little more robust. especially the finish.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Mike, Can you give me a link/example for the type of epoxy you would recommend? The only type I am familiar with is the type that comes in the tubes in small amounts you find at the hardware store. It would take quite a bit for a cutting board this size. Thanks

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks Mike, Can you give me a link/example for the type of epoxy you would recommend? The only type I am familiar with is the type that comes in the tubes in small amounts you find at the hardware store. It would take quite a bit for a cutting board this size. Thanks

Mark
System Three makes a line of epoxies for wood working. The General Epoxy is very suitable, but I'm partial to the T-88 product. I seems a little more forgiving.
https://systemthree.com/collections/woodworking

Be sure to read through the "Epoxy Book". Print it out of you can. There are a few things to know and understand about epoxy for optimum result. Biggest tip: Don't use a lot of clamping pressure. Just enough to bring the material(s) together. The clamping pressure required for Titebond would be way too much for epoxy and result in an epoxy starved joint.
https://systemthree.com/blogs/epoxy-files/83509508-about-the-system-three-epoxy-book

West Systems makes a very nice product for Marine application. For wood working the 105 resin and 208 hardener work well. I've used the 403 and 404 fillers with good results.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/product-selection-chart/

West's website has a ton of info.

These two product lines are widely available both online, and in brick and mortar stores.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Mike!!
Mark

[Phil Mueller]

Mark, check out the care and maintenance instructions from the John Boos cutting board company. You'll note that even this commerical cutting board company (using whatever glue they use) warns not to submerge in water, not to put in the dishwasher, oil every month, etc.

You'll also note they publish a "how to repair your damaged board" page...every problem of wood failure - checking, cracking, warping, spliting - is a result of not oiling enough.

My point is, I don't think the glue is the problem...Titebond is fine...and so are all the others mentioned here. But if it's not maintained well, it's going to fail sooner or later.

[Wayne Lomman]

Go with Mike cutter's comments. Tb3 is way over rated for wet area and outdoor work. It's a good place but that's all.

[Mark R Webster]

Good info! Thanks Phil and everyone else that has responded:)
Mark

[Grant Wilkinson]

Mark: Are your boards end grain or side grain? Wood movement is very different between the two.

[Robby Tacheny]

I agree with Barry about Gorilla glue. Its a moisture cured glue, so it "likes" moisture and is supposed to be 100% waterproof. If you use it, keep in mind that it expands as it cures, so you don't necessarily spread it on thick like you would Titebond. When you apply it, wet the joints with a damp cloth after clamping. Also, use gloves. Since your skin has moisture in it, it will not come off until your skin does. It is sort of like super glue on your hands.

I also agree that you have to take care of cutting boards for them to last. You can't let them get wet for very long before water soaks in, unless they are oiled well. You don't have to "baby" cutting boards, but you do need to keep them away from standing water except to wash them, and then immediately dry.

I would guess that in a restaurant kitchen environment, the cutting board gets washed/wiped many times per day and is used daily. Cutting boards used in a restaurant kitchen probably have 30x or more wear compared to a normal kitchen cutting board. Plastic based cutting boards can be run through the dishwasher and submerged in water. If it were me, I use plastic cutting boards general food preparation in a restaurant environment except for cutting bread or for presentation purposes.

Robby

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Grant I will be gluing up side grain to side grain. The user surface of the board will be side grain. No end grain to end grain joints.
Mark

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Robby!