I made some new Bowl shaped things!

[Steve Russell tucker]

Hello Everyone ! I hope all is well with all of you Ive been busy but I had a few things I wanted to show off I guess ! 338603338604 Its cherry with that maple accent cross thing ( not sure the correct name for this type of thing) I finished with Ob's shine juice and a few coats of wipe on poly as usual I think my sanding sucks I just cant seem to get that part right I start at 100 and go all the way through the grits up to 2000 and still yet I have that ....Look of crappy sanding.. anyway thanks for looking:)

[daryl moses]

You have been busy! Your coming along nicely.
One reason you are having problems with the sanding part is because you aren't getting all the tool marks out. Perhaps try to make that last cut a "smoothing" cut. In other words try to make the entire cut even. The dark marks I am seeing are depressions in the bowl where you have cut deeper. It would take lots and lots of sanding to get them out even with the courser grits.

[Steve Russell tucker]

Thank you sir I will for sure do that I need to get a better way to sharpen the cheap set of tools I own ,I'm working on it , But you are absolutely right I need way more even cuts at the end ,sharper tools ,more control etc.etc Thank you again for the insight I appreciate it.

[John K Jordan]

Nice progress!

One thing I do which helped a lot with my tool control, although it takes longer. Instead of being in a hurry to hog out a shape I try to make each cut a practice cut, especially when I start approaching the final shape. Try to make smooth continuous curves. If you lose the cut, back up and "feel" for it again. By the time you make a bunch of practice cuts you have a lot of practice with that curve and suddenly you are done!

I do the same thing when turning a taper or curve with the skew or other spindle tool - lots and lots of practice cuts. Sometimes I change tools and make some practice cuts with the new tool just to see how it responds. Sometimes I'll make v-grooves, beads, and coves where non will be in the end, just for practice, then cut them away. (BTW, many experts agree - if you want to learn good control do it by turning spindles, then use it on the bowls.)

Watch for tearout, impossible to sand away. Learn shear scraping with the wing of the gouge if you haven't - it will remove a lot of tool marks.

You mentioned needing a better way to sharpen. The old adage is "if you can't sharpen, you can't turn." Sharp tools are the most important thing for good technique and good surfaces. What are you using now for sharpening?

JKJ

[Brice Rogers]

I like your criss-cross accent woods. I've got a couple of platters that have structural cracks in them and which might be a good candidate for something like this.

I appreciate the comments of the previous posters on getting smooth cuts. I am learning too and keep working on getting smoother cuts.

Some things that have started to work for me:
1. Real Sharp tools. (I use a diamond hone in between sharpenings)
2. If I can't get the surface quite smooth enough with a shear scrape from a bowl gouge, I'll sharpen (make a fresh burr) a thick/heavy round-nosed scraper and make some light wispy shavings.
3. At 120 grit, I have started to remove the bowl/platter from the chuck. I do the remaining sanding by hand. I find that when I "chuck sand" that I always get circular rings. So, if I take the piece off of the chuck and sand with the grain that the circular marks go away much faster.
4. I don't move on to the next finer grit of sandpaper until I get rid of all of the scratches from the previous grit. I recall that robo hippy may have a video where he mentions this.

[Allan Ferguson]

John J. posted some excellent advise. You have the time to refine those cuts and it will surely pay off in the end.

[John K Jordan]

4. I don't move on to the next finer grit of sandpaper until I get rid of all of the scratches from the previous grit.

That's an excellent point which shouldn't need stated but unfortunately has to be.

I've added one additional step to this the last few years. (BTW, I rarely sand with power). If I'm hand sanding with any grit, say, 320, before I move to 400 I sand perpendicular (or at an angle) to the 320 scratches with the same 320 paper until the first 320 scratches are gone. My theory is if I can't remove all the scratches that exist at that point with 320 paper, some of them are deeper scratches that I'm NEVER going to get out with 400 and finer paper. This method eliminates the unpleasant surprise of getting to finer grits only to find scratches accidentally left from coarse paper.

I do this with spindles too, usually sanding while rotating slowly, then stop the lathe and sand with the grain where possible (or diagonally with rolled up paper in tight coves.) I do this for every grit I use. Fortunately, with good, dense wood and sharp tools and clean cuts you can usually start with 400 or 600, at least on smaller work.

Those who do all their sanding with the work spinning by mindlessly moving "through the grits" sometimes have to live with the horrible circular scratches or redo a lot of work. (IMO)

I also like to take the work out of the lathe and sit in a comfortable chair with good light while hand sanding. I can see far better that way than bending over the lathe. I do leave the piece in the chuck in case I have to put in back on the lathe. (I also find a quick wipe with naptha or something else that dries quickly will sometimes make hidden scratches visible.)

Also, I've mentioned this before, but I've switched to using small, curved card scrapers to remove tool marks instead of power sanding. This is with the lathe running slowly or off, depending on the place on the work and the tool marks. As I got better at tool control, I found fewer tool marks that needed work. Duh! There is absolutely no better way to remove the little bump or circular ripples in the center of a bowl or platter and leave a perfect curve or flat. Another big advantage of cutting down on sanding (besides the obvious issue of dealing with the clouds of lung-damaging dust) is crisp detail is preserved. This is not an issue for those who like everything rounded over, but I really like crisp accents on rims and base of bowls/platters (and especially on spindles). Often I'll leave sharp edges then soften them with 600 or 800 paper as the last step. BTW, much of my scraping by hand with the card scrapers is also done in the comfortable chair! I don't know if I getting elderly and feeble or I'm just plain lazy!

JKJ

[Steve Russell tucker]

I can almost feel the cringe from this statement Sir..... but I sharpen with an old 6" delta grinder with crappy wheels and a homemade jig ....... I know :/ but alas I am a poor wood turner , But I am working toward acquiring a wolverine jig and slower grinder once I work that out I'll save up for the CBNs as of now the wolverine setup costs about 3x as much as my tool set ...well now that all that is out of the way thank you very much all of you for the advice and compliments It really means a lot !!

[John K Jordan]

I can almost feel the cringe from this statement Sir..... but I sharpen with an old 6" delta grinder with crappy wheels and a homemade jig ....... I know :/ but alas I am a poor wood turner , But I am working toward acquiring a wolverine jig and slower grinder once I work that out I'll save up for the CBNs as of now the wolverine setup costs about 3x as much as my tool set ...well now that all that is out of the way thank you very much all of you for the advice and compliments It really means a lot !!

It sounds like you have everything you need.

There is nothing wrong with 6" wheels except the concavity of the bevel is a bit deeper. Crappy wheels can almost always be used IF they are trued and dressed with an inexpensive diamond dressing stick. I sharpened like that for a long time. If the finest stone you have is still too coarse you can hone the cutting edge with a little diamond hone or even a piece of fine sandpaper glued to a stick.

An 8" grinder would be better in the long run and can often be bought used for very cheap or free. i've given away two. If you use HSS tools it doesn't need to be a slow speed grinder.

You do not need CBN wheels to get a perfect edge on your tools. Yes, there are some advantages but don't forget that woodturners have been doing amazing work for many hundreds of years whle CBN whels have only been in use for a few years.

You don't need a wolverine system to get the same perfect grind. A skew, parting tool, and roughing gouge can be sharpened with a flat tool rest. A bowl and spindle gouge CAN be sharpened freehand but that takes some practice. I watched Chris Ramsey sharpen his gouge freehand - he is famous for turning cowboy hats. You said you use a homemade jig. If made properly it will work as well as the wolverine.

How is your jig made? Lots of very good woodturners have sharpened on simple, easy to make jigs that cost almost nothing. You can make the equivalent of the wolverine varigrind jig with a small block of wood, a short piece of dowel rod, and a bolt (plus a way to drill two holes and a few drops of wood glue.) The only difference in function is the simple wooden jig does not have an adjustable angle but that's not a problem.

If your jig and grinder are already set up like that maybe you could describe the problem you are having with sharpening. I'm sure there is a solution.

JKJ

[Ron Rutter]

Steve. Looks to me like all those dark rings are compression marks. Check out the term. They won't sand out!!

[Pat Scott]

It takes time and practice to make smooth flowing cuts with a bowl gouge. Try to do your best and improve on every bowl that you make, but sometimes the wood and grain don't cooperate like you want. When that happens, instead of spending more time trying over and over to get the perfect last cut, there's nothing wrong with picking up a Negative Rake Scraper to smooth out the curve and remove tool marks. You can always try again with your bowl gouge on the next bowl.

When I first started turning I frowned upon scrapers. I thought anyone that has to use a scraper just isn't good enough with a bowl gouge. I used to get frustrated when I couldn't make the perfect cut or perfect curve, or had tool marks. Well at the end of the day who cares what tool you used to get the finished result. When I'm having one of those days, I pick up a sharp NRS (Negative Rake Scraper) and make a few passes and I'm done. It's much more satisfying than getting frustrated, not to mention quicker.

I think you're WAY overdoing it with sanding to 2000 grit. Sanding to 320 or 400 is more than enough for what you're making and for the finish you're using. If you have to start with 80 grit to get rid of torn grain or tool marks, do not move up to 120 until all the torn grain and tool marks are gone. A NRS will let you start with 120 grit most times. Another sanding tip is to use fresh sandpaper, and quality sandpaper - it really does make a huge difference and reduce sanding time. I haven't quite got to the point of using fresh paper for every bowl, but I do use new paper for every other bowl. I'm more a production turner, so I do as little hand sanding as I can. To get rid of circular rings in the bottom of a bowl or platter, I remove the sanding pad from my drill and sand in the direction of the grain. With a keyless chuck it only takes a second to remove the pad. Don't mix sandpaper either, use the same disc to sand with the grain as you just got done using with the drill.

[Steve Russell tucker]

Hi Sir , as of right now I only have a little 3/4 round nose scraper but I do use it when I can I will do my level best to get a hold of a negative rake scraper Ive watched a bunch of videos about them and I look forward to trying one out, thank you for all your advice and ideas I appreciate it very much !

[Jamie Straw]

Hi Sir , as of right now I only have a little 3/4 round nose scraper but I do use it when I can I will do my level best to get a hold of a negative rake scraper Ive watched a bunch of videos about them and I look forward to trying one out, thank you for all your advice and ideas I appreciate it very much !

Steve, you (or a turning friend) can make a negative rake scraper out of any round-nose (or, I supposed, square) scraper. One of our club members, who is an aficionado of NRSs, took two of my bargain-basement round-nose scrapers to his grinder last month and converted them. The 1/2" was a Benjamin's Best and the 3/4" was something similar. They work great! but need sharpening more often than one might like, just the nature of the beast.

Re: Ron's comment about "compression marks" -- they're from the wood being burnished by the heel of the gouge most likely. Comes partly from pressing too hard and not having the heel ground back a tad from the main bevel. Sounds like you're free-hand sharpening right now, right? You'll want to raise the tool up a bit and soften the sharp edge of the heel. When you get your Wolverine set up, you can keep a small block/square of wood to pop into the V-pocket after you've ground a gouge, and put the fixture back in the pocket, sweep the wheel. I forget the thickness, 5/8" perhaps? I also keep a quarter, and a small nut around to pad behind the wood block if I need just a tad different heel treatment than the plain block offers.

[John K Jordan]

Re: Ron's comment about "compression marks" -- they're from the wood being burnished by the heel of the gouge most likely. Comes partly from pressing too hard and not having the heel ground back a tad from the main bevel.

I always round off the heel of spindle and bowl gouges and often polish the heel on the Tormek leather wheel.

I watched Chris Ramsey (KY) sharpen his gouge while turning cowboy hats. He grinds back the heel until it is a radius all the way from the cutting edge to the shaft, then puts only a sliver of bevel at the cutting edge, about 1/16" wide. He does this all by hand, no jigs. I tried it and it is an amazing grind, especially for making a continuous cut inside a bowl. No chance of compressing the wood. It does require the ability to control the tool, or as Clay Foster said, "guide a gouge."

338715

JKJ

[Aaron Craven]

I can almost feel the cringe from this statement Sir..... but I sharpen with an old 6" delta grinder with crappy wheels and a homemade jig ....... I know :/ but alas I am a poor wood turner , But I am working toward acquiring a wolverine jig and slower grinder once I work that out I'll save up for the CBNs as of now the wolverine setup costs about 3x as much as my tool set ...well now that all that is out of the way thank you very much all of you for the advice and compliments It really means a lot !!

I agree with John here. You can definitely get started with what you have and don't need to rush into an expensive setup. For quite some time, I sharpened freehand on a Harbor Freight belt sander. I'm very inexperienced with flatwork and didn't really have the confidence to build a jig, so you're already a step past where I was! When you have the money, stepping up to a 8" wheel is probably a good choice. If you have the ability to build your own Wolverine/Varigrind style jig (from wood or steel), you could definitely save some money by doing so. Or you could build the base and buy the varigrind.

Also I know many here would disagree, but for me, CBNs seem overly expensive. I'm sure they're very nice, but on my regular white wheels I get an edge that is plenty sharp enough. The exception for me is the skew, which I hone by hand with diamond cards. Given that CBNs cost around $150-$200, I can imagine a lot of things I'd be much happier with (like tools that hold their edge longer, for example). Of course, I will admit, I've never used a CBN wheel so I'm not speaking from experience. I'm more than prepared to eat my words if I'm wrong.

[Prashun Patel]

Steve,
You are a lucky man.

I've turned about 250 bowls, and I am just in this thread learning about compression marks. All this time I have had the same exact difficulty as you in sanding. My solution was to just muscle through with a power sander. It works but it takes forever, is no fun, is dusty, and can warp the bowl.

I had never considered grinding back the heel. Thanks guys!

[John K Jordan]

Also I know many here would disagree, but for me, CBNs seem overly expensive. I'm sure they're very nice, but on my regular white wheels I get an edge that is plenty sharp enough.

I think you are correct. I have several CBN wheels and I love using them but the edge from a standard wheel is no better. In fact, the edge from the Tormek water wheel is better than even the 600 grit CBN wheel I installed. But the setting up the water wheel is time consuming compared to a quick sharpening with the CBN. To me the biggest advantage is the CBN wheels don't change size with use and never need dressing and truing (or balancing.) But all that is just a convenience. If I had a limited budget there are a bunch of things that would be higher on my wish list than CBN wheels, for example additional chucks! Or some of Doug Thompson's and Mike Hunter's tools.

Belt sanders are excellent for sharpening. Read Mike Darlow's books - he is a big fan of linishing belts and wheels. A famous knife maker near here sharpened all of his knives and turning tools on big linishers. (My own knife-sharpening machine is a miniature version and easily makes a shaving sharp edge - if I had jigs for it I would certainly use it for my gouges and skews, at least for some work.

But when a CBN wheel is in the sights, you might want to check out the wheels that Ken Rizza sells (Woodturners Wonders). I've found him to be very helpful and pleasant to boot!

JKJ