RIP - Ali

[Rich Engelhardt]

The "Great One" is gone.

I still remember the coverage of the Liston/Clay fight as he taunted Liston.
They would report on the radio that Clay had once again appeared outside Liston's house in the middle of the night, shouting and calling Liston all sorts of names.
The man was a true craftsman!

[Frederick Skelly]

"He floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee... He calls to the other guy, I'm Ali - catch me if you can."

Rest in peace Champ. We'll miss you.

[Mel Fulks]

Most disliked him in the beginning,then everybody loved him. He didn't change. We did. Difficult feat. He loved kids and there are many stories of his attention toward a child or two while being interviewed. I chuckle every time I think of him bringing that big trophy over to his corner...before the fight!

[Mike Null]

Few men are true to their convictions as Ali. He was a giant and I see no others on the horizon. We have lost a great American and a great world ambassador.

[Art Mann]

Not everybody. I still have no love for arrogance.


Most disliked him in the beginning,then everybody loved him. He didn't change. We did. Difficult feat. He loved kids and there are many stories of his attention toward a child or two while being interviewed. I chuckle every time I think of him bringing that big trophy over to his corner...before the fight!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

My father boxed a little and was an avid boxing fan. He detested Ali and his boxing style. He ranted about his refusing to be inducted into the Army due to religious beliefs after being drafted. Yet, when I got drafted, the same father told me that it was an unpopular, unnecessary war and advised me to enlist in the Navy. I followed his advice. Give Ali, the credit due. He was willing to pay the penalties to stand behind his religious convictions. In fact, he lost his license to box at his very prime. People willing to pay any and all penalties to stand by their beliefs have a rare courage, then and now. There are a lot of empty loudmouths who talk the talk but few really walk the walk. He walked tall.

Arrogant youths are nothing new. They weren't new in the early 60's, they aren't new today. When he backed up his arrogant, outrageous predictions with knockouts, he proved his steel.

I argued many hours about Ali with the father who I loved, respected and lost in 1972. I still believe there is nothing intelligent about standing directly in front of another man, chest to chest and trading punches. There is a difference between a fighter and a boxer. Ali was a boxer, an intelligent boxer.

Later he suffered with Parkinson's and did so with a grace from which many could learn.

Hanging on a wall in our family room 10' from me is a 36"x30" oil portrait of Ali. In the view of this portrait, the viewer is on the mat, looking up at Ali standing, gloves ever ready, in the neutral corner.

This nation lost a true national treasure. He was an international ambassador for this country, his religion, his race and humanity.

RIP Muhammad Ali

[Mike Henderson]

He lost me when he refused the draft. Even Elvis served.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, that's understandable. I had pretty much forgotten all that. But he lost what was probably his peak 3 and 1/2 years of his career and was eventually upheld. So now I think of it as a stand for principle.

[Mel Fulks]

Ken,good job on that obit. I'm thinking you had written, polished occasionaly , and filed ready to go to print!

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, that's understandable. I had pretty much forgotten all that. But he lost what was probably his peak 3 and 1/2 years of his career and was eventually upheld. So now I think of it as a stand for principle.
My belief is that his refusal was upheld because they didn't want the negative publicity of prosecuting Ali. It was easier to just make it go away. Anyone else, not so famous, would have wound up in jail. And Ali would certainly not have been sent to Vietnam. He would have been treated like Elvis - he probably could have even trained for, and fought, professional fights while in the military.

He was just too arrogant to serve in the military. He was not going to have other people telling him what to do.

Mike

[Charlie Velasquez]

He lost me when he refused the draft. Even Elvis served.

MikeMike, I knew a number of people that were conscientious objectors. Still thought they were good folk. In fact, the character traits that made them conscientious objectors were probably some of the same traits that made them stand-up citizens.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken,good job on that obit. I'm thinking you had written, polished occasionaly , and filed ready to go to print!

Thanks...it didn't happen. Just off the cuff.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, I knew a number of people that were conscientious objectors. Still thought they were good folk. In fact, the character traits that made them conscientious objectors were probably some of the same traits that made them stand-up citizens.
You're correct. Sincere conscientious objectors deserve our respect. But as you probably know, during the Vietnam period, a lot of people "discovered" they were conscientious objectors. And conscientious objection (for the draft) meant that you objected to all war (not just to the Vietnam War), and that it was a sincere and long-held belief.

Getting a deferment based on conscientious objector status was difficult and required showing that you had a background of that belief, not that you just came by it when you got your 1A status. If you were a Quaker, or a few other groups, that was easy.

Other groups that objected to war, such as the Amish, did civilian service as hospital orderlies instead of military service.

I never heard the exact reason for Ali's refusal to serve, but there was certainly nothing in his background that would indicate a long history of objection to war. The only comment I ever heard him make about his refusal was "Ain't no Vietcong ever called me {the N word} (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/192738-i-ain-t-got-no-quarrel-with-the-vietcong-no-vietcong-ever)" which would have indicated an objection to serving in Vietnam, and not a general objection to war.

Mike

[I doubt if any of those 58,000+ people whose names are on that memorial in Washington, DC had been personally insulted by the Vietnamese before they served (and died).]

[Prashun Patel]

When we were kings was a great documentary. Ali's genius was his interaction with people not his boxing. He made me simultaneously cringe and love him.

At one point in time he was the most recognized image on the planet. Years after he stopped boxing.

Nice tribute Ken.

[ken masoumi]

My father boxed a little and was an avid boxing fan. He detested Ali and his boxing style. He ranted about his refusing to be inducted into the Army due to religious beliefs after being drafted. Yet, when I got drafted, the same father told me that it was an unpopular, unnecessary war and advised me to enlist in the Navy. I followed his advice. Give Ali, the credit due. He was willing to pay the penalties to stand behind his religious convictions. In fact, he lost his license to box at his very prime. People willing to pay any and all penalties to stand by their beliefs have a rare courage, then and now. There are a lot of empty loudmouths who talk the talk but few really walk the walk. He walked tall.

Arrogant youths are nothing new. They weren't new in the early 60's, they aren't new today. When he backed up his arrogant, outrageous predictions with knockouts, he proved his steel.

I argued many hours about Ali with the father who I loved, respected and lost in 1972. I still believe there is nothing intelligent about standing directly in front of another man, chest to chest and trading punches. There is a difference between a fighter and a boxer. Ali was a boxer, an intelligent boxer.

Later he suffered with Parkinson's and did so with a grace from which many could learn.

Hanging on a wall in our family room 10' from me is a 36"x30" oil portrait of Ali. In the view of this portrait, the viewer is on the mat, looking up at Ali standing, gloves ever ready, in the neutral corner.

This nation lost a true national treasure. He was an international ambassador for this country, his religion, his race and humanity.

RIP Muhammad Ali
Great post Ken,couldn't have said it better myself.
RIP Ali.

[Tom M King]

I was surprised that I had such a clear memory of the first Liston fight. edited to correct my mistake on this: I had long since forgotten it was in 1960 when I was ten years old. I think he was lucky to make it to 74. edited to add: I guess my memory is not that clear, since '60 was his Olympic year. I got the dates mixed up. Makes sense that I would remember it better from when I was 14

[John K Jordan]

I was pretty young and hardly ever watch sports, but I remember the Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston match. Maybe I remember it from the news. Wikipedia tells me it was in '64 which surprises me, I was 14 then. I couldn't believe it when he changed his name to Muhammad Ali. I always thought of him when I heard Paul Simon's "The Boxer"

JKJ

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Regarding the first Liston fight. A lowly freshman, I was between scenes as Pappy Yokum in the musical "Lil' Abner" in a small HS in southern Illinois. I was in the band room when a gorgeous female senior student jumped down off the window sill, threw her 9V transistor radio to the floor demolishing it, while screaming "That S O B knocked Liston out". She didn't use the abbreviations. That was the first time I had heard a woman use that kind of language.

The memory is a fresh today as it was all those years ago.

[Tony Zona]

Pappy Yokum? And you're telling us about it? Courageous! :-)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Pappy Yokum? And you're telling us about it? Courageous! :-)

No pride....:rolleyes:

[Mel Fulks]

Ken, sounds like they had the girls cast right ...I think you owe getting the Pappy role to a kind schmoo ... hmm....guess that is redundant ....all schmoos are kind.

[Stewie Simpson]

He lost me when he refused the draft. Even Elvis served.

Mike

Mike; there was a clear difference between Ali and Elvis; Ali was a Black American living in Louisville Kentucky, at a time of extreme racial inequality.

"Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home to drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam while so called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights."

" I ain't got nothing against Viet Cong; no Viet Cong never called me n----r.

R.I. P.

[Erik Loza]

When we were kings was a great documentary. Ali's genius was his interaction with people not his boxing. He made me simultaneously cringe and love him...

+1 ^^^

I actually have a copy of it on DVD and we watched it again last night. I don't believe it's available streaming. At least we could not find it.

Ali of course is Ali but I had forgotten how much of a monster George Foreman was back in the day. Watching him hit the heavy bag was frightening. I think it was George Plimpton who said that after the first round, it was the first time he ever saw fear in Ali's eyes. But Ali had a plan and it worked. That kind of confidence is rare. He backed up everything he said.

Erik

[Mike Henderson]

Mike; there was a clear difference between Ali and Elvis; Ali was a Black American living in Louisville Kentucky, at a time of extreme racial inequality.

"Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home to drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam while so called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights."

" I ain't got nothing against Viet Cong; no Viet Cong never called me n----r.

R.I. P.
There a maxim in the law that says "He who seeks equity must do equity." That can be extended into life and the general world as "He who seeks equality must give equality."

Mike

[And by your logic, no black person should have served. But most did - and honorably.]

[Just to go on a bit, think about the consequences of allowing a person to avoid military service (when there's a draft) by claiming that they were discriminated against in civilian life.
1. How much discrimination is enough to provide sufficient reason to avoid the draft? How do you measure "discrimination"?
2. Must that discrimination be personal, or is it sufficient that others in the same "category" as you were discriminated against?
3. If the discrimination must be personal, how do you prove it? Must you go before some board or court and prove your discrimination claim?
4. If the discrimination does not have to be personal, who certifies a "group" as being discriminated against and therefore not subject to the draft? And then, how do you decide who falls into that "group"?
5. How recent must the discrimination be? Could descendents of the Japanese who were interned during WWII claim discrimination?

You can see that it soon becomes impossible to administer. Almost every group has stories of discrimination: poor people, Jewish people, native Americans, blacks, the list goes on and on.

We have enough "victimhood" in our society now without that type of encouragement. Everyone would be looking for a reason that they were a victim of discrimination.]

[And just to go "off topic" for a minute. The draft was not "fair". The sons of wealthy families, often attending Ivy league schools, arrived at their Selective Service physical with documents from their doctors showing that they had various ailments that were hard to diagnose (especially in a SS physical) but would rate a 4F draft rating. The sons of poor families arrived with nothing and were most often given a 1A rating.

The SS doctors were complicit in this sham. They were often also from wealthy families and were highly trained. They did not want to send these obviously bright and highly educated young men to a useless meatgrinder. There were plenty of men and boys from poor families, often families of color, to send.]

[Dave Zellers]

How do you measure "discrimination"?
Would you agree that Ali had experienced more than enough to be able to measure 'discrimination'?

I don't post this to be argumentative but rather to join those who mark him as a truly great man. One who demanded to be treated equally to any man of any color. I'm 64 and he is one of my very few heroes. Resisting the draft for the Vietnam war is not the same as Elvis' situation at all.

[Mike Henderson]

Would you agree that Ali had experienced more than enough to be able to measure 'discrimination'?

I don't post this to be argumentative but rather to join those who mark him as a truly great man. One who demanded to be treated equally to any man of any color. I'm 64 and he is one of my very few heroes. Resisting the draft for the Vietnam war is not the same as Elvis' situation at all.

I sorry I put the comment about Elvis - I did not intend for this to get sidetracked into an equating of Elvis and Ali. What I wanted to highlight is the reasons I lost respect for Ali when he refused to be drafted.

Now, back to your comment. No, I do not know how to measure "discrimination" if it is going to be used as a reason for avoiding the draft. And we certainly could not allow each person to define what "enough" discrimination is that you should not be drafted. In fact, I do not think discrimination is sufficient reason to avoid the draft - for the reasons I specified earlier.

Mike

[And what made the discrimination that Ali suffered so much greater than the discrimination that many other people suffered - and yet they served? If Ali could get a "pass" because of discrimination, then a LOT of other people should also have gotten a pass. But the country cannot exist if everyone who is discriminated against gets to use it to avoid military service when the draft is in force.]

[Dave Zellers]

Your points are valid to be sure. This issue goes far beyond the scope of an online discussion. I resisted participating for that very reason. It would be truly enjoyable to sit down for an hour over coffee or a beer and have a chat.

I will close by saying I have the utmost respect for your service and ALL who chose to serve. I believe the freedom I enjoy comes from the sacrifices you all have made.

But I also believe Muhammad Ali was a truly great man who stood by his principles, at the expense of incarceration, and over the course of his life made the world a much better place through his generosity and love of his fellow man.

IMO, all he ever sought was the opportunity to be all that he could be. This great country gave him that opportunity, and I think he was grateful. He rose above the discrimination. Like Jackie Robinson, Bill Russel and others. I just can't see him as anything other than a great man.

[Pat Barry]

I feel that Ali was a leader as demonstrated by refusing the draft for that war. There was no better person to highlight the issues of the day than Ali. Everyone knows that he would have gone and been placed in some easy, non combat duty anyway as heavyweight champion of the world but he stood by his beliefs and lost 3+ years of his very prime as a boxer. The only thing is, he was so much better than the rest of the boxers of that era that there was no one to challenge him during that time anyway - then he truly was The Greatest.

[John A langley]

I have mixed emotions about Ali I didn't like the idea he refused to go in Army I think over time he proved his convictions, I noticed the good news media has not mentioned the Ali - Norton fight I went to that fight in San Diego I think Ali took Norton for granted The good fights were in the parking lot between Ali and Norton supporters

[Mike Henderson]

I feel that Ali was a leader as demonstrated by refusing the draft for that war. There was no better person to highlight the issues of the day than Ali. Everyone knows that he would have gone and been placed in some easy, non combat duty anyway as heavyweight champion of the world but he stood by his beliefs and lost 3+ years of his very prime as a boxer. The only thing is, he was so much better than the rest of the boxers of that era that there was no one to challenge him during that time anyway - then he truly was The Greatest.
I think there are some problems with your analysis.

There were many people who opposed the Vietnam War on a variety of grounds. Some felt that it was an immoral war, that it was an unwinnable war, that it was the sons of poor Americans who bore the brunt of the war, that Vietnam was engaged in a war of independance and we needed to butt out, and many other valid, moral reasons.

I never heard Ali say anything about why he opposed the war, only that he, personally, did not want to serve. The only statement I ever heard attributed to him was the one I quoted earlier, where he says that no Vietcong ever did anything to him personally.

Personally, I don't see that position as high moral opposition to the war. If he had not been called for the draft, I really doubt if Ali would have ever said anything about Vietnam, or even cared about it. It certainly does not make him a leader in any moral sense.

Mike

[Pat Barry]

I think there are some problems with your analysis.

There were many people who opposed the Vietnam War on a variety of grounds. Some felt that it was an immoral war, that it was an unwinnable war, that it was the sons of poor Americans who bore the brunt of the war, that Vietnam was engaged in a war of independance and we needed to butt out, and many other valid, moral reasons.

I never heard Ali say anything about why he opposed the war, only that he, personally, did not want to serve. The only statement I ever heard attributed to him was the one I quoted earlier, where he says that no Vietcong ever did anything to him personally.

Personally, I don't see that position as high moral opposition to the war. If he had not been called for the draft, I really doubt if Ali would have ever said anything about Vietnam, or even cared about it. It certainly does not make him a leader in any moral sense.

Mike
Mike, it seems you are passionate about this topic and I don't want to argue but this is a RIP (rest in peace) thread not a thread to rip the dead guy

[Von Bickley]

You're correct. Sincere conscientious objectors deserve our respect. But as you probably know, during the Vietnam period, a lot of people "discovered" they were conscientious objectors. And conscientious objection (for the draft) meant that you objected to all war (not just to the Vietnam War), and that it was a sincere and long-held belief.

Getting a deferment based on conscientious objector status was difficult and required showing that you had a background of that belief, not that you just came by it when you got your 1A status. If you were a Quaker, or a few other groups, that was easy.

Other groups that objected to war, such as the Amish, did civilian service as hospital orderlies instead of military service.

I never heard the exact reason for Ali's refusal to serve, but there was certainly nothing in his background that would indicate a long history of objection to war. The only comment I ever heard him make about his refusal was "Ain't no Vietcong ever called me {the N word} (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/192738-i-ain-t-got-no-quarrel-with-the-vietcong-no-vietcong-ever)" which would have indicated an objection to serving in Vietnam, and not a general objection to war.

Mike

[I doubt if any of those 58,000+ people whose names are on that memorial in Washington, DC had been personally insulted by the Vietnamese before they served (and died).]

I agree with Mike 100%. A lot of young men did not care about being drafted, but they went and took the Military Oath.

[Allan Speers]

Ali was an outstanding boxer, but an absolutely disgusting human being.

This is indeed an "RIP" so enough of that, but it makes me a little crazy to here so many luminaries suddenly jumping on the andwagon and talking about him as if he were the second son of God or something.

[Charlie Velasquez]

I never heard Ali say anything about why he opposed the war, only that he, personally, did not want to serve. .....
Personally, I don't see that position as high moral opposition to the war. If he had not been called for the draft, I really doubt if Ali would have ever said anything about Vietnam, or even cared about it. It certainly does not make him a leader in any moral sense.

MikeBefore being classified 1A Cassius Clay converted to Islam and took the name Mohammed Ali.
In his legal abstract he explained that the Koran prohibited him from fighting in a war that was not 'sanctioned' (my term) by his religion. He publically said:
"War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_v._United_States Wiki

Their were many conscientious objectors that received deferments based on religion. The draft board declared he did not meet the guidelines, but gave no reason why. Apparently the board and the appellant court decided in their hearts this was a demonstration and not a sincere religious conscientious objector. They rejected his appeal on several grounds but later admitted to the Supreme Court that all but one was invalid. They gave no reason for deciding this final reason valid and deciding Ali was not a genuine religious objectior. Without a bonafide reason the supreme court could not rule on whether rejection of his application for CO was valid, and had no choice but to overturn his conviction.

He was certainly true to his faith later in life, so it certainly seems reasonable that his application for conscientious objector was genuine. Had the draft boards and appellate courts given him the same treatment they gave many other religion based COs there would have probably been a couple of paragraphs on page 5. But by trying to make an example of him, he really had no other options and made national news and kept his name on the front page of not just the sports section, but most newspapers in the world.

He was willing to be imprisoned for his religion. So he was taking the highest moral ground that his religion dictated.

[Mike Null]

I believe I smell an odor of something else here. It's so convenient to forget Dick Cheney's 5 deferments during Viet Nam none of which were tied to a moral conviction of any kind. But he was hell bent on sending other young Americans into a senseless war.

[Prashun Patel]

Ding, ding ding!

Both sides will likely not be convinced here, and I'd hate to see anyone get ko'd over this when we're all in the ring for less controversial topics like sharpening, Sawstop, and Festool.

If you just HAVE to get another word in edgewise, lmk and I will unlock, but hopefully shots will remain above the belt.

If not, let's go back to our corners and box this one up.

Ok, I'm out of bad metaphors.