turning cedar

[Brad Barnhart]

Howdy! I've been building a project out of cedar that I managed to find all the cedar right here locally, & was milled on the farmers place when they took out the trees. I'm going to have some left over from the project, so I thought I'd turn something kinda dandy out of the leftovers. Any thoughts? What's cedar like to turn? Kinda splintery I'm guessing. This cedar has the most beautiful color array in it. And for laying flat in the farmers' barn the last ten years, its been easy to work. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[John Keeton]

Cedar is soft and prone to cracking, even when dry. It should turn easily with sharp tools, but it doesn't do well with film finishes. The oily nature seems to cause the finish to fail. I would consider an oil finish - pure tung oil, etc.

[William C Rogers]

I haven't turned any in a while. It does turn easily. I have made vases, small lidded boxes and even a pepper mill. I used lacquer and haven't noticed any problem with the finish, but John has much more experience than me.

[Thomas Heck]

Soft beautiful wood, but seems to crack easily. I've had it crack while sanding. Light pressure while sanding at a slow speed would probably be your best bet.

[Aaron Craven]

As noted, soft and prone to cracking and tear out if tools aren't sharp. Slicing cuts work far better (IMO) than scraping cuts. Sands relatively easily, but be careful of speed and pressure, especially at higher grits. Heat will cause the surface to get micro-cracks (I think they're called craze lines) that are nearly impossible to sand back out. After you finish, green wood may still get cracks. Once dry though, it's been my experience that it remains pretty stable. Cedar isn't a particularly strong wood and will split very easily if you're not careful.

The dust is... something. Use a respirator (especially when sanding) or you'll be blowing red colored yuck out of your nose for days.

For finish, I've used a number of things. Polyurethane works well if you like a deep colored finish, but sometimes takes a large number of coats. Boiled linseed oil will look nice at first, but lose its sheen very quickly. An oil/wax finish is nice looking at first, but make sure the oil is cured before waxing or it may bleed back through. If you want to keep the natural color of the wood, a buffed wax finish works well (though the color might fade more quickly with this finish -- I don't know). I've never used lacquer myself, but I've seen some pieces with it that really seemed nice and have held up well. Color was somewhere between the natural look of wax and the dark red of an oil/varnish finish.

[Roger Chandler]

The cracking issue is a big deal with cedar. I have a large trunk about 28" diameter, and have attempted 4 bowls to date...three of them cracked to a point that I put them on the wood pile for burning.....the other one exploded on me, just as I was doing the last cuts. If it were not for the fact this tree has sentimenal value to my BIL, then I would forget it all together, but I will try to get a bowl or something from it for him. I drove nearly 400 miles round trip and hauled that thing back home on my trailer to make him and my sister something! :eek:

[John K Jordan]

Howdy! I've been building a project out of cedar that I managed to find all the cedar right here locally, & was milled on the farmers place when they took out the trees. I'm going to have some left over from the project, so I thought I'd turn something kinda dandy out of the leftovers. Any thoughts? What's cedar like to turn? Kinda splintery I'm guessing. This cedar has the most beautiful color array in it. And for laying flat in the farmers' barn the last ten years, its been easy to work. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Brad,

My experience with cedar has been very positive. I've turned a bunch and have never had a piece crack or split. Around here we have ERC, Eastern Red Cedar - I have no experience with other types of cedar. I always turn it dry. Maybe people with problems are turning it wet. Here are some examples, some of which I've posted in the past:

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The last picture shows a platter/shallow bowl from cedar (top and upper left) - these make great gifts! I think the third picture is the second bowl I ever turned, maybe the third, it's been a long time.

I've made a zillion "magic wands" from cedar, just made another one yesterday (with a multi-axis handle). Eight of the wands in this picture are made from ERC, including the long one in the center. If you use some with white the result can be striking.
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It often has incredible figure:
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I cut big blanks and let them dry for a bunch of years before turning. I cut slabs on my sawmill for turning platters, shallow bowls, spindles, small boxes, etc. I cut this 5' log about 10 years ago, gave away a bunch (Frank Penta took some), and I'm still using pieces. The widest slab is about 24" across. These make GREAT platters.
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In my experience cedar, at least ERC, dries quickly, is very stable. Of course, I turn it dry. I did find out on my first bowl that even dry ERC checked easily when overheated with sandpaper. It was on that bowl that I hit on the idea of using a small curved hand scraper instead of sandpaper which left the surface as smooth as a baby's cheek. I've been using the small card scrapers ever since on every kind of wood.

In my experience, cedar cuts very cleanly without splinters or tearout (with very sharp cutting tools). For spindle work a sharp skew on cedar is a dream. It is very soft so a delicate piece can be dented easily. I often use cedar in demos since it so quick and easy to turn. I sometimes use it when teaching woodturning - BTW, I always start beginners with the skew chisel.

I like pure beeswax as a finish since I like the soft sheen. (I have beehives here) Beeswax lets the cedar smell come through - in case you don't know the smell can be refreshed with a drop of cedar oil. I put beeswax on while spinning if possible and buff it with a soft cloth, microcrystalline wax on top. Sometimes I use a heat gun to melt the beeswax into the surface for a richer finish. I have occasionally used spray lacquer as a finish, as in the first picture above - 6 coats, steel wool between.

If you have dry Eastern Red Cedar, I'd say go for it! If you decide not to, send it to me. :)

JKJ

[ALAN HOLLAR]

The hydrocamphene component of the cedar oil is essentially a plasticizer and will soften lacquers and varnishes over time. A barrier coat of shellac or a vinyl sealer will keep film finishes healthy longer.

[John K Jordan]

The hydrocamphene component of the cedar oil is essentially a plasticizer and will soften lacquers and varnishes over time. A barrier coat of shellac or a vinyl sealer will keep film finishes healthy longer.

That's good to know. I used shellac sander sealer under lacquer, still OK after 8 years. Beeswax needs nothing.

JKJ

[Aaron Craven]

Those are some really nice pieces, John. I especially like the second bowl with the tall foot.

(Now I've got an itch to go turn some cedar again... wonder if I have anything big enough to make a bowl with... hmmm...)

[Robert Marshall]

My dad was a career Army officer, serving from WWII through early Vietnam. He would have considered those "wands" to be swagger sticks. Vital accessory for parades. Hup, hup, hup, two, three, four!

[Wes Ramsey]

I've turned very little cedar, but what I have turned I just rubbed a little Danish oil on them and they looked great. It does turn nice - I don't recall any tearout from dry cedar. Not sure what variety it was, but it was local.

[John K Jordan]

My dad was a career Army officer, serving from WWII through early Vietnam. He would have considered those "wands" to be swagger sticks. Vital accessory for parades. Hup, hup, hup, two, three, four!

Well, learn something new every day, something special for this Memorial Day week! I had to look up "swagger stick" - wow, some are pretty fancy! Thanks Robert, and hats off to your dad.

I did feel a bit like swaggering after one Harry Potter book release. I set up a lathe in front of a book store and made magic wands for the kids and had a table full of pre-made wands. I almost never sell or try to sell turnings but these sold themselves - $1750 is three hours! Yikes. And yes, a bunch were made of cedar.

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JKJ

[Stan Calow]

Brad thanks for starting this thread. ERC is about as common as anything here, considered a invasive species so lots of it cut down. I assumed it was too brittle to turn, so good to find out otherwise.

[Fred Belknap]

John K. love that hat.

[Brad Barnhart]

Stan, I live in NW KS, so I'm not sure what breed of cedar this is. I'm not to technologically smart, so I have a heck of a time with pictures. But this has ALOT of red & white in it, & is figured beautifully. I'm going to use some of it for it scroll work, too. Thank you for all the responses & help.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Brad you are not the only one that is or was confused about what king of tree this/these is/are :)

If you look at this here you’ll see it is no Cedar to start of with, but a Juniper, and there are several different ones, anyway I find it a nice wood to turn, even when it is soft and will loose that striking red color eventually and the nice smell even quicker.
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I know people having problems working with it they say, I find it not problematic to turn or keep it without splitting or checking, even from green wood, as that is what I always use, just make sure you don’t rely on sandpaper to get a smooth surface, and dry it slowly.
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Though yes the color does slowly changes from the red to a barely noticeable brown over the years, as I have had that happen to a few pieces I/We kept in our house.

Like this bud-vase that by 2010 has changed it’s color after 6 years sitting in our house in just indirect light, color has even more changed by now, no picture sorry.
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[John K Jordan]

...I find it not problematic to turn or keep it without splitting or checking, even from green wood, as that is what I always use...

Leo,

Very nice. Now I'll have to try turning some green, something I've never done.

Your post may solve a problem for me - I made my first Beads of Courage lidded bowls/boxes this year but don't have enough dry blanks large enough to make more without glue ups. But I have at least 20 cedar logs in a pile and another big one recently downed in a storm! Perfect!!

A question for you - how much does it move when turned green? I'll rough turn then dry to get a good fit on the lid but if I had an idea of what to expect it might help me decide how thick to leave the walls.

Also, do you have experience with both end grain and side grain bowls?

Thanks!

JKJ

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo,

Very nice. Now I'll have to try turning some green, something I've never done.

Your post may solve a problem for me - I made my first Beads of Courage lidded bowls/boxes this year but don't have enough dry blanks large enough to make more without glue ups. But I have at least 20 cedar logs in a pile and another big one recently downed in a storm! Perfect!!

A question for you - how much does it move when turned green? I'll rough turn then dry to get a good fit on the lid but if I had an idea of what to expect it might help me decide how thick to leave the walls.

Also, do you have experience with both end grain and side grain bowls?

Thanks!

JKJ

John I have turned quite a few boxes in the rough, put them in a paper bag and then forget all about them, then some day I just grab a couple and finish turn them, I find endgrain doesn’t give you that twist that side-grain does, still it does move and they can get tight if the fit was close.

The only problem is of course the splitting that end grain will do, especially if the pith is in it, for me CA is the helping hand in preventing that, so it goes in on the inside, also a curved bottom (thin) will be able to move some.

How much does wood move, well that is not the same for different species and even in the same one, depending how fast or slow it grows and when it is cut down, to tell you the truth, I have never measured the size when green and again when dry, however as both the top and bottom piece move equally, the walls do not need the thickness that we need for a side-grain piece where we have endgrain and long-grain, that is shrinking in different amounts, or rather not at all in the length and the typical 8 to 12% in thickness for the long grain.

Also boxes are typical rather small and if the box goes a little oval that is hardly noticeable if at all.

There’s only a handful bowls (larger ones) I turned in endgrain direction, as I tend to turn rather user then so called “art” pieces and find that engrain is more prone to split later-on , plus the pith area that will give problems drying if it is in the piece.

As for side-grain bowls, that is how I turn my bowls and from green wood, and I have done this for better than 50 years, mind you only as a hobby starting at home in our shop around 1958, on a big metal lathe using faceplate and machinist chuck.

Making my tools and learning myself how to turn, without a teacher and the books, gouges and the internet we have now, it was not easy, but for the love of wood and the challenge to be able to do this in my otherwise metal world, and I got there in the end, I still do love to turn wood, any kind, well I try it at least ones ;)

[John K Jordan]

How much does wood move, well that is not the same for different species and even in the same one

Thanks, I've turned a lot of green maple, walnut, cherry, etc. but no wet eastern red cedar. I'll just try some and see what happens.

The Beads Of Courage boxes are typically much larger than the typical turned boxes, probably better called a lidded bowl. They are often 6-7" or more in diameter. The lids need to be easily removed by even very ill children. I made my first two with rather thick bottoms so they didn't tip easily. This picture is of my first one, glued up from cherry with a piece of basswood in the middle for chip carving. I believe I posted a picture of this earlier:

338488

I think various clubs turned over 700 of these this spring. Our club has just begun a drive to provide more to a local hospital just starting on the BOC program.

JKJ

JKJ

[William C Rogers]

The hydrocamphene component of the cedar oil is essentially a plasticizer and will soften lacquers and varnishes over time. A barrier coat of shellac or a vinyl sealer will keep film finishes healthy longer.

Thanks for the tip. I do remember a lidded box I used lacquer where the inside did not want to dry hard. Next time I'll seal it with shellac of use an oil finish.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Thanks for the tip. I do remember a lidded box I used lacquer where the inside did not want to dry hard. Next time I'll seal it with shellac of use an oil finish.

The oil in Juniper (Eastern Red Cedar) and others like Rosewood will stall or slow the polymerization of oils like BLO or Tung oil.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Thanks, I've turned a lot of green maple, walnut, cherry, etc. but no wet eastern red cedar. I'll just try some and see what happens.

The Beads Of Courage boxes are typically much larger than the typical turned boxes, probably better called a lidded bowl. They are often 6-7" or more in diameter. The lids need to be easily removed by even very ill children. I made my first two with rather thick bottoms so they didn't tip easily. This picture is of my first one, glued up from cherry with a piece of basswood in the middle for chip carving. I believe I posted a picture of this earlier:

338488

I think various clubs turned over 700 of these this spring. Our club has just begun a drive to provide more to a local hospital just starting on the BOC program.

JKJ

JKJ

Nice pot or lidded bowl John, the carving sets it apart, I have made a few larger boxes/lidded bowls/pots, but these all have loose fitting lids, here are a couple.

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[John K Jordan]

Very nice! Some of these would be perfect for the Beads of Courage project. If you're not familiar with it, the bowls/boxes are for keeping strings of "story" beads for seriously ill children, many of them being treated for cancer. I hope to make at least 10 more this year.

The lids can't be tight so even small and uncoordinated kids can get them on and off easily. After some experimentation, I hit on a good design - taper the rim of the bowl inward and make the lid fit outside the rim, tapering it outward. This way there is a wide clearance when placing the lid on the rim but with the taper the fit is secure, neither too snug nor too loose.

JKJ

[Stan Calow]

Brad there are no native true cedars in Missouri/Kansas. Like Leo said, its really a juniper - I remember my 5th grade shop teacher saying that, and it stuck. You can keep the shavings from it to use for the insect-repelling scent in closets, or hamster cages if you know someone with pet rodents. It is surprising that with that striking red/purple/cream color, it is not more popular for woodworking.

[John K Jordan]

Brad there are no native true cedars in Missouri/Kansas. Like Leo said, its really a juniper - I remember my 5th grade shop teacher saying that, and it stuck. You can keep the shavings from it to use for the insect-repelling scent in closets, or hamster cages if you know someone with pet rodents. It is surprising that with that striking red/purple/cream color, it is not more popular for woodworking.

Eastern red cedar is widely used for woodworking in some areas. I stopped at a roadside shop in the Appalachian mountains which was full, inside and out, with furniture and things made of ERC. A cabinet shop near me does a good business selling porch swings made from ERC - he sells all he can make. I've used it for everything from barn doors to beehive boxes to cabinets. My barn, probably between 80 and 100 years old, has tall ERC trees as structural posts - still in excellent condition. If anyone wants some cedar for turning stop by and visit - I have a stack of logs.

To be clear, according to my reference books the term "true cedar" is reserved for the genus Cedrus, which includes Cedar of Lebanon, Cyprus Cedar, and some others. One reference states "In North America species of the genus Thuja, such as Western Red Cedar, are commonly — though mistakenly — confused with genuine cedar. While some naturalized species of cedar (Cedrus, the true cedars) can be found in the Americas, there are no native species." So yes, there are no native true cedars in Kansas! (Hey, I just remembered, I was born in Kansas.)

If we refer to Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_virginiana)) as a Juniper then I guess we should call Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata) a Thuja (it sometimes is in the literature). And there are several species of mahogany also called "red cedar". Yikes.

Another confusing regional nomenclature is the common name "poplar": in many areas, such as around here, Poplar always means Tulip/Yellow Poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). I'm told it means Populus, "true poplar" in other areas. And I read once that there are dozens of species called Ironwood in various places. Common names are a nightmare for wood collectors, specialists, and those of us interested in wood ID. Common names are a boon to wood dealers - they can call a species anything they want for marketing purposes. Just look at "Whitewood" in Home Depot.

JKJ