Masculinity and Femininity

[Rich Riddle]

At Home Depot today a woman about 70 needed help loading potting soil in here car trunk. It took a few seconds to toss in the trunk. She shook here head and said, "we are losing all our masculinity and femininity." She lamented about males who couldn't lift a few pounds or light a pilot light and women who didn't even know how to turn on a stove and walk like bull dogs. I simply smiled because time wasn't available for a long discussion. Do you folks think in the land of androgyny we are losing the best parts of manliness and womanliness?

[Art Mann]

In a word - yes.

[Warren Wilson]

I'm certain it is a very complex question -- but the visual image of women walking like bulldogs made me grin.

[Brent Cutshall]

Shoot, I am embarrassed to be of this generation. The majority of people today even work, more people feeding off of taxes than paying them. This offends me because I'm gonna hafta pay for their living later on. People screaming and crying about their rights that they don't even pay to protect. When the wise of yesterday pass away and this generation take place, it'll be a sad time. Stuff we talk about on here, nobody but us few even knows what is even though it took woodworking skill to build this country, we came over here on a wood ship, just saying. And who ain't tired of about the bathroom dilemma. Sorry if I offended anyone but come on.

[Mike Henderson]

No, people are the same today as they were 2,000 years ago. There were always men and women who could do things generally associated with the opposite sex.

In general, our ideas of masculinity and femininity are social constructs. While many people satisfy those constructs, many people do not - and that's been true forever.

Mike

[The first written complaint about the younger generation, that I'm aware of, goes back to the Greeks. Every older generation says the younger generation is terrible. Our elders said it about us but we didn't do too bad. And today's younger generation will do okay, also.]

["The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise". Socrates]

[Jim Koepke]

I'm certain it is a very complex question -- but the visual image of women walking like bulldogs made me grin.

If you want to see a womanly walk of yesteryear, watch the TV series Bones. When the Character Cam Saryon walks away, it may not be walking like a bull dog, but it is the walk that would have some men stepping on their own tongues.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

I remember during the most contentious of "women's lib" times thinking... but how could a woman dump truck driver be sexy? Turns out they can manage it! For the most part I think people do okay in workplace and don't tolerate abuse and vulgarity. But both sexes were contentious for a while; I remember a friend opening a shop door for a woman and being told "I can open a door myself ! " He replied " Excuse me ,sir ; I thought you were a lady!". I do find that in business dealings women are more likely to spin yarns about problems with their company's service. Men will admit your order has been botched.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I do find that in business dealings women are more likely to spin yarns about problems with their company's service. Men will admit your order has been botched.

I tend to disagree. My experience is women are more straightforward and men seem to equivocate and make excuses.

[Rich Engelhardt]

A lot of the fun of riding a bike came from having a girl on back holding on tight to you as you drove.
Now the girls drive faster bikes than the boys.....

The whole universe is upside down :( ...

((sigh)) - I'm glad I'm old and going to die soon..

[roger wiegand]

I think the world would be a far better place if half the population weren't suffering from testosterone poisoning and the resulting compulsion to dominate other people, the planet, and anything else they can.

[Jim Becker]

I guess I have to be a contrarian...why does it matter? Let each individual be themselves and not try to enforce stereotypes. What's more important is respect and that includes the concept of "treat others the way you want them to treat you". That's how I try to live my life and what I try to instill in my kids. I'm not concerned in the least about things like "masculinity" and "femininity"...I worry more right now about the loss of respect, empathy and kindness that's way too over the top right now both publicly and privately.

[Erik Loza]

I guess I have to be a contrarian...why does it matter? Let each individual be themselves and not try to enforce stereotypes. What's more important is respect and that includes the concept of "treat others the way you want them to treat you". That's how I try to live my life and what I try to instill in my kids. I'm not concerned in the least about things like "masculinity" and "femininity"...I worry more right now about the loss of respect, empathy and kindness that's way too over the top right now both publicly and privately.


*slow clap*....

Erik

[Marty Schlosser]

It's pretty clear up here in Canada, that there's been an equilization of the playing field as far as the conventional relationship has been in the past. But I for one think that's a great thing in so many ways. There's absolutely no reason why women can't "lift a few pounds or light a pilot light and turn on a stove". But, come on, "walk like bull dogs"?! I guess I'm not quite up for that one!

[Mike Henderson]

I guess I have to be a contrarian...why does it matter? Let each individual be themselves and not try to enforce stereotypes. What's more important is respect and that includes the concept of "treat others the way you want them to treat you". That's how I try to live my life and what I try to instill in my kids. I'm not concerned in the least about things like "masculinity" and "femininity"...I worry more right now about the loss of respect, empathy and kindness that's way too over the top right now both publicly and privately.

Well said. About the worse thing I can think of is forcing people into certain "masculine" or "feminine" roles when those roles don't fit the person. At one time, in the United States, a woman who wore pants was considered scandalous. I think it was Katharine Hepburn who more-or-less broke that convention. In some countries today, women are forced to wear certain outer garments or face legal sanctions, including beatings.

No, I'm with Jim. Freedom means not having to conform to other people's ideas of "masculine" or "feminine". Let's show everyone respect, empathy and kindness.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

Being able to lift a few pounds or light a pilot light speaks to being out of shape or do manual things.

I do fear for a Wall-E-esque future where my kids and grandkids are all fat and lazy thinking manual work is beneath them and technology is the only noble pursuit, but it has nothing to do with gender perceptions.

Funny aside:

When I advised my 3 year old nephew that I was going home to help my wife in the kitchen, responded, "Boys don't cook." He'll learn... I think it's great that a lot of "boys" cook well, and a lot of "girls" have professional jobs. I never felt any role is more or less noble than another, but being able to do a couple well gives you options and helps everyone appreciate each other a little more.

[David Helm]

In this era of electronic lighting of water heaters, gas stoves, etc. there doesn't seem to be a need for lighting pilot lights. I'm with Jim and Mike. Respect goes a long way.

[Brian W Smith]

I hear what you're sayin...

I've got four 20 sumthin guys working for me that are tuff as nails.

[Tony Zona]

Walk like a bull dog? What in heaven's name does that mean? I've never heard that.

Seeing anybody walk like a bull dog is a little disconcerting.

What does it mean?

[Rich Riddle]

Walk like a bull dog? What in heaven's name does that mean? I've never heard that.

Seeing anybody walk like a bull dog is a little disconcerting.

What does it mean?I just smiled because time was limited. It was her comment, not mine. My guess is that females don't walk feminine any longer and that was her way of saying it. She also mentioned something about finishing school but I'm clueless about that comment.

[Jerry Thompson]

I know one thing: A woman's place is in the home and that's where she should go right after work.:D

[Mike Henderson]

I just smiled because time was limited. It was her comment, not mine. My guess is that females don't walk feminine any longer and that was her way of saying it. She also mentioned something about finishing school but I'm clueless about that comment.
Today, "finishing school" would mean graduating from high school or college. And many women (and men) do finish school.

Mike

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I'm with the "Treat others as you would like to be treated crowd" but I did grow up in a household that followed the gender rules of woman's/man's work. My LOML and I share chores and do whatever chore is better-suited for our different abilities. My Sweetheart has airborne allergies so while we both can and do use the weed whacker, I insist on doing that chore.


A lot of the fun of riding a bike came from having a girl on back holding on tight to you as you drove.
Now the girls drive faster bikes than the boys.....

The whole universe is upside down :( ...

((sigh)) - I'm glad I'm old and going to die soon..

A lot of fun of riding a bike could also be having your arms wrapped around an hourglass figure and holding on tight. Most people will look at a naked man and laugh while most people will appreciate the beauty of a naked woman. .... So.... what would you rather look at on a fast bike ... the back side of a man in leathers, or the back side of a woman in leathers? You might want to check that view out before you die. :cool:

[Victor Robinson]

I guess I have to be a contrarian...why does it matter? Let each individual be themselves and not try to enforce stereotypes. What's more important is respect and that includes the concept of "treat others the way you want them to treat you". That's how I try to live my life and what I try to instill in my kids. I'm not concerned in the least about things like "masculinity" and "femininity"...I worry more right now about the loss of respect, empathy and kindness that's way too over the top right now both publicly and privately.

Well said.

[Rich Engelhardt]

what would you rather look at on a fast bike ... the back side of a man in leathers, or the back side of a woman in leathersI see your point - - -however...
having a girl on back was pretty much the only good reason for putting on the brakes! ;).

[Joe Tilson]

Think about what we are here on SMC. Neanders, and that's weird by today's roles. Be look to the past for some of our skills. Others look to the future. This is a good thing. It's like Captain Kirk say's "young minds, fresh ideas, Spock".

[Ted Calver]

...I worry more right now about the loss of respect, empathy and kindness that's way too over the top right now both publicly and privately.

Right on, Jim!!

[Rod Sheridan]

. Do you folks think in the land of androgyny we are losing the best parts of manliness and womanliness?

Hi Rich, actually I think the opposite.

We are less restrained by the imposed expectations of society today than we were previously. This has allowed us to lose some of the worst characteristics of males and females and be more natural in our interactions with society.

There were always men who didn't know how to build a brick wall, and that's a good thing as they knew other things equally valuable.

I don't think we're becoming more androgynous, I think we're becoming better rounded individuals who have a wider range of skills than would be previously expected of us............Regards, Rod.

[Victor Robinson]

Procedural knowledge/skill, a large part of gender roles, is becoming less relevant in the internet age anyways. If you're a man who doesn't know how to light a pilot light, you can learn extremely quickly and easily. Likewise, if you're a woman who doesn't know how to cook, you can learn that pretty easily as well (if you want to). And because of the availability of information, women can light pilot lights and men can cook, and I think that's great. People are more free to be themselves, pursue whatever interests them without worrying about norms, and perhaps in that "happier" context we can get back to focusing on true humanity - like Jim says, empathy, kindness, tolerance, etc.

But I understand the fondness with which many older/wisers look back. We will always lament the passing of the "good ol' days" - I'm in my mid-30s and do it already. There was something lovely about calling my friends on the landline and having to make pleasantries with their folks before speaking to them. And I'm sure the generation before me thought writing letters was swell. And the future generation will look back with fondness at text messages, soon to be a relic once teleportation, holographic messages, and instant thought transfers become possible.

[Phil Stone]

Well said, and I couldn't agree more, Rod.

[Frank Drew]

I'm with Jim and appreciate his post; a little more kindness, respect, and empathy could go a long way these days.

I do agree that there's been a certain loosening of gender expectations or norms over the past decade or two, but a lot of that's really only happening at the margins -- men are still men and women are still women -- and if a more accepting attitude overall allows people who are a bit different from us fit in, I don't see that as a bad thing.

I will say that a very positive development since I was a kid (a long, long time ago) is that young girls today are much tougher, physically, than they used to be, and I don't mean being butch in any sense, I mean that they don't feel physically fragile or afraid. Young boys, on the other hand... well, let's just say that the roles have reversed.

[Joe Tilson]

I agree with Rod and Victor. Well said folks!

[Bert Kemp]

Finishing school back in the day women went to learn proper educate how to set a table, put on make up, stuff like that:rolleyes:

I just smiled because time was limited. It was her comment, not mine. My guess is that females don't walk feminine any longer and that was her way of saying it. She also mentioned something about finishing school but I'm clueless about that comment.

[Victor Robinson]

Finishing school back in the day women went to learn proper educate how to set a table, put on make up, stuff like that:rolleyes:

Along the same vein, it's interesting how high school classes like home ec, woodshop, autoshop, etc. have been mostly done away with. This is in large part due to budget issues, but also because these "paths" reinforced gender roles. Boys did autoshop or woodshop and the girls cooked and sewed in home ec. I'd love to see some of these make a comeback into early education. It's not about mom cooking for the family, but that there's a value to SOMEONE knowing how to do it. It's not that dad has to change the oil, but there should be some pride and knowledge about maintaining your car or house - who cares if that's mom or dad or mom2 or dad2. In de-emphasizing gender roles, we're also as a whole losing a lot of skills and values that really extend beyond gender lines.

Then again, I'm the same guy who pointed out how easy it is to learn how to do just about anything thanks to the innernets, so perhaps the education system is best focused on teaching kids how to access the information they want/need.

[Larry Frank]

When my kids were growing up, they also had the obligation to do cleaning, cooking, washing clothes, mowing, snow shoveling, tire changing, auto maintenance etc. That went for both boys and girls.

I am amazed at the number of kids these days who can not do these things. Too many can not even boil water.

[Rich Engelhardt]

When my kids were growing up, they also had the obligation to do cleaning, cooking, washing clothes, mowing, snow shoveling, tire changing, auto maintenance etc. That went for both boys and girls.

I am amazed at the number of kids these days who can not do these things. Too many can not even boil water.
Here's a bit of irony.....

When I was a senior in high school, I had an open class in my schedule. I was "given" a choice between public speaking and home ec for a class to take.
I told them I wanted to take home ec.
The principal had a fit & told me the only reason I wanted that was because I was a troublemaker. He insisted I take public speaking.
I ended up getting tossed out of the public speaking class after the third class. (long story....)

The real irony is that I was 18 years old & in the last couple months of high school.
I got married shortly after I graduated & ended up being a single parent of two kids within a few years of graduation.

I had to learn everything about "home ec", on the fly. :D :D.

I don't recall ever in my life having to use the public speaking class ;).

[paul cottingham]

I took several years of cooking in high school in the 70's. No-one even blinked. Mind you, the principal at my high school was rightly terrified of my mother.

stood me in good stead later in life. Cooking put me thru three degrees in university.

[Charlie Velasquez]

Along the same vein, it's interesting how high school classes like home ec, woodshop, autoshop, etc. have been mostly done away with. This is in large part due to budget issues, but also because these "paths" reinforced gender roles. Boys did autoshop or woodshop and the girls cooked and sewed in home ec. ...Our district is cutting back on the voc tech classes. But prior to that it was required of ALL students to take a semester of woodshop and a semester of home ec.

[Jerome Stanek]

I think all schools should teach basic how to living. how to change a tire, how to get a passport, how to fill out a tax return, how to swim and other real life stuff.

[Tom Stenzel]

And to think I started to read this thread after watching an episode of Xena the Warrior Princess! :eek:

-Tom

[Dan Hunkele]

Holding a door is a common courtesy but men are more likely to say thank you.

[Erik Loza]

Holding a door is a common courtesy but men are more likely to say thank you.

I always get the door as a matter of general courtesy but sometimes, a lady will behave awkwardly or not say thanks. Maybe they think you're trying to hit on them or that they now owe you a conversation or something, though that's not how I view it. Just want to be courteous, regardless of gender.

Erik

[Chuck Wintle]

Along the same vein, it's interesting how high school classes like home ec, woodshop, autoshop, etc. have been mostly done away with. This is in large part due to budget issues, but also because these "paths" reinforced gender roles. Boys did autoshop or woodshop and the girls cooked and sewed in home ec. I'd love to see some of these make a comeback into early education. It's not about mom cooking for the family, but that there's a value to SOMEONE knowing how to do it. It's not that dad has to change the oil, but there should be some pride and knowledge about maintaining your car or house - who cares if that's mom or dad or mom2 or dad2. In de-emphasizing gender roles, we're also as a whole losing a lot of skills and values that really extend beyond gender lines.

Then again, I'm the same guy who pointed out how easy it is to learn how to do just about anything thanks to the innernets, so perhaps the education system is best focused on teaching kids how to access the information they want/need.

Thats why there is such an epidemic of fast food...no one knows how to cook anymore..male or female/

[Prashun Patel]

My pet peeve is when I hold the door open for KIDS, and they don't even look up as if they fully anticipate the door to open by itself. Then you get the kid that not only says thanks, but takes over holding the door for the remaining people and you think, 'i wish my kids could see this'.