Cut the cord and throw the battery away

[Denny Tudor]

I have 4 power tools - a ryobi table saw, a 30 year old Sears RAS, a decent delta bench press and a Milwaukee 18v set predominantly used in home repairs( except for the drill. No planer, sander, jointer, router.----- most of what I do is by hand.

i was was wondering how many of you cut the cord and threw away the batteries COMPLETELY. In your shop . Would be interest to hear you tales. I am remodeling a corner of the pole arm for new on our new place and am close to doing it.

Looking forward to hearing you tales of withdrawal.

denny

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here but I would not be without my battery operated drill and driver. It's just so much easier to grab one and take it to the work - compared to grabbing a tailed drill and finding a place to plug it in, and then dealing with the cord pulling on the tool when you're using it.

Other tools are corded. You don't have much choice on the table saw, jointer, planer, lathe, router, etc.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Denny,

My main power tools are a drill press, band saw, lathe and an 18v DeWalt drill. The RAS is mostly used by my wife and the portable belt sander is used for metal about as much as it is used for wood. There are a few others stowed away that seldom get used.

I really do not have 'tales of withdrawal' since most of my work was always done without power until a few power tools were acquired.

For some aspects of woodworking power tools can be handy. For others they are just a noise generator.

For projects outside the shop the only power tool is usually the battery powered drill.

One of the most useful non-power tools in those situations is a good pair of sawhorses.

jtk

[Denny Tudor]

I guess i wasn't as clear as I thought . Figured posting on this board it would be understood that by saying " cut the cord and throw the batteries away " mean going totally hand tools no power what so ever!!

perhaps there are as many true Neanderthals as I thought or hoped for. NINO's


Jim you got that right about saw horses. In fact I use mine so much i am thinking about just thick plank bench top on top of two Japanese style trestle saw horses in the new shop.. Lot of flexibility there .

[Frederick Skelly]

There are a lot of True Neanders on this board and I'm sure they'll chime in. In fact, Warren Mickley is a pro who - as I understand it - uses only handtools.

Speaking personally, I prefer to let my machines do the "heavy work" (preparing and dimensioning stock) and use my hand tools for "fine work" (joinery, finishing work like fitting inset drawers, final smoothing). I don't personally enjoy ripping boards to width by hand. But many guys here do.

Good luck Denny.
Fred

[Jim Koepke]

My planes and chisels do a lot more work than any of my power tools. It is handy to be able to rip a piece in quick order on the band saw instead of moving things around to rip it by hand.

jtk

[Normand Leblanc]

My woodworking for furniture making is entirely unplugged...even the grinder is manual. It's obviously much longer than to power plane a board but I like it quiet, safe and no dust (or hardly). On top of that it's a hobby and I don't even need furniture, I have what I need. So, going faster with power tools is out of the question.

I do have some electric tools for general purpose work but I find myself doing most of that work with my manual tools. A 3" swing brace is a wonderful screwdriver.

[paul cottingham]

I do grunt work (long rips, removing large amounts of material from boards etc.) with power. If my hands were in better shape, I would do everything Neander, it is definitely much better suited to my temperament. So I use a bandsaw, a mortiser, a planer and an old delta drill press when I use power. I still have a table saw, but don't remember the last time I used it.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have not used a power sander in a very long time (except in grinding knives). That used to be my power tool cheat but I learned to get a better finish EASIER with hand tools. I have done numerous small projects all by hand, but ripping is where I stop. I use a circular saw for any large ripped dimensions.

[Brian Holcombe]

perhaps there are as many true Neanderthals as I thought or hoped for.

Hi!

Perhaps give it a few hours, being a holiday weekend and all...

[Brent Cutshall]

Uh-oh, another hand tools/power tools thread. But who am I kidding, I can't wait to hear the stories that will churn out of this. My story is that I can't afford power tools, but I don't think I would use them if I had them.

[Pat Barry]

You can easily unplug those machines and set them in a corner of your pole arn for a year and do everything with hand tools. I fail to see why anyone with a decent battery drill driver would think about throwing that away though. Thats borderline insanity - LOL

[Mike Allen1010]

Bandsaw for re-sawing, dril press and cordless drills. I started w/ TS and all power tools many years ago but have come to appreciate dimensions stock and joinery w/ handsaws and planes.

Caveat; I like hand tool friendly woods and probably spend too much time keeping edge tools sharp.

I could live without the drill press, but it is a time saver when I have lots of mortises.

I'm sure all Neanderthal is easily doable, but for an old, fat, impatient guy like me, not 100% preferable.

More important: on behalf of a grateful nation, THANKS TO ALL WHO SERVE !

See the the classifieds for tiny gesture.

"only easy day was yesterday "

Cheers, Mile

[Denny Tudor]

Bandsaw for re-sawing, dril press and cordless drills. I started w/ TS and all power tools many years ago but have come to appreciate dimensions stock and joinery w/ handsaws and planes.

Caveat; I like hand tool friendly woods and probably spend too much time keeping edge tools sharp.

I could live without the drill press, but it is a time saver when I have lots of mortises.

I'm sure all Neanderthal is easily doable, but for an old, fat, impatient guy like me, not 100% preferable.

More important: on behalf of a grateful nation, THANKS TO ALL WHO SERVE !

See the the classifieds for tiny gesture.

"only easy day was yesterday "

Cheers, Mile

i agree but today is not Veterans Day . It is Memorial Day - a day To thank those that gave the full measure .

[Phil Mueller]

Nice Mike...and thank you for your service!

To the OPs question, I'm moving in that direction. All crosscuts are now handsaw then shooting. Rip is a mix of handsaw and contractor saw. I dimension/square one face and both edges by hand; final thickness usually comes from a lunch box planer. Joinery is now 100% hand tools, with the exception of the large mortises for my work bench...combo of drill press and corded drill used there. Most drilling/counterboring by hand. Larger curved work gets roughed out with a jig saw. Tapered legs and such come from the contractor saw. A palm sander is still in the mix. Getting better at using planes, spokeshaves, scrapers and the like to finish up what the power tools left.

Frankly, I hate the noise and dust, and the effort to pull out and set up power tools (my shop is small, so pwer tools are all tucked away and need to be pulled out for each use). In some cases it's just a matter of efficiency...in some it's weighing the risk of ruining a piece from lack of hand tool skill.

My next goal is to become a better hand sawyer for rip cuts and resawing...

[Luke Dupont]

I'd love to have a planer and a bandsaw just to get my stock to rough dimensions, but as I do not have the luxury of space, money, or noise that those things require, I do everything by hand.

I have a jigsaw and an electric drill, but I rarely have need of them after acquiring a good brace and bit and making a number of bow saws, either of which tend to do as good or better a job in a comparable amount of time.

[Allan Speers]

This thread has me thinking about making a cordless tracksaw:

A slotted base in which fits a Disston D7, then the base rides along my EZ track.

You know, so I can saw a straight, 90 degree line line every time. ;)



Yes, I'm kidding.

To answer the OP: I would never give up my (corded) tracksaw, as I work a lot with plywood. Also my cordless drill, and my Bandsaw. That's about it.

Well, a good work light is nice, too. Those old whale oil lamps can be dangerous.

[Matt Knights]

I have done fully unplugged for a few years now, the hardest part is resawing on a hot summers day so I went and bought a 16" bandsaw. Buying the bandsaw has made cuts like the one below a breeze (I think it was 9" sapele), its all good as long as you have the right tools for the job (I also bought a 3tpi 30" rip saw). TBH I would not be without my bandsaw now and would recommend one to any unplugged woodworker just to do the arduous jobs like resawing.

338396

Matt

[Luke Dupont]

I have done fully unplugged for a few years now, the hardest part is resawing on a hot summers day so I went and bought a 16" bandsaw. Buying the bandsaw has made cuts like the one below a breeze (I think it was 9" sapele), its all good as long as you have the right tools for the job (I also bought a 3tpi 30" rip saw). TBH I would not be without my bandsaw now and would recommend one to any unplugged woodworker just to do the arduous jobs like resawing.

338396

Matt


Hm... I guess one doesn't even need a planer with a bandsaw. I was thinking I'd want one to thickness stock, but you could always just resaw it.

When I have the space and noise-making freedom available to me, the bandsaw will probably be my first and last power tool purchase. I can't think of anything else I would need - other than, maybe, a lathe if I want to get into turning.

[Matt Knights]

Hm... I guess one doesn't even need a planer with a bandsaw. I was thinking I'd want one to thickness stock, but you could always just resaw it.

When I have the space and noise-making freedom available to me, the bandsaw will probably be my first and last power tool purchase. I can't think of anything else I would need - other than, maybe, a lathe if I want to get into turning.

All it needs is a quick going over with the jack plane then the smoother/try plane (depending on the size). I would never dream of having a planer/thicknesser too noisy and too much dust.

matt

[Bruce Haugen]

All it needs is a quick going over with the jack plane then the smoother/try plane (depending on the size). I would never dream of having a planer/thicknesser too noisy and too much dust.

matt

Even Patrick Leach has a power planer. He once said it's the one power tool he'd never give up. And he has more handtools than you do. Or me. Or anyone else, except maybe Rob Lee.

[Brian Holcombe]

I dont own a power planer, or a bandsaw, but given the amount of stock I resaw by hand I can certainly understand someone wanting to use a bandsaw for the job. I'm personally researching saws that can do the job exceptionally well. My Disston works well up to about 4-5" stock, my largest ryoba is the same, I have an anahiki that works up to about that level as well but works a little faster.

What is really needed however, when it comes to wide stock is about 1 TPI or even larger. That is a rare bird in terms of hand saws, maybe Maebiki nokogiri are about it.

Cabinet work does involve a lot of resawing if you like to match stock well.

[Mike Cherry]

I have a tv and a little Ryobi bench top bandsaw that sits on my garage floor unplugged. I have a thickness planer that was given to me by A good friend, but I admit I haven't worked out dust collection yet. My dust collection consists of a broom and a dust pan, and sometimes a shopvac. I got a bench grinder with a CBN wheel as well.

I think, with some dust collection, I could see myself using the thickness planer. I have considered a good 17" bandsaw but I'd rather build a framesaw and try that first.

[Mike Holbrook]

Although discussion on this forum is centered on hand tools it isn't easy to totally cut the cord sf throw out the batteries, especially all at once. It takes time to learn to sharpen, use hand planes and other hand tools for specific work. Certainly if one wants to saw everything by hand one needs to learn to saw but also learn to tune and sharpen saws.

I have tried to pick one area and learn how to do a specific type of work by hand. I was practicing planing glued up panels earlier. I decided to remove the wind from all 8 panels with my planes and then run them through my small planer as the work is for outside shutters on the house not furniture. I have been working on ways to get more out of my braces and hand drills too. I just ordered Wera I/4" bits, drills, sockets and adapters that I will be able to use in hand or power tools.

I'm not sure most people just go cold turkey. I am guessing most of us still switch the lights on before we can find our hand tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

Denny,

You asked about a planing bench previously, David Wong (DJ) is a regular here, he has built and uses a very beautiful planing bench. If you are into Japanese tools, I think you'll find yourself right at home here.

Cheers
Brian

[john zulu]

I went through about 1 year on pondering which equipment I need to buy.
After resawing a few long boards of hardwood. A bandsaw is needed.
Turning - lathe. Pole lathe too much room taken.
Drill press - The hand drill does not cut it. Frostner bit and big drill are now accessible and controllable.
Tracksaw - Plywood

I decided not buying a tablesaw. Partly due to the dangers.

[Derek Cohen]

I spent many years without a powered jointer or planer/thicknesser, relying on handplanes and/or together with a tablesaw or bandsaw. It was good experience but I do not see it as important (as some obviously do) in furniture making (unless, of course, one simply lacks the space or cannot justify the expense, which was my situation for a number of years). After all, much of the basic prep work could have been done in shops staffed by apprentices. Also, in days of olde (whateverthatmeans), it was possible to purchase timber sawn to thickness. Rough prep work is just rough prep work. It is what happens after this that is relevant. There is a lot of handtool work that still needs to get done. That is where I want to spend most of my time.

The bandsaw is the most important apprentice in the shop. You can get by with a #5, a #7 and a bandsaw. Plane one side flat, and re-saw to thickness.

These days I use a combination jointer-thicknesser (a Hammer A3-31 with helix head). It is a wonderful machine. Still, I often just thickness smaller pieces by hand as it is no big deal. A combo machine is the way to go in a small shop. Indeed, I explained why in the latest Popular Woodworking magazine (look for the End Grain article). This probably passed most by :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

It's an important skill building tool to dimension by hand. In your case I do appreciate your interest in moving to a jointer/plane, between the woods that you prefer and your having done the job for quite some time and building the skill set. I think it is a mistake to say that it is in a category of its own and not included in the relevant work.

When you have the skill set you can approach very large timbers without issue. Slab tables are incredibly popular on the USA's East Coast due primarily to Nakashima's influence. Often times there are slabs being utilized that are far larger than can be reasonable expected to be worked by machine, so people work them with a combination of hand tools and hand held power planers. If you have the skill to understand dimensioning then that work is going to go forward nicely. That skill is really only developed through time spent doing it by hand and thinking about your efforts and fixing your failures.

[Steve Voigt]

I spent many years without a powered jointer or planer/thicknesser, relying on handplanes and/or together with a tablesaw or bandsaw. It was good experience but I do not see it as important (as some obviously do) in furniture making (unless, of course, one simply lacks the space or cannot justify the expense, which was my situation for a number of years). After all, much of the basic prep work could have been done in shops staffed by apprentices. Also, in days of olde (whateverthatmeans), it was possible to purchase timber sawn to thickness. Rough prep work is just rough prep work. It is what happens after this that is relevant.

I really could not disagree more, Derek. Basic dimensioning work builds skill, as Brian mentioned. Cutting joinery is easier if you can rip and crosscut with a coarse saw. Today, most people learn backwards (I did too); they start with dovetail saws and smoothing planes when they should start with big handsaws and Jack planes. I'm convinced that the agony many people go through learning to cut dovetails or M & Ts could be avoided by beginning at the beginning. Doesn't necessarily mean that one has to keep doing that forever, but it's an invaluable stage. I always cringe at the talk of "apprentices," because any skilled maker of the past would have learned and become fluent at the basic stuff from an early age.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Steve

I think that you are reading more into what I wrote than is there. First of all, I was describing my journey, and that I have reached a point where the rough work is no longer something I wish to spend too much of my limited time on with handplanes. I think I have mastered handplanes reasonably well, and I really do not need the extra practice at this stage. I manage quite well to push a handplane over a board without stuffing it up :)

The question is whether "cordless" is the way for the OP to go? He wanted to know whether it can be done. The answer is, of course it can. The unasked question is 'how long is this viable?' - that is another matter. I offered my experience. Keep in mind that I am 66 - probably as old as both you and Brian together :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

Derek, I don't think I "read into" what you wrote; on the contrary, I took what you wrote literally...apparently your intended meaning was different. What you actually wrote seemed pretty clear: "I do not see it [basic dimensioning] as important...rough prep work is just rough prep work...it is what happens after this that is relevant."

In any case, my point was simply that prep work, or dimensioning, builds skill. It's not "just " prep work. Obviously you've done your share, and that no doubt has something to do with the high degree of facility you have. Whether one wants to continue with that indefinitely is an entirely personal choice, and I'm sure I will feel differently when I'm 66 than I do now! FWIW, I use machines when I'm on the clock, and I work only by hand when I'm building furniture for fun, on my own time (except for the grinder and the electric lightbulb...there are always exceptions...

[Pat Barry]

If people want skill building and labor expenditure then by all means use the handsaws for rough dimensioning, stock breakdown, etc. My thought is use the best tool you have available for the job at hand. If its ripping or cross-cutting then I can do that a lot better and faster with a power tool - in fact - anyone and everyone can. If you have to do some curved rip cuts for s decorative item then by all means use your bandsaw if you have one. If you need to create a table leg and you have a lathe then go ahead and use it. I think the idea that should be in play, unless its purely to be a learning experience, is use your tools for the best benefit to you. Its senseless to insist that hand tools are the only way to do something, but if thats what floats your boat, be our guest.

[Jim Koepke]

... My thought is use the best tool you have available for the job at hand. ...

I think those words of wisdom have been repeated throughout the age of Man.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

If people want skill building and labor expenditure then by all means use the handsaws for rough dimensioning, stock breakdown, etc. My thought is use the best tool you have available for the job at hand. If its ripping or cross-cutting then I can do that a lot better and faster with a power tool - in fact - anyone and everyone can. If you have to do some curved rip cuts for s decorative item then by all means use your bandsaw if you have one. If you need to create a table leg and you have a lathe then go ahead and use it. I think the idea that should be in play, unless its purely to be a learning experience, is use your tools for the best benefit to you. Its senseless to insist that hand tools are the only way to do something, but if thats what floats your boat, be our guest.

Masahiko Kimura is one of the best bonsai artists in Japan. A student of his recalled that early on Masahiko-san had him weed his lawn with tweezers and wash his car daily. After a month of this the student complained, Masahiko-san's reply was that the better he could weed the lawn the better he would be at bonsai. That student is currently one of the best in US and IIRC he's in his early 30's.

[Phil Stone]

Its senseless to insist that hand tools are the only way to do something, but if thats what floats your boat, be our guest.

I don't think I've ever seen that said here, to be fair. I've seen many saying that they prefer to do it that way, and that there are benefits, but I think this discussion often turns into an argument because of strawmen such as this.

Personally, I love it that there are folks all along the neander/power spectrum here, and I can learn from every one of them.

[Pat Barry]

Sounds like a scene or two from Karate Kid. Wax on, wax off!

[Brian Holcombe]

Same idea, hah!

[Denny Tudor]

Hi!

Perhaps give it a few hours, being a holiday weekend and all...


I was hoping you were right but alas it wasn't so was it. Nino's.

I find it interesting that the Pinacle of America furniture making ( at least in my humble opinion) were the Townsends and Goddards - the ones so many try to emulate - with power tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

Denny, I didn't post my 'struggle' because I find hand tools practical and enjoyable and probably more practical than most small shop power tools. I'm at about 95% hand tools.

I'm lost about 'nino's'.

[Bruce Haugen]

I'm lost about 'nino's'.

Neanderthal In Name Only

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Bruce.

[James Waldron]

I was hoping you were right but alas it wasn't so was it. Nino's.

I find it interesting that the Pinacle of America furniture making ( at least in my humble opinion) were the Townsends and Goddards - the ones so many try to emulate - with power tools.

At the point of gaining their esteemed reputations, it is quite unlikely that the Townsends and Goddards spent any of their time rough dimensioning lumber for their beautiful works. They had apprentices to do that scut work, as their time was much too valuable to waste on drudgery. Does that make them "NINO's"? And how is giving the roughing work to a band saw any worse than giving it to an apprentice?

I think patronizing the locals isn't that good an idea.

[Kees Heiden]

The point being, Towsend and Goddard ALSO spend several years apprenticing before they became master. So they mastered the rough work before their more evolved work.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Masahiko Kimura is one of the best bonsai artists in Japan. A student of his recalled that early on Masahiko-san had him weed his lawn with tweezers and wash his car daily. After a month of this the student complained, Masahiko-san's reply was that the better he could weed the lawn the better he would be at bonsai. That student is currently one of the best in US and IIRC he's in his early 30's.

...not to mention, he's pretty darned good at washing cars too!

[James Waldron]

The point being, Towsend and Goddard ALSO spend several years apprenticing before they became master. So they mastered the rough work before their more evolved work.


But they didn't build their estimable reputations on their work as apprentices. I grant you your point; they had to build all those skills just as the rest of us did, but to call us "NINO's" because we don't (still) do apprentice work is a insult.

I know some us still do the roughing by hand. To each his own. I don't have enough time left on this earth to spend a lot of it roughing and resawing stock. I'll pass that off to my "apprentices" and devote my time to the more demanding aspects of the work. While I'm no Townsend or Goddard, I am a bit past the apprentice stage.

For those who are new to the craft, by all means be sure to spend enough time on apprentice level work to build those critical skills. But when one's got them honed to an effective level of skill, it's no sin against mankind to move ahead in the craft and spend time on the more demanding aspects of the work. Or it's also no problem if you want to continue to do the apprentice work yourself and don't use that bandsaw (or battery driven screwdriver or drill press or etc.) I don't have the time to be both apprentice and journeyman. (I can't pretend to be a master. Perhaps I may attain such a level of skill someday. That's what I strive for.)

[Brian Holcombe]

The point being, Towsend and Goddard ALSO spend several years apprenticing before they became master. So they mastered the rough work before their more evolved work.

That's exactly what my Bonsai point was driving at. As a kid (teenager) I wanted to work on engines for fun, but wanted to get good at it. I worked at a local machine shop under the head machinist and when I started I did the drudgery work, cleaning blocks, heads, running the glass bead machine and the tumbler, cleaning the machines, ect. The owner told me that he himself as the owner was capable of doing everyone from repairing the shop toilet all the way on through the finest work, and that it would be quite embarrassing to not know the fundamental work if you were ever at a shop that did not know your qualifications (IE you could be damned good at grinding the seats in Porsche heads but if you can't break down a piece of junk caked in sludge you'd likely never get a chance to prove your ability).


...not to mention, he's pretty darned good at washing cars too!

:D

[Steve Voigt]

The point being, Towsend and Goddard ALSO spend several years apprenticing before they became master. So they mastered the rough work before their more evolved work.


Yes, this was my point exactly.

Actually, IIRC from the Townsend book (http://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpublications/john_townsend_newport_cabinetmaker), John Townsend didn't even build the cabinets on his mature pieces; he worked exclusively on the carving and left the building to his assistants. But he was born into a family of very high end cabinetmakers, and almost certainly learned the basics of cabinetmaking at a very young age, before any formal apprenticeship had started. And then the apprenticeship would have been heavy on the basics of trying, thicknessing, dimensioning with handsaws, etc.

I think of Townsend as being a lot like Mozart. He was born into the family trade and learned it so young that practicing it was as natural as speaking.

[Steve Voigt]

I'm at about 95% hand tools.

I'm lost about 'nino's'.

According to the Book of Neanderthal, when you die, if you have been sufficiently pure, you will ascend to Neanderthal Heaven, where you'll be surrounded by angels sporting Disston saws, North Bros. braces…and nothing else.

But for you, Brian Holcombe, there will be no heaven, because you insisted on using that damn Festool track saw. In some variants of the Neanderthal faith, an indulgence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence) can be purchased for a bandsaw, but never for a tracksaw.

[Derek Cohen]

But they didn't build their estimable reputations on their work as apprentices. I grant you your point; they had to build all those skills just as the rest of us did, but to call us "NINO's" because we don't (still) do apprentice work is a insult.

I know some us still do the roughing by hand. To each his own. I don't have enough time left on this earth to spend a lot of it roughing and resawing stock. I'll pass that off to my "apprentices" and devote my time to the more demanding aspects of the work. While I'm no Townsend or Goddard, I am a bit past the apprentice stage.

For those who are new to the craft, by all means be sure to spend enough time on apprentice level work to build those critical skills. But when one's got them honed to an effective level of skill, it's no sin against mankind to move ahead in the craft and spend time on the more demanding aspects of the work. Or it's also no problem if you want to continue to do the apprentice work yourself and don't use that bandsaw (or battery driven screwdriver or drill press or etc.) I don't have the time to be both apprentice and journeyman. (I can't pretend to be a master. Perhaps I may attain such a level of skill someday. That's what I strive for.)

Thank you James. That was my point exactly.

I think that it is silly arguing that one way is better than another. There simply is no such thing. I agree that for most there is no shortcut to developing skills, and that practice makes perfect. At my stage I do not feel that I have the time or the inclination to do donkey work. I prefer to focus on the design, construction and joinery. To imply that this is "better" or "worse" than another method shows intolerance. The only reason I posted what I do was to emphasise that (1) I used to do the donkey work with hand tools ... in other words (to the OP) it is a viable method, and (2) there is no shame if you choose to use apprentices for this part of the work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

According to the Book of Neanderthal, when you die, if you have been sufficiently pure, you will ascend to Neanderthal Heaven, where you'll be surrounded by angels sporting Disston saws, North Bros. braces…and nothing else.

But for you, Brian Holcombe, there will be no heaven, because you insisted on using that damn Festool track saw. In some variants of the Neanderthal faith, an indulgence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence) can be purchased for a bandsaw, but never for a tracksaw.

Hahaha :D I suspect my purgatory will be hand ripping thick stock for a few thousand years....but in an eternity that should feel relatively quick.

[Dave Clarke]

[QUOTE=And how is giving the roughing work to a band saw any worse than giving it to an apprentice? [/QUOTE]

100% agreed!
The tailed apprentice saves time and equally important, saves wear and tear on the old bones!

[Warren Mickley]

Welcome to the forum, Dave.

There are some weird concepts in this thread. In the 18th century the master and the apprentice entered into a contract. The master was to teach the trade, the arts and mysteries, to the boy, and in return the boy worked in the business. The idea was that it was a mutual agreement where both profited. The boy is not just a slave.

It would be nice if this option were available to boys today. Instead they can go to a trade school with tuition which their parents pay, or they come away with heavy debts and no experience working in a commercial shop. And if a craftsman trains a boy in any kind of sophisticated trade, he is out a lot of money if the boy gets tired of it before making the training worthwhile. George Nakashima said "they leave after six months, I am out thousands of dollars and they don't even say thank you." The master invests heavily at the beginning of training and receives his dividends toward the end.

You want the boy up and contributing to the business as soon as possible. Frankly it is a lot easier to teach a boy to dovetail neatly and efficiently than to teach him to prepare stock, which is much more complicated. Rob Cosman will teach you to dovetail in a Saturday workshop; he is not going to teach stock preparation in that time. Those who see it as "grunt work" fail to see the complexity or the art of it. And in a shop with several guys, the older guys weren't going to sit around and wait while some new kid finishes up trying boards before they can go to work.

Some guys imagine that apprentices sharpened tools. I would teach a boy to sharpen the tools he works with but not the ones I work with. I think guys are just fantasizing that apprentices did the work that they themselves are not very efficient at.

[john zulu]

I spent many years without a powered jointer or planer/thicknesser, relying on handplanes and/or together with a tablesaw or bandsaw. It was good experience but I do not see it as important (as some obviously do) in furniture making (unless, of course, one simply lacks the space or cannot justify the expense, which was my situation for a number of years). After all, much of the basic prep work could have been done in shops staffed by apprentices. Also, in days of olde (whateverthatmeans), it was possible to purchase timber sawn to thickness. Rough prep work is just rough prep work. It is what happens after this that is relevant. There is a lot of handtool work that still needs to get done. That is where I want to spend most of my time.

The bandsaw is the most important apprentice in the shop. You can get by with a #5, a #7 and a bandsaw. Plane one side flat, and re-saw to thickness.

These days I use a combination jointer-thicknesser (a Hammer A3-31 with helix head). It is a wonderful machine. Still, I often just thickness smaller pieces by hand as it is no big deal. A combo machine is the way to go in a small shop. Indeed, I explained why in the latest Popular Woodworking magazine (look for the End Grain article). This probably passed most by :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I agree on the combi jointer/planer. That is on my next list. My last big tool purchase. I have 11/9 room only to house my equipment.

[John Kananis]

Welcome to the forum, Dave.

There are some weird concepts in this thread. In the 18th century the master and the apprentice entered into a contract. The master was to teach the trade, the arts and mysteries, to the boy, and in return the boy worked in the business. The idea was that it was a mutual agreement where both profited. The boy is not just a slave.

It would be nice if this option were available to boys today. Instead they can go to a trade school with tuition which their parents pay, or they come away with heavy debts and no experience working in a commercial shop. And if a craftsman trains a boy in any kind of sophisticated trade, he is out a lot of money if the boy gets tired of it before making the training worthwhile. George Nakashima said "they leave after six months, I am out thousands of dollars and they don't even say thank you." The master invests heavily at the beginning of training and receives his dividends toward the end.

You want the boy up and contributing to the business as soon as possible. Frankly it is a lot easier to teach a boy to dovetail neatly and efficiently than to teach him to prepare stock, which is much more complicated. Rob Cosman will teach you to dovetail in a Saturday workshop; he is not going to teach stock preparation in that time. Those who see it as "grunt work" fail to see the complexity or the art of it. And in a shop with several guys, the older guys weren't going to sit around and wait while some new kid finishes up trying boards before they can go to work.

Some guys imagine that apprentices sharpened tools. I would teach a boy to sharpen the tools he works with but not the ones I work with. I think guys are just fantasizing that apprentices did the work that they themselves are not very efficient at.


Well stated (IMHO).

[Denny Tudor]

You are missing the point a -Neanderthal wood worker is or isn't . It is that simple you use all hand tools ( neaddrthal . ) or you don't . Some could be called hybrid some could be called normites but if one uses any power tools at all you simply can not be a neardetthal wood worker .. Period.
Not sure what apprenticing has to do with the issue. Heck you could apprentice on a ryobi .

Kind of like. Being half pregnant

[Derek Cohen]

You are missing the point a -Neanderthal wood worker is or isn't . It is that simple you use all hand tools ( neaddrthal . ) or you don't . Some could be called hybrid some could be called normites but if one uses any power tools at all you simply can not be a neardetthal wood worker .. Period.
Not sure what apprenticing has to do with the issue. Heck you could apprentice on a ryobi .

Kind of like. Being half pregnant

This is another reason I posted what I do. Treating woodworking as if it is a religious movement (called the Neanderthals), with rules that are black or white ... well, that is just plain silly. I certainly prefer handtools, and indeed they are the main thrust of my website, but to argue that because woodworkers in 1750 did not use electricity, and therefore powered apprentices are infra dig, well ... The Shakers are renowned for their design and craftsmanship. And they invented the tablesaw. I imagine our forefathers would have jumped at the opportunity to use powered tools if they could. I do not see power as a replacement for hand skills, only some hand tool use. In varying proportions, power and hand skills compliment one another. New pathways are opened by one - this may be a powertool doing something that a handtool cannot, or vice versa. Don't be limited by a blind allegiance to some imagined methodology. I want to encourage hand tool users, rather scare away those who are intimidated by rules that are being invented by some on the forums.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Clarke]

Thanks for the welcome, Warren.


Just figured out that I’ve been lurking around the Creek for more than 4 years! Searched for a thread for new member introductions and found several scattered about.
Not sure where I should post but this seems as good a place as any (Mods please move if needed).


I “retired” as a toolmaker/machinist 10 years ago. Dove into the pit of WW hand tools about 12 years ago. It began when a friend who was making bow saws asked me to make a jig to guide a cut right in the center of small dowels. He was working almost exclusively with hand tools at the time. I also made him a punch and die to pierce the blades for his bow saws. He returned the favor with two finely made bow saws!
Well, I caught the Neanderthal fever after looking at his tools and methods. Always admiring handcrafted items, I now had more than just a peripheral interest in woodworking, including the early methods and designs. Although I like fine work, I enjoy using a hatchet as much as a finely tuned hand plane.


Returning to the subject of this thread, I’m not ashamed of using electrical muscle and yes, I could do without. In fact, I find it more satisfying to feel the wood fibers yield under my own power. After years of working in machine shops, I’ve grown weary of the sound of power tools. Earmuffs are our friends.
A few years ago I made a crude shave horse with the intention of using only muscle power. A chainsaw was used to cut the trees and other than a little help from a cordless drill, the rest was entirely butchered by hand, outside near the fire pit (easy clean up!) I also made a rough hewn stool with “storm fall” trees on the property. Almost entirely made with a hatchet but I roughed the mortises in the seat with an electric drill. The final fit was made with chisels and drawknife. In an effort to keep it primitive, no glue was used and the joints are holding well thru the change of several seasons. Score one for the Neanderthal!


Cheers, All!
Dave

[Augusto Orosco]

You are missing the point a -Neanderthal wood worker is or isn't . It is that simple you use all hand tools ( neaddrthal . ) or you don't . Some could be called hybrid some could be called normites but if one uses any power tools at all you simply can not be a neardetthal wood worker .. Period.
Not sure what apprenticing has to do with the issue. Heck you could apprentice on a ryobi .

Kind of like. Being half pregnant

Yes, but the "half pregnant" forum doesn't ring as appealing as the Neander one :D

There is no shame (at least none in my book) to any path, from Norm to Neander. But I think the OP's initial post was simply asking those who transitioned exclusively to hand tools (not worth going down the Byzantine route of discussing using candles vs. electric light) to share their "tales of withdrawal" because he is contemplating it.

So, to the OP's original question, I can't share a bona fide tale of full transition because I am certainly not a Neander, even though I prefer hand tools for the most part. I did fantasize about it, but couldn't do it: I quickly bought a combo machine and bandsaw after a few weeks of attempting to build a Roubo bench from rough lumber only with hand tools. So, my tale is more one of relapse than one of withdrawal :).

[Kees Heiden]

Welcome to the forum, Dave.

There are some weird concepts in this thread. In the 18th century the master and the apprentice entered into a contract. The master was to teach the trade, the arts and mysteries, to the boy, and in return the boy worked in the business. The idea was that it was a mutual agreement where both profited. The boy is not just a slave.

It would be nice if this option were available to boys today. Instead they can go to a trade school with tuition which their parents pay, or they come away with heavy debts and no experience working in a commercial shop. And if a craftsman trains a boy in any kind of sophisticated trade, he is out a lot of money if the boy gets tired of it before making the training worthwhile. George Nakashima said "they leave after six months, I am out thousands of dollars and they don't even say thank you." The master invests heavily at the beginning of training and receives his dividends toward the end.

You want the boy up and contributing to the business as soon as possible. Frankly it is a lot easier to teach a boy to dovetail neatly and efficiently than to teach him to prepare stock, which is much more complicated. Rob Cosman will teach you to dovetail in a Saturday workshop; he is not going to teach stock preparation in that time. Those who see it as "grunt work" fail to see the complexity or the art of it. And in a shop with several guys, the older guys weren't going to sit around and wait while some new kid finishes up trying boards before they can go to work.

Some guys imagine that apprentices sharpened tools. I would teach a boy to sharpen the tools he works with but not the ones I work with. I think guys are just fantasizing that apprentices did the work that they themselves are not very efficient at.

It is not easy to get a good idea of the actual education program of a young apprentice. You know, there aren't any curiculums of decreets from the ministery from that time. I suppose every shop was a little different, and not every master was as good a teacher. We do have an account of an apprentice ship in the form of a little book: "The joiner and cabinet maker" from the 19th century. I don't remember exactly, so please correct where I go wrong. As far as I remember the book, the young apprentice starts with very simple jobs, like sweeping the floor, sorting the offcuts, tending the fire etc. He can prove his willingness to work with these jobs. Then he gets his first simple projects. I remember a packing box and a chicken coop. He certainly didn't start with dovetails! First he must learn to saw and to plane a board to size.

Another thing obvious is that an apprentice is appointed to one of the journeymen to work alongside with him. It is a not a far fetched idea that the journeyman would first give hime simple jobs he doesn't like doing himself, only when the boy proves his worth will he be set to do more complicated tasks. When he has proven that he can prepare a board in a worthwhile manner, he will be given more and more of his share of the workload. I also remember some old French movies where you see the same cooperation between a journeyman and an aprentence. One shouldn't romantise this cooperation too much though. The young boys were pressed into production mode as soon as possible, and not every teacher was a worthwhile one!

The work of the master in a shop would depend very much on the size of the shop and the scale of the work. Small shops would see the master doing all kinds of work himself. In a very large shop, the master would be more like a business man, running the shop like a modern manager, client relations, counting his money etc.

Nonetheless, it is not a bad idea for a modern woodworker to put some time into learning how to prepare boards by hand, sawing and planing. Even when you decide to do this with machines later on.

[Brian Holcombe]

I tend to agree, If one can resaw by hand and dimension by hand it likely makes for a much more effective machine user. I've seen people run stock over a jointer that was bowed and the result was a greater bow!

[Warren Mickley]

I don't think the "Joiner and Cabinet Maker" was written by someone who had an apprenticeship and worked in the trade. That is my opinion as someone who does work in the trade. It reads more like Salivet (dilettante) than Roubo (professional) and more like Moxon (former printer) than Nicholson (former cabinetmaker). All five of these books are valuable, but we must read them with different lenses.

I have taught teenagers (easier than older guys) and had them work in my shop. "It is not easy to get an good idea of the actual education program of a young apprentice". Well I would say yes, especially if you have never done anything like it.

[Pat Barry]

You are missing the point a -Neanderthal wood worker is or isn't . It is that simple you use all hand tools ( neaddrthal . ) or you don't . Some could be called hybrid some could be called normites but if one uses any power tools at all you simply can not be a neardetthal wood worker .. Period.
Not sure what apprenticing has to do with the issue. Heck you could apprentice on a ryobi .

Kind of like. Being half pregnant
I'm not sure I've seen any examples of Neanderthal woodworking Denny. I mean of course, historic Neanderthal period pieces (other than simple clubs). They didn't have any metal tools back then - maybe we should just reserve conversations here for woodworking with broken rocks.

[Denny Tudor]

Yes, but the "half pregnant" forum doesn't ring as appealing as the Neander one :D

There is no shame (at least none in my book) to any path, from Norm to Neander. But I think the OP's initial post was simply asking those who transitioned exclusively to hand tools (not worth going down the Byzantine route of discussing using candles vs. electric light) to share their "tales of withdrawal" because he is contemplating it.

So, to the OP's original question, I can't share a bona fide tale of full transition because I am certainly not a Neander, even though I prefer hand tools for the most part. I did fantasize about it, but couldn't do it: I quickly bought a combo machine and bandsaw after a few weeks of attempting to build a Roubo bench from rough lumber only with hand tools. So, my tale is more one of relapse than one of withdrawal :).


Thanks for feedback on your experience . That was what I ask originally.

Btw Your right . No shame in living any where on the spectrum from
Neander to hybrid to normutes. But still important to be accurate on labels isn't it.

[Kees Heiden]

I have taught teenagers (easier than older guys) and had them work in my shop. "It is not easy to get an good idea of the actual education program of a young apprentice". Well I would say yes, especially if you have never done anything like it.

Well, we have two or three students in the workshop every year. Different trade, but I suppose that means your remark isn't directed at me.

[Mike Holbrook]

Maybe working on becoming a Neander is a little like being a recovering alcoholic. Maybe it is a process more than a place you can exist in exclusively...

Hello everyone my name is Mike and I am a machine woodworker. It happened by accident really. I wanted to save a little money on home construction. The guys building the house made me use a nail gun and skill saw. They laughed and made jokes if I tried to use screws and a screwdriver or cut nails with an actual hammer. I was shamed into it really! I am trying to get away from the electric machines, but someone is always shoving an electric drill, skill saw, chop saw, nail gun in my way!

Like others have posted I do not like all the dust and noise. I do more and more with hand tools. I believe there is a greater skill set needed to get jobs done with a smaller set of hand powered tools. Like I believe Warren has mentioned, probably in another thread, one starts to develop a familiarity and fondness for individual hand tools. I see this as something that takes time, experience and familiarity to develop. I do not see a hard line of demarcation. As I get better and better doing specific jobs with my hand tools I pick them up more and more often.

If one does some of their own: construction, electrical, plumbing, it becomes hard to abandon electric tools all together. Probably can be done, but maybe not "efficiently".

[John Vernier]

"No shame in living any where on the spectrum from Neander to hybrid to normutes. But still important to be accurate on labels isn't it."

Normutes being the silent majority of power tool users.

[Steve Voigt]

But still important to be accurate on labels isn't it.

Yes, it would be, if "Neanderthal" were actually a legitimate term with an accepted definition (other than the anthropological one), and not a tongue in cheek moniker that is pretty much only used on this sub-forum. As such, the term means what the consensus of users take it to mean, which is "hand tool user." Not "hand tools to the exclusion of all else." If you want to be accurate with labels, don't define a term to suit yourself, and then insist that everyone else is wrong. That would be a good start.

By the way, I know at least four regular readers here who use no power tools, even grinders. The fact that none of them have posted their "tales of withdrawal" should tell you something about the premise of your question. That, and the fact that insulting the locals usually isn't the greatest opening strategy.

[Denny Tudor]

I guess I will bow out now and let all those touchy egos continue a debate I never asked for.

Thanks to the very small number that answered the original question .

ADDED: on the other hand maybe I got more answers than I thought from people who tried .

[Stewie Simpson]

Call a spade a spade.

Neanderthal Woodworking is an exclusive; not inclusive membership for die-hearts.

die-hearts; One who is ridiculously; overwhelmingly; passionate about a specific thing, person, place, verb, or adverb.

Sign me up as a Hybrid Woodworker.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Given the opportunity; would the craftsmen of a much earlier century have switched to powered machinery to dimension their stock; a study of later history suggests they would have.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Maybe working on becoming a Neander is a little like being a recovering alcoholic. Maybe it is a process more than a place you can exist in exclusively...

Hello everyone my name is Mike and I am a machine woodworker. It happened by accident really. I wanted to save a little money on home construction. The guys building the house made me use a nail gun and skill saw. They laughed and made jokes if I tried to use screws and a screwdriver or cut nails with an actual hammer. I was shamed into it really! I am trying to get away from the electric machines, but someone is always shoving an electric drill, skill saw, chop saw, nail gun in my way!

In step 1 you're supposed to confess your powerlessness over your addiction, not rationalize it. Clearly you haven't quite hit rock bottom yet :-).

[Patrick Chase]

Call a spade a spade.

Neanderthal Woodworking is an exclusive; not inclusive membership for die-hearts.

die-hearts; One who is ridiculously; overwhelmingly; passionate about a specific thing, person, place, verb, or adverb.

Sign me up as a Hybrid Woodworker.

Stewie;

Me, too.

Nit-pick: At least in the US the idiom is "die-hard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_hard_(phrase))".

[Lenore Epstein]

Me, too.

Nit-pick: At least in the US the idiom is "die-hard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_hard_(phrase))".
Thanks, saved me a post.

[Kees Heiden]

Given the opportunity; would the craftsmen of a much earlier century have switched to powered machinery to dimension their stock; a study of later history suggests they would have.

Stewie;

Hmm, that would depend on who you would ask. For example, the English sawyers for a long time resisted change. Each new sawmill could face some fierce opposition, they even burned down several of them. Sawing by hand was their bread and butter and the new fangled mechanisation was a thread to their existance. Likewise the employees of the many large factories that were comming up in the 19th century. The work and the standard of living for most factory workers was misserable, I suppose many of them cursed the mechanisation, but they had no choice.

If you would have asked the rich factory owners, then yes of course they were enthousiastic about mechanisation.

But of course it's not all black and white like that. I remember a tale from a poor land worker from the early 20th century who was very happy to exchange his shovel for a tractor later in his life. But at that time, mechanisation went hand in hand with a better quality of life for everybody. Something that wasn't so evident in the 19th century.

[Stewie Simpson]

Old Chinese proverb; When the winds of change blow, some people build walls and others build windmills.

[Warren Mickley]

[QUOTE=Kees Heiden;2571702choice.

But of course it's not all black and white like that. I remember a tale from a poor land worker from the early 20th century who was very happy to exchange his shovel for a tractor later in his life. But at that time, mechanisation went hand in hand with a better quality of life for everybody. Something that wasn't so evident in the 19th century.[/QUOTE]

In my neighborhood the farmers are pretty well to do. Most have never operated a tractor, but they do know how to use a hoe.

[Robert Engel]

A question like this always begs one to wonder "Why?", hence the OP question may not have been answered directly. Example: its quite therapeutic and rewarding to saw and chop out dovetails. I would never again use a router and a jig. I love the look of slightly irregular spacing and the occasional gap or oversaw (gasp!).

On a side note, have you ever examined an antique chest of drawers and looked at the quality of the DT? Some are horrible. They put the effort into the facade of the piece like carvings, architectural features, and veneer. This tells me the craftsman were quite utilitarian, while we often strive for museum or show quality pieces.

Guys like Paul Sellers and Tom Fridgen, IMO are craftsmen in truest sense of the word - not only because they use hand tools, but because their methods of work lead them to great pieces. This is what prompted me to sell my DT jig. They also have my utmost respect for keeping historical methods of work alive.

Truthfully, I think Stewie has it. I have no doubt ww'ers of old would be quite perplexed as to why one wouldn't use the technology available in the day. Case in point: steam powered sawmills.

Good luck in your endeavor once you get set up perhaps you could post a video or two?

[Brian Holcombe]

It also depends on which pieces you want to put in the spotlight, I'm sure the work that proceeded was at least partially dictated by budget. If you take a close look at basically no-budget pieces like anything in Chateau De Versailles, especially those special items in the King's apartments, they're flawless in every aspect. Point being that then, just like now, there were pieces where the client wanted something that looked good at a 5ft distance, and those pieces which every thing counted and would be inspected up close.

[Denny Tudor]

A question like this always begs one to wonder "Why?", hence the OP question may not have been answered directly. Example: its quite therapeutic and rewarding to saw and chop out dovetails. I would never again use a router and a jig. I love the look of slightly irregular spacing and the occasional gap or oversaw (gasp!).

On a side note, have you ever examined an antique chest of drawers and looked at the quality of the DT? Some are horrible. They put the effort into the facade of the piece like carvings, architectural features, and veneer. This tells me the craftsman were quite utilitarian, while we often strive for museum or show quality pieces.

Guys like Paul Sellers and Tom Fridgen, IMO are craftsmen in truest sense of the word - not only because they use hand tools, but because their methods of work lead them to great pieces. This is what prompted me to sell my DT jig. They also have my utmost respect for keeping historical methods of work alive.

Truthfully, I think Stewie has it. I have no doubt ww'ers of old would be quite perplexed as to why one wouldn't use the technology available in the day. Case in point: steam powered sawmills.

Good luck in your endeavor once you get set up perhaps you could post a video or two?

Thank you much. Doubt I will have a video. Heck I don't even have or want a computer . This iPhone 4 does every thing I need.

Dovetails ?? Cecil Pierce did dome pretty good ones also didn't he ?