Chisels

[Michael Pyron]

yep, mighty useful tools.

I'm at a point in my life where I feel the need to upgrade from the Buck Brother's chisels I've been getting from Home Depot...

the issue I see, is that quality chisels have wooden handles, and I use a 12 oz. hammer.

I know my hammer VERY well, and since I'm an in the field trim/finish carpenter who uses chisel for hardware I have no desire to change out the tool I use to hit my chisels with...typical scenario for me is having to mortise in Sun Valley Bronze pocket door face pulls into the face of the door (they are 1/4" thick on the edges and are made to be set into the face of a door)...point being, I know my methods and have them down...the last thing I need is a curve ball of a new unidirectional impact generator being thrown at me...by the time I get to such a pocket door, it's value is in the $2,000 range (cost of door, install, finishing, etc.).

so my query is this: are wooden handled chisels OK with being struck by a 12 oz. hammer?

about the only mid-range chisel I see with a metal cap is the Irwin Marples brand, and I'm not sure they are much better than a Buck Brother's...

what I need is a quality piece of steel that will keep an edge for a few days, as opposed to the Bucks which tend to need honing every day, if not resharpening if I hit a hard piece of wood and get a few micro nicks in them.

as far as brand, not sure yet...I use 3 chisel sizes predominantly: 1/2" (not that often), 3/4" (mainstay small chisel), 1 1/2" (mainstay large chisel perfect for making a 1.5" straight line when dealing with longer mortises)

thanks in advance for any relevant information and advice...

oh, and I've been a carpenter for over 30 years, so pretty set in my ways at this point:rolleyes:

[Rick Fisher]

Japanese chisels have a hoop at the end that helps keep the wood in tact. The sharper the chisel, and the longer it stays sharp, the lighter you can hit it ..

[Martin Wasner]

I've got a set of Freud chisels, I think they are of mediocre quality, but they have wooden handles. Of If they are sharp, a hammer isn't necessary. If I'm pounding a chisel into something with a hammer I use another set with a metal cap, (I think they may be Buck even), for that. Different tools for different applications. I say buy a good set for the hand work, and keep your old ones for beating on.

[Roy Harding]

Mortising chisels. They're designed to take a blow.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Michael,

I do not have any problem with you hitting your chisels with a hammer. Just do not do it to mine please. Besides, for a lot of things I whack mine with a 24oz mallet.

For the 1/4" mortise or even the 1/2" I would suggest one of these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=66737&cat=1,41504

For your use it might be advantageous to drill a hole in the end so you could epoxy in a short carriage bolt to strike with your hammer.

For regular bevel edged bench chisels you might like these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504

Lee Valley also carries Japanese chisels if you decide to go that direction.

I only have one Narex chisel, a 1/4" mortise chisel, that hasn't been used much. I can not attest to the blade's edge holding attributes.

If edge retention is the predominate factor in your choice I would suggest looking at the Lee Valley Veritas PM-V11® chisels. They are a bit pricey. That is a drawback to quality.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504

The handles might do good to have a hoop added to the top for use with a hammer. Though yours is only 12oz which may not cause too much mushrooming of the head.

Old work habits die hard. It is likely easier for you to add hoops to the chisel than to lay down your hammer.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

yep, mighty useful tools.

I'm at a point in my life where I feel the need to upgrade from the Buck Brother's chisels I've been getting from Home Depot...

the issue I see, is that quality chisels have wooden handles, and I use a 12 oz. hammer.

I know my hammer VERY well, and since I'm an in the field trim/finish carpenter who uses chisel for hardware I have no desire to change out the tool I use to hit my chisels with...typical scenario for me is having to mortise in Sun Valley Bronze pocket door face pulls into the face of the door (they are 1/4" thick on the edges and are made to be set into the face of a door)...point being, I know my methods and have them down...the last thing I need is a curve ball of a new unidirectional impact generator being thrown at me...by the time I get to such a pocket door, it's value is in the $2,000 range (cost of door, install, finishing, etc.).

so my query is this: are wooden handled chisels OK with being struck by a 12 oz. hammer?

about the only mid-range chisel I see with a metal cap is the Irwin Marples brand, and I'm not sure they are much better than a Buck Brother's...

what I need is a quality piece of steel that will keep an edge for a few days, as opposed to the Bucks which tend to need honing every day, if not resharpening if I hit a hard piece of wood and get a few micro nicks in them.

as far as brand, not sure yet...I use 3 chisel sizes predominantly: 1/2" (not that often), 3/4" (mainstay small chisel), 1 1/2" (mainstay large chisel perfect for making a 1.5" straight line when dealing with longer mortises)

thanks in advance for any relevant information and advice...

oh, and I've been a carpenter for over 30 years, so pretty set in my ways at this point:rolleyes:

Hi Michael

I would not be purchasing a wooden handle unless it is hooped. A steel hammer will otherwise eventually destroy a naked wooden handle no matter the make.

I would also be unwilling to take expensive chisels to a jobsite. Partly because they are not ideally designed for this task, and because there are chisels which offer a better compromise.

The chisels that I have in mind are Japanese. There are a number of mid range priced types around that will outperform anything you could imagine by way of edge holding (even the cheap ones will blow you away with sharpness and edgeholding). They are hooped and designed to be hit with a hammer. The only issues are that you need to set up the hoops (takes a few minutes at most), and that they are not a levering blade (they are chopping and paring blades).

Makes? Not sure what you can get or where - off the top if my head ... Iyoroi. I have used the basic bench chisel for more than 15 years chopping into hardwoods and yet to chip one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Houghton]

Not a direct answer to your question, but Stanley's older No. 60 butt chisels - with the yaller plastic handles and the metal striking cap - are the best field chisels I've found yet. The steel is amazingly tough, and will hold an edge a long time. They can be found at many yard and estate sales. In this area, they tend to go for $1 or so. I wouldn't use anything else for carpentry. I can go from making/trimming a hinge mortise to levering out great big chunks of wood, and they can do the whole range. And you can bash them with a hammer all day long.

[Stanley Covington]

It is well established that the better Japanese chisels have superior edge-retention capability. And the steel hoop and ferrule make them very sturdy.

For FINISH work on doors (I have had a lot of experience fabricating and installing expensive custom doors) a 12oz steel hammer will work fine to motivate a Japanese wooden handled chisel, assuming it has a properly set-up hoop and ferrule. 12oz is heavier than necessary for finish work, but not unusual at all. I certainly understand your desire to not switch out a hammer you are accustomed to using.

But if you need to cut deep mortises with fast and heavy strokes, however, a domed-face 12oz claw hammer is less than ideal.

If you must use a claw hammer on a wooden handled chisel, I strongly recommend grinding the face of the hammer flat, assuming it has a typical domed striking face. This alone will help a lot to extend the life of the wooden handle.

If you won't grind the hammer's face flat, a properly setup hoop and ferrule become even more important.

You might want to consider using the larger tataki chisels instead of the smaller, handier, but weaker oire chisels. Being heavier and having larger diameter and longer chisels, they will take a lot more abuse, especially from a domed-face steel claw hammer.

Guys with large hands often prefer the tataki over the oire chisels for everything.

Stan

[Bruce Haugen]

Michael, if I were in your shoes, hammer in hand, I would likely want a vintage Stanley no. 60 butt chisel, with metal caps and plastic handles. That's what i used when I built houses. Unfortunately, they're no longer available new, so then I'd recommend the Lee Valley butt chisels. The shorter length helps a lot.

[Tom M King]

I've been a carpenter for 43 years. For about the past 7 or 8, I've been using one of these on chisels:http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Good-170-1012-12-Ounce-Mallet/dp/B000CER0PC My favorite carpenter's chisels were the Stanley no. 40's-black plastic handle with metal cap, but I wish I had back all the ones I've destroyed with a hammer.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Stanley still makes something like the No. 60s a lot of people have mentioned.

http://www.stanleytools.com/en-us/products/hand-tools/woodworking-tools/wood-chisel/1-in-fatmax-thrutang-wood-chisel/16-978

[Derek Cohen]

I have a few of the Stanley #60 chisels in a drawer. They get hauled out when I need a chisel for rough work. Mine were purchased new and are now a few decades old, at least. I am not sure if they are the same steel as the current equivalent Fat Max. To be frank, the #60 ain't that crash hot. They do not hold an edge that long, although they can take some abuse (which is why I still have them). I doubt that I would want them to be my work chisels. I know Iyoroi (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/japanese-iyoroi-cabinetmakers-chisel.aspx) would run rings around them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Stan gave you the straight skinny on the Japanese chisels, which is what I prefer to use. Were you to try a Japanese gennou/hammer you might find a tool you would like even better than your 12oz old friend.

If you do not want to go the Japanese tool route there are some options. Lee Valley has chisels made for them in Japan from good carbon steel. These chisels have butyrate compound handles, similar to the Stanley 60's I believe, that are suppose to be nearly indestructible. They make both butt chisels and classic bevel edge chisels with these handles. Another option is Barr Specialty Tools. Barr forges chisels designed to be struck. They make a variety of socket chisels with hard wood handles and steel rings to protect the ends, but at the price of these chisels you might just go for the Japanese chisel option.

[lowell holmes]

Uh........................
Why don't you buy an inexpensive wooden mallet?:)

There's no reason to hit chisels with a 16 oz framing hammer. If you insist, any steal capped chisel from the borg will do.

[Michael Pyron]

thanks for all the responses and information...

as far as the mallet concept: again, I know my hammer...been using it for over 20 years...when I'm doing chisel work I'm looking at the wood and 'knowing' I'm going to hit the chisel properly with my hammer without looking...said 'knowledge' being based upon a 20 year relationship with the impact generator (when a military contractor uses that term, they can charge $500)...not sure about the concept of 12 oz. being heavy, IIRC that was the lightest one Hart made back then, well I do have some memory of them releasing a 9 oz. Tim Allen version later...either way, people in general rib me about using such a light hammer...go figure...

I was wondering about the hoops on the ends of some chisels I've been viewing, thanks for the clarification...I had suspected as much, but was unsure...sounds like the path I will follow.

I used to use Stanley chisels back in the day, and agree they are about the same as Bucks are today...decent, but not quality...and yeah, I'm highly aware that you pay for such quality...as noted, I'm at a point in time where I desire something that holds an edge a bit longer...sometimes with a lot of chisel work being required in a day I find myself struggling to get quality cuts towards the end, and when making cross grain mortises on faces of doors this is really not a good situation.

really it's also about free time also...I have better things to do than spend oodles of off work time sharpening...I just splurged and got a Work Sharp 3000 and while it was a PITA to get properly set up, it offers repeatable results and is far better than my old ways of using a Veritas jig and starting out with 80-120 grit paper stuck to a granite plate and then working to stones for honing...

the Lee Valley line looks promising, but considering the price I wonder just how hard the steel is...made in Japan?, eh...

again, thanks for all the replies and education...after 30 years of work I'm finally getting to the concept of the quality of a chisel as opposed to just using one!

[lowell holmes]

I have a Stanley 60 that lives in my nail belt. The steel in it is excellent. It holds an edge and I have chopped mortises with it. It will pare edges quite well.

[John Kananis]

My beaters are a set of old Marples with the black/blue handles which have the steel caps on the ends - not sure if you can find these new but cheap on the flea bay and they can really take a beating. I have the blue handle with white ring Marples also and imagine that they can take a hit (Due to the handle material) but wouldn't do that personally. My yellow-handled buck bros only come out when there's a good chance there's a nail or some other metal hazard in the piece I'm working on.

[Michael Pyron]

I'm currently (and will take my time doing further research/shopping) leaning towards the following: http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Set-of-3-Firmer-and-3-Extra-Strong-Bevel-Edge-Chisels-Made-in-Germany/productinfo/101-1106/

A middle range hardness that I think will suit my needs well...certainly not a super hard Japanese steel, but harder than entry level chisels...

will keep my current chisels in my bags for general work, and pull those out only when doing real finish work.

anybody have any true knowledge/experience in that brand?

[lowell holmes]

I'm currently (and will take my time doing further research/shopping) leaning towards the following: http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Set-of-3-Firmer-and-3-Extra-Strong-Bevel-Edge-Chisels-Made-in-Germany/productinfo/101-1106/

A middle range hardness that I think will suit my needs well...certainly not a super hard Japanese steel, but harder than entry level chisels...

will keep my current chisels in my bags for general work, and pull those out only when doing real finish work.

anybody have any true knowledge/experience in that brand?
I don't have experience with the brand, but I've bought from Tools for Working Wood. Everything I've bought from them has been good quality. I've known about them for about 15 years.
The woodworkers at Homestead Heritage bought from them back in the early 2000's.

[Derek Cohen]

These look like rebadged Two Cherries chisels. The have the same mix of chrome and vanadium, and the same handles. If so, they will be tougher to hone than Japanese bench chisels. Plus, if they are finished (polished) like the Two Cherries, the edges with be dubbed (rounded backs) and you will need to spend time (?) flattening the backs (it is possible to get unpolished Two Cherries, but these look polished). Please try them out in the store rather than buying unseen online (unless they have a good return policy). There are many chisels that you can purchase on line safely, but I have reservations about these.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi again Michael,

I thought I might mention another way to purchase chisels. Rather than buying a set, many of which typically get little use, you might consider buying one or two of something you like so that you can gain experience with them before buying more. Japanese chisels in particular come in quite a few different types, all designed to do specific work. For instance you could start with a Japanese Oire-nomi, general purpose/butt chisels or two in the sizes you actually need. If you have large hands or think the chisels will see extra hard use you might start with Japanese Tatak nomi, medium striking chisels. If you plan to make mortises regularly you might consider Japanese mortise chisels, Mukomachi-nomi. If you find yourself wanting to do paring by hand you might want a few of the Japanese paring chisels, Usu-nomi. Yes this could go on & on, the point is eventually you may find a few of several different types of chisels suits your needs better.

I should mention that chisels made here in the US and countries other than Japan come in different types too. The Japanese chisels are just available in even more types/styles...

[Patrick Chase]

yep, mighty useful tools.

I'm at a point in my life where I feel the need to upgrade from the Buck Brother's chisels I've been getting from Home Depot...


Those Bucks are actually not horrible chisels once tuned up properly, especially considering the price. I have a 3/4 that I use as a "beater" chisel and gave a (tuned up) set to a friend once. I don't think they're all that much worse than the vaunted Narex chisels (of which I have many in different styles) for example. Also and as you point out they can take a pretty substantial beating.



the issue I see, is that quality chisels have wooden handles, and I use a 12 oz. hammer.

I know my hammer VERY well, and since I'm an in the field trim/finish carpenter who uses chisel for hardware I have no desire to change out the tool I use to hit my chisels with...typical scenario for me is having to mortise in Sun Valley Bronze pocket door face pulls into the face of the door (they are 1/4" thick on the edges and are made to be set into the face of a door)...point being, I know my methods and have them down...the last thing I need is a curve ball of a new unidirectional impact generator being thrown at me...by the time I get to such a pocket door, it's value is in the $2,000 range (cost of door, install, finishing, etc.).

so my query is this: are wooden handled chisels OK with being struck by a 12 oz. hammer?

about the only mid-range chisel I see with a metal cap is the Irwin Marples brand, and I'm not sure they are much better than a Buck Brother's...

what I need is a quality piece of steel that will keep an edge for a few days, as opposed to the Bucks which tend to need honing every day, if not resharpening if I hit a hard piece of wood and get a few micro nicks in them.

as far as brand, not sure yet...I use 3 chisel sizes predominantly: 1/2" (not that often), 3/4" (mainstay small chisel), 1 1/2" (mainstay large chisel perfect for making a 1.5" straight line when dealing with longer mortises)

thanks in advance for any relevant information and advice...

oh, and I've been a carpenter for over 30 years, so pretty set in my ways at this point:rolleyes:

You're going to have a religious debate on your hands here.

My take FWIW: If you're going to use a hammer then you want something with a metai cap, ferrule, or hoop at the striking end of the handle. As you say Marples are capped. Narex bench chisels have ferrules, while Japanese chisels are hooped (they're designed to be struck with a metal-headed Gennou - Stanley already weighed in and flushed out those details).

As noted above I don't think Narex are a huge leap over what you're using now. I don't have experience with modern Marples but they also don't have a terrific rep, so you might just want to stand pat.

IMO you don't want to mess with premium Western chisels like L-N or LV. The steels used in those are optimized more for wear life than toughness, and the handles aren't designed to take a beating (though they are mostly socket or hybrid socket/tang construction, so at least that end of the handle would hold up OK).

What about the Bucks seems limiting to you?

[Michael Pyron]

I don't have experience with the brand, but I've bought from Tools for Working Wood. Everything I've bought from them has been good quality. I've known about them for about 15 years.
The woodworkers at Homestead Heritage bought from them back in the early 2000's.

schweet...thx for that tip...I notice they have plastic handled Two Cherries chisels there...

the link I gave does look very similar to Two Cherries, but there are subtle differences...shrugs shoulders...

I'm not sure how a polished blade is going to of detriment...the back should still be flat, albeit with slightly eased edges...

will keep doing research...most likely will start out with a nominal 3/4" (maybe 7/8"...I use these for 1" wide mortises, and since that in of itself is many times nominal, a 1" chisel isn't a good candidate) and a 1 1/2" or 1 3/4"...good idea most likely to save funds and experiment with different brands...

[Clay Parrish]

Mm...I say have more faith in your adaptability and use the right tool for the job - a wooden mallet. There's no reason you have to use the same hammer for every task. If it makes you feel better, take half an hour and practice on some scrap first. Sorry, I'm not letting you off the hook so easily ;-)

[Patrick Chase]

Michael, if I were in your shoes, hammer in hand, I would likely want a vintage Stanley no. 60 butt chisel, with metal caps and plastic handles. That's what i used when I built houses. Unfortunately, they're no longer available new, so then I'd recommend the Lee Valley butt chisels. The shorter length helps a lot.

It's important to distinguish here between the Lee Valley Butt Chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=30029&cat=1,41504)and the Veritas Butt Chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=70931&cat=1,41504).

The Veritas butt chisels have PM-V11 blades and "bare" (no ferrule/cap) wooden handles. They aren't particularly impact resistant as a consequence, so I wouldn't recommend those chisels be hammered.

The LV Butt Chisels look like a pretty good option (HCS, plastic handle) though as with Narex I'd question just how much of an upgrade you're really getting over the Bucks you have. You might also look at the very similar LV Bench Chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1).

[Patrick Chase]

I used to use Stanley chisels back in the day, and agree they are about the same as Bucks are today...decent, but not quality...and yeah, I'm highly aware that you pay for such quality...as noted, I'm at a point in time where I desire something that holds an edge a bit longer...sometimes with a lot of chisel work being required in a day I find myself struggling to get quality cuts towards the end, and when making cross grain mortises on faces of doors this is really not a good situation.

really it's also about free time also...I have better things to do than spend oodles of off work time sharpening...I just splurged and got a Work Sharp 3000 and while it was a PITA to get properly set up, it offers repeatable results and is far better than my old ways of using a Veritas jig and starting out with 80-120 grit paper stuck to a granite plate and then working to stones for honing...

the Lee Valley line looks promising, but considering the price I wonder just how hard the steel is...made in Japan?, eh...

again, thanks for all the replies and education...after 30 years of work I'm finally getting to the concept of the quality of a chisel as opposed to just using one!

You should be aware that there is a tradeoff between toughness and wear resistance in tool steels. Japanese chisels circumvent that to a degree by using laminated blades (i.e. some of each), but in general "chisels you can whale on with a metal hammer" and "chisels with highly wear-resistant edges" are mutually exclusive groups. Even in the case of Japanese chisels a 12-oz domed-face hammer is pushing it IMO.

If you want wear-resistant steels you'll realistically need to ditch the hammer.

[Kees Heiden]

The Swiss Pfeil also has a series of bench chisels with hoops. But I don't know if they are available in the US.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm currently (and will take my time doing further research/shopping) leaning towards the following: http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Set-of-3-Firmer-and-3-Extra-Strong-Bevel-Edge-Chisels-Made-in-Germany/productinfo/101-1106/

A middle range hardness that I think will suit my needs well...certainly not a super hard Japanese steel, but harder than entry level chisels...

Those edges may not be all that impact resistant. "High carbon steel... enhanced by adding small amounts of Chromium and Vanadium" sounds suspiciously like the composition of A2. If you're going to be whaling on those things with a metal hammer you want a tough steel, not a hard one. I'd stick to HCS if I were you.

[steven c newman]

What I have been "whaling away on" lately..
338316
And what I hit with. Two came from Aldis, the New Haven Edge Tool chisel was an auction find...
Mallet was turned from a blank of spalted maple. Made to fit my hands.
Was doing a bunch of these thingys..
338317
Building a back for a rocker..
338318
Mortises were 1" deep.

[Jim Koepke]

Mm...I say have more faith in your adaptability and use the right tool for the job - a wooden mallet. There's no reason you have to use the same hammer for every task. If it makes you feel better, take half an hour and practice on some scrap first. Sorry, I'm not letting you off the hook so easily ;-)

It may also be a matter of not wanting to carry more items in a tool box. The hammer has other uses. A mallet would require a space that may not be available.

jtk

[Michael Pyron]

You should be aware that there is a tradeoff between toughness and wear resistance in tool steels. Japanese chisels circumvent that to a degree by using laminated blades (i.e. some of each), but in general "chisels you can whale on with a metal hammer" and "chisels with highly wear-resistant edges" are mutually exclusive groups. Even in the case of Japanese chisels a 12-oz domed-face hammer is pushing it IMO.

If you want wear-resistant steels you'll realistically need to ditch the hammer.

please elucidate...

I guess my ancient, out of production, Hart hammer is slightly domed...but one thing I do know is F=1/2mv^2...e.g. you don't have to whale on the sucker, and that is why I started using a 12 oz. hammer years ago...light enough that I can carefully tap on woods to align them and not leave a dent...and of course, it will impart a decent amount of energy when swung with 'force' (and by that I mean a proper swing of the hammer...it's a body motion thing...taught to me years ago by a framer who laughed at my 32 oz. hammer and showed me how to drive 3" vinyl coated sinkers above my head with a 21 oz. hammer with 2 hits...start...SLAM with proper body motion).

look...I'm aware of the transference of energy and such...and the ill effects on woods (especially cross grained strikes)...this can be seen in 2 distinct fashions that I try to avoid...1: the chisel will move in both directions because of the bevel...e.g. it can widen up your intended mortise by moving into the field of the material you want to leave...the trick here is to remove as much wood as possible up to the actual mortise line, then start work on the mortise line...in general I do this with a router...sometimes I'm forced, because of a superintendent whining about dust, to do it all by hand...either way the trick is to remove material close to the actual line, then focus on the line...this allows the bevel of the chisel to push the remaining wood away easily and not move the back into the field of the wood you want to preserve...2: crushing of cross grained cuts...this is seen by the wood intended to be left being a tad crushed and dimpled...unclean...cr@ppy work...

point being, I usually use my hammer judiciously...yeah, sometimes I whale upon it...most times not...just part of the work and just exactly what type of work is being performed...

I am assuming a plastic/rubber faced mallet is a likely candidate for alternate striking instrument?

yeah, I'm sure I'm NOT that old to learn a new instrument...I use a rubber/plastic faced mallet now and again for certain types of work...thing is I am also keenly aware of the loss of energy being transferred to the item being struck...

as far as hardness of steel...yeah, I am also aware of that concept (though as noted NOT experienced with quality chisels that have a higher rc rating)...and yeah, it's a trade off...that is why I am focusing on rc61-63 as opposed to ultimate Japanese rc65-67...

big point to me, as I previously noted, is that a chisel stay sharp for a whole work day when put to repeated use...the Japanese products intrigue me...layered steel, and higher rc rating...

in the end I am also realizing for my own 'preservation' on site I also need to think of similarity to total size of the chisel as compared to the Hell Depot Bucks I've been using for ages now...

at the very least, I hope to be 'happy' with whatever I choose...$, while certainly 'important', are not a great issue per se. I'm not looking to spend over a grand on a set of ultimate Japanese chisels...rather $300 maximum for a limited array of chisels...1/2" is the smallest I use (3/4" is the smallest cross grained mortise I do) and 5/8" might be an option as opposed to 1/2"...3/4-7/8" for 1" cross grain cuts, and for standard strike plates on a jamb I have to admit sometimes 1 1/2" is a tad short...I'm leaning at going for 1 3/4" for an investment quality chisel...

yeah, I have 'worries' about changing things...legitimate worries in the sense that when I make a mistake, it is usually a costly one...simply because of the fact I work on very high $ homes, and that implies expensive materials...on a very lucky day I make a FUBAR on a paint grade item...that can be patched, repainted, and fairly easily forgiven...fekk a stained item up, and it's most likely throw it away and replace it...my most recent FUBAR in that respect was a result of working in low light and mistaking a nail hole for the mark I made for location of bore for a dead bolt in a T-astragal...whoooops...throw that T-astragal away, remortise it for the throw bolt into the head jamb, and cry in shame...and yeah, I did the restoration work gratis...the best I can do to warranty my craftsmanship...in general, when given some serious cr@p about a mistake I simply answer "Mel Gibson" and the person said comment is directed to says "say what???", and I respond "according to Mel, they took the last perfect carpenter, beat the *edited* out of him, put a crown of thorns on him, then nailed him to a big cross...I'm not that guy...I try, but still make human mistakes"

[Patrick Chase]

Admittedly I'm making an assumption about how you use the hammer.

A simplified way to look at this is that the act of swinging a hammer (or mallet) first accumulates a certain amount amount of kinetic energy in the head (and to a lesser extent in the wielder's arm/body), and then delivers that energy to the target. Even if you keep the energy constant, the metal hammer will tend to deliver that energy more quickly and completely, leading to higher peak forces at both the top of the handle and the cutting edge. All else being equal you would need a tougher edge to withstand those impacts without folding/chipping/etc.

Obviously if you're using the hammer very judiciously then you could keep the impacts loads in the same range as with a mallet, but to achieve that you would actually have to be delivering *less* energy per stroke than you would with a mallet, which is inefficient (requires more strokes to do a given amount of work).

[Frederick Skelly]

Mike, I read this whole thread and in summary, I hear you saying several things:
1) You're using these chisels for Quality work that you do to earn your living.
2) You don't want to change hammers.
3) Money isn't the driving issue here.
4) Getting through a day without honing is your major goal.

I would do just what you're thinking and buy 1-2 mid-grade Japanese chisels. Perhaps even high grade ones. They are hooped, have superb steel and are made to be used by guys at work. I'd be sure to keep them in a good tool roll. But assuming you don't plan to share your tools, I wouldn't personally hesitate to take them to a job site. Stan Covington lives and works in Japan, doing work that resembles yours. I'd either buy the ones he suggested, or drop him a PM asking more questions. But it sounds like Japanese is the way to go to me too.

Fred

[Tom M King]

Michael, I do similar type of stuff for a living too. Find my website by my name, but I'm not allowed to post any links here. The chisel that stays in my apron all the time, is an older, blue handled Marples or Record. That company has since been bought out by Irwin. You can still find plenty of the old ones on Ebay every day. I can do what you are talking about all day, and sometimes for several days before I need to hone it. PM me your address, and I'll hone one, and send it to you to try. I would loan you a Wood is Good mallet to try too, but I use that most days.

The best carpenter I ever had work for me used a 12 oz. curved claw, wooden handled hammer for everything, including framing. He was known as the best finish carpenter around back then. He had been a gunner on a big gun in a battleship in WWII and couldn't hear out of one ear as a result. I learned a lot from him. He showed me how to set a cap iron. Jack (L.W. Jordan) was also much in demand for the ammo he loaded by competitive shooters. He quit climbing, and working on houses in the late '80s, and spent his last 12 or so years building all the cabinets he wanted to build in his shop in his back yard.

[Stewie Simpson]

Carpenters in the west don't use Japanese chisels on a job site; their too high in maintenance. Get yourself a set of Irwin Marples or Stanley Fatmax chisels with the shock resistant handles. Personally I prefer to use the heavier 21 0z claw hammer. Wooden mallets are for shop work.

[Jim Koepke]

Carpenters in the west don't use Japanese chisels on a job site; their too high in maintenance. Get yourself a set of Irwin Marples or Stanley Fatmax chisels with the shock resistant handles. Wooden mallets are for shop work.

Stewie, It seems the points from the original post are being missed.


--- I use a 12 oz. hammer.

I know my hammer VERY well, and since I'm an in the field trim/finish carpenter who uses chisel for hardware I have no desire to change out the tool I use to hit my chisels with...

--- so my query is this: are wooden handled chisels OK with being struck by a 12 oz. hammer?

--- about the only mid-range chisel I see with a metal cap is the Irwin Marples brand, and I'm not sure they are much better than a Buck Brother's...

--- what I need is a quality piece of steel that will keep an edge for a few days, as opposed to the Bucks which tend to need honing every day, if not resharpening if I hit a hard piece of wood and get a few micro nicks in them.

Even I may have missed it with my suggestion for Narex chisels. I do not know if they hold an edge any better than the Buck Bros chisels currently in use by Michael.

Since many of those are inexpensive, one answer may be to have multiple chisels in the same size so they can be switched out and sharpening can be done less often.

Otherwise if Michael wants wooden handled chisels with blade retention abilities there may be no other choice than Japanese chisels or installing hoops on something like PM-V11 chisels.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Japanese chisels are easy maintenance once they're setup. I've had many of them which have never seen anything other than a finish stone after setup. I dont have knock around chisels, so I use my best chisels in doug fir framing members when I need to, and the cabinetwork that I post up here.

FWIW, good high carbon steel Japanese Chisels are anywhere from $100-$200/ea depending on the maker and size. If you are serious about a good couple of Japanese chisels you'd circumvent a lot of wasted effort by asking Stanley Covington (who replied on page one) about makers.

Price does not always dictate quality, so keep that in mind. I've had in two instances where chisels at the lower end of the range above well outperform ones on the higher end of that range.

[Stewie Simpson]

Jim; my own experience with the Narex chisels suggests the steel is too soft for high impact work.

[Stewie Simpson]

Japanese chisels are easy maintenance once they're setup. I've had many of them which have never seen anything other than a finish stone after setup. I dont have knock around chisels, so I use my best chisels in doug fir framing members when I need to, and the cabinetwork that I post up here.

FWIW, good high carbon steel Japanese Chisels are anywhere from $100-$200/ea depending on the maker and size. If you are serious about a good couple of Japanese chisels you'd circumvent a lot of wasted effort by asking Stanley Covington (who replied on page one) about makers.

Price does not always dictate quality, so keep that in mind. I've had in two instances where chisels at the lower end of the range above well outperform ones on the higher end of that range.

Brian; what needs to be bared in mind is that unlike the west, Japan traditionally don't use nails to assemble their house frames; when doing house renovation work here in the west you cant always guarantee your going to miss a nail that's hidden within a stud, batten, or noggin with your chisel. Its not unheard of to use the chisel as a pry bar on occasions. Its the nature of the work. Are Japanese Chisels designed and priced for that type of abuse; I have some doubts.

Stewie;

[Stanley Covington]

Brian; what needs to be bared in mind is that unlike the west, Japan traditionally don't use nails to assemble their house frames; when doing house renovation work here in the west you cant always guarantee your going to miss a nail that's hidden within a stud, batten, or noggin with your chisel. Its not unheard of to use the chisel as a pry bar on occasions. Its the nature of the work. Are Japanese Chisels designed and priced for that type of abuse; I have some doubts.

Stewie;

Lots of nails in Japanese housing nowadays. They are quite cheap since the days of Admiral Perry! 🤓

If you are going to cut nails or put in sills and thresholds full of grit, plain HC chisels of any hardness will be damaged. Regardless of country of origin. There are chisels made of high speed tungsten alloys intended for working with plywood,

The initial premise of this thread, though, was finish work.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

Stewie, It seems the points from the original post are being missed.

I think that Stewie's actually making a good point here, and it's the same one I was trying to make earlier: Given the OPs stated requirements it's not at all clear that an upgrade is a good idea, whether to Japanese chisels or higher-end Western ones.

Chisels like the Bucks he already has and the Stanleys are designed to take the sort of punishment he's likely to mete out. High-end chisels are designed for high-end work, and emphasize wear resistance over toughness.

Stupid analogy: If you farm for a living you probably wouldn't want to trade your John Deere in for a Ferrari...

[Derek Cohen]

Hi again Michael

I would like to mention another chisel, also Japanese, that I think could be the answer you are searching for: very sharp and the longest lasting edge I have come across. These are HSS steel chisels, designed especially for hammering into hard wood. I have one and holds an edge beyond the ridiculous :)

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=312_313_363

Buy just the sizes you need, and use your Worksharp ! I hone mine on diamond plates. This is the only downside - they are a bear to sharpen.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

A bit of info; on the weekend I tried to flatten a hard silicon carbide honing stone using a coarse grit diamond stone; the diamond stone lasted about 20 min before it lost all its grit and is now cactus; I will be placing an order for some 280, 400, and 600 loose grit silicon carbide powder to use on a floating sheet of glass to complete the job. Every mistake provides an opportunity to learn from it.

The following video shows the use of an extra coarse grain aluminium oxide powder to flatten a green silicon carbide combination stone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_vpMtppbkU


Stewie;

[Robert Engel]

Simple answer: No, do not use a metal hammer on wood handled chisels. Traditionally a wooden mallet is used but I use a Thorex (sp?)most of the time.

You're getting an answer from a woodworker who tries not to be a carpenter ;) so no offense, but there is quite a difference in the requirements for tools. But the principles are the same: a chisel needs to have a)a flat back, b)a sharp edge and c) good steel.

That being said, I think the best entry level chisel for a woodworker is a set of Irwin Marples and they will also do well for what you're describing. And that being said, for what you're doing, even a Buck Bros. chisel will work well for you if properly sharpened.

I recommend studying about sharpening and tuning up a chisel before you buy another set.

[Michael Pyron]

well, again, thanks for all the good advice...

I do know how to sharpen chisels...my last effort resulted in all 4 I sharpened taking the hair off of the back of my hand...and were properly lapped on the backside before hand, and very lightly afterwards with my extra fine water stone...

the image is of a pocket door I did recently...you'll notice the edge pull, Rocky Mountain Hardware, is rounded all over and actually quite a PITA to make look good..the face pull is a Sun Valley Bronze FP-404...its edge is 1/4" thick...you'll notice it's only proud of the door by about 1/64"...this is what I use chisels for...most of the doors I deal with that are stained are a 1/16" laminate over structural plywood core, and this makes things tough on a chisel in various fashions...glue lines, varying densities of substrate that make working on one area easy, another inches away a bear...hidden knots...etc...I do all such work by first doing whatever boring/chiseling/routing required to get the piece to attach to the door...then apply yellow Frogtape around the area, then affix the hardware and locate as I desire...after I'm pleased with the location, I carefully use my utility knife with a sharp blade to scribe around the piece (this is hand finished stuff, not necessarily a perfect rectangle or even straight), remove the piece then peel back the tape that was covered by the hardware and am presented with an outline of my mortise...I then carefully strike with an appropriate chisel along said line once, and only once, to define the line...at this point too hard/deep of a strike will result in the back of the chisel moving over and resulting in shoddy work...it can also result in dimpling of the wood in the field...in the case of the face pull I had a router dedicated to the project (a total of 11 pocket doors = 22 face pulls) and carefully routed to depth as close to the tape as I felt safe at any given moment (yeah, one slip and it's game over buddy)...then using chisels (1.5") finalized the mortised and the results in general were tight enough to require using my 12 oz. mallet to tap in place...as a note I ended up going back to that door and shimming out the edge pull a tad to make it look better....!@#$%^&*&^%$# rock tumbled rounded over edges!

point being, I use chisels for what they are intended for...I have pry bars, flat bars, 5 in 1 tools, etc., for other tasks...

yes, I paid attention to the Japanese chisels mentioned earlier, and have found sources...but I'm not sure such hard steel is needed per se, and might be a PITA to deal with...then again, they might just be the ticket...

as has been noted, yep, every now and again I hit a nail in a door jamb (usually caused by an installer ignorant of hardware and their locations), though statistically speaking that's usually with a router bit not a chisel...but, it happens...and it's for door jambs that a really sharp chisel is required...why?, because every strike against a jamb is also transferring energy to everything around it...caulk joints of casing to jamb...if it's a jamb embedded in plaster then cracking that line...etc...yeah, we block our doors at install, but usually at that point a person is quite understandably unaware that a deadbolt might be added 6" above the pre-bored location on the jamb...

anyway, as I find myself more and more entrenched in the position of doing mostly hardware these days, a quality chisel is being desired...the Bucks have served for however long it's been since they replaced the Stanley's at the box stores...

in the end my choices will definitely be driven by available sizes...a lot of decent chisels max out at 1 1/4", and that's just too small for my tastes...

as far as the hammer...well, I'll just do what I'll do in that regards...the metal hoops are certainly going to be part of the equation...in general I rarely use my plastic/rubber mallet, but methinks the plastic side will transfer a decent amount of energy to a chisel (it certainly doesn't to a nail set)...and yeah, many times I find myself at the end of a mortise routine using the palm of my hand to drive the chisel for that extra hair of final depth to make the hardware sit as I want it to...

thanks again for all of the valuable information

[Stewie Simpson]

It was a bit of a brave move suggesting a Carpenter with 30yrs experience might need to do some research on how to sharpen a chisel. Kudos to Michael for not spitting the dummy on that bit of advise.

[Kees Heiden]

For that kind of work I like my Japanese chisels. I use them almost all the time when impact force is needed. I like to use them with a wooden mallet, but tradition is using a special steel hammer. Mine are the Koyimachi chisels, bought from Tools from Japan. Good white paper steel, not overly hard, easy to sharpen on oil stones, not crazy expensive. And when you do hit a nail, oh well, shit happens. I am not afraid to use a grinder to get them back in shape.

[Michael Pyron]

It was a bit of a brave move suggesting a Carpenter with 30yrs experience might need to do some research on how to sharpen a chisel. Kudos to Michael for not spitting the dummy on that bit of advise.

no offense taken...I work around plenty of people who think a new chisel from a box store is sharp...and others who send theirs out to be sharpened and can't do work on a given day because their chisels are away...

I prefer to deal with it myself...I don't have time to send chisels out, pick them up, get annoyed when some ignoramus ruins them...

and you were correct: proper lapping and such is an important concept in a sharp tool...

[Stanley Covington]

I think it is interesting when people state matter of factly that Japanese or "high-end" chisels can't or shouldn't be used on a Jobsite. I wouldn't take my Kiyotada chisels to do a Jobsite to do concrete formwork, but I would to do timber framing or built-in cabinet installation. I have done this very thing hundreds of times.

I agree with having softer indestructible beaters like the old Stanley steel cap yellow handle chisels in the toolbag for work where nails or grit are likely to get in the way, but that is not all the work done on a construction site. And don't forget the discussion started with high-end woodworking with a 12oz hammer.

With a little caution there is absolutely no reason to not take good high-quality chisels that will hold a sharp edge a long time to a Jobsite to do good work. I know this from experience.

Stan

[Jim Koepke]

get annoyed when some ignoramus ruins them...

This is only one of the reasons why I have a set of beater chisels. I would never loan one of my good chisels. Especially not to someone who needed to borrow one because theirs were out being sharpened. My personal rule of borrowing tools is I return it in as good or better condition than when it was loaned to me.

jtk

[David Spurr]

Michael, I feel your pain. I remedied my sharpening by purchasing a second Veritas MKII jig for the job site. Works well for me.

[Michael Pyron]

I think it is interesting when people state matter of factly that Japanese or "high-end" chisels can't or shouldn't be used on a Jobsite. I wouldn't take my Kiyotada chisels to do a Jobsite to do concrete formwork, but I would to do timber framing or built-in cabinet installation. I have done this very thing hundreds of times.

I agree with having softer indestructible beaters like the old Stanley steel cap yellow handle chisels in the toolbag for work where nails or grit are likely to get in the way, but that is not all the work done on a construction site. And don't forget the discussion started with high-end woodworking with a 12oz hammer.

With a little caution there is absolutely no reason to not take good high-quality chisels that will hold a sharp edge a long time to a Jobsite to do good work. I know this from experience.

Stan

I couldn't agree more...tools are tools...I use mine for making a living...that allows me to pay for a mortgage, bills, etc...

I guess there are those that just look at tools...I don't...I use them, and in general desire quality (certainly restricted by a budget)...

best analogy I can think of is those that buy guitars as collector's items as opposed to actually playing them...I'm definitely not that way...it's just a tool...use it...enjoy it...PROTECT it...simple...a dent here, a nick there...that's just being used as opposed to looked at from a distance

[george wilson]

"Because theirs are out being sharpened". THAT is a really bad situation!!:) So,how many minutes or hours(Are they from the berg store?" do they get to USE them before they are sent out again?

[Jim Ritter]

A friend of mine actually did send his plane blades and chisels out for sharpening! When he showed me the blades I was horrified, it looked like they had been sharpened on the sidewalk, and they weren't even sharp.
I gave him a prototype jig I've been working on and showed him how to use it.
Whoever did the professional sharpening should have been shaved with one of those tools for punishment.
Jim

[James Pallas]

Michael, I really know your struggle with this issue. You get the impression sometimes from some of the posts here. It seems that there is a feeling that your work is somehow rougher and you don't need good chisels. You do need the best you can get. You do do very fine work equivalent to any furniture maker. You are also expected to make your work look good no matter how fine the work was that proceeded you. A lot of scribing and fitting and a lot of chisel work. I never tried Japanese chisels but I would sure give them a try. They are made to be hit with metal and should hold up well. Edge retention should be good from what I have read. They should sharpen just fine in the field if necessary. I know you aren't pounding away with a rigging ax buy a decent one with advice from Stanley or , Brian or Derek and give it a go. As the saying goes " Been there, done that". I always try to buy the best tool for the job, cost does not apply in this case.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

It was a bit of a brave move suggesting a Carpenter with 30yrs experience might need to do some research on how to sharpen a chisel. Kudos to Michael for not spitting the dummy on that bit of advise.
Yeah, I agree. Sometimes it pays to listen more carefully. Also in this same vein, I'm sure he knows how to use his hammer very well and I can see why a carpenter doesn't want or need multiple tools to do the same job. A 12 ounce hammer should be fine with a chisel.