opinions needed regarding "baking" wood

[Chad Fitzgerald]

I have a customer requesting wooded beer steins. his previous supplier no longer makes them.
they will be octagon shaped. will be using black "plasite"(food safe) for the interior of the steins to make them watertight, and usable for hot and cold drinks. Plasite needs to be force cured at 225 degrees for 4 hours. I planned on using titebond 2 wood glue. each stein will be made with multiple types of hardwood.
Question: Is titebond 2 the glue to use? will i have an issue with the glue or wood at that temp.? After baking, how long should i wait to apply the outside finish?(not real sure on what finish i will use on the outside, either my normal cat conversion varnish or??.)
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Chad

[Doug Hepler]

Chad

As a professional, you may know more than I do about this. But I do know that PVA adhesives are thermoplastic until they have fully cured. I believe that Titebond III is less thermoplastic than the other PVA formulations and more waterproof. If you support the glue joints during heating the joints should be normally strong after they cool.

Will your customer put these mugs in a dishwasher? I don't know how well Titebond III will stand up to that over many washings. Consider an epoxy.

Interesting question to start the day

Doug

[Chad Fitzgerald]

they will be labeled as NO dishwasher or microwave.
My thought is: glue up the octagon, once set glue on the bottom of the mug, let sit overnight, clean up/sand and apply the plasite to the interior of the mug and bake.
So by the time it goes into the oven the glue would be set and cured already. which is where my concern is, with the movement of the wood during the baking process, will it want to crack?
Hmmmm.
Something else to think about: my customer sells them as guaranteed not to leak: I guess i will have to drink a beer out of each one to make sure, right.... at 100-300 per order, i may need some help.hehehe
chad

[John TenEyck]

I don't think Titebond or other PVAc glues will stay bonded at those temps. if there's even a little stress on any of the joints. I'd use Plastic Resin Glue or epoxy. Both will easily take 225°F.

After baking, I think you need to wait a day or two prior to finishing so the wood can re-acclimate to the RH.

John

[Dan Hahr]

I always thought that eating up a glue joint was a good way to take it apart.
Dan

[Jamie Buxton]

Yeah, I think PVA isn't the right stuff. I'd try epoxy instead. And if that softens at that temp, resorcenal. (I visited a wooden-boat yard a couple weeks ago. They are building a wooden boat that is a hundred feet long. The hull planking is three inches thick. It is steam bent to conform to the hull. They scarf shorter planks together to get the required lengths. They scarf with resorcenal, having found that epoxy doesn't survive the steaming process.) Resorcenal is hazardous, so use it with care.

[Chad Fitzgerald]

resorcenal?? what is is, curious?

i was afraid of the titebond and that temp.
Is there an epoxy glue or plastic resin glue that either of you would recommend. I have always used titebond so am unfamiliar with the others. have never needed to bake anything before.
Thanks

[John Lanciani]

his previous supplier no longer makes them.
Chad



Something else to think about: my customer sells them as guaranteed not to leak
chad

There might be a good reason that the previous supplier stopped making these. I'd want to know that reason before I spent much time trying to figure out how to make them.

[Alan Schwabacher]

There are lots of hits from a search for "high temperature glue" but I don't have experience with these. There are types of epoxy that will soften on warming, but others that will only cure at quite high temperatures. I think your best bet may be to contact an adhesive vendor and see what they have to say. System Three sells a lot of kinds of epoxy -- one might be appropriate. Masterbond is a company that came up on the high temperature glue search: they have a page listing 7 different high temperature glues.

If you don't mind a black line between wood sections, you might test whether the Plastite you plan to use for the lining will serve as a wood glue.

"Resorcinol" is spelled that way. It should have good water and heat resistance, but would also leave a dark line.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

A quick google on "plastite foodsafe" found a plastite named carboline that sets at room temperature if left long enough - but I think this is probably not what you are planning on using because I don't see any way to spray it evenly on the inside of your steins.

If what you are using (or your customer) permits it, how about making the liner as an insert and just gluing it into place when the stein is just about ready to go out the door? maybe leave a small ridge around the inside of the top, then insert the liner from the bottom right along with the bottom itself. That way the user can't see the liner edge and assembly is easy.

If you don't mind the weight, you can buy fairly thin, dishwasher/microwave proof, polycarbonate tumblers for not much at all and simply build around them.

[Doug Hepler]

Chad,

My point is that PVA takes longer than 24 hours to fully cure i.e. lose its thermoplasticity. I don't know how long that would take. Maybe Franklin tech support could help you with this. (I know that a veneer to substrate glue joint can be softened within 24 hours with a hot iron but eventually the glue will not soften.) That's why I'd suggest a band clamp or such to support the joint while baking if you use Titebond III. If you are worried about wood movement, use KD stock or dry them yourself (pre-bake). Twice baked mugs -- sounds like biscotti. Obviously some experimentation is in order.

Doug

Doug

[Steve Peterson]

my customer sells them as guaranteed not to leak: I guess i will have to drink a beer out of each one to make sure, right.... at 100-300 per order, i may need some help.hehehe
chad

I will be right over to help. btw: my favorite beer is Newcastle Brown.

Steve

[John TenEyck]

Titebond is a PVAc glue. It will always be thermoplastic, no matter how long it cures. You can often disassemble a Titebond glued joint by heating it and pulling it apart with reversed clamps.

John

[John TenEyck]

resorcenal?? what is is, curious?

i was afraid of the titebond and that temp.
Is there an epoxy glue or plastic resin glue that either of you would recommend. I have always used titebond so am unfamiliar with the others. have never needed to bake anything before.
Thanks



Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue is the one I use. http://www.dap.com/dap-products-ph/weldwood-plastic-resin-glue/

I buy it at my local ACE Hardware. It is my preferred glue for veneer work because it cures to a hard, creep resistant bond. It is a urea formaldehyde thermoset resin meaning that, after curing, it will not soften with heat.

John

[Chad Fitzgerald]

thanks for all the tips and thoughts.
everyone is welcome for the testing!!!!!
last supplier lost his partner and therefore downsizing.
found systems 3 and will call them as well as check pout the others that are recommended here.
Again, appreciate all the advice.
chad

[Bill Jobe]

Is there any way you could turn them without gluing, using hose clamps or such, then burn the inside with a torch like they do whiskey barrels, then glue them?

[Kevin Jenness]

Resorcinol would perform well if you can tolerate the dark purple glueline. Urea formaldehyde (powdered plastic resin, Unibond 800) would work well with less prominent joints. Titebond and similar pva glues would suffer due to thermoplasticity, with Titebond 3 faring the worst (http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af - follow the link and check on the "physical properties" tab). West system epoxy loses considerable strength above 180 F- there may be other formulations that do not.

I would be concerned about the wood drying out during the liner curing process and would try to keep the humidity above 30% RH. Assuming the wood's moisture content is not affected you should be able to apply your wood finish once the steins are back to room temp and the plastic is fully cured.

[Howard Acheson]

I strongly suggest you contact Franklyn International (mfg of Titebond) and discuss your needs. They have a excellent tech group and will be happy to speak with you.

Standard adhesives generally do not perform in hot applications.

[Bill Jobe]

I watched many videos last night on barrel making. I really think you could use that same technic to make your mugs. That way would eliminate all concerns about glues.
Consider checking that out. You make the staves, attach a metal ring to one end by loose fitting them together, then you apply heat inside the piece and wet the inside with water while applying heat. This makes the staves flexible enough to drive a ring on the center where it's the widest. Then you force the other end to fit into a bottom that has a groove. Then you turn the piece up side down and hammer the rings down to pull it all together tight and you have your piece sealed with no glue. You could then bake it and if it looses up all you'd have to do is drive the metal rings farther towards the middle.

There are a whole lot of videos on youtube showing the process. There was even one with a guy making a beer mug using this process.
No chemicals to worry about.
I might even give it a try myself.
Before you decide on which glue is best please check this out. Just the satisfaction of making them without glue would really be pleasing, I think.

[Bill Jobe]

Many years ago I watched a tv program that showed a guy making about a 14 or 15 foot cattle trough using this technic. It was fascinating how it was done. Again, no glue to worry about.
In my opinion any glue you use is going to react differently to the baking than will the wood. I think that will be problematic.
And after all, a beer stein is nothing more than a small barrel.