Looking for dust collection advice

[tony j kent]

I have a 300 shop and I do woodworking for a hobby on the weekends and after work (about 15 hours a week at the moment). I’m currently using 2.5” shop vac + dust deputy on a cart that I wheel around my shop. Once a week I blow out all the dust from my shop. I have a Jet AFS-1000B air filter hanging from the ceiling which helps. My biggest concerns are the fine dust I can’t see that I’m breathing and the fine dust I can see everywhere.
I want to upgrade my system and here’s my short list of options:
1. Basic Harbor Freight , Jet or Griz Dust collect + top hat Thien Baffle + Wynn canister (could be 1.5 hp 110V or 2hp 220V)
2. Grizzly G0703P 1.5 hp Cyclone (includes canister filter + remote control). On sale for $675 (seems roughly equivalent to the Jet 1.5hp that costs about $1050)
3. Grizzly or Jet 220V 2hp Cyclone ($1500-$2000)

#1 is doable – But I have little spare time outside my regular job that I would rather spend it on woodworking, not building a Dust Collector. My research tells me a cyclone is superior to a Thien baffle.

I’m leaning towards #2 because I live 90 minutes from a Grizzly showroom, all the features are included and the price seems to double for the 220V 2hp units ($1500-$2000). For the moment I’m happy to move a hose from machine to machine like I do today. Eventually I might want to run ducting around my walls to my machines. The main trunk would be less than 20 feet long and have no more than 2 right angle turns (hopefully just one right angle in one corner of my shop) . Only one machine at a time will be used. I would rather not have to pay $1500+ for a 2HP cyclone if I don’t really need it. I would rather spend the difference on other tools like a drum sander or downdraft table. I’m not looking to build a perfect DC system but one that does the job adequately and doesn’t leave me wishing I had got something bigger a year from now. I know eventually I need to do a better job of capturing dust at the source than the standard ports on the tools have but right now. However, at the moment, I’m not really to deal with elaborate hoods or overhead collection above my table saw. Most of my current tools are hobby grade that I bought used and have 2.5” ports. (eg. Delta contractor saw, ridgid band saw, kreg router table). The one exception is my minimax jointer/planer with 5” (120mm) ports. A couple of upgrades I would like to make in the next 5 years are a sawstop table saw and a drum sander.

Exhausting the DC outside is also an option (instead of a filter) if I build a sound baffle – my neighbor’s house is 20 feet away from my shop and I assume an unmuffled exhaust would be to noisy.

I can afford a 2HP or better unit, but since I'm still working with fairly inexpensive power tools, I think the money would be better spent on other things. I’m still reading Bill Pentz site.

I know it won’t be perfect, but will the 1.5hp Grizzly cyclone do the job for the next few years? Or , in 6 months will I be wishing I had spent more than twice as much on a 2hp DC. Advice and opinions are welcome.

Tony
Ars ex Machina

[Wade Lippman]

I used a 1.5hp cyclone and ran a 10' hose to the tool. It worked fine.
I would rather have a 2hp, but that is a darned good price.

Natually it depends on what you are using it for. I would want more than 1.5hp on a 20 planer or a big drum sander.

[Brian W Smith]

We're spoiled rotten here....building systems from the ground up to include most fittings (we have a pretty durn complete sheet metal shop).

A decent 3 or maybe 5 HP cyclone,another 1 1/2 HP Cyclone,and a cpl 2 HP baggers....is about all you could ask for in a small pro shop.vs,one big system.You are under the regulatory radar,and if one system breaks down,it's just not a game stopper.Throw in sleeved,QC joints...like said,spoiled.

As an adjunct,most DC port design(B.P. drops the ball here),from the factory is woefully bad.To the point that the recommended systems are bigger than they really need.Rolling your own machine ports is the obvious solution,just sayin.Best of luck with your system'S.

[David Gutierrez]

just my 2 cents but I found it a pain to be constantly moving the hose and DC from machine to machine. Also got tired of stepping over the hose. I have a 2 hp griz with the canister filter. I do have a bad back so the constant bending over is a problem for me.
now contemplating building permanent duct work. using the pentz sizing calculator I am finding that 3 hp is what is required for my small shop.

[Jim Dwight]

I'm using a shop vac with dust deputy right now too. I sold a 1 hp Delta DC I used in the last shop becaude I am not sure I have space for a DC, I used my track saw and other tools that the shop vac works well with a lot, and my little 1 hp didn't always do what needed done. If I replace it, it will be with a HF 2hp modified with a super dust deputy and discharging outside. I used the Delta with inadequate filtration until the last itteration and I am convinced that is worse than no dust collection. It blows the fine stuff up where you can breathe it. I added a cartridge at the end but I hated cleaning it. A cyclone would help that a lot - it does on the shop vac. If you look, you can find you tubes where people did the HF/super dust deputy setup. It's going to cost around $500, however, so it's worthwhile to be sure a Grizzly isn't cheap enough you can avoid the work.

[Andy Giddings]

I went with option 1 using a Shop Fox 1.5HP, Wynn filter retrofit and Oneida Super Dust Deputy. I did try a Thien baffle before the Deputy and it worked well. As you stated, Tony, the cyclone is supposedly more efficient which is why I switched. Based on my few months experience, very little dust gets through to the poly bag under the filter.

I've just run 6 inch metal duct to the center of my shop (or double garage :-)) as I'll only have a couple of machines using DC. One will be a combo machine and the other is a router table. As I only switch between these two, I can keep the flex hose run to a minimum which helps keep air resistance down. Also, as Brian mentioned, a 4 inch dust port really doesn't help you so have enlarged mine to 5.

If I had to do it all over again I would probably do the same as I have plenty of air flow (around 900CFM at the end of the metal duct with a 5 inch reducer fitted). Regardless of which way you go, Tony, you can get by with the lower power DC as long as you pay attention to the duct work and use an efficient cyclone and filter. Lumberjocks reviewed the Grizzly Cyclone recently so might be worth exchanging views with the posters there before making a choice. I would avoid the HF unless you also increase the impeller size. I believe the HF impeller is about an inch smaller in dia than the Jet/Shop Fox/Delta range

[Jim Becker]

My comment...you cannot have "too much" dust collection capability and re-buying is usually more expensive than putting in a great solution up-front.

[John K Jordan]

My comment...you cannot have "too much" dust collection capability and re-buying is usually more expensive than putting in a great solution up-front.

That's exactly what I struggled with when designing my shop. I was frustrated with the shop vac method in my little garage shop and I knew I didn't want to do that any more. I didn't want to spend the money for a big cyclone but I only wanted to do it once so I just bit the bullet. In retrospect, I'm so glad I did. It was painful to spend the money and do the installation but it's done now and the cost is starting to look pretty small spread out over a few years so far. Also, I know several people who had to quit working with wood completely because they developed lung problems. The cost of a cyclone is probably less than that of medical treatment.

I put in a 5 hp ClearVue cyclone with ducts overhead in the trusses and 6" drops to major tools. Man, this think sucks!

The sound level from a big cyclone exhaust can wake the dead. Maybe they can demonstrate this in the store.

What ever you (Tony) decide, I highly recommend putting the DC in a closet of some sort to deaden the noise. The sound from a big cyclone is painful and damaging to hearing - outside my closet (6" walls, staggered stud construction) I can carry on normal conversation. I put the big air compressor in there too.

JKJ

[RDave Evans]

That's exactly what I struggled with when designing my shop. I was frustrated with the shop vac method in my little garage shop and I knew I didn't want to do that any more. I didn't want to spend the money for a big cyclone but I only wanted to do it once so I just bit the bullet. In retrospect, I'm so glad I did. It was painful to spend the money and do the installation but it's done now and the cost is starting to look pretty small spread out over a few years so far. Also, I know several people who had to quit working with wood completely because they developed lung problems. The cost of a cyclone is probably less than that of medical treatment.

I put in a 5 hp ClearVue cyclone with ducts overhead in the trusses and 6" drops to major tools. Man, this think sucks!

The sound level from a big cyclone exhaust can wake the dead. Maybe they can demonstrate this in the store.

What ever you (Tony) decide, I highly recommend putting the DC in a closet of some sort to deaden the noise. The sound from a big cyclone is painful and damaging to hearing - outside my closet (6" walls, staggered stud construction) I can carry on normal conversation. I put the big air compressor in there too.

JKJ


I appreciate this comment as it is not something I have given too much thought. I am at the same place as the OP so great timing on the thread.

[Chris Padilla]

Everyone has a different way they enter into DC. Some ease in with shop-vacs and then a mobile DC and then eventually to a wall-mounted cyclone. I tend to jump in with both feet and went the cyclone route skipping the mobile DC.

You'll want at least a 14" impeller and at least 3 hp turning it and most likely sitting atop a cyclone.

You'll want at least 6" ducting (I went PVC...ASTM 2729 S&D) everywhere and take the 6" as far as you can to the equipment before TAPERING down to the equipment's opening. Better yet, modify the equipment's opening to 6" if possible.

Finally, you'll want some nice 6" blast gates that are self-cleaning but better is to automate them. I got my blast gates from Lee Valley. My gates are NOT automated but maybe one day I'll do it.

Other nice things to have are level sensors for how full your bin is.

And John is right on with the noise: your impeller isn't far off in design to becoming an air-raid siren. Always wear hearing protection or put it outside or in a closet/box enclosure.

If you vent/exhaust the DC outside, you are done but if you need to keep it inside, get some nice filters for it. However, if you are conditioning the air in your shop, you'll be sending it outside if you vent outside so keep that in mind.

Fun, eh? :)

[Larry Frank]

An option for you is to look at used ones. I just looked at the Seattle CL and there are several available. I think you could find one and with a little work have a good system for your shop.

I am trying to sell one in my area and not many lookers.

[Jim Becker]

One of the reasons for my previous comment was that I am one of the folks that started out with a smaller cyclone (1.5hp) and had to spend the money to replace it when I bought my J/P combo...the smaller machine just couldn't keep up with the wider machine. I have no regrets, but it ultimately cost me more to do it twice, even though I was able to sell the original unit for a reasonable sum.

[John Hann]

Tony,
I am a hobbyist with a 12 x 24 shop with hobbyist type machines. Old Delta Unisaw, 6" Jet Jointer, Dewalt benchtop planer, etc. I have been using a 1 1/2 hp shop fox dust collector for 12 years. I had 10 feet of flex hose on it and moved it from machine to machine. It worked fine. Kept up with all my tools but did leave a thin film of dust everywhere. I always wanted to put a cartridge filter on it and recently thought about putting a Super Dust Deputy on it as well, but never pulled the trigger.
About a month ago the motor on the DC croaked. Looked into fixing or replacing the motor but it didn't make sense cost wise especially if I wanted a cartridge filter and cyclone as well. After 12 years and who knows how many thousands of hours of use, I got my money out of the old DC. I ended up buying the Grizzly 1 1/2 hp cyclone you mentioned. At the sale price, it is less than the cost of the components to put together a DC with cartridge filter, cyclone, collection drum, etc.
Put it together this week and used it for a few hours. I am currently moving the hose from machine to machine, but that is what I am used to, so I am fine with it. It definitely filters much better than the bag filtered DC and there is nothing in the collection bag under the filter. I am very pleased with the operation, although it is louder than th old DC.
My only complaint is that it does not come with an electrical plug. The casters are also a little iffy. It is heavier than my old DC but still easy to roll around.
I suppose a larger cyclone would be nice but there is no way I can justify the additional cost. This will keep the shop as clean as a larger unit, I just have to move it around.
Good Luck with your decision,
John

[Al Launier]

Another "hobbyist" woodworker as well, with the same start-up problems of dust/sawdust control. I went with the HF dust collector (http://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-industrial-5-micron-dust-collector-97869.html) & decided to use the Rockler "Dust Right" system (http://www.rockler.com/search/go?w=dust%20right). I set up each machine with the appropriate DR port to accept a 21' long, 4" dia. flexible hose. Although not as convenient as having each maching hard ducted, it's easy & quick to hook the flex hose to whatever machine i want to use. Once used, I simply coil it up next to the HF DC leaving the shop clear to walk around.

I also installed a Rikon air filtration system (http://www.woodcraft.com/product/857601/rikon-3-speed-air-cleaner-400-cfm.aspx) to clear the air.

My shop is set up in the basement next to a finished living area & this has worked well in keeping the living area isolated from the shop & it's "contaminants & odors" .

[Jon Endres]

I have a Shop Fox 2-hp DC with OEM bags and a Delta air cleaner in my basement shop. I also use the Rockler Dust-Right system and I find it easy to connect tools to a flex hose as I need them. The Shop Fox does a good job picking up the dust from the tools I connect it to but it blows a lot of fine dust through the bag and I often have to run the air cleaner for a couple of hours to get rid of the haze in the air. My new garage workshop, which I am hoping to occupy in about two months, I'm going to keep the same DC but upgrade it with a Super Dust Deputy and a Wynn canister filter. I'll also keep the air cleaner. I only use my DC with my planer and jointer right now, but I am going to hard-duct the main DC run and put in flex drops for other tools that could use occasional duct collection.

[Ole Anderson]

Just a thought: IMO, a good dust collector is the best investment you can make in your shop. Why? It augments almost all of your power tools. It keeps your lungs clean and healthy, it keeps things clean. If $1500-$2000 is not out of reach, I suggest you get a 3 hp cyclone and install at least a main duct with a few drops. Ultimately you want to just be a able to turn on the DC, open a blast gate and go to work on your project. I started with a PSI 1 hp drag-around double bagger. It sort of worked, but OMG, the difference when I went to my 2 hp cyclone with a full duct system. No comparison. Just regret not paying the extra $200 for the 3 hp Oneida SDG. Quite a difference in performance specs.

[Randall J Cox]

I'm in the same boat but a bit further along. Got tired of tripping over flex 2.5" from the shop vac and little cyclone. Just bought a Powermatic 1.75 HP single stage, on sale, and Wynn nano filter. Putting in my dust collection ductwork now, what a pain trying to get stuff to fit together. Looked high and low for supplier of the lightweight pvc sewer and drain stuff, no such luck, 4" and 6" everywhere but no 5". I didn't think I'd have enough velocity to use 6" for all of my runs after reading Pentz's (ClearVue Cyclone) in depth writeup. Gave up and going with metal. Been working on it for a a month now... maybe in another week or two it will be totally functioning. I'm running 6" main with 5" to all the machines. Making 5" ports for all the machines has really slowed me down. I have a small shop (300 sq ft) and don't have room for a cyclone, hence the single stage. Randy

[Chris Padilla]

Randy,

PVC is only available in even diameters from 4" on up so that is its main downside. Metal, as you found out, is available in just about all integer diameters.

[Wade Lippman]

An option for you is to look at used ones. I just looked at the Seattle CL and there are several available. I think you could find one and with a little work have a good system for your shop.

I am trying to sell one in my area and not many lookers.

Aside from saving money, it is great to buy used and actually sell at a profit when you upgrade. I have done that a few times. Oh, I know it is just inflation, but it feels good.

[tony j kent]

Thanks for all the great input. I ended up buy the Grizzly 2HP Cyclone (G0440) . I figured I would spend the extra to never worry about upgrading for my shop and it gives me the option of putting in ducting to all my machines. I am worried about how loud it will be (14.5 inch steel impeller) but I always wear hearing protection when running my planer/jointer, router or table saw.

Im working on installing it now. I'll let you know how it goes.

[tony j kent]

Thanks for the input everyone. I decided to buy the Grizzly 2hp cyclone (G0440) . I'm really happy with it despite having to return the first one they gave me. Here's a photo of the Griz cyclone compared to the dusty deputy and some other photos showing the installation.

I drove 2 hours to pick up the unit from the showroom. When I unpacked it I noticed some parts were badly damaged (including the 1/4 inch steel flange on the cyclone). Something very bad happened to this unit. Grizzly customer service were excellent and agreed to replace the entire unit. However, I did have to pack it all up and get the pallet back on my truck and drive it back to the showroom. That was a PITA and caused a 5 day delay getting it installed. This was my first major purchase from Grizzly. The initial quality control was awful and cost me time and money, However, now that its up and running I love it.

I've spent hours reading Bill Pentz site. For now I'm using flex 6" and 4" flex hose that I plug into different machines. I will upgrade to 6" PVC ducts shortly. I just need to work out the best way to connect a 6" flex hose to my 120mm dust port on my Minimax J/P.

Two things I learnt from the experience:

1. Stay away from the Woodstock 4" dust collection kit. The flex hose is junk - It's going in the garbage can.
2. If installing on a wall, rent a material lift - it made things so easy. I dont know how I would have managed without it.


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[Andy Giddings]

Looks good Tony, Regarding the 120mm port - if its the same size as Felder and Hammer then a 5 inch flex hose should be an ok fit onto the port. If you want to go 6 inch all the way to the J/P, a 6-5 reducer from Oneida or elsewhere would allow a relatively snug fit as well (they also do 6 to 120 but the smaller dia would then be the same as your port). There are also flexible plumbing couplings that would work (look at Fernco's site)

[Jim Dwight]

I did a bit of research after posting my first comment and this one. A key thing I didn't remember is Bill Pentz's health. Most of us serious about DC have visited his very helpful website. Bill says we need 1000 cfm at the tool to control the fine dust. I think he has a very good basis for this input but I see a couple issues with it. First, Bill cannot tolerate even common household dust. He has to have a very fine filter going in his house to avoid becoming ill. So his standards for shop air are influenced by his condition. He also cites OSHA but wants to be better than that and OSHA specifies a level to avoid health impacts if we are exposed for 8 hours continuously. I have neither the stamina nor the time to woodwork for 8 hours a day. Long way saying the 1000 cfm at the machine is conservative but more than I think I need.

Another input to my way of thinking is the Dylos test results posted on this website. It shows outside air with readings as high as 6000 1um particles (I think per square meter) and shop air getting to this level occasionlly but falling rapidly with continued DC and/or air filter running. Like back down to pretty low levels in 5-10 minutes. Now in a commercial shop with somebody using a dusty tool somewhere in the shop all the time, the level could stay up. But in my shop, tools do not run continuously. So I may see high levels briefly but not continuously. And with reasonably effective dust collection - like 1.5 or 2 hp units - the test results say we do not get to the thousands level ever. Hundreds at worst which is not an unusual outside dust level. Another useful input is that not using overhead suction at the table saw makes a big difference.

What I get out of the various inputs is that I can be reasonably safe with effective collection at the source and either good air movement through the shop or air filtration. I want to improve the collection particularly at my CMS and RAS.

A comment Mr. Pentz makes is that airflow of as little as 50cfm at the source can get rid of the dust. The reason we need 1000 cfm is we want to pull all the air from a sphere where our tool throws it. If we can improve the collection, the sphere shrinks and the necessary cfm falls rapidly.

So my next efforts are on collection, not moving huge volumes of air. That will help regardless and it costs a lot less than a 5hp DC. I'm going to put a Kapex dust chute on my CMS and maybe some whiskers too. Maybe put a shark guard (recommended by Bill Pentz) on my table saw. I don't think you can be effective with only a big DC. You need to work on collection too.

Another thing I kind of remembered but didn't quantify is the vast difference in a shop vacuum and a DC. A shop vacuum might be able to move 200 cfm, maybe. Festools are rated 130 to 137 cfm. Feins a little over 150. Cheaper ones move a little more air, at least according to their manufacturer but won't pull against resistance as well. Typical Rigid rating is 55-65 inches of water with Feins and Festools in the high 90s. But even a big 5hp DC will only pull 12 inches or less. Big or small, DCs don't work effectively when there isn't enough area for air movement. So they aren't going to do a lot pulling on my track saw or CMS dust port. People leave a blast gate open which keeps air moving in the duct but doesn't increase air at the little port. Shop vac is better suited to small openings.

[Bud Millis]

That's exactly what I struggled with when designing my shop. I was frustrated with the shop vac method in my little garage shop and I knew I didn't want to do that any more. I didn't want to spend the money for a big cyclone but I only wanted to do it once so I just bit the bullet. In retrospect, I'm so glad I did. It was painful to spend the money and do the installation but it's done now and the cost is starting to look pretty small spread out over a few years so far. Also, I know several people who had to quit working with wood completely because they developed lung problems. The cost of a cyclone is probably less than that of medical treatment.

I put in a 5 hp ClearVue cyclone with ducts overhead in the trusses and 6" drops to major tools. Man, this think sucks!

The sound level from a big cyclone exhaust can wake the dead. Maybe they can demonstrate this in the store.

What ever you (Tony) decide, I highly recommend putting the DC in a closet of some sort to deaden the noise. The sound from a big cyclone is painful and damaging to hearing - outside my closet (6" walls, staggered stud construction) I can carry on normal conversation. I put the big air compressor in there too.

JKJ

If your getting a lot of noise off the 5 hp ClearVue me thinks you got a problem with the unit. My Oneida SDG 5hp generates 80 db. So your asking what 80 db sounds like - a busy street or alarm clock; 70db is a phone ringtone or busy traffic; 60 db is a normal conservation; or 90db is factory machinery at 3 feet or 100db is the blow dryer that your wife uses. I found the HF DC to be louder than the Oneida SDG cyclone.

Also you stated, "The sound from a big cyclone is painful and damaging to hearing." Well, when using machinery you should be using earplugs, etc to protect your hearing.


Interpretation of sounds, dyspnea, etc. is personal and subjective. My wife likes the TV loud - volume level around 27 which equals about 30-40 db which is a quiet whisper/library to quiet residential area/park. I think that is too loud and try to get her to turn it lower. When I watch TV the volume level is set to 12 which is about < 20db.


Tony,

To answer your question, the HF DC with a Wynn style filter (I went with the Oneida HEPA filter which is pretty much the same thing) did a good job. That will work good on planers up to 15" like a Delta 380. Depending on your equipment that should determine what to go with. Things to keep in mind are location of the major producers of chips/dust like planer/molders and jointers. No matter what way you go, go with a HEPA filter that filters down to 3 microns.

Bud

[Jim Becker]

just need to work out the best way to connect a 6" flex hose to my 120mm dust port on my Minimax J/P.

Reduce to 5" with a metal 6-5" reducer after the gate and use a rubber Fernco sewer pipe connector to adapt to the 120mm port. The 5" flex hose will go "over" the rubber and the rubber will go over the port with a nearly exact fit. I use these for both my MiniMax J/P and my MiniMax slider.

[Greg Peterson]

Dust collection on most tools is questionable at best. I have had to modify all my tools or implement additional dust collect systems in addition to the tools claimed dust collection system.
In short, don't expect any DC system to solve the problem. You will be left to your own devices to capture the fines.

[Chris Parks]

IIRC BP's health issues were caused by wood dust and his insistence of 1000 cfm are a result of that and his ongoing issues have not influenced that criteria at all except I presume to reinforce it. Being a weekend warrior is not a good reason to short change yourself when putting in a dust extraction system but the noise is a definite problem that has to be addressed. The first time I turned on my CV cyclone I turned it off before it reached full speed because I thought it was going to explode and I had done something wrong but wow I can stand beside it without ear defenders and talk normally. It will cost a lot over and above the purchase price to install but medical bills are always more expensive.

[Greg Peterson]

A good DC system, the best you can afford, is a big piece of the puzzle. Nouse is a consideration, but this can be solved.

That said, hooking up your machine to the best DC, but fines are going to be ejected into your airspace if you rely exclusively on the factory dust ports on your equipment.
Effective dust collection starts at capturing the fines as close as possible at the point of creation.

[tony j kent]

Thanks Jim

[Greg Parrish]

Mounting the unit on the wall could be the source of extra noise. I think stand mounting isolates some of the sound caused by vibration energy transferred to the wall causing the wall to act like a large transducer. Like someone mentioned above I can stand right next to my stand mounted Oneida v3000 with no ear plugs and have a fairly normal conversation. It's sound is a very deep whooshing sound but not to overly loud.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Robert Engel]

Don't depend on your DC system to protect your lungs!

Looks like a good system and its good that you have an air cleaner, but IMO you still need personal protection, especially when dealing with MDF or sanding.

I strongly recommend a respirator (not the cheap dust masks) like 3M.

I vent outside and find its like a dryer vent, just about 5X as loud. Nothing like the DC running. Talk to your neighbors (frequently). They may not say much at first, but things can change.