New Bench, if I don't go crazy first

[Mark Rice]

I am new to the site. I have done some woodworking. I have done cabinets, log furniture, speakers and other stuff. When we moved here the wife wanted the perfect house so we bought this one and she said, "Remodel it". I said, "What do you want remodeled?" She said, "The bonus room needs to be remodeled into an office. When that is done there needs to be a bedroom and bathroom in the basement so we have a toilet and shower while we rip out the bedrooms and bathrooms upstairs and make a master suite, master bath, walk in closet and powder room. After that is done we will talk about the kitchen." I set up shop and modified my reloading bench to a workbench and hit the ground running. I dropped dead trees on our property and milled them into lumber for the trim and cabinets. I am done with the bedrooms, bathrooms and her office. Now it is time to stop tripping over stuff and losing tools in the pile that occupies my shop. First step is a new workbench. I am tired of figuring out ways of clamping projects to my old workbench.

Requirements:
1. Solid
2. Will last forever
3. Will act as a feed table for the table saw and planer.
4. Is moveable.
5. Can be used as an assembly table for large projects.

I started on the top. I am laminating Douglas fir 2X6 lumber. The target thickness is five inches thick. I have Douglas fir lumber that a friend let me mill from his log pile. That will be used for the base. The legs will be 5X5. I am planning on a mix between a Roubo and Shaker type bench. It will use pneumatic lifting cylinders to raise the table with the wheels. Air it up and it will rise about 3/4 of an inch. I can move it then let the air out and it will settle on the floor.

It will have two tail vises, one leg vise and one end vise. I wanted to build one tail vise. The acme thread I bought was only 20.00 more if I bought the 6' rather than the 3' length. That gave me enough for two tail vises and my leg vise. For about 180.00 I have two tail vises and my leg vise (not including machining).

These are the basic drawings. If anyone has any suggestions or notices any oversights please let me know. Thanks.

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[george wilson]

Those are great drawings! I wish I knew how to use a computer that well! And,I admire your ability to mill your own lumber. My own yard is full of LARGE loblolly pines. I had to take down 7 just to build my shop building,and because some were just unsafe. The biggest pine was 32" at the base. I hated to see it go to the pulp mill,but they were cut in the Spring when full of sap. I have taken down 3 or 4 more since then because they are dangerous when they get that large,looming over the house.

I wish I had a Wood Mizer,but really don't have the need for that much pine. My friend and co worker in the museum's tool maker's shop does mill logs a lot. He has 100 acres,and purchased tractor trailer bodies to store walnut and other wood he has cut.

Anyway,too bad you have to buy the "ideal"(?) house,and rebuild it! We did a lot of refurbishing in this 1949 house,but not the type of rebuilding you are talking about. I just about used up the last of my "endurance" remodeling this one,being 75 now.

[ken hatch]

Mark,

Like most things in life, everyone has different needs but one thing I've learned over the years is most multi-purpose tools do not do as good a job as purpose built tools. An exception to that rule is the combination square but I can't think of very many others.

An example, while a work bench can be used for an assembly table it is less than ideal because if it is a good work bench it will be too high and too narrow. A work bench shouldn't be much over 600mm wide and around 900mm tall. An assembly table will be better suited for assembly work if it is about half as tall and twice or more as wide. As a feed table, maybe. It depends on your machines but most good planers have a table that changes height, mine has a 200mm range of movement. It would be tough to move a work bench's height that much.

Vises, a single face vise be it leg, English QR, or twin screw will take care of 98% of your holding needs. Some kind of tail vise will do the other 2%, more vises just tend to get in the way of doing work.

As for solid I can go for that, last forever, maybe....Over the years as my needs have changed I've found it easier to build a new work bench vs. modding the old one.

Build it strong, heavy, quickly, and cheap. Simple is good, it is a work bench not fine furniture.

As with all things wood.....YMMV.

One last thing....You asked and free advise is worth what you paid for it.

ken

[Mark Rice]

Thanks for the kudos on the drawings.
I use an Alaskan sawmill. The remodel budget didn't allow for a band saw mill. It actually worked out pretty good. Hardly any of our property is flat so I can mill the logs in place and stack the slabs on a trailer rather than drag them onto the trailer and bring them close to the house. We don't have any hardwoods. Most of ours is ponderosa pine. I use the trees killed off by the beetles. I love the stain but I would never use it for anything like a mission style chair.

I hate remodeling.

[Mark Rice]

Mark,

Like most things in life, everyone has different needs but one thing I've learned over the years is most multi-purpose tools do not do as good a job as purpose built tools. An exception to that rule is the combination square but I can't think of very many others.

An example, while a work bench can be used for an assembly table it is less than ideal because if it is a good work bench it will be too high and too narrow. A work bench shouldn't be much over 600mm wide and around 900mm tall. An assembly table will be better suited for assembly work if it is about half as tall and twice or more as wide. As a feed table, maybe. It depends on your machines but most good planers have a table that changes height, mine has a 200mm range of movement. It would be tough to move a work bench's height that much.

Vises, a single face vise be it leg, English QR, or twin screw will take care of 98% of your holding needs. Some kind of tail vise will do the other 2%, more vises just tend to get in the way of doing work.

As for solid I can go for that, last forever, maybe....Over the years as my needs have changed I've found it easier to build a new work bench vs. modding the old one.

Build it strong, heavy, quickly, and cheap. Simple is good, it is a work bench not fine furniture.

As with all things wood.....YMMV.

One last thing....You asked and free advise is worth what you paid for it.

ken

All of my tables are the same height so I can use them in concert with each other. I build them at 35 3/4" high (right about where you recommend). That puts them right about my wrist height. My last projects required more room than I had on my bench. The next project is 72 inch tall cabinets for a 17 foot long wall. This bench is slightly larger than my old bench. My last project was a 82" long log dining table. That was a wrestling match. My space is limited and has to be used for maintaining vehicles and equipment so I have to clear out the space from time to time. Right now I have an ATV that needs a carburetor rebuild. It has to wait until I get this bench done.

I use a Makita portable planer. I have been screwing it to the top of the old bench when I need it and then remove it when I am done planing. I have nerfed some square steel channel into the end of this top so that I can mount my planer on a platform with channel that slide into the ones that are inset into the bench top. I can just slide the planer and the platform into the channel in the bench when I need the planer and put the planer away when I need it. I can use the same channel as an extension when I need to use other tools such as my chain saw chain grinder where I don't want to get my bench top grimy with gas or oil.

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Thanks for the advice. :)

[Prashun Patel]

A tail vise is nice, but it does limit what can be placed at the end. I wonder why you'd need such long travel on those. A shorter travel with more dog holes would allow full length support.

I have a leg vise too. Two things I do not like about it are it's narrow and I have to stoop to operate it. twin screw instead???

[Mark Rice]

A tail vise is nice, but it does limit what can be placed at the end. I wonder why you'd need such long travel on those. A shorter travel with more dog holes would allow full length support.

I have a leg vise too. Two things I do not like about it are it's narrow and I have to stoop to operate it. twin screw instead???

I haven't thought about the leg vise much. A twin screw is a pretty interesting idea. You are right, bending over is a big factor. Thanks, I am going to look into the twin screw thing.

[David Wong]

I would consider not using through mortises for the leg tenons. Since the bench doubles as an out feed table, the through tenon may seasonally interfere and require flattening. I am in the process of (slowly) building a split top bench with a 4" top. One thing that annoys me with using the bench top, is that I require longer f-clamps to use with the thicker top.

[Richard Line]

Consider moving the bottom stretcher up about 3 to 4 inches off the floor. This will give you toe space under the stretcher and make having it sit solid on the floor easier.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I'd attach the top with traditional mortise and tenon joints, holding the face of the leg flush with the front edge of the bench top. I'd also raise the bottom stretcher to a more traditional height and it does not need to be 5"x5"; 3"x5" is plenty stout, and you could probably get by with 2" x 5". That 5" top is going to give you plenty of mass. I have a leg vise; it looks cool; holds well, but it is not nearly as convenient as the quick release vise I have on my outfeed table. For dove tailing, I'll be adding a Moxon vise one of these days.

I'd try to keep the dog holes within 2" of the front edge of the bench. It looks like due to the long travel you are supporting for the tail vises that your dog holes will be about 6" deep. I like working thinner stock closer to the front edge of the bench. If you only make your legs 3" deep (again plenty stout) and want to keep your tail vise behind the leg, you would be 2" closer to the front edge. Hope this makes sense.

[Mark Rice]

Consider moving the bottom stretcher up about 3 to 4 inches off the floor. This will give you toe space under the stretcher and make having it sit solid on the floor easier.

I didn't even think about toe space. Good catch. Thanks.

[Mark Rice]

I'd attach the top with traditional mortise and tenon joints, holding the face of the leg flush with the front edge of the bench top. I'd also raise the bottom stretcher to a more traditional height and it does not need to be 5"x5"; 3"x5" is plenty stout, and you could probably get by with 2" x 5". That 5" top is going to give you plenty of mass. I have a leg vise; it looks cool; holds well, but it is not nearly as convenient as the quick release vise I have on my outfeed table. For dove tailing, I'll be adding a Moxon vise one of these days.

I'd try to keep the dog holes within 2" of the front edge of the bench. It looks like due to the long travel you are supporting for the tail vises that your dog holes will be about 6" deep. I like working thinner stock closer to the front edge of the bench. If you only make your legs 3" deep (again plenty stout) and want to keep your tail vise behind the leg, you would be 2" closer to the front edge. Hope this makes sense.
I just added the tail vises in without much thought about how much space from the edge and where I would actually put the dog holes. This makes sense. The leg vise isn't a priority right now. I am fighting with parts for the air lift so my brain is full so the leg vise is not my highest priority. I do a lot of long joints so it will be a priority later but not now.

I may take your advice on the size of the stretchers. After a point more weight is just more weight.

[Mark Rice]

Consider moving the bottom stretcher up about 3 to 4 inches off the floor. This will give you toe space under the stretcher and make having it sit solid on the floor easier.

The floor of my garage isn't even close to flat and I didn't think about toe space. Just having the legs on the floor might work out better rather than the whole length of the base. Thanks.

[Curt Putnam]

Before you go too far down the twin screw road consider how you are going to handle those 7 or 8' boards you spoke of and also that a Moxon style vise is a more flexible form of twin screw.

[John Glendening]

Good ideas above! You might also look into a Holtzapffel bench. It's much like the Roubo, but the leg intersections with the top are single tenons. Either a leg vise, plus a Moxon mountable to the top gives you lots of flexibility. There's probably no need for two tail or wagon vises. You might want to look at a simple tail vise with a row of dog holes in line with the tail.

Enjoy the build, then enjoy the bench for decades more!

[Mark Rice]

Before you go too far down the twin screw road consider how you are going to handle those 7 or 8' boards you spoke of and also that a Moxon style vise is a more flexible form of twin screw.
It seems a lot of folks are recommending the moxon style vise. I have 3/4 acme rod and the nuts. All I would need is a couple of wheels and somewhere to put it when I am not using it. As a matter of fact I just thought of a place to store it. Thanks.

[Mark Rice]

Good ideas above! You might also look into a Holtzapffel bench. It's much like the Roubo, but the leg intersections with the top are single tenons. Either a leg vise, plus a Moxon mountable to the top gives you lots of flexibility. There's probably no need for two tail or wagon vises. You might want to look at a simple tail vise with a row of dog holes in line with the tail.

Enjoy the build, then enjoy the bench for decades more!
I agree on the statement about the ideas. There have been several great ideas never thought about.

The tale of two tail vises.
I found a great deal on 1 1/8" 5 acme rod 36 inches long. For only 25 more I could buy 6 foot. I got 6 foot of rod for $52.00. The nuts were 6.00 each and I bought extras just in case I want to pursue a quick release idea for the tail vise. I bought extra metal for the vise carriage just to have extra metal for other projects. All totaled the metal cost 14.00. When I was ordering the bearing/flange for the tail vise I found them for 9.00 each so I ordered 2, or so I thought. I actually ordered three. At that point I decided that all I needed was an extra wheel to build a second tail vise and most of the stuff for a leg vise. That was another 15.00. I figured it would help me with large cabinets. I got the stuff for both tail vises and the leg vise for about 160.00. If I don't use it it will not be in the way. I am sort of enjoying the build so far. Once I get all the parts together and I can just concentrate on the build it will be more fun. Thanks :)

[Karl Andersson]

Mark,
One other consideration for both the leg tenon style and the tail vise placement; if you look at the drawing and "see" how much actual continuous long grain you've got supporting the two outboard pieces of the end of the bench top (where the vises are), it isn't much if you use the double tenon. Like maybe a single 1 1/2-2" section supporting a 5x6 block 18 inches long (or whatever the slot length is). That may work in some woods, but Doug Fir is pretty flexible and splitty, so I'd be worried about the vises causing their slot to deflect wider under a load, seasonal changes making that narrow piece warp or twist and un-truing the bench corners, etc.. I have an enclosed wagon-type tail vise on my DF bench and I used end caps to support and hold that slim outboard piece - it's done well for over 5 years now.

You may want to consider smaller, single tenons - looks like you already are- or leg trestles with no tenons. Regardless or long grain support, you may also want to use a metal or wood end cap to keep the vise slot a uniform width through the seasons and under loads since the offset screw makes the load a side-load to begin with.
I built my bench after the first round of home remodeling...now I'm renovating the kitchen for the second time...at least I have a bench
good luck
Karl

[Mark Rice]

Mark,
One other consideration for both the leg tenon style and the tail vise placement; if you look at the drawing and "see" how much actual continuous long grain you've got supporting the two outboard pieces of the end of the bench top (where the vises are), it isn't much if you use the double tenon. Like maybe a single 1 1/2-2" section supporting a 5x6 block 18 inches long (or whatever the slot length is). That may work in some woods, but Doug Fir is pretty flexible and splitty, so I'd be worried about the vises causing their slot to deflect wider under a load, seasonal changes making that narrow piece warp or twist and un-truing the bench corners, etc.. I have an enclosed wagon-type tail vise on my DF bench and I used end caps to support and hold that slim outboard piece - it's done well for over 5 years now.

You may want to consider smaller, single tenons - looks like you already are- or leg trestles with no tenons. Regardless or long grain support, you may also want to use a metal or wood end cap to keep the vise slot a uniform width through the seasons and under loads since the offset screw makes the load a side-load to begin with.
I built my bench after the first round of home remodeling...now I'm renovating the kitchen for the second time...at least I have a bench
good luck
Karl

Karl,
I You are the first one to mention that I didn't have an end cap. Good catch. I was waiting to get the parts back for the tail vise before I added it into the drawing. I wanted the vise in my hand before I started to work on the end so I could get actual measurements. Sometimes what I think is going to happen and what actually happens are two different things. I share your concern about "splitty" doug fir. You are right. It should be a single tenon. I thought about your closed vise and kind of came up with a solution. I can add a metal plate at the under the top that would hold the slot for the vise in place to prevent deflection. There is enough thickness that I think I could get away with another 1/8 of thickness for the plate. I will have to see what it looks like after I get further along.

I told the wife to get everything she wanted in this remodel because I am never going to do it again. I would be willing to replace carpet or maybe the hardwood but the rest is in place till after they carry me out of here in a pine box. I hope it goes smooth for you. Our kitchen is the next phase (next year). I hope it is easier than the last phase.

[Mark Rice]

Progress on the tail vises. I picked the wheel and rods up from the machine shop today. This is a prototype. I need to make the carriage just a bit different, a hardware issue, but the rod, wheel, bearing, rails, thrust washer and nut are complete. I need to build another one for the other side (RH). I have all the parts (except the handles for the wheels) so it is just a matter of getting it done.

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[paul cottingham]

I agree with the folks that recommend that you consider making the assembly table lower. It is much easier on the body for assembly. I get around the height issue by building trestles to set on it to make it the same height as my workbench and my other work table for when that is important.

Im with the narrow workbench camp. I would probably build my next one somewhere between 18"-24" wide. Narrow enough to clamp across a door or any other small assembly that I wanted to keep flat. I would make it as long as I could get straight wood.

as for a tail vice, I have one of the Lee Valley inset tail vices, and I have to admit, for the ease of installation, on my next bench, I might just install two. They work surprisingly well, and the price would not induce a divorce.