Junk, junk, junk

[Bob Glenn]

Years ago I bought a cheap 8 inch Delta miter saw. Some years later, the trigger switch quit working. So I decided to upgrade and bought a Hitachi 10 inch miter saw. Recently, the trigger switch has been acting up. Today, the saw would not stop when the trigger was released. I finally got the thing to turn off by pulling the trigger out a bit. Now the trigger won't turn the saw on! Took it apart and the switch is toast. This saw is rarely used.

I go to the internet site for Hitachi, find the correct switch, guess what? Discontinued! I have found another switch that looks similar and ordered it. I think I can make it work with some fiddling.

I've had the same problem with a router. Switch went bad.

Why can't we get better electrical controls on these tools with spending a fortune?

Thanks for listening, just venting. Bob

[Prashun Patel]

Sometimes it's not the trigger, but the finger ;)

[Tim Bridge]

It's hard to purchase anything that is quality built anymore. It seems that almost everything is now Chinese junk.

[Ben Rivel]

It's hard to purchase anything that is quality built anymore. It seems that almost everything is now Chinese junk.
Definitely does seem that way these days.

[Alan Schwabacher]

It sounds to me that Hitachi made a good call in discontinuing that switch. I hope the one you ordered is better.

[M Toupin]

Why can't we get better electrical controls on these tools with spending a fortune?

Quality costs $$$ and noways everyone wants the cheapest [insert item]

The Companies who built quality and don't adapt (read start building cheap junk) can't sell enough to be viable and disappear leaving the cheaper junk as the only option...

Those of us old enough to remember quality pine for the old days when things where made to last and be repairable. The younger generation who never experienced it think it's normal and readily accept the disposable society we've become. And the downward spiral continues as manufactures continue to try and meet the insatiable desire for cheaper and cheaper products. Unfortunately we have only yourselves to blame.

Mike

[Martin Wasner]

Quality costs $$$ and noways everyone wants the cheapest [insert item]

The Companies who built quality and don't adapt (read start building cheap junk) can't sell enough to be viable and disappear leaving the cheaper junk as the only option...

Those of us old enough to remember quality pine for the old days when things where made to last and be repairable. The younger generation who never experienced it think it's normal and readily accept the disposable society we've become. And the downward spiral continues as manufactures continue to try and meet the insatiable desire for cheaper and cheaper products. Unfortunately we have only yourselves to blame.

Mike

What he said

[Cody Colston]

Those of us old enough to remember quality pine for the old days when things where made to last and be repairable.
Mike

I pine for the old growth Pine from the old days. :D

[Larry Edgerton]

Buy an OMGA.

[Martin Wasner]

Buy an OMGA.

Also what he said

[Dave Zellers]

It's hard to purchase anything that is quality built anymore. It seems that almost everything is now Chinese junk.
It's not hard at all. It's just expensive. The real question is, how does it compare proportionally to 50 years ago. I think most of us would be surprised by the answer. Tools were better made 50 years ago, but they were also much more expensive relative to the average persons income.

[Peter Kelly]

It's not hard at all. It's just expensive. The real question is, how does it compare proportionally to 50 years ago. I think most of us would be surprised by the answer. Tools were better made 50 years ago, but they were also much more expensive relative to the average persons income.Well said.


http://bestmitersawguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Hitachi-C15FB-15-Amp-15-Inch-Miter-Saw.gif

$869.99 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-C15FB-15-Amp-15-Inch-Miter/dp/B0000223KS?ie=UTF8&keywords=hitachi%20miter%20saw&qid=1463617956&ref_=sr_1_13&sr=8-13) and others. Made with pride in Japan. Definitely not junk.

[Ben Rivel]

Well said.


http://bestmitersawguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Hitachi-C15FB-15-Amp-15-Inch-Miter-Saw.gif

$869.99 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-C15FB-15-Amp-15-Inch-Miter/dp/B0000223KS?ie=UTF8&keywords=hitachi%20miter%20saw&qid=1463617956&ref_=sr_1_13&sr=8-13) and others. Made with pride in Japan. Definitely not junk.
15 INCH! :eek:

[Greg R Bradley]

I have one of those and it is an excellent saw that fits certain applications very well but has some big limitations in others. It miters but doesn't bevel.

Hitachi starts having their stuff made in China so they can make more money selling JUNK and their eventual solution to this is to buy the German company Metabo for their higher end line. Makes nonsense to me........

[Dave Zellers]

... when things where made to last and be repairable.
Mike
My dream is that we find our way back to that. You would think the Green crowd would be all over it already. Manufacturing products to be easily repaired should be a central tenet of any sustainability movement. It also provides jobs that extend beyond the actual repairing. A young person who makes a few bucks taking things apart and repairing them, gets to see what trained engineers designed and is thus exposed to that world, and for a few of them, something may click, and they discover they have an aptitude for engineering. It's an exposure to engineering they would never get if we just throw everything away when it stops working.

Modern manufacturing has led us to stamping parts together instead of using screws, but maybe the cost of screws would be something we would be willing to accept to get back to repairable tools and appliances.

[Dave Zellers]

I pine for the old growth Pine from the old days. :D
Ain't dat the trudth! :cool:

Whenever I am demoing an old room, I always look at the end grain of the wood before it gets trashed. I have salvaged quite a bit of obviously virgin pine from doors, etc. Sometimes the growth rings are so close together it's hard to count them. That stuff is pure joy to work with.

[John Sanford]

Quality costs $$$ and noways everyone wants the cheapest [insert item]

The Companies who built quality and don't adapt (read start building cheap junk) can't sell enough to be viable and disappear leaving the cheaper junk as the only option...


Have you run your theory past Rob Lee or Thomas Lie-Nielsen?

[Rick Fisher]

OMGA, Festool, CTD,

[Tim Bridge]

Ok, there is the very high end and junk. Not very much in between like there used to be.

[Bill Conerly]

It seems that almost everything is now Chinese junk.

I own some high quality Chinese products, and I've owned some very junky U.S. made products--like a Plymouth Voyager, before I swore allegiance to Japanese cars.

When I was a kid "made in Japan" was a pejorative, and those who clung to that idea had to put up with American-made pieces of $%^&*!.

The cheap tools at HF (yes, many made in China) work pretty well for the person who uses it a few times a year. That's your casual hobbyist. People who are serious hobbyists or professionals need to pay up.

[M Toupin]

Have you run your theory past Rob Lee or Thomas Lie-Nielsen?

Want to wager a bet on the percentage of sales Rob Lee or Thomas Lie-Nielsen capture? Like anything, there's always a small niche market for those who understand quality and are willing to pay for it but it sure isn't a model a large corporation trying to make a significant profit would endeavor.

Mike

[Steve Eure]

Just as with any major appliance, everything is junk. I talked to a factory repairman who works for a major company and he said that everything is made to tear up after several years in order to facilitate sales, especially if it has electronic control boards, etc.. If you replaced your appliances every 30 or so years, they would go out of business. Same with power tools. So, what recourse do you have.

[glenn bradley]

It's not hard at all. It's just expensive. The real question is, how does it compare proportionally to 50 years ago. I think most of us would be surprised by the answer. Tools were better made 50 years ago, but they were also much more expensive relative to the average persons income.

Quite true. We see old prices and think "wow, look how cheap that was" but, gas was 7 cents a gallon and a house was $12k. As to the state of affairs for products available; in some cases I have been heard to say something like "you can't get a good one no matter how much you are willing to pay".

[Daniel O'Neill]

Just as with any major appliance, everything is junk. I talked to a factory repairman who works for a major company and he said that everything is made to tear up after several years in order to facilitate sales, especially if it has electronic control boards, etc.. If you replaced your appliances every 30 or so years, they would go out of business. Same with power tools. So, what recourse do you have.

Just had to replace our microwave because the door on the old one cracked and was falling to pieces. A new door ~100-150. A new Microwave $170 incl tax delivery. There's no way around the disposable nature of those prices. IMO

[Rod Sheridan]

Quality costs $$$ and noways everyone wants the cheapest [insert item]

The Companies who built quality and don't adapt (read start building cheap junk) can't sell enough to be viable and disappear leaving the cheaper junk as the only option...

Those of us old enough to remember quality pine for the old days when things where made to last and be repairable. The younger generation who never experienced it think it's normal and readily accept the disposable society we've become. And the downward spiral continues as manufactures continue to try and meet the insatiable desire for cheaper and cheaper products. Unfortunately we have only yourselves to blame.

Mike

Actually Mike, there are many companies making quality items, and it's not the younger generation that's the problem, it's us.

How many of our generation buy quality stuff? Do you own a stack of Lee Valley made tools?

Festool, MiniMax, Felder, Martin, Altendorf? They all exist, yet most buy cheap stuff.

My FIL is a retired cabinet maker who was fortunate enough to have a real apprenticeship in England after the war. He's amazed at how inexpensive good tools are today, he would work for a week to buy one handplane to add to his tool chest, today we work for a day to purchase a Lee Valley or Lie Nielson plane.

This was all brought home to me when my mom died in 2010, as I was cleaning out her house I came across the old chrome GE kettle they had received as a wedding present during the war. It had the big bakelite plug on the back, I probably replaced 5 cords on that kettle.

Somebody thought enough of them to buy an expensive gift for them, probably a few days pay. I'm not sure what we would think of someone today who gave a kettle as a wedding present, as you can now buy one for $10.

I'm not sure however that you can actually find a lifetime kettle any longer.

One thing I'm sure of is that my parents generation bought very little, there was only one TV, one kitchen radio, and furniture was high quality and you expected to buy it once for many articles..............Now we "redecorate" every few years.

It's not the younger generation, it was ours that fell for the cheap/replace syndrome. Now our kids are stuck because we enabled the WalMart mentality to take over our lives..........Rod.

[Daniel O'Neill]

My dream is that we find our way back to that. You would think the Green crowd would be all over it already. Manufacturing products to be easily repaired should be a central tenet of any sustainability movement. It also provides jobs that extend beyond the actual repairing. A young person who makes a few bucks taking things apart and repairing them, gets to see what trained engineers designed and is thus exposed to that world, and for a few of them, something may click, and they discover they have an aptitude for engineering. It's an exposure to engineering they would never get if we just throw everything away when it stops working.

Modern manufacturing has led us to stamping parts together instead of using screws, but maybe the cost of screws would be something we would be willing to accept to get back to repairable tools and appliances.

Check this out (http://wunc.org/post/first-us-factory-okd-cuba-aims-plow-path-21st-century#stream/0)(Quote to follow if you don't want to read the whole thing)


To that, they respond that they've updated the engineering, putting new technology in that old frame. The tractor will be easy to assemble and, with an open source manufacturing model, will be easy to fix and maintain.
Clemmons says their "make it live longer" model sets them apart from other equipment companies that use patented, proprietary components.

[Jim Dwight]

I've had to replace the switch on my Hitachi dual bevel 12 inch CMS and one of my PC 690s. I think the variable speed controller is now bad in the other. But in addition to using some cheap parts, current tools are lighter and often better engineered from a usability standpoint. I would rather replace an occasional switch than go back to heavy metal frames.
If you review the problems section of the Festool Owners Group forum, I don't know that you come away with the opinion they are head and shoulders above the Hitachi/Bosch/DeWalt tools I use. They are better from some ergonomic features but not necessarily in terms of components or longevity.

[Bill Orbine]

Sometimes a clear head prevails when you been considering something junk because a switch fails. For example, a weak neutral leg in the wiring circuit can be the cause... usually by poor plug/receptacle connection or Frayed cord wiring (tool or extension cord). A tell-tale sign before switch fails is the motor seems to run hot and maybe emit a burning electrical smell. I'd had my share of junk and sometimes it's not that it is just junk.

[Dave Zellers]

Check this out (http://wunc.org/post/first-us-factory-okd-cuba-aims-plow-path-21st-century#stream/0)(Quote to follow if you don't want to read the whole thing)
Awesome! Thanks for posting that.

[Peter Kelly]

I'm not sure however that you can actually find a lifetime kettle any longer.You most certainly can! https://www.simplex-kettles.com

Granted, they aren't electric though.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Peter, I have a less expensive one that isn't electric.......Those sure are nice kettles...............Rod.

[Robert Engel]

Even high quality machines can end up with a faulty component. I had a DW jigsaw with a sticky switch. Problem was case was rubbing on switch. Filed with an emery board no problems since.

Don't discount the whole saw because the switch went bad. But I would be p***ed too if I had to buy a new saw because I couldn't get a switch. Have you researched that fully on ereplacementparts.com?

[Keith Weber]

I own some high quality Chinese products...

That comment literally made me laugh out loud. I guess high-quality is a subjective term that's relative to what you're used to. I'm sure even that Plymouth Voyager would seem high-quality to a guy that's upgrading from a Ford Pinto or an AMC Pacer.

[Marion Smith]

I contend that for decades now, products are designed, manufactured and sold with only two people in mind. Those two are the CEO, and the shareholder.

[Mike Holbrook]

I solved the cut off saw problem just recently:

337696

I'm in the process of installing a drop table on the back of this saw station. The top is a Festool top, so I can use my Festool T55 or a Carvex on the table. It will have drop down wheels too. The Stanley 150 miter box has all the accuracy I need and provides a little exercise too.

[Martin Wasner]

I contend that for decades now, products are designed, manufactured and sold with only two people in mind. Those two are the CEO, and the shareholder.


The smart shareholders, or board, place a CEO will make them the most money. I can't imagine it working any other way. If they are going to make more money selling junk to the uninformed consumer, you're fooling yourself that they will take any other path.

[roger wiegand]

With modern manufacturing technology it is going to be nearly impossible for a repair to be competitive with a "pitch and replace" model from a dollar point of view. Repair requires a lot of infrastructure, parts warehouses, distribution networks, a skilled person to diagnose the problem, then a one-by-one manual, disassemble, replace, reassemble process. It probably takes even a skilled, experienced person a half hour to replace a switch in a power tool. The assembly of a new tool takes a small fraction of that, done by unskilled labor or a robot. I'm not at all surprised that repair is generally uneconomic.

The tradeoff is that we get generally very good, very inexpensive tools that need to be replaced rather than repaired. The vast majority of us have voted with our feet on this issue, buying the products from Bosch, Milwaukee, DeWalt, Makita, Festool and others that offer a pretty sweet spot of price and performance, even when price is considered from a total cost of ownership perspective that factors in un-repairability.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Its funny how often we fail to see the irony in our own lives... We complain about poor schools - and high property taxes. About excessive corporate profits - and failing companies. About cheap tools - and expensive tools. And sometimes I do both in the same breath.

We celebrate success - - just not too MUCH success!

[Bob Glenn]

I haven't taken the switch apart yet, I'll wait for the new one to arrive. However, since at first it wouldn't shut off until I pried the trigger out, I think the contacts corroded or were worn, thereby increasing the electrical resistance. Probably welded the contacts together when they got hot enough. It happens occasionally with automotive relays. Ever heard a horn that would not shut off?

[Bob Glenn]

Here's an update. Got the switch that wasn't designated for the saw, but one that looked like it would fit. Guess what? Same part. Went right in, same wires plugged in, works like a charm. Now I'm wondering, does Hitachi know what they're doing or is this a little plan to sell more saws?

As an aside, I checked to see if I could order a switch replacement for the Delta miter saw that has a bad switch also. Again, the switch has been discontinued. I guess I'll go back to my hand tools.

[Garth Almgren]

Which Hitachi saw do you have, and what was your source and part number for the replacement switch?

My C10FCE2 is still going strong, but I don't use it every day either...

[Mark Blatter]

Just had to replace our microwave because the door on the old one cracked and was falling to pieces. A new door ~100-150. A new Microwave $170 incl tax delivery. There's no way around the disposable nature of those prices. IMO

My first microwave was a graduation gift in 1984. It cost about $1200 and I was using it until 2007 when we finally sold it at a garage sale. It was just so big it took up serious counter space, but it still worked great. Not a thing didn't work.

Yes, many tools today are junk. Some are still good quality, but as others have pointed out, higher priced. It transfers to most other areas of life. Flying today is so much worse than when I took my first flight in 1975. No meals, seats 30% smaller, crammed aircraft, etc. Yet the price is, relatively speaking, much cheaper.

[Dave Zellers]

[QUOTE=Bob Glenn;2568048] Now I'm wondering, does Hitachi know what they're doing or is this a little plan to sell more saws?

Yes and Yes.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have four Hitachi commercial grade saws, a 15', 10" slide and two 8 1/4" slides. None has ever needed so much as a brush and the one 8 1/4" was the first slide to come out, 25 years old at least and used by 100 guys, abused every day.

Quit buying Box store junk.

[Robert Parent]

In my view quality has and will always cost dollars (BTW, don't forget to adjust your dollars for inflation when comparing past to present)...... I much prefer many of the new tools compared to those of years past. The design and safety features are many times better for a majority of tools. Today there are tools available which can do things one could only dream of in the past. For hand power tools, variable speed, soft start, electronic braking, etc are just a couple of the features that many expect today that were not generally available in the past at any price.

Robert

[Bob Glenn]

Which Hitachi saw do you have, and what was your source and part number for the replacement switch?

My C10FCE2 is still going strong, but I don't use it every day either...

The saw is also a C10FCE2. Got the switch from Ereplacementparts.com . Its a 3P faston type part number 326-699 for $13.75.

[Myk Rian]

Short the trigger switch and use a foot switch.

[Glenn de Souza]

I had a Hitachi C10FS which was the 10" SCMS they offered for a long time. This was back when SCMS were a newish class of tool and the Hitachi was the more popular among trim carpenters. I think I paid around $750 for it from Tool Crib. Well after about 12 years, the plastic started degrading. I mean shattering and crumbling apart. I tried to epoxy it back together like Humpty Dumpty, but it continued to just crumble. Same thing happened to the high end Hitachi shop vac I had at the same time. One day the whole upper plastic housing totally collapsed under vacuum pressure right into the stainless steel canister below it. It was as though the vacuum vacuumed itself. I always wondered if it was a chemical deficiency in their plastic that was aggravated by the dry climate here in Arizona.

So back to the SCMS. I ended up replacing Humpty Dumpty with a DeWalt for a little more than half the price I paid for that Hitachi in 1998 and in the bargain I gained the uber accurate XPS LED sight system and a taller fence that now allows me to cut the biggest crown at the spring angle the way I like to do it. This new saw is light years ahead of that old Hitachi in terms of accuracy, features, design, cut repeatability.

So I'm reading this discussion about the good old days when tools were built to last and be easily repaired, but there's something to be said about the advancement in design and technology you get when you trade up to newer versions of some tools.

A friend of mine is a die hard "vintage rules" zealot. He recently bought a 1950's era jigsaw for $12 from a thrift store just because it was a 1950's era jigsaw. It works in a crude manner of speaking but for anyone who's got a job to do it's a joke compared to a modern day jigsaw's blade guide system, variable speed, power displacement, soft start. Take a look at the 1970's era routers and compare them to the routers you get today. They're hardy tanks but they suck.

For me, some of the finer hand tools I expect to last a lifetime, but for certain power tools, I'll trade lifetime longevity for improved technology and design in many cases.

Plus, a new and improved tool can be a real treat.

[Glenn de Souza]

I haven't taken the switch apart yet, I'll wait for the new one to arrive. However, since at first it wouldn't shut off until I pried the trigger out, I think the contacts corroded or were worn, thereby increasing the electrical resistance. Probably welded the contacts together when they got hot enough. It happens occasionally with automotive relays. Ever heard a horn that would not shut off?

The switch is set up to start the motor when you pull the trigger and to short it out when you let go. This creates an opposite magnetic field and brings the motor to a quick stop. But it also causes a high current to flow through those contacts which causes arcing. After a while the arcing burns out the contacts and they no longer function properly. They will either fail to start the motor at all (which sounds like your case) or they will fail to short out the motor when you let go of the trigger and it will free spin down with no braking effect.

[lowell holmes]

Short the trigger switch and use a foot switch.

I find a foot switch to be dangerous. Maybe I'm just clumsy, but sometimes I step on the switch when I don't want to. Use extreme caution when using one.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I find a foot switch to be dangerous. +1 OSHA likes industrial equipment that requires your hands (both if possible) to be safely located when you hit the 'go' switch. And its not really such a evil malovolent thing IMHO. A foot switch removes much of this safety factor on a SCMS.

Unless of course, the foot-switch incorporates flesh sensin..... dooh! :eek: NO! ...I DID NOT SAY THAT!! (Apologies to the OP, the SawStop-Sleigh-Ride has begun.):o

[Martin Wasner]

My OMGA switch doesn't return to off once released. I really, really like that feature. I don't like that it has no guard. It requires attentive respect to not get murdered by that saw since it's just ON.

[John Piwaron]

Even high quality machines can end up with a faulty component. I had a DW jigsaw with a sticky switch. Problem was case was rubbing on switch. Filed with an emery board no problems since.

Don't discount the whole saw because the switch went bad. But I would be p***ed too if I had to buy a new saw because I couldn't get a switch. Have you researched that fully on ereplacementparts.com?

I've got a new looking Milwaukee 14.4 volt drill. I'll be unhappy if I have to toss it just because the battery failed. Thanks to Batteries Plus, I was able to get a new pack. But if they stop selling them, I may have to toss the drill. That won't make me happy. Nothing wrong with the new drills, it just seems that 18 or 24 volts is kind of gilding the lily when all I want to do is drill a few holes.

[John Piwaron]

The smart shareholders, or board, place a CEO will make them the most money. I can't imagine it working any other way. If they are going to make more money selling junk to the uninformed consumer, you're fooling yourself that they will take any other path.

I think you're right. I also think that company is walking down the path to going out of business. It just won't be tomorrow. Just eventually. Sooner or later any company will become a "Buffalo Tools" - someone known only for making crap. Next stop is "Goingoutofbusinessville"

[John Piwaron]

I had a Hitachi C10FS which was the 10" SCMS they offered for a long time. Well after about 12 years, the plastic started degrading. I mean shattering and crumbling apart. I tried to epoxy it back together like Humpty Dumpty, but it continued to just crumble. Same thing happened to the high end Hitachi shop vac I had at the same time. One day the whole upper plastic housing totally collapsed under vacuum pressure right into the stainless steel canister below it. It was as though the vacuum vacuumed itself. I always wondered if it was a chemical deficiency in their plastic that was aggravated by the dry climate here in Arizona.

Nope. A lot of plastic simply doesn't age well. There's no magic pixie dust added for long life. That's just a property inherent to whatever polymer the maker chose to use.

Plastic aging is a known problem to the approval agencies like UL. In the beginning no one can no for sure how long the plastic will last, but UL tries to simulate aging with heating the parts in an oven at some temperature for a particular period of time. If the product still works safely after that test it gets approved.

Again, plastic falling apart after awhile is just a property of that plastic. Some last longer than others. Environmental conditions in which the item is used and stored will have a lot of influence. Most of my stuff is in my house out of the harmful rays of the sun or high temperatures. My stuff tends to last just about forever.

[william watts]

It's hard to purchase anything that is quality built anymore. It seems that almost everything is now Chinese junk.
It's not Chinese junk as much as US company's building junk in China.