Need for permits

[Charlie Velasquez]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/05/17/13-year-old-iowa-girl-dies-when-hammocks-support-pillar-collapses/84497482/


DES MOINES, Ia.— A 13-year-old girl died Saturday when a brick pillar collapsed onto the hammock she and her sister were sharing outside their Des Moines home, according to a police report.

Peri Sagun, 13, had set up the hammock with her 16-year-old sister outside their house, tying one end to a tree and the other end to a 5-foot-tall brick light post, the report states.

Peri jumped in the hammock while her sister was sitting on it, and the brick light post collapsed on top of her head.
When my neighbor said he only needed to get a permit if the city finds out about his work, I cringed.

A tragic case of someone not getting the work inspected. No idea if it was the home owner, previous owner or a handyman.


Des Moines code requires a permit for almost anything, in this case any structure higher than 30” above grade.

[Pat Barry]

So your neighbor thinks they needed a permit for a hammock?

[Greg R Bradley]

It's hard to fix stupid. The parents should have educated the kids to not tie a hammock to a brick light post. A permit for a 5 foot tall light post seems stupid to me. if you think you can legislate out the possibility of stupid people doing stupid things, well you must work the government........

[Tom M King]

I'm not sure that an inspector would have not allowed it to pass every time.

[Mike Jungers]

It's a tragedy for sure. Unfortunately there's not much an inspection could have done, short of the inspector trying to pull the post over, if I understand the OP correctly.

[Jason Roehl]

Sounds like a freak accident to me. Tragic, but a greater tragedy would be trying to use the heavy hand of government to prevent it from ever occurring again.

[Dan Friedrichs]

What odd replies from some of you.

I think I'm a reasonably smart and prudent guy - and I'm also a licensed engineer - I understand brick and mortar is best in compressive applications, etc - but I wouldn't have thought twice about ~150lbs of load pulling it sideways (assuming this lamp post is as "beefy" as I'm imagining it in my head).

I think most reasonable people would not expect a post to fall over in those situations. I'm astounded anyone thinks the parents were at fault for not knowing that.

FWIW, last time I got a permit, it was fast, efficient, and inexpensive. The inspector came out at my convenience, was prompt, professional, and provided me with some suggested improvements. Since they were relatively benign issues, he trusted me to make a few little changes and didn't require it to be re-inspected.

Perhaps those of you railing against "big government" really should be upset with your "bad government".

[Matt Day]

Sounds like a freak accident to me. Tragic, but a greater tragedy would be trying to use the heavy hand of government to prevent it from ever occurring again.

+1
.........

[Mel Fulks]

When I applied for a permit to build a five foot retaining wall I was told I didn't need one for landscape projects! I knew they were nutty and insisted on one. BTW Our inspection and permit office is housed in a tall building covered with stone slabs that were attached with a new glue that did not work. Started falling off right away and for years were held up by retro fitted bungee cords.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Just some quick and dirty calculations based on some (hopefully) reasonable assumptions:

If the hammock spanned 12ft with a 3ft 'sag' and the girls' combined weight was 200#, then the tension at the end of the hammock was ~223# with ~200# of that in the horizontal plane. For a 5ft post, that's ~1000ft-lbs of torque at the base of the post.

Increase the span to 20ft with a 3ft 'sag' and the girls' combined weight was 200#, then the tension at the end of the hammock was ~471# with ~461# of that in the horizontal plane. For a 5ft post, that's ~2303ft-lbs of torque at the base of the post.

I am not an authority on concrete construction, but anyone trying this better have a deep footing and rebar to unify the brick and footing. Cable loads like this get BIG quick.

Want to self-rescue a car in the mud? Tie a rope taut between the car and a tree 150' away. Then have a helper pull sideways on the rope.

[Greg R Bradley]

One of my businesses does mostly concrete construction but this is brick and mortar!

I don't have to do engineering calcs to know it wouldn't work. I've knocked down a 35 year old 6' tall cement block wall without using tools. I could have brought home a Demo Hammer to do it but it is just too easy to bother.

[Steve Peterson]

Sounds like a freak accident to me. Tragic, but a greater tragedy would be trying to use the heavy hand of government to prevent it from ever occurring again.

Agree completely. A permit for a lamp post would ensure that it is built strongly enough to hold itself up, which is typically only downward loading. Bricks do this very easily. What the girls did was change it to side loading. I would not want every single item on my property to be engineered to survive every possible permutation of alternate usage models.

I already have a useless 400 page owners manual for my car with almost half of the pages telling me not to close the door on my hand. That is what the heavy hand of government regulation does for us.

Steve

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

it's a freak accident.

and the engineers that have responded to this accident with any sort of engineering analysis are doing nothing but proving the "stereotype" that engineers are know-it-all jerks.

and yes, I'm a PE as well.

[Pat Barry]

Just some quick and dirty calculations based on some (hopefully) reasonable assumptions:

If the hammock spanned 12ft with a 3ft 'sag' and the girls' combined weight was 200#, then the tension at the end of the hammock was ~223# with ~200# of that in the horizontal plane. For a 5ft post, that's ~1000ft-lbs of torque at the base of the post.

Increase the span to 20ft with a 3ft 'sag' and the girls' combined weight was 200#, then the tension at the end of the hammock was ~471# with ~461# of that in the horizontal plane. For a 5ft post, that's ~2303ft-lbs of torque at the base of the post.

I am not an authority on concrete construction, but anyone trying this better have a deep footing and rebar to unify the brick and footing. Cable loads like this get BIG quick.

Want to self-rescue a car in the mud? Tie a rope taut between the car and a tree 150' away. Then have a helper pull sideways on the rope.
I don't follow the math here Malcolm. Not seeing how the force vectors are adding up as you suggest. What are you figuring is the horizontal load force without the girls?

Just another jerky know it all engineer asking questions - LOL

[Dan Friedrichs]

and the engineers that have responded to this accident with any sort of engineering analysis are doing nothing but proving the "stereotype" that engineers are know-it-all jerks.


I'm not qualified to do the calculations, but my point was that my intuition would be that a brick lamp post (which I'm imagining to be at least a few bricks wide - say 1 square foot, total) would not collapse under those conditions. I was expressing surprise that anyone would expect a lay person to "know better".

[Kev Williams]

I went into a Taco Bell several years ago, about 5' behind the counter was a free-standing brick wall, about 12' long and waist high. I was quite surprised to find out exactly how 'free' standing it actually was when I backed up to lean against it. I just about tipped it over! Took all I had to catch it before it went over. An employee said 'yeah, it's been like that'.

If a kid would've been on the other side and I hadn't caught it....

Pretty sure IT passed an inspection at one time, which brings me to my point: Inspections are only as good as the inspector.

[Malcolm McLeod]

What are you figuring is the horizontal load force without the girls? =zero

Malcolm "The Jerk" McLeod
(My honorary name in Karankawa is "Fghytres Etic" loose translation :: He-Who-Knows-It-All):eek:

[Malcolm McLeod]

I don't follow the math here Malcolm. Not seeing how the force vectors are adding up as you suggest. What are you figuring is the horizontal load force without the girls?

Just another jerky know it all engineer asking questions - LOL

PM sent (to preserve the sensitive feelings of others)

[Michael Weber]

First thing I wondered about was the math involved and appreciate it being posted. As I recall one of the girls jumped into the hammock. Assume that would put an even greater load on the post. Just a tragic accident. The parents might not even have been aware of what was happening. Even so, branding them stupid is unkind. Everyone is ignorant (not stupid) just in different areas.

[Brian W Smith]

Plasticity and how it relates,and how it applies to masonry/concrete comes into question here.So,engineering and inspections are all fine and good,yet..."stuff",happens.

[Ken Combs]

Inspections and permits have nothing to do with that failure. If your pickup sinks when you drive it into the lake, it's not a design problem, it's a usage problem.

a light post is not designed to bear side loading beyond minimal wind load. It held up the light just fine, but not a hammock. . No inspector would test for that. There is nothing in the code regulating usage, nor posts for that matter, if not part of a structure.

Terrible accident and her parents need our sympathy, not accusations.

[Dan Friedrichs]

. No inspector would test for that. There is nothing in the code regulating usage, nor posts for that matter, if not part of a structure.


I don't expect it to be "tested", but presumably there are design standards for similar structures that may be applicable. I see brick (or brick-clad?) posts holding up things like decks...I assume an inspector confirmed that they were appropriate sizes and built sturdily. I assume brick chimneys must withstand some lateral loads, so there must be standards regarding their thickness, size, etc - and then presumably there are inspections to confirm that they were built to the standards.

[Chris Padilla]

I see A LOT of speculation from the posters here. No where is there a lick of information about how this 'post' was built nor about the general setup of the whole tragic affair. One can imagine all they like but unless there is a picture of it somewhere, we don't know anything about anything.

Having a daughter of similar age, I'd be going out of my mind.

And keep the politics out of the discussion lest it get shut down.

[Jim Koepke]

I already have a useless 400 page owners manual for my car with almost half of the pages telling me not to close the door on my hand. That is what the heavy hand of government regulation does for us.

Steve

If there is an automobile's owner's manual with close to 200 of its 400 pages telling owners "not to close the door on your hand." That is not the heavy hand of government regulation, it is the idiot mind of the manual writer.

I hear complaints all the time about regulations ruining the country. No, it is the unethical business leaders who try to figure away to cut a few pennies of the cost of manufacturing a product. Their efforts for higher profits have them justifying the manufacture of dangerous products or using methods that are dangerous to their employees or those who live near by. Then some government body passes a regulation against the action. The offender then tries again to get around ethics which brings on another regulation.

What do you think came first, dumping toxic waste into rivers or the regulations against it?

Some feel anarchy is a better system than government. Don't bet on it. Not too many folks moving to the parts of the world where anarchy is a way of life.

jtk

[Greg R Bradley]

Over Regulation and Under Regulation can both be a problem. Reason seems to be lost in the extremes.

[Brian Elfert]

FWIW, last time I got a permit, it was fast, efficient, and inexpensive. The inspector came out at my convenience, was prompt, professional, and provided me with some suggested improvements. Since they were relatively benign issues, he trusted me to make a few little changes and didn't require it to be re-inspected.

Perhaps those of you railing against "big government" really should be upset with your "bad government".

A lot of people won't take out permits because they believe, often correctly, that any improvements covered by a permit will result in increased property taxes.

I am doing an electrical project and the permit cost is out of sight. I am installing a standby generator and moving about 12 circuits to a new sub panel. There is a $6 fee for each circuit moved! From previous experience the inspector will spend about five seconds at most looking at each circuit. The inspector is making over a dollar a second for those extra circuits! The permit will cost me $108 for a single trip by the inspector.

[John Sanford]

It is a tragedy and freak accident, and I feel sympathy for the parents and sister.

HOWEVER, those of you who are faulting the builder/installer for not getting a permit are WRONG.

From the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/18/i-cant-believe-this-happened-girl-13-dies-in-freak-hammock-accident/?tid=sm_fb).

"Although solid brick, the two-foot-wide square light post was only placed several inches in the ground and had no reinforcement, the Des Moines Register reported. A city official told the newspaper that there are no laws regulating decorative structures such as the light post, nor are permits required for their construction."

Should permits be required? That's a political question, that may or may not have sufficient relevance to SMC's core mission to justify discussing.

[Dave Zellers]

I hear complaints all the time about regulations ruining the country. No, it is the unethical business leaders who try to figure away to cut a few pennies of the cost of manufacturing a product.
jtk
That's good as far as it goes. The other thing the unethical business leaders do is lobby Congress to pass regulations that ostensibly will 'protect' people but actually have the effect of creating a barrier to entry for new small businesses (competitors) to enter the field. This is one way innovation is stifled and quasi monopolies persist. For both parties it's a win. The politician crows about 'protecting the folks' and the established business reaps the rewards.

But the people are denied a lower price or a better product.

[Greg R Bradley]

A lot of people won't take out permits because they believe, often correctly, that any improvements covered by a permit will result in increased property taxes.

I am doing an electrical project and the permit cost is out of sight. I am installing a standby generator and moving about 12 circuits to a new sub panel. There is a $6 fee for each circuit moved! From previous experience the inspector will spend about five seconds at most looking at each circuit. The inspector is making over a dollar a second for those extra circuits! The permit will cost me $108 for a single trip by the inspector.
Basically FREE by California standards with all the nonsense. A recent 2 acre commercial property had a fee for $183K for Sagebrush Remediation, which means that in order to build on the bare dirt lot we had to pay a fee to plant that amount of Sagebrush somewhere else. Sagebrush plants itself naturally so how much can be planted for $183K?
We tried to build a 2200 sq.ft. commercial building, that would be about $250K in actual construction cost. With fees and City required additions, it was basically going to be $1M since it was on a large lot. Since they won't continue to give us a temp operating permit for the modular building that we have used for 30 years, that means we had to let 39 people go last week.
Reasonable permits sound great but those aren't reasonable.

[Charlie Velasquez]

...... A city official told the newspaper that there are no laws regulating decorative structures such as the light post, nor are permits required for their construction."......
I read the follow-up article in the Des Moines Register where the city development director says there are no regulations or required permits for the installation of the exterior light and accompanying column (Apparently where the Washington paper got its quote)
I tend to think he may be trying to cover his rear.


Des Moines, in theory, requires a permit for almost anything.
Add an outlet to an existing circuit.... permit
Replace the drain pipe to your kitchen sink....permit
Add a berm to your yard's landscape....permit
Below is from the Des Moines web site, my bold:



WHEN ARE BUILDING PERMITS REQUIRED?
A Building Permit is required when any building or structure is erected, constructed, enlarged, altered, repaired, improved, converted or demolished. Common exceptions that allow limited work without permit are listed below. This work must still conform to code.
1. One story detached residential accessory buildings used as tool sheds, playhouses or similar uses, provided the area of the structure is 120 square feet or less.
2. Chain link fences 4 feet in height or less.
3. Movable cases, counters and partitions not over 5 feet in height.

4. Retaining walls with earth surcharge not over 4 feet high, measured from top of wall to bottom of footing.

5. Sidewalks, driveways, and platforms on private property less than 30 inches above grade. .....(This is as close as I could come to an exemption, but it was 60" tall per police report)

6. Painting, papering, wallboard repair and similar finish work.

7. Residential siding and shingle replacement, and other minor maintenance as determined by the Building Official.


WHEN ARE ELECTRICAL, MECHANICAL AND PLUMBING PERMITS REQUIRED?
Electrical, Mechanical and Plumbing Permits are required for most work involving electrical, heating, air conditioning and plumbing systems. Limited exemptions to this requirement allow some work without a permit. Work exempt from a permit must still conform to applicable codes.
1. Plumbing Permits: The direct replacement of a fixture (sink, water closet, etc.) and leak repair not involving piping replacement is allowed without a Plumbing Permit. A Plumbing Permit is required for repairs, modifications or new installation of supply, drain, waste or vent lines; installation of new fixtures, or replacement of water heaters.
2. Electrical Permits: Replacement of a fixture when no other work is necessary and installation of low voltage equipment (less than 50 volts) is allowed without permit. (Again does not meet guideline for exemption, so this light should have been inspected)
3. Mechanical Permit: A permit is not required where repair or maintenance costs of heating or cooling equipment are less than $100.
WHAT CODES ARE ADOPTED BY DES MOINES?
International Building Code
International Residential Code
International Existing Buildings Code
National Electric Code
International Fire Code
International Mechanical Code
Uniform Plumbing Code
International Fuel Gas Code
The Municipal Code of Des Moines
ANSI A117.1 for Accessibility
I have no idea what the International Code would have said, but hopefully an inspector, at least the electrical inspector if not a building inspector, would have said stacking a 2 square foot column of bricks 5' high on plain soil was a bad idea.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

So you can build a 10x12 shed without a permit, but you MUST have one to erect a light post?????

[Charlie Velasquez]

So you can build a 10x12 shed without a permit, but you MUST have one to erect a light post?????Yes, it is electrical.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

But the electrical wasn't the issue.

[Brian Elfert]

Electrical inspectors inspect electrical. They don't look at building code issues. Many electrical inspectors locally work for themselves and not for government. Their goal is to inspect fairly quickly so they get onto the next inspection. They have to do quite a few inspections per day to make a decent living.

My previous house was built with a huge bonus space over the garage that was framed for two additional bedrooms and a bathroom during construction. I finished the space some years later and did the wiring myself. I had the rough-in inspection done and the inspector was literally in the space for less than 30 seconds. He said it looked like I knew what I was doing and signed off. He spent more time walking to/from his car than actually looking at the electrical.

[Dan Friedrichs]

My previous house was built with a huge bonus space over the garage that was framed for two additional bedrooms and a bathroom during construction. I finished the space some years later and did the wiring myself. I had the rough-in inspection done and the inspector was literally in the space for less than 30 seconds. He said it looked like I knew what I was doing and signed off. He spent more time walking to/from his car than actually looking at the electrical.

So do you think the inspection was without value? For something like bedrooms where the electrical is only lights and outlets, it probably only takes 30 seconds to confirm that it's done correctly. For every inspection like yours, I bet that inspector has to deal with one that takes 30 minutes to explain things like:
-no, you can't run an oven on 14awg
-no, you can't reuse that old piece of aluminum wiring
-no, you can't run THHN outside of conduit
-no, you can't splice some Romex together with electrical tape

etc.

He may have only been there 30 seconds, but if you did the work correctly, I bet he was able to mentally run through a HUGE list of potential problems and see that they didn't apply to your situation in that short time.

[Brian Elfert]

So do you think the inspection was without value? For something like bedrooms where the electrical is only lights and outlets, it probably only takes 30 seconds to confirm that it's done correctly. For every inspection like yours, I bet that inspector has to deal with one that takes 30 minutes to explain things like:


I was just making the point that electrical inspectors do their work quickly. They aren't building inspectors unless something is glaringly obvious.

[Dave Zellers]

Many electrical inspectors locally work for themselves and not for government.
I'm trying to make sense of this. If the town is paying them to be an inspector, then during their inspections, they are working for the town. They are doing these inspections in the name of the town that hired them and if there is a problem, it is the town that will have ultimately have to answer for a lax inspection.

[Ryan Mooney]

I'm trying to make sense of this. If the town is paying them to be an inspector, then during their inspections, they are working for the town. They are doing these inspections in the name of the town that hired them and if there is a problem, it is the town that will have ultimately have to answer for a lax inspection.

Not generally true (I mean you can certainly sue and in some rare cases win but your odds are low), the inspecting authority is not liable for failure to identify safety or even compliance issues if they are not glaringly obvious (and even then the liability is very limited).

http://scholarship.law.campbell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=clr
http://www.rutan.com/pubs/xpqPublicationDetail.aspx?xpST=PubDetail&pub=1541
http://www.coler.com/pdf/MunicipalBuildingCodeInspectors.pdf
https://www.mikameyers.com/news/article/building-inspector-not-liable-for-improperly-constructed-residence

A search for "municipal inspection liability" will take you much further down this rabbit hole than you'd ever want to go.

[Dave Zellers]

Then municipal inspection is rather worthless.

Maybe it was diligent, maybe it wasn't.

Yay government!

[Art Mann]

I don't see how inspection in this case would have accomplished anything at all. It is not possible to prevent people from doing stupid things or allowing their children to do so. If the lamp post were engineered to withstand heavy side loads, then someone would inevitably run their car into the lamp post and get hurt. There would then be people would be complaining that the lamp post was not engineered to break away during side loading and we would see the same silly arguments about lack of inspections.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm trying to make sense of this. If the town is paying them to be an inspector, then during their inspections, they are working for the town. They are doing these inspections in the name of the town that hired them and if there is a problem, it is the town that will have ultimately have to answer for a lax inspection.

They are inspecting on behalf of the city. The city still issues the permits. My point is that they are paid by the inspection, not by the hour. They have a monetary incentive to do as many inspections as possible in a day to maximize their revenue. Cities do this because they don't have enough work to have a full time electrical inspector. Independent electrical inspectors usually inspect for several cities.