Recommendation for new dovetail saw?

[Pat Barry]

I want to get a new dovetail saw to replace my existing backsaw for dovetail cutting. The current saw is a standard backsaw (Pennsylvania Saw Corporation #78, 12ppi, 12" long, 3" deep). I also have another even larger backsaw and a Zona universal razor saw. I'd like something easier to control and more accurate. Here are the candidates I'm considering (actually would probably buy the first one listed barring some convincing reasons why i shouldn't). The LN's are at the top of my price range.

Have I overlooked anything else that I should consider? Which would you recommend based on your use and why? Which one(s) should be avoided? At this point I'm open to western and eastern styles.


Lie Nielsen Dovetail Saw (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/dovetail-saws/dovetail-saws-dovetail-saw?node=4145) $125
Lie Nielsen Tapered Dovetail Saw (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/dovetail-saws/tapered-saws-tapered-dovetail-saw-?node=4145) $125
Veritas Standard Dovetail Saw (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42884&p=64007) $69
Rockler Ikedame Small Dovetail Saw (http://www.rockler.com/ikedame-small-dovetail-saw) $27
Rockler Dozuki Dovetail Saw (http://www.rockler.com/dozuki-dovetail-sa) $48

Any others?

Thanks for your thoughts and advice

[Jim Koepke]

If you are willing to make your own handle you could purchase a kit from Ron Bontz.

http://www.bontzsawworks.net/diy-parts-kits/

I like mine.

jtk

[Paul Sidener]

I have the Lie Nielsen tapered dovetail saw. I bought it after using a friends Veritas dovetail saw, on a couple projects. I tried the L-N saw at a hand tool event. I liked the weight of the L-N saw better. They are both good saws, the weight and balance are just different. The Veritas is lighter. I would suggest trying a couple different saws before deciding, if you can. It is a a personal preference thing.

[Mike Henderson]

I've used the LN and the LV dovetail saws. They both work well - about the same. Your choice should be based on how the saw feels in your hand. I like the LN but that's just me.

Mike

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I have the Veritas and like it. I avoided it for a long time because I thought it looked cheap, but handling one changed that perception.

[Shawn Pixley]

I have two dovetail saws:

Glen-Drake japanese style & Bad Axe stilletto

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a couple dozukis;

Nakaya Eaks crosscut 210mm
Bessho Jiro crosscut 240mm for hardwood
Mitsukawa rip cut 240mm for hardwood.

I may add another Nakaya Eaks 210 for rip cut they're cheap and well recieved.

Ive had LN its good but for fine work (3/8" and under) I prefer a thinner kerf.

[David Bassett]

... current saw is a standard backsaw (Pennsylvania Saw Corporation #78, 12ppi, 12" long, 3" deep)....

I'm not one of our local saw gurus and I think the Veritas is a wonderful for a beginner starting out (relatively inexpensive, mild setup, and high quality, so no fettling to get going), but I've got to wonder if having your current saw sharpened and tuned up by a pro wouldn't be the best bang for your buck?

(OTOH- you said "want", so maybe never mind...?)

[Pat Barry]

I have a couple dozukis;

Nakaya Eaks crosscut 210mm
Bessho Jiro crosscut 240mm for hardwood
Mitsukawa rip cut 240mm for hardwood.

I may add another Nakaya Eaks 210 for rip cut they're cheap and well recieved.

Ive had LN its good but for fine work (3/8" and under) I prefer a thinner kerf.Can you link me a website that sells saw like the ones you mentioned Brian?

[Pat Barry]

I'm not one of our local saw gurus and I think the Veritas is a wonderful for a beginner starting out (relatively inexpensive, mild setup, and high quality, so no fettling to get going), but I've got to wonder if having your current saw sharpened and tuned up by a pro wouldn't be the best bang for your buck?

(OTOH- you said "want", so maybe never mind...?)
Yes, I'm really looking to get something mew just for dovetail cutting.

[ken hatch]

I have two dovetail saws:

Glen-Drake japanese style & Bad Axe stilletto

One of the best.

If you do not mind toting the note, the Bad Axe Stiletto is a wonderful all around DT saw. Different feel and slightly different uses for smaller DT's the Gramercy DT is a great saw and not too expensive. Of the saws you listed, I have not used all of them but have used saws from most of the makers and the Stilletto is in a different class.

ken

[brian zawatsky]

I'm not one of our local saw gurus and I think the Veritas is a wonderful for a beginner starting out (relatively inexpensive, mild setup, and high quality, so no fettling to get going), but I've got to wonder if having your current saw sharpened and tuned up by a pro wouldn't be the best bang for your buck? (OTOH- you said "want", so maybe never mind...?)

That Penna Saw Corp 78 is much better suited for tenon work than dovetails. The gauge of the saw plate is a bit too thick for very fine work.

I have the LN dovetail saw and I love it. I use it as often as possible, as it really is a joy to use. Feels like an extension of your wrist.

[Mike Cherry]

I have the LN dovetail tapered. It is the only backsaw I have left that hasn't been replaced by Bad Axe saws....yet. It's a great little saw honestly.

[Andrew Hughes]

I would like to recommend Mike Wenzloffs Dt saw.If you can wait or find one used.Thats what I use for my best wrk.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have the LV. Works well. Great value. I've tried the LN too. If you want to spend a bit more, it's quite nice.

The Bontz kit is quite tempting. Tools for Working Wood also sells a nice kit for $120.

Fred

[george wilson]

The best dovetail saw is the WILSON. But,they are very hard to come by!:)

Actually,any dovetail saw with a blade made from .015" AMERICAN 1095 spring steel(which is very hard to come by,I have a smallish supply-don't trust the Indian steel. It varies in hardness and possibly in carbon content,would be just fine. It's a matter of handle choice. And,I prefer MUCH,the brass backs that are FOLDED. Not just a little slit,glued in.

Ignore the BAD sentence composition here!

[Gene Davis]

Gyokucho 372, $48 delivered, Amazon Prime.

[Randy Karst]

The LN is my 'go to general' Dove Tail saw and have a .015 plate Dovetail saw for finer work.

[Tony Wilkins]

Love my Bad Axe. Not only does it meet the criteria for a saw that George mentions but Mark's sharpening is worth more than the price of admission to me.

[James Waldron]

I'd like to be with George, but 0.015 American 1095 is so hard to come by that I haven't been able to find any. Most 1095 these days is hard to source by country of origin, making it hard to do your own thing with much confidence. And it's not that easy to find 0.015 in small amounts, too.

I've made a couple of things with the 0.020" 1095 from tgiag http://tgiag.com/index.html and found their plates quite good steel. I note that their saw plate page indicates that they offer 0.015 1095; I haven't yet taken a shot at that, but I'm coming due for a new dovetail saw, so I'll give that a look in the near future. And their folded backs are really nice, in brass or in steel. I've used the brass and find it very effective.

It's a small business, but very responsive. If you can make your own handle (it's not that hard), you should give it a long look.

[Derek Cohen]

To muddy the waters, I recommend owning two dovetail saws, not one. The first will have a plate with around 15 ppi and be suited to sawing thicker boards (1/2" and up). The second with have around 20 ppi with relaxed rake, and be suited to sawing thinner boards (1/2" and less).

The first category could include the LN (15 ppi), while the second would be the LV (20 ppi).

Another alternative for the first category would be the Gramercy, although it has 19 ppi (it makes up with aggressive filing).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, I'm really looking to get something mew just for dovetail cutting.

Something that is the cat's pajamas? :D

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

The best dovetail saw is the WILSON. But,they are very hard to come by!:)

Actually,any dovetail saw with a blade made from .015" AMERICAN 1095 spring steel(which is very hard to come by,I have a smallish supply-don't trust the Indian steel. It varies in hardness and possibly in carbon content,would be just fine. It's a matter of handle choice. And,I prefer MUCH,the brass backs that are FOLDED. Not just a little slit,glued in.

Ignore the BAD sentence composition here!

Would Swedish steel be good enough too? ;)
I don't know if 1095 from India really has worse mechanical properties, but the stuff sure loves to rust! Even here in a drawer of my desk it rusts quickly.

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek finally mentioned the Gramercy. This is a little different tool that may need to be handled and used to be appreciated. It is available fully made with a Walnut handle or as a kit. The hand filed/hammer set teeth are exceptional. Guess I have to think about the heavy dovetail saw or the carcase saw I have been thinking about that Derek mentions now.

[Derek Cohen]

Here is a review of the Gramercy dovetail saw (where it is compared with the LN) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw_html_a36620f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for the review, Derek. At the risk of taking this off topic I have a question about saw plates. Do you find a light saw and a skinny plate easier to control vertically than a bigger plate? I take your point about a lighter saw being easier to start the cut with, but I have found my Veritas "carcass" saw easier to control vertically than the Veritas "dovetail" saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

I have and like both the LN (heavier) and Gramercy (lighter) dovetail saws. They are very different in the hand. The LN feels very solid - the handle is large and asks to be gripped firmly. The Gramercy has a skinny handle, which forces one to grip it delicately. All saws - whether dovetail, tenon or fret - work best and saw straightest (for me - your mileage may vary as this takes practice) when they are allowed to cut under their own weight. I think that the larger and/or heavier the saw, the more one has to concentrate on taking the weight off the plate. It does not seem logical that a light saw, such as the Gramercy, can cut as fast as a heavier saw, such as the LN (which also has more aggressive teeth), and that this is achieved by less force when pushing the saw, but is does.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek makes a point that I have been thinking about for a while. I seem to cut better\straighter with lighter saws, minimal effort/pressure. As soon as I start trying to force/guide the cut I seem to go off course rapidly.

This may sound off topic at first. I use to do serious target archery. To be very accurate one has to learn to relax at full draw and simply wait. The more one tries to guide the aiming devise into place the more it bounces around. The trick is to relax and just let everything settle into place, even though the muscles involved are exerting themselves. The odd thing is the more one relaxes the less the aiming devise bounces around. The other thing is the arrow tends to end up going to the center point regardless of where one might think the aiming devise was pointed when the arrow was released. The trick, over all, is not to try to fire the bow but to wait for increased pressure from back muscles to release the arrow.

I think there is something similar going on when I try to force or guide a saw. I do better if I concentrate on relaxing and trusting the saw to keep the cut straight. All of this assumes, of course, that the saw is tuned to saw straight.

[Pat Barry]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm tending to favor the standard LN dovetail saw most right now. I like the classic look, the review by Derek led me to think the larger handle was a good fit for my hand. The price seems about mid-range. The specs for the tool also seem about mid-range.

Is the pull cut vs push cut purely a matter of user preference? I am not seeing any other particular benefit to the pull cut method for my own use but my only experience to date has been with a wobbly and inexpensive double sided Ryoba style with a replaceable blade. Do the users of the Japanese saws use them based on comfort or better sense of control or other preferences

[george wilson]

I think the Grammercy handle is too skinny,too. Looks like it could be broken easily. They have approximately the right idea of how to accentuate details with a file.

[Brian Holcombe]

Pat, I like the reference length. A dozuki is a long saw and it gives you a great visual reference to cut by. I used the LN saw and like it enough but always found myself leaning on the dozuki after some time.

[Pat Barry]

Pat, I like the reference length. A dozuki is a long saw and it gives you a great visual reference to cut by. I used the LN saw and like it enough but always found myself leaning on the dozuki after some time.
So, Brian, what are your thoughts on this one: Rockler Dozuki Dovetail Saw (http://www.rockler.com/dozuki-dovetail-sa) $48. Maybe you missed my previous reply - was curious your source for the saws you mentioned (below) so I could look them up and price them out. Was it TFWW?
"I have a couple dozukis;

Nakaya Eaks crosscut 210mm
Bessho Jiro crosscut 240mm for hardwood
Mitsukawa rip cut 240mm for hardwood.

I may add another Nakaya Eaks 210 for rip cut they're cheap and well recieved."

[Brian Holcombe]

Pat, did you receive my PM? I have no experience with the rockler saw but I sent over some sources.

[Bill McDermott]

Pat, I don't know if your Razor saw is configured for a pull cut or if you have any Japanese style pull saws, but this might be an opportunity to add one. I use all western saws, and love my little Adria DT saw, but there are times when the one Japanese pull saw I own comes in handy. Cutting wedges is an example. Enjoy your new saw whatever the flavor. Bill

[Curt Putnam]

I find all the saws you listed as too small for my hand. Grammercy & Lie-Nielson too skinny, Veritas not enough space between the horns, etc. If your hand is large ( > 3.75" ) across or xtra small I suggest you absolutely handle the saw before buying. Proper hand fit is a twitchy thing. I have a saw from Isaac Smith with his next to biggest handle which fir better than the one we expected would work best - go figure. Japanese style saws are largely exempt from fitting requirements.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm not one of our local saw gurus and I think the Veritas is a wonderful for a beginner starting out (relatively inexpensive, mild setup, and high quality, so no fettling to get going), but I've got to wonder if having your current saw sharpened and tuned up by a pro wouldn't be the best bang for your buck?

(OTOH- you said "want", so maybe never mind...?)

The Veritas is hard to beat for price/performance. It's reasonably well-balanced, has a good dead-straight plate, and has good ergonomics (at least for me). The only type of user who would be likely to be disappointed by the functionality is somebody who's "advanced" enough to want aggressive rake but hasn't figured out how to file their own saws.

The aesthetics are a different matter. If you're looking for "heirloom" tools then you're probably not going to like the Veritas very much.

One DT saw I wouldn't touch at all is the Cosman. I can't imagine paying $300CDN for a cookie-cutter saw with a plastic (oh sorry, he calls it "resin") handle. If you want that progressive toothing there are better options within that sort of budget.

[Tony Wilkins]

FWIW Bad Axe offers several sizes of handle.

[Keith Mathewson]

I have a number of LN saws which I have been happy with, including the dovetail saw. A few months ago I got a Bad Axe Beast Master and have been using it with greater frequency, even for tasks it is not well suited to. Given the preference I've developed for the Bad Axe I'm intending to sell all my LN and switch. I like George's suggestion of having 2 dovetail saws.

I first learned to use Japanese saws and while I prefer them for some tasks they weren't as comfortable for me, also a Bad Axe saw is cheaper than a handmade Japanese saw.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a number of LN saws which I have been happy with, including the dovetail saw. A few months ago I got a Bad Axe Beast Master and have been using it with greater frequency, even for tasks it is not well suited to. Given the preference I've developed for the Bad Axe I'm intending to sell all my LN and switch. I like George's suggestion of having 2 dovetail saws

Why not just send your L-Ns to Mark Harrell for sharpening? He'll charge you more than he would for one of his own, but it's a lot cheaper than buying all new saws and will get you the same results in the end, assuming the ergonomics are OK.

I have a Bad Axe Sash saw, and while it's quite possibly my single favorite saw I also recognize that the only unique aspect that impacts function is the tune. Even that's not all that special - I've finally taught myself to do a decent imitation of Mark's "hybrid" tooth geometry, and one of my LV Tenon saws now cuts almost exactly like the sash...

Backsaws are brutally simple things, with not that much to functionally differentiate them once you get beyond a certain "threshold" quality level. There's nowhere near as much differentiation as there is between plane designs for example. When I read reviews of saws both here and in magazines I can't help but suspect that the rankings mostly reflect tune and the reviewer's specific ergonomic preferences.

Obviously ergonomics are a different matter, but preferences there are so individualized that I doubt you're going to get that much from this thread...

[Chuck Hart]

One DT saw I wouldn't touch at all is the Cosman. I can't imagine paying $300CDN for a cookie-cutter saw with a plastic (oh sorry, he calls it "resin") handle. If you want that progressive toothing there are better options within that sort of budget.

His saw was rated best in class by FWW I have one of his saws and is great. Patrick have you even picked one up or is this just your prejudice.

[Stewie Simpson]

I've finally taught myself to do a decent imitation of Mark's "hybrid" tooth geometry, and one of my LV Tenon saws now cuts almost exactly like the sash...

Patrick; any chance you can post a photo showing the hybrid teeth you filed on your LV Tenon Saw. A quick brief on the process you followed would also be helpful.

Stewie;

[lowell holmes]

You can always make a new handle that fits your needs and sharpen the saw to suit you if nothing else works.

[Mike Brady]

I wonder how many people have multiple hybrid saws rather than than having dedicated cross and rip filed ones? or all of the above. I can see having one saw: a hybrid filed one; but why have hybrid and dedicated rip and cross cut saws? What's the rationale in adding a hybrid saw to an existing collection of saws? I've tried the Bad Ax saws and they definitely are slower cutting. They look nice, though!

[Patrick Chase]

I wonder how many people have multiple hybrid saws rather than than having dedicated cross and rip filed ones? or all of the above. I can see having one saw: a hybrid filed one; but why have hybrid and dedicated rip and cross cut saws? What's the rationale in adding a hybrid saw to and existing collection of saws? I've tried the Bad Ax saws and they definitely are slower cutting. They look nice, though!

The premise of your comment seems to be that zero fleam is ideal for rip cuts, the traditional 20-25 deg is ideal for crosscuts, and everything in between is a compromise that isn't optimal at anything.

FWIW (probably not much) I've come to think of fleam as more of a continuum. As you increase it you trade speed for better cut (particularly exit) quality. I personally like hybrid geometries for "near rip" cuts like tail cuts, and also when ripping woods with really screwy grain. In both of those cases I'm willing to sacrifice some speed but not a lot to limit splintering at the exit. On a related note one unusual thing Mark Harrell does is to put ~5 deg of fleam on his "rip" saws. I haven't tried one, but a lot of people swear by them.

Admittedly such preferences end up being highly subjective, and the fact that the hybrid saws feel "smoother" than rip saws may be unduly influencing my opinion.

Stewie, I'll post pix when I get a chance.

[Keith Mathewson]

Why not just send your L-Ns to Mark Harrell for sharpening? He'll charge you more than he would for one of his own, but it's a lot cheaper than buying all new saws and will get you the same results in the end, assuming the ergonomics are OK.

I have a Bad Axe Sash saw, and while it's quite possibly my single favorite saw I also recognize that the only unique aspect that impacts function is the tune. Even that's not all that special - I've finally taught myself to do a decent imitation of Mark's "hybrid" tooth geometry, and one of my LV Tenon saws now cuts almost exactly like the sash...
.

I did have all of my saws resharpened, one by Mark and the rest by LN. There are only 2 which I feel work exceptionally well. One is the LN dovetail and the other is the beast master, although I did have to send it back for retuning when I first received it. No distinction was observed between the one done by Mark and others by LN. One of the LN tracks off-line but I haven't taken the time to send it back. I have always had either a rip or crosscut filing, the beast master was ordered rip but arrived hybrid. Perhaps it is the fact that I am unfamiliar with hybrid filing which makes me more enamored with the Bad Axe saw, but it does appear to track better for ripping. As for the cost of replacement, LN saws on ebay sell for about 90% of new so I will lose almost nothing.

[Simon MacGowen]

His saw was rated best in class by FWW I have one of his saws and is great. Patrick have you even picked one up or is this just your prejudice.

This reminds me of the so many SawStop threads in which people trashed the SawStop for its high prices vs quality and the majority of them had only watched a demo on youtube or in person, but never had used a SawStop.

Cosman saws are just as good as ANY premium saws in the market, but like the SawStop, they are pricey. Would I buy it? Nope as I can say skills are more important than the saw, unless the saw in question is junk. I have used all the well-known saws mentioned here, but the difference is minute in my hand. Ask anyone good at sawing dovetails and most will tell you the same story.

Some dislike the Veritas saws but their prices are unbeatable and they are good saws for dovetailing. If you don't like their non-traditional style, don't go for them; but they can cut perfect dovetails (which again depends on skills not the saw).

Simon

[Nick Stokes]

I've never used the Cosman saw. But I watched the youtube video showing him make it. With that much skill and time involved, he can't charge much less than he does. Cool video by the way.

[Mike Brady]

I saw that video too. Did he ever show the saw being sharpened? I don't think so. Like every tool he demos, he kind of leaves the impression that if you buy it it will work for you like it works for him.

[Patrick Chase]

I've never used the Cosman saw. But I watched the youtube video showing him make it. With that much skill and time involved, he can't charge much less than he does. Cool video by the way.

I've played with a Cosman in a friend's shop once. I thought it was an excellent saw, though my personal preferences clash with a couple aspects of its design. I also think that the $69 Veritas, $125 L-N, and $140 Wentzloff are excellent saws, and therein lies the rub.

As I said previously, backsaws are fundamentally simple tools with less functional (as opposed to aesthetic) differentiation between makers compared to some other tools, and I don't see Cosman bringing anything to the table to justify his asking price. You can get heavy handles and progressive tooth pitch elsewhere, and everything else about that saw is bog standard, nifty marketing video notwithstanding. He makes a big deal of "hand-shaping" his plastic handles in the video, but then only offers 2 sizes (probably because he only has 2 sets of router jigs) and wants extra $$$ for a large handle. Everybody else at his price point offers much more customization, and indeed that's a big part of how they justify their asking prices. He's also not exactly setting the world on fire aesthetically, which is the other typical differentiator in that price range.

The comparison to SawStop actually does an excellent job of illustrating what Cosman lacks. SawStop developed and brought a new technology to market that added otherwise unavailable functionality and therefore value to the tool (and also meant that he needed to recoup significant up-front costs for R&D). The value proposition was and is very clear, and rather different from making basically the same thing in the same way as everybody else and trying to sell it for double the price.

Just because other makers don't feel the need to make a 50-minute promotional video about their manufacturing process doesn't mean they aren't doing similar stuff. Stewie or Ron would be more qualified to comment than I, but I didn't see anything remotely remarkable in that video. Obviously Veritas relies heavily on automated manufacturing to hit their $70 price point, but I doubt that Cosman's process is any different than L-N or Wentzloff.

Even if there is something about Cosman's process that makes his manufacturing cost uniquely high, that doesn't justify a high asking price *unless* it provides some benefit to the customer (customization options, aesthetics, unique functionality as with SawStop, etc). I just don't see where he's doing so.

[Mike Cherry]

Hard to argue against that Patrick. Never held the Cosman dt saw myself. I mentioned earlier that I use the LN dt saw, I forgot to add that I bought my Dad a Veritas dt saw for Father's Day last year. I thought it looked kinda plastic-looking but when I held it, it was a very solid tool. One that I would not hesitate to buy for myself. The price point on it is outstanding and it'd be a great saw to practice filing smaller teeth later on when it gets dull. Kinda hard to file teeth on a 200 dollar dovetail saw if you aren't confident in your abilities.

[Simon MacGowen]

Even if there is something about Cosman's process that makes his manufacturing cost uniquely high, that doesn't justify a high asking price *unless* it provides some benefit to the customer (customization options, aesthetics, unique functionality as with SawStop, etc). I just don't see where he's doing so.

My take is that any maker can justify his or her tools at a price point that people can afford to pay. This is no different from all the luxury cars that we see on the road. A lot of boutique tools fall into this category ... how can one justify, for example, a $120 (?) plane hammer? Many can do fine plane setting with a $10 hammer or a shop-made one.

Well, Cosman seems to have put in place a "mass production" process for his $300 (?) saws , meaning people are willing to fork out that kind money on his saws. I agree the process itself may not justify the prices he asks, but remember his name alone is worth money. Is it worth the extra $100 put on the price tag? It depends on who you talk to...I know owners of his saws would say yes, just as an owner of any Vesper's fine products would about their pricey tools.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Hard to argue against that Patrick. Never held the Cosman dt saw myself. I mentioned earlier that I use the LN dt saw, I forgot to add that I bought my Dad a Veritas dt saw for Father's Day last year. I thought it looked kinda plastic-looking but when I held it, it was a very solid tool. One that I would not hesitate to buy for myself. The price point on it is outstanding and it'd be a great saw to practice filing smaller teeth later on when it gets dull. Kinda hard to file teeth on a 200 dollar dovetail saw if you aren't confident in your abilities.

When people ask me for advice on backsaws it usually comes down to: If you want a utilitarian tool and don't care about appearances get the Veritas, provided the ergonomics work. If you want something that looks like a classic backsaw then get an L-N or Wentzloff, with the same caveat. If you're willing to pay $$$ for maximum customization and aesthetics then go to a fully or partially custom maker.

Also, don't pay too much attention to reviews, mine included. IMO a lot of the "goodness" of saws comes down to ergonomics and toothing, and those are both subjective and highly individual preferences.

The spine on the Veritas does indeed look like injection molded plastic because that's exactly what it is, though with high glass fiber and metal powder content for strength and density. If they tried to sell that for $125 I'd be going off on them right now for not being competitive with L-N and Wentzloff (similar functionality, IMO better aesthetics).

I learned (and am learning) filing mostly on my Veritas saws as you describe. The cheaper saws that I'd tried had functional deficiencies (warped plates, etc) that made it harder to tell what I was accomplishing, and I didn't want to hose my "good" saws. I still have never put a file to my Bad Axe. I've tried instead to imitate its toothing on other, cheaper saws.

[Patrick Chase]

My take is that any maker can justify his or her tools at a price point that people can afford to pay. This is no different from all the luxury cars that we see on the road. A lot of boutique tools fall into this category ... how can one justify, for example, a $120 (?) plane hammer? Many can do fine plane setting with a $10 hammer or a shop-made one.

Well, Cosman seems to have put in place a "mass production" process for his $300 (?) saws , meaning people are willing to fork out that kind money on his saws. I agree the process itself may not justify the prices he asks, but remember his name alone is worth money. Is it worth the extra $100 put on the price tag? It depends on who you talk to...I know owners of his saws would say yes, just as an owner of any Vesper's fine products would about their pricey tools.

Indeed. I'm not questioning Rob's judgment in any way - He's clearly figured out how to motivate people to pay top dollar for that saw, so he'd be crazy not to take full advantage.

[paul cottingham]

I'll preface this by saying I love Bad Axe saws (lucked into a sash saw here on the creek) and would probably buy every saw Mark offers if I could afford them. So I would buy one of his Dovetail saws without hesitation, but I am on a pension, so barring winning a lottery I never enter, Marks saws remain but a dream. Having said that, I do own both of the LV offerings, and would recommend them without hesitation. Even with my bad hand, the handle is comfortable, I do need to rest more than most people would normally need to, but that is not because of the handle. If you want a slightly more expensive saw, (but why? Seriously.) I have a LN carcase saw (a gift) that would be a fine dovetail saw, and everybody raves about their DT saw so there you go.

But seriously, unless you have some sort of weird objection to the handle, LV, baby.

[James Waldron]

To follow up on an earlier post, I checked with Dominic Greco at tgiag about a saw plate 3" X 10" for a dovetail saw in 0.015" plate. They've dropped the 0.015" offering for any plates greater than 2" apparently because of QC issues in toothing without distortion of the plate. Looks like I'll be going with 0.020" after all.

For my backsaws, I've adapted the Grammercy handle pattern from their dovetail saw, beefed up a little and dropped the hang angle a bit for a lower downward pressure in the cut. As George Wilson said a few posts back, the original Grammercy seems a bit too delicate and, for me, the hang would have me pressing the saw into the kerf and reduce control a bit.

[lowell holmes]

What is hybrid tooth geometry?

I know what crosscut and rip teeth are.

I also know Tage Frid sharpened all of his saws rip. At the Homestead Heritage classes, the saws were all rip. I'm comfortable cross cutting with a dovetail saw, but I prefer using a crosscut for it.

[Patrick Chase]

What is hybrid tooth geometry?

I know what crosscut and rip teeth are.

I also know Tage Frid sharpened all of his saws rip. At the Homestead Heritage classes, the saws were all rip. I'm comfortable cross cutting with a dovetail saw, but I prefer using a crosscut for it.

"Hybid" baslcally means that the teeth have fleam but not as much as a traditional crosscut saw. Bad Axe uses 10 deg rake, 12 deg fleam for example, vs traditional crosscut filings in the range 15/15 to 20/20.

[lowell holmes]

"Hybid" baslcally means that the teeth have fleam but not as much as a traditional crosscut saw. Bad Axe uses 10 deg rake, 12 deg fleam for example, vs traditional crosscut filings in the range 15/15 to 20/20.
Well, I've been filing with 12 degrees fleam anyway. I was filing hybrid and didn't know it.

Thanks!

[Paul Saffold]

I am right handed but left eye dominate. I have found I have better luck with Japanese saws. I suspect because there is no back to distract the view. I had a Veritas standard dovetail saw. It cut beautifully and the handle fit my hand well, but the big black spline was very distracting. The other western saws I’ve tried were all rehabed garage sale finds. I have 2 Gyokuchos (Razor Saw), a 240 mm dozuki #372. Yes, the dozuki has a folded back and I don’t use it as much. Also a ryoba 210 mm #649 that I have used the most and like. I don’t have any knowledge of the 2 Rockler saws you mention.