Jnats

[ken hatch]

After all these years of always going back to Ark Oil Stones as my goto honing and finishing stones. These times they are a-changin', I've mostly made the transition to Jnats for honing and finishing. As with all things wood and especially with all things sharpening....YMMV. When sharpening I try to look past shinny and instead look at the final scratch pattern and the edge produced. Honing and finishing on Jnats give me the best I've been able to see of both and I've been like a country song with sharpening stones, I've danced with most of the pretty girls.

The photo is of three chisels, the two outer chisels were honed and finished on Jnats, the middle chisel was honed and finished on Sigma Power Ceramic stones. You may be able to see the difference in the Jigane between the chisels. The light on the left chisel obscured the Jigane but it is almost exactly the same as the chisel on the right. What you can not see is the scratch pattern, while the Power Ceramic sharpened chisel out shines the Jnats it does not have as fine a scratch pattern.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/sharpChisels160516_zpst4sfhue6.jpg

The Jnats work beautifully on Western chisels as well, here is a AI chisel next to a Japanese chisel both finished on Jnats.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/sharpChiselsA160516_zpst31jpcjz.jpg

BTW, I finally pulled the trigger and have a Nakayama Asagi polishing stone on the way from So.

ken

P.S. Do not, I repeat do not go down the Jnat road if you ever plan to retire.

[bridger berdel]

I'm afraid my strategy of finding cool tools for cheap at thrift stores and yard sales means it will be a loooong time until I can play with those kinds of rocks....




After all these years of always going back to Ark Oil Stones as my goto honing and finishing stones. These times they are a-changin', I've mostly made the transition to Jnats for honing and finishing. As with all things wood and especially with all things sharpening....YMMV. When sharpening I try to look past shinny and instead look at the final scratch pattern and the edge produced. Honing and finishing on Jnats give me the best I've been able to see of both and I've been like a country song with sharpening stones, I've danced with most of the pretty girls.

The photo is of three chisels, the two outer chisels were honed and finished on Jnats, the middle chisel was honed and finished on Sigma Power Ceramic stones. You may be able to see the difference in the Jigane between the chisels. The light on the left chisel obscured the Jigane but it is almost exactly the same as the chisel on the right. What you can not see is the scratch pattern, while the Power Ceramic sharpened chisel out shines the Jnats it does not have as fine a scratch pattern.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/sharpChisels160516_zpst4sfhue6.jpg

The Jnats work beautifully on Western chisels as well, here is a AI chisel next to a Japanese chisel both finished on Jnats.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/sharpChiselsA160516_zpst31jpcjz.jpg

BTW, I finally pulled the trigger and have a Nakayama Asagi polishing stone on the way from So.

ken

P.S. Do not, I repeat do not go down the Jnat road if you ever plan to retire.

[Brian Holcombe]

Awesome, glad to see that he got back to you. Now I'm in the queue, lol, waiting on a stone.

Just fair warning, the Nakayama is also awesome for sushi knives. My yanagi-ba can cut a hanging hair and salmon fillet just parts without even a hint of effort.

[Stanley Covington]

Oh, that way madness lies;
Let me shun that;
No more of that.

[Frederick Skelly]

Ken,
I don't recognize the word/term "Jnats". Is it some kind of natural stone from Japan? I'm sorry. I just don't know. Thanks for teaching me.
Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

Fred,

I don't intend to speak on Ken's behalf, but Jnat is short hand for Japanese Natural Stone. It's not in reference a specific type of stone, but to all sharpening stones which come from the Japanese mines.

They have characteristics which cause them to become addictive. The main characteristic is that you think you can stop at one, but before you know it you have five or ten and want 'just one more'.

[Patrick Chase]

I thought about getting into Jnats, but decided on a crack habit instead. It's cheaper and less addictive.

Seriously, I get better results than that from my Sigma Powers. Is it possible you had cross-contamination or didn't spend enough time on the polisher? (13K I presume?).

Also there are diminishing returns. I have 0.5 um and 0.1 um (~20K and ~100K grit respectively, using a "Sigma-compatible" scale where 10K is 1um) diamond lapping films and paste, and the 0.1 um abrasives give unbelievably fine, striation-free edges under the 'scope. The only problem is that it doesn't translate to a noticeable difference when working wood, so I almost never go beyond 0.5 um and seldom beyond 1 um.

[ken hatch]

Fred,

I don't intend to speak on Ken's behalf, but Jnat is short hand for Japanese Natural Stone. It's not in reference a specific type of stone, but to all sharpening stones which come from the Japanese mines.

They have characteristics which cause them to become addictive. The main characteristic is that you think you can stop at one, but before you know it you have five or ten and want 'just one more'.


Ken,
I don't recognize the word/term "Jnats". Is it some kind of natural stone from Japan? I'm sorry. I just don't know. Thanks for teaching me.
Fred

Fred,

Sorry to take so long to answer but I spent the morning in the Sim trying to pay for my new jones :). Brian gave a better answer than I would have anyway.

ken

[ken hatch]

I'm afraid my strategy of finding cool tools for cheap at thrift stores and yard sales means it will be a loooong time until I can play with those kinds of rocks....

Just bring some of your cool, cheap tools over and you can play with my pretty rocks. BTW, they are pretty.

ken

[ken hatch]

I thought about getting into Jnats, but decided on a crack habit instead. It's cheaper and less addictive.

Seriously, I get better results than that from my Sigma Powers. Is it possible you had cross-contamination or didn't spend enough time on the polisher? (13K I presume?).

Also there are diminishing returns. I have 0.5 um and 0.1 um (~20K and ~100K grit respectively, using a "Sigma-compatible" scale where 10K is 1um) diamond lapping films and paste, and the 0.1 um abrasives give unbelievably fine, striation-free edges under the 'scope. The only problem is that it doesn't translate to a noticeable difference when working wood, so I almost never go beyond 0.5 um and seldom beyond 1 um.

Patrick,

I answered your post but it is lost somewhere where SMC hides posts never to be found. A shorter answer and not as well worded: X-contamination is always possible but I think not. I'm not a polish guy so maybe not. I do not like the way the jigane looks off the Sigma stones and to my 10X eye the Jnats give a scratch pattern that is pleasing.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred,

I don't intend to speak on Ken's behalf, but Jnat is short hand for Japanese Natural Stone. It's not in reference a specific type of stone, but to all sharpening stones which come from the Japanese mines.

They have characteristics which cause them to become addictive. The main characteristic is that you think you can stop at one, but before you know it you have five or ten and want 'just one more'.

I gotcha. Thanks for explaining Brian (and Ken)! I think I'd better avoid those. :)
Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick,

One of the goals a Japanese natural stone is ease of use. They are easy to build a slurry, dont have the same 'stiction' as many synthetics, dont require constant flattening and are otherwise very nice to use.

I can cut a hanging hair off a Nakayama asagi or Shinden suita and some light stropping. That's well beyond what's really required for woodworking, so even then we can search further yet for what meets the demands of woodworking and gets the edge a little faster. I'm generally not thrilled with the edge off of a 6k synthetic, but an equivalent natural stone manages to get a wonderful edge.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Patrick,

One of the goals a Japanese natural stone is ease of use. They are easy to build a slurry, dont have the same 'stiction' as many synthetics, dont require constant flattening and are otherwise very nice to use.

I can cut a hanging hair off a Nakayama asagi or Shinden suita and some light stropping. That's well beyond what's really required for woodworking, so even then we can search further yet for what meets the demands of woodworking and gets the edge a little faster. I'm generally not thrilled with the edge off of a 6k synthetic, but an equivalent natural stone manages to get a wonderful edge.

Darn you, Brian. That's like smoking in front of someone who is trying to quit.

I bought a grab bag of cutoffs that had a natural stone in it and the feel is amazing. The slurry is very fine and has a different quality to it from a synthetic. I had hoped a trip to Japan was in my near future, but the cost is just too high. I will eventually take the plunge. I decided to back off for a while on stones. I need a knife grinding belt sander amongst other things, such as Petra's education, but I may buy a natural stone soon.

By the way, I hate the term "Jnats." It sounds like a sporting event. "Hey, are you going to the Jnats?" "No, tickets were too high; I'm just going to watch them on TV this year."

[Brian Holcombe]

So true, they're just as hard to quit.

Not to be even more of an enabler, but if you are making knives you may find them handy, but different stones than those you might like for woodworking. I used to make knives as a teenager and used sandpaper and wooden blocks to take a knife from roughly ground to a fine polish. Doing it again I would probably use a series of natural stones. Good thing is that the rough ones are fairly cheap.

There is a good reason why I haven't visited japan....I'd never leave with my wallet intact.

[ken hatch]

So true, they're just as hard to quit.

Not to be even more of an enabler, but if you are making knives you may find them handy, but different stones than those you might like for woodworking. I used to make knives as a teenager and used sandpaper and wooden blocks to take a knife from roughly ground to a fine polish. Doing it again I would probably use a series of natural stones. Good thing is that the rough ones are fairly cheap.

There is a good reason why I haven't visited japan....I'd never leave with my wallet intact.

Brian,

It's only money. To paraphrase Fabulous Frank of the Furry Freak Brothers...."Jnats will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no Jnats". Or something to that effect, my memory is a little hazy.:D

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Lol! I like that line Ken....hopefully it will convince my wife as well :D

[Phil Mueller]

Not sure about all the steps in the middle but, Brian, I beleive you have #1 and #12 down.

Step 1: We admitted we are powerless over our addiction.
Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening...we tried to carry this message to other addicts...

I believe we have just defined the Brian 2 step program.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hah! Those steps are meant to get people away from their addiction.... I end up doing the opposite I'm afraid.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It's not an addiction, it's a passion. An addiction carries a negative result. A passion carries a positive. I see no negatives here. Things get sharper (positive), we enjoy ourselves (positive), we gain an appreciation for things (positive), and we go broke (YES- that's a positive, because the love of money is the root of all evil. Going broke helps us not love money and not be evil.).

There, I justified it for you. Now go buy whatever stones you need. Does this mean we are stoners? I believe that would be a great new term for people that use natural stones. "Don't mind that guy, he's just a stoner." The stoner term fits well- we talk about things that make no sense to anyone else, we're abnormally relaxed, and we spend hours and hours doing repetitive tasks. I propose a T-Shirt with a picture of a guy sharpening and the caption "Proud to be a stoner."

[Brian Holcombe]

Haha, this thread has taken quite a unique turn.

I am thoroughly justified in my pursuit now, LOL, thank you! We are abnormally relaxed and enjoy repetitive tasks....odd....my wife has mentioned this on occasion and now I see what she is driving at.

[Chuck Hart]

So Ken what is the first step down this slippery slope? I am tired of ceramic stones.

[ken hatch]

So Ken what is the first step down this slippery slope? I am tired of ceramic stones.

Chuck,

The safest way is to find a dealer you trust or if you are brave look on eBay. I went the dealer route. A couple of dealers to consider are So at Japan Tool (very busy and takes some time), much easier to contact Maksim Enevoldsen with JNS, or Mr. Lida at Lida tool. Brian has been playing longer than I have and knows much more about Jnats than I. I expect he could give you some good starting point advise.

ken

[Paul McGaha]

The Jnats are off to a pretty good start this year. At the moment, first place in the national league east. They're currently in New York playing the Jmets.

:D:D

PHM

[Brian Holcombe]

So has acquired a few stones for me now and he's a good friend more than strictly dealer at this point. He does have periods of time which is swamped with email requests so it takes some time.

Takeshi Aoki has also gotten a wonderful stone for me (He and David Weaver concurred on which to purchase). His company is Aframes Tokyo.

Most dealers are selling to enthusiasts of razors, knives and tools. Razor stones are very hard and do not create much slurry (unless you work them first with a diamond plate) and so they are incredibly fine but hard to use for tools and not usually very fast cutting. My Nakayama Asagi is just shy of a razor stone and it requires the bevel to be extremely flat but it pulls an incredible edge. It's not really necessary for woodworking and I pursued it out of want for an extreme edge. Basically if I were having trouble getting a very fine finish on wood I use that stone to give me a leg up.

Knife stones are usually very quick to slurry because it helps make the areas of the knife that transition toward the edge easier to work. They're also typically more coarse. Knife users are always talking about the 'Kasumi finish' and to achieve this finish the knife is worked on a stone that slurries easily then followed up with 'finger stones' to work that transition between hard and soft steel by hand. When I say above that I worked my sushi knife with a Nakayama Asagi I'm talking about only the extreme edge and the hollowed back, not the majority of the bevel. The bevel was worked with a Shinden suita and followed up with Uchimugori finger stones, and because my Shinden is not a knife stone the finger stone polishing process took quite a bit of effort to make a nice even finish.

Knife users and Katana polishers share much in common, many knives and Katana have a bevel shape called the 'Hamaguri' bevel, it's a tapering convex bevel, the stones they user are geared toward making those transition areas non visible.

Tool stones, stones intended to put a sharp edge on chisels, plane blades and other flat bevel cutting edges for woodwork are something of a middle road between these two extremes. Tools are easier to transition from stone to stone if the stones are of the harder variety because they remain flat. If the stone slurries by itself a little it also makes life easier and generally cuts a bit more aggressively. Generally looking for a nice balance between fast and slow that results in a good stone that's easy to use, can restore an edge quickly, and puts a clean and sharp edge on a tool.