Why didn't somebody tell me . . .

[lowell holmes]

That when sawing dovetails, place the work so that it is at the same elevation as your elbows. That way, your saw strokes will automatically be level and the cut will be square with the edge of the board. I discovered this when trying out my Knew Concepts saw.

I always have been "body mechanics" challenged. I just never considered it.

Derek, have you addressed this in your writings.

Maybe some of you will expound on it.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe because no one realized the elbow to work relationship.

I was in my later 50s before learning the relationship between driving a nail and the position of my elbow. It was in Audel's Carpenters and Builders Guide.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense with that perspective. It could be the piece I was practicing on with my new KC saw was at elbow height and was part of the equation of it working so well on my first try.

Surely "body mechanics" and the relationships to work height affect a lot of our tasks. Blade sharpening comes to mind as another where the fore arms should be "locked" but the elbows are in control of keeping them locked.

Thanks for sharing your discovery.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Great tip! I'm having the same 'duh' moment you must have!

Ironically, on my last case, I've been actually cutting below the base line of the tails and pins on the inside face. I keep the show side toward me, and saw right to the base, and then cut slightly below the base on the inside face. I find it helps keep a sharp corner. I will try your way!

[bridger berdel]

Thus the low woodworking bench height...

[Warren Mickley]

I have been saying this ever since the "Moxon vise" started. You see guys sawing with the saw handle right near their cheek. You arm is cramped you are bent over, very tiring.
337389 337390

I wrote about posture on this forum last fall:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236675-Workbench-Adaptations-for-the-vertically-endowed&p=2481690&mode=linear#post2481690

[Patrick Chase]

FWIW I always try to "line up" my joints in just about every physical activity, including sawing. I "built" (using the TFWW kit, hence the quotes) and tried a Moxon vice at one point but almost never use it as I prefer a low position for skeletal alignment.

I think it comes from a background in ski racing, where stacking your joints is the only way to stay centered over the ski while resisting the turning forces (which can easily reach 600+ lb on one foot for an upper-level competitor) and conserving enough energy to make it through the course.

[lowell holmes]

Warren,

We sometimes have to be hit in the head and/or have an enlightening moment.

:confused:

[Kees Heiden]

I had a quick look around on youtube to watch the posture of some well known, well trained woodworking professionals with plenty of experience. Everybody bends over when sawing dovetails. No wonder with those tiny things and these hard to see lines. But still, there is a lot of difference between bending a bit towards the work and sitting with your nose on your saw with a hunched back.

Frank Klaus, at 2:12 and 7:30. The view on upper body is very clear luckilly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAAglKLPh8

Paul Sellers at 4:30. Not a clear view from his upper body, but he sure isn't hunched over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCYjoj6cfno

From Colonial Williamsburg at 18:40. Again not a very good view of his upperbody, but agian clear that he isn't hunched over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7DmkZTYF3o

I's a pitty most filmers concentrate on the saw, not the sawyer.

I also had a look at my own posture. Ahem, maybe I shouldn't show this, I've got work to do on my body position. And my bench is way too low for fiddely stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cGLlmKSuWI

[John Sanford]

That when sawing dovetails, place the work so that it is at the same elevation as your elbows. That way, your saw strokes will automatically be level and the cut will be square with the edge of the board. I discovered this when trying out my Knew Concepts saw.

I always have been "body mechanics" challenged. I just never considered it.

Derek, have you addressed this in your writings.

Maybe some of you will expound on it.

Nobody told you, for one primary reason. Sawing dovetails presents the woodworker with two contradictory challenges. Body ergonomics, and sight. For the great majority of hand woodworkers today, sight limitations are a lot more obvious. Being able to see and cut the line trumps level saw strokes, which is why the Moxon and assorted other "raise the work" options have been popular.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I also had a look at my own posture. Ahem, maybe I shouldn't show this, I've got work to do on my body position. And my bench is way too low for fiddely stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cGLlmKSuWI

You look like quite a tall bugger! Your arm is pretty level though so I'm sure you're not cutting below the line either front or back.

[Patrick Chase]

Nobody told you, for one primary reason. Sawing dovetails presents the woodworker with two contradictory challenges. Body ergonomics, and sight. For the great majority of hand woodworkers today, sight limitations are a lot more obvious. Being able to see and cut the line trumps level saw strokes, which is why the Moxon and assorted other "raise the work" options have been popular.

Sight is overrated.

Seriously, and probably speaking only for myself, I get better results with limited sight and good body mechanics than I do with good sight and compromised mechanics. Sometimes I bend down to get a good look at the very start of a cut, as when starting on the scribed knife-line for a dovetail pin, but even then I do better if I transition as soon as possible to an aligned position.

[Bill McDermott]

In Jeff Miller's book, Foundations of Better Woodworking, he spends considerable time expounding upon this concept of proper body positioning. I have tried to adopt his advice and often find it unnatural, until it feels very natural. Funny how that works. Sawing, chiseling, planing... all benefit from a logical deployment of bones, joints, body mass and sightlines.

Having learned woodworking as a hand tool process, my initial use of power tools was a bit unnerving. Table saws really spooked me. Jeff suggests bracing your body against stationary machines, like a table saw. I would not have thought to do that. But the grounding it gives me provides more than just a third point for balance and stability, but a connectedness that eases my mind and allows me to focus on things in motion and relationships to sharp stuff. Zen of the Table Saw through proper body positioning?

Jim Tolpin's combination of two benches strikes me as a very effective way to work. He explains the topic under discussion in a YouTube (search "Tolpin Sizing Workbenches"). Interesting how he puts anatomically based units of measurement into his rationale for the height of work pieces in different processes to explain Lowell's revelation. It's a 6-minute video that covers lots of ground (yes, the volume needs to be cranked up).

Are we dovetailing Yoga and Hand tool woodworking into a new fad? Could it be done on a Stand Up Paddleboard while snacking on Gogi berries?

[lowell holmes]

Nobody told you, for one primary reason. Sawing dovetails presents the woodworker with two contradictory challenges. Body ergonomics, and sight. For the great majority of hand woodworkers today, sight limitations are a lot more obvious. Being able to see and cut the line trumps level saw strokes, which is why the Moxon and assorted other "raise the work" options have been popular.

When I'm standing at the bench with my work at elbow height, there is no vision impairment. In previous days, cutting the tails out was either a mallet and chisel exercise, or sawing exercise. If your work is at the same elevation that your saw is and your arm movement is in one plane, the back side will be level. You should be cutting in a level plane. You only need to see the nearest side and top of your work, and you will see the top.

If even the slightest vertical or lateral movement of the saw will create issues. If your arm and saw are linear and your movement is linear, the cut should be level. It's not 100% but it is much better.

[Gene Davis]

There is a reason a bar is at the height it is. Bar heights were set way before barstools came about.

Serious work is done at just the right height. Isaac Newton worked at a stand-up desk, and look what he developed.

Please don't mix your drinking with your cutting, however. You might end up making a perfect rebate in your forearm.

[Kees Heiden]

You look like quite a tall bugger! Your arm is pretty level though so I'm sure you're not cutting below the line either front or back.

Nah, just over 6 feet, pretty standard overhere. I have been contemplating to raise my bench for a while now. I just never get round to it. I think that alone would improve my posture a lot. It doesn't seem like I am hunched over the work too much here.

[James Pallas]

You have to trust your senses when working. These cuts were made with my eyes closed, no marks to follow. They are all mostly square and plumb, within 1/64. We are all born with this capability. I'm definitely not trying to brag here just trying to help. I was standing straight up because I can't bend at all well.
Jim

[lowell holmes]

I'm impressed! :)

[James Pallas]

I'm impressed! :)
Lowell try it for yourself I would think you would be happy with the results. Most of the good sawyers I have seen start their cut carefully and once the saw is engaged they cut away. I believe they pay more attention to where they are going to stop then any marked cut lines. This would not be so true for long rip cuts but for joinery work I think it holds true. Just watching the videos in this thread appears to back this up.
Jim