Does it really matter where a tool is made?

[Glenn de Souza]

There was a thread about Starrett squares recently that prompted a discussion about their products being made in the USA vs the revelation that some are made in (gasp) China. The assumption being that a product being made in the USA is good and a product being made in China would be junk.

Is this an accurate assumption, or just a widely held but not necessarily true bias?

I have heard comments from manufacturers that the quality that comes from their Chinese subcontractors is mostly a function of the quality control, supervision and enforcement of standards from the manufacturer themselves. Some are very vigilant about it and others are not.

The equation could go the other way also, where a USA manufacturer could have very low standards and still get the "benefit" of a positive bias that goes with being made in USA yet still sell junk.

When I was growing up, there was a deeply held perception that anything made in the USA, Germany, UK would be very high quality and almost everything else was inferior. In fact, in the 70's anything Japanese was considered to be junk, and then some time in the 80's it changed and all of a sudden Japanese made became a symbol of high quality.

So what's the point? Maybe making a good purchase decision requires looking past the country of manufacturer.

I also wonder whether more and more products are made by robotics and computer controlled machines. If they are set up and designed well at the front end, the human factor is much lower and less directly impactful than it would have been traditionally, so what difference would it make where the machinery is operating in terms of the quality of the end product? Maybe the manufacturing process is more portable than ever before, which also undermines biases associated with country of manufacture.

Not intending this to be a political post. I'm just saying that country of manufacture is a data point, but maybe not the decisive data point it once was.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Setting aside political arguments (which aren't allowed here anyway), I agree with your premise that we should be objective when determining the quality of a tool, and that may mean disregarding its country of origin.

The problem is that consumers have to be efficient in the process of deciding what things to buy. Think about all of the stuff we buy every year. Does anybody have time to do a deep analysis of each item before purchasing? Big purchases, like houses and cars, sure. But squares?

So by default, we organize some types of goods into categories to help us quickly separate high and low quality. And one of those criteria, which was probably a pretty safe assumption historically, is that Chinese-made tools are lower quality than USA-made tools.

In general, based only on my personal observations, I do think Chinese-made tool quality is improving. But like anything, you have to pay for it. Harbor Freight will always have low quality tools because low prices are the key to their business model, and people keep buying their stuff.

[Joe Jensen]

In my experience both at a personal level and professionally, the culture in China is different with respect to quality. You can spec a product 9 ways from Sunday for manufacturing in China and if you are not measuring and testing every spec at a very high sample rate the quality will suffer. In Europe and the US manufacturers generally intend to meet the specs. In China it seems that the culture is "If the customer isn't catching the drop in quality then it must not be that important". The other interesting cultural thing (it does seem to be changing some) is that most of the population grew up only purchasing the cheapest version of whatever. Say they are buying sandals. There are super cheap that will fail quickly, medium that will last a year, and expensive that will last indefinitely Everyone would buy the cheapest and then just find a way to keep using them indefinitely. They have a very clear "only the cheapest" producer will win mindset. I had over 200 customers there all pursuing the same market. They all had the exact same strategy, win on the lowest price and cut the quality as low as possible to hopefully make money. There are some wonderful products manufactured there, but it's really important if you are sourcing from China for your manufacturing you must test test test.

[Wayne Jolly]

Just my $.02 worth, I have purchased some products made in the USA because USA made is supposed to be superior, but turned out to be junk. I have also bought foreign goods intended for a single use that turned out to be my go to tools that I use all the time.

I see a continual decline in the quality of USA made goods. I think SOME of it is because the American workers are riding a wave of a false feeling that they are entitled. Entitled to the highest wages they can possibly get, free health care for life, job for life, participation in company management, etc. You hear a lot about "corporate greed", but that pales in comparison to "employee greed". If they don't get everything they want, they do a poor job. If they do get it all, then the cost of products goes way up and the products become less competitive. So to remain price competitive the manufacturers have to find ways to stay in competition. Cheaper materials, lower standards and tolerances, reduced functionality, etc.

The Chinese, on the other hand, are not stupid people. They are learning and getting better. They started out making junk, then so-so goods, and now some of it is pretty good. It isn't because the workers WANT to do the best job they can do, but because they have to. I certainly wouldn't want to be a worker in China, but even their conditions are improving. You hear less and less about crappy Chinese stuff.

As for robotics, yeah, more and more of it. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans just cannot match the repeatability, accuracy, and consistency of machines. The only thing machines are not good at (yet) is when something goes wrong. They can function in conditions that humans cannot even enter in to, all day, every day with no overtime, vacation, sick days, strikes, complaints, etc. I even heard that fast food joints are looking into replacing a lot of the human labor with machines. What do you expect when a burger flipper gets $15/hr.

I'd better shut up now.

Wayne

[Frederick Skelly]

I don't believe it's country-dependent. At its roots, quality is a matter of choice on the part of the maker, combined with the maker having enough experience/practice to be able to implement such a choice effectively. The japanese made very sure they could make small cars well, before they stepped up to making luxury cars. The Koreans are trying hard to catch up and when the chinese decide that it matters, they too make quality goods.

The adage "you can have it good, fast or cheap - pick any two" is another way of looking at it.

Edit: Also remember that china, like other countries, works to suit it's own best interests. TOS will not allow me to be political. I think I can say this much: there could be some very good reasons (from their point of view) for allowing shoddy goods to be built.

[David Kumm]

There must be perception differences as the Euro manufacturers- even those who make woodworking machines- tend to not be very forthcoming about what they source from China. Unlike the US, EU nations do not require much disclosure and to stay competitive, more and more of the machine parts and even assembly are done abroad with additional work done in the home country. As long as final assembly is done in EU, it is OK to imply that it is made in that country. Not drawing conclusions but have always preferred full disclosure. I can make my own judgment objectively. My only point is that we sometimes judge based on the wrong info. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

Just my $.02 worth, I have purchased some products made in the USA because USA made is supposed to be superior, but turned out to be junk. I have also bought foreign goods intended for a single use that turned out to be my go to tools that I use all the time.

I see a continual decline in the quality of USA made goods. I think SOME of it is because the American workers are riding a wave of a false feeling that they are entitled. Entitled to the highest wages they can possibly get, free health care for life, job for life, participation in company management, etc. You hear a lot about "corporate greed", but that pales in comparison to "employee greed". If they don't get everything they want, they do a poor job. If they do get it all, then the cost of products goes way up and the products become less competitive. So to remain price competitive the manufacturers have to find ways to stay in competition. Cheaper materials, lower standards and tolerances, reduced functionality, etc.

The Chinese, on the other hand, are not stupid people. They are learning and getting better. They started out making junk, then so-so goods, and now some of it is pretty good. It isn't because the workers WANT to do the best job they can do, but because they have to. I certainly wouldn't want to be a worker in China, but even their conditions are improving. You hear less and less about crappy Chinese stuff.

As for robotics, yeah, more and more of it. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans just cannot match the repeatability, accuracy, and consistency of machines. The only thing machines are not good at (yet) is when something goes wrong. They can function in conditions that humans cannot even enter in to, all day, every day with no overtime, vacation, sick days, strikes, complaints, etc. I even heard that fast food joints are looking into replacing a lot of the human labor with machines. What do you expect when a burger flipper gets $15/hr.

I'd better shut up now.

Wayne

I am not at all implying that the Chinese are incapable of quality. That's not the case at all. What I am saying is that the quality level is up to the OEM brand to decide and monitor. Most products manufactured in China are branded and sold by another company, say Bosch. Bosch specifies the quality and is also responsible to ensuring that quality. I am saying that Bosch would have to more closely monitor quality level when they outsource to China for the reasons stated above.

Also, I don't think the decline in quality of American made products was because the workers got lazy. The decline of quality in American made products is the consumer's insatiable appetite for cheaper products. Consumer chase price, brands lower prices, then they need to cut costs, they speed up the manufacturing line, they make parts lighter and cheaper, they reduce quality control checks, and eventually the products is crappy American made. Brands don't want to make crap but consumers only buy the cheapest. Then the next step is to fire all the American workers and move the manufacturing to a third party in Asia. The quality starts out the same and then it too drops as consumers put more and more pressure on the brands for cheap.

[Jon Grider]

Just my $.02 worth, I have purchased some products made in the USA because USA made is supposed to be superior, but turned out to be junk. I have also bought foreign goods intended for a single use that turned out to be my go to tools that I use all the time.

I see a continual decline in the quality of USA made goods. I think SOME of it is because the American workers are riding a wave of a false feeling that they are entitled. Entitled to the highest wages they can possibly get, free health care for life, job for life, participation in company management, etc. You hear a lot about "corporate greed", but that pales in comparison to "employee greed". If they don't get everything they want, they do a poor job. If they do get it all, then the cost of products goes way up and the products become less competitive. So to remain price competitive the manufacturers have to find ways to stay in competition. Cheaper materials, lower standards and tolerances, reduced functionality, etc.

The Chinese, on the other hand, are not stupid people. They are learning and getting better. They started out making junk, then so-so goods, and now some of it is pretty good. It isn't because the workers WANT to do the best job they can do, but because they have to. I certainly wouldn't want to be a worker in China, but even their conditions are improving. You hear less and less about crappy Chinese stuff.

As for robotics, yeah, more and more of it. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans just cannot match the repeatability, accuracy, and consistency of machines. The only thing machines are not good at (yet) is when something goes wrong. They can function in conditions that humans cannot even enter in to, all day, every day with no overtime, vacation, sick days, strikes, complaints, etc. I even heard that fast food joints are looking into replacing a lot of the human labor with machines. What do you expect when a burger flipper gets $15/hr.

I'd better shut up now.

Wayne
That "entitlement" perception may have had some merit in the 1980's and 90's but IMO is not valid in 2016. Manufacturing job wages have been stagnant or gone backward since the turn of this century, particularly when factoring in inflation in most every area except perhaps gasoline. I'm assuming you are focused on union workers as far as some of your broad statements about jobs and health care for life. Continually rising health care costs are being passed on to the worker with higher co-pays, higher deductables and much less coverage for the $. Many manufacturers both union and non union have a "tier" system for employees. New employees are paid far less with less benefits. Many employers are avoiding benefit costs entirely by use of temps and government corporate welfare incentives for hiring work release prisoners and felons under probation. Manufacturing initiatives like Toyotas lean manufacturing have been adopted by many USA corps. Lean seeks to eliminate "skilled" positions by breaking skilled jobs into smaller duties that anyone can perform. Performance expectations have increases exponentially, and in my experience speed has surpassed quality in order of importance. At the printing shop I've worked at, non union btw, since we've implemented lean, our ratio of reprints has risen dramatically. The shift in focus is meeting timelines whether the job is done correctly or not.
In my part of the midwest a $15.00 an hour burger flipper is non existent.
I think I'm going for a walk now with my better half.

[Robert Engel]

What I am saying is that the quality level is up to the OEM brand to decide and monitor.
I think this is the key. "When the cat's away the mice will play".

China is like every other manufacturer trying to increase profits and one way to do this is cut corners.

Don't think American manufacturers haven't been doing it, too.

We as a people are at fault because we look for the cheapest, just like the Chinese mentality described. My father was that way. It didn't matter whether it was a pair of shoes or an electric drill, he ALWAYS bought the least expensive thing he could find.

I, however, am quite the opposite. I will forgo buying something and wait till I have the money to afford quality.

[Martin Wasner]

Quality tools can come from anywhere. I have been disappointed by most Asian built tools that I've owned. There is a handful of things that are Asian made that I'm still interested in acquiring, but not many.

I have yet to be upset about anything German I've ever owned.

The thing is about having things built in China is that everything is built to a specification. Those specs can be low or high. Most American consumers are willing to spend a lot less so they can get a lower quality product. Those that are willing to spend multiple times more for a tool that is of higher quality are few and far between.

[Rick Potter]

Along with above concerns, we have to factor in changing conditions in 'emerging nations'. Older creekers will remember the 1950's when some really low quality stuff was made in Japan. It got so bad they renamed a city Usa, so they could label items as made in the USA. Time passed, quality increased, along with the pay of Japanese workers.

Then Taiwan emerged into a manufacturing giant, starting with making cheaper items than Japan. The cycle repeated, followed by China's undercutting of Taiwan manufacturing.

Now, we have Indonesia, India, and Viet Nam entering the fray, undercutting the Chinese near monopoly. In Europe, the former eastern block of nations is gaining strength also.

The beat goes on.

[Susumu Mori]

I want to chip in some food for thought.

First, when we talk about product quality, I think there are two meanings; how they are designed and how reliable they are.

Porsche is built from more precise parts than Toyota Corolla. Porsche can do it because they charge 5 times more $ for a car with a similar size.
It is just a market decision and Porsche can afford to make that decision because there are many people who are willing to spend $100K (of course, not me), while I'm not sure if anybody want to spend that amount for Toyota.
So their products are different from the design. I think we can have somewhat similar arguments for Chinese and EU tools. They are meant to be different.

Then there is the "reliability" issue. We know Toyota Corolla is as reliable as any Porsche. It is possible, just like Japan did in '60s and '70s, China will catch up in this department, but it seems not yet, in general. If we are lucky 90% of the users of a Chinese product without problem, there is a good reason to cerebrate the good purchase decision against unlucky made-in-USA customers with 1% chance (of course, I just made up exaggerated numbers). Some sellers of made-in-China seem to tackle this problem by better customer services, but, to me, it sounds terrible if I have to deal with parts exchange or product returns for a 700-lb machine. So, for a big purchase, it is likely that we pay extra for products with higher reliability.

The third point I want to bring up is, similar to a remark like "boys are taller than girls", "Chinese product is inferior to Made-in-USA/EU" may have truth in it but could be wrong for an individual base. Both from the product design and reliability points of views, we'd better know if we are talking about generalized idea or individual products.

For me, when I was young, made-in-China was the only option. Yet, I learned several things in hard ways. I thought a combination square was just a combination square, only to learn how horrible it could be and how great, in the long run, an investment to good tools is. I think availability of options is great, but I just feel sorry that few bad apples could scare me away from the entire lines from the same seller of made-in-China.

[Cody Colston]

I don't care where a tool is made. I look at value when purchasing most anything. If the quality + price = a good value, then I am getting what I am paying for.

I also don't think "Made in China" automatically means low quality nor do I believe "Made in USA" automatically means high quality.

[Frank Drew]

Chinese goods and skills in some product lines are often best-in-class: If I want a hand-lacquered bowl, I'll probably buy Chinese rather than American; same if I want a hand-made, hand-lacquered (not nitrocellulose) chest. Today, I'd probably lean towards older American or European woodworking machinery because there's a known level of quality.

As others have already pointed out, if the end-seller insists on a very high level of manufacturing quality, there are no doubt Chinese manufacturers who can meet those standards, but it comes down to what's demanded (and paid for). I mean, the Chinese are making commercial quality jets; I assume they can make a terrific table saw if the price is right.

[Peter Kuhlman]

Kind of hard to generalize about countries of manufacture any more. Electronics have moved from Mexico to China to Malaysia to Vietnam Nam as lower labor costs are found. Quality in my experience in Asian counties is all dependent upon a companies oversight. Lots of monitoring can yield high quality products - Apple for instance. It requires constant monitoring as my son will attest. He is in the electronics business and they are constantly struggling with quality issues in China but the company won't commit to sending full time inspectors.
As to tools, I avoid anything from Mexico. Several of the big name companies produce their corded tools there now and I find them to be virtual junk no matter what the brand name. Same with automobiles assembled there.
I prefer to buy a tool one time and am willing to save and wait to get a quality lifetime tool that I will take care of. Virtually nothing in power tools made in the North America anymore. Luckily there are several really high quality hand tool companies like Veritas, Lie Nielsen and others to choose from. I have never been one to say US stuff is the best as I was exposed at an early age to Swiss and German made products as extreme quality. I try to do my homework and use trusted web sites like here to help with product selection. As stated, it gets confusing when a company sells different price points of tools manufactured in various countries.

[Keith Downing]

In my experience both at a personal level and professionally, the culture in China is different with respect to quality. You can spec a product 9 ways from Sunday for manufacturing in China and if you are not measuring and testing every spec at a very high sample rate the quality will suffer. In Europe and the US manufacturers generally intend to meet the specs. In China it seems that the culture is "If the customer isn't catching the drop in quality then it must not be that important". The other interesting cultural thing (it does seem to be changing some) is that most of the population grew up only purchasing the cheapest version of whatever. Say they are buying sandals. There are super cheap that will fail quickly, medium that will last a year, and expensive that will last indefinitely Everyone would buy the cheapest and then just find a way to keep using them indefinitely. They have a very clear "only the cheapest" producer will win mindset. I had over 200 customers there all pursuing the same market. They all had the exact same strategy, win on the lowest price and cut the quality as low as possible to hopefully make money. There are some wonderful products manufactured there, but it's really important if you are sourcing from China for your manufacturing you must test test test.

One thing I think a lot of people don't realize is that Chinese manufacturers will produce the same product at different levels of quality (assurance), and different levels of price. This is intentional; you can think of it like varying levels of service. Many people buy the cheapest possible items from Chinese manufacturers online not realizing they are guaranteeing themselves to be getting lower quality pieces. While someone specifying a high quality need, and paying a little more, will often get exceptional quality pieces from the exact same manufacturer on the exact same items.

It is not like that in the states. Here manufacturers strive for consistency on every single piece, and generally charge the higher price for every item (even if they all end up average).

At the end of the day, I believe China is 10x better at manufacturing than the US. You just have to understand the market, and specify your needs. Of course you have very little consumer protection buying there, especially as an international purchase. So that is obviously something to factor in.

[Keith Downing]

One of the mods over in the engravers forum posted some great information about his trip to China to visit some manufacturers a few years back. For some reason the formatting of the first post is horrible, but the information was really interesting to read through.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?165815-Despatches-from-China

[rudy de haas]

First, I agree with most of the other comments here: built to spec, need for stringent quality control, effect of price sensitivity, etc etc.

Second, there are couple of other things worth noting:

1 - on a personal basis I buy made in Canada or the USA whenever possible - even if there is a (reasonable) price penalty for what appears to be comparable quality. I do this because a failure to support indigenous mfg means that we become increasingly dependent on foreign mfg - and that's a bad thing.

2 - there are mfg processes which require very high skills and broad cultural commitments to quality. I just got my mother in law to get new hearing aids (and maintain I'm entitled to a handicap sticker on my car for having to put up with her) - from Starkey. These are Minnesota made, twice the cost of anything else, and only a little better - but worth every cent to her because that little bit better makes a very big difference. That's sophisticated human engineering and electronics, but the same argument applies to simple tools: a straight edge should be easy to make in China, right? Except that designing and making them turns to be a very difficult process and the best ones are made by people who have the tools, the experience, and the commitments (underline commitments) to doing it well - so good ones are made in the U.S. or Germany, not China, and not Japan.

3 - the regulatory and "political" (corruption) environment in the host country (and the specifics of what you're making) makes a big practical difference in quality control. If you write a clean spec and put people on the ground, getting quality out of your contractor is a lot easier (i.e. cheaper and more consistent) in Taiwan than in the PRC or Mexico - similarly you can hope to do well in places like most American states, Poland, or England, but will face more difficulty in places like Ontario, Quebec, or France.

4 - all of this stuff has a bootstrap component: you can't make a high quality chisel unless someone makes high quality steel. If you move mfg to a foreign contractor and that organization simply can't get consistent quality in its inputs, it doesn't matter what you do: some product examplars will fail (often spectacularly) and you'll end with a reputation for junk (remember: bad news is vastly more credible, and spreads much faster) than good news, so one failure cancels hundreds of successes.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Overall, if it is well made I will buy it, but with anything made of metal, beware of Chinese made goods. Their metals just are not as strictly regulated as the US, GB, Germany, Sweden, etc. that is where a lot of the problems lie- in the poor quality of the materials used. Go buy a stainless steel screw made in China and buy a US, GB, or DE made one. The difference will be immediately visible. The founding is poor, the purity poor, and ultimately the product is poor because of this.

[paul cottingham]

First, I agree with most of the other comments here: built to spec, need for stringent quality control, effect of price sensitivity, etc etc.

Second, there are couple of other things worth noting:

1 - on a personal basis I buy made in Canada or the USA whenever possible - even if there is a (reasonable) price penalty for what appears to be comparable quality. I do this because a failure to support indigenous mfg means that we become increasingly dependent on foreign mfg - and that's a bad thing.

2 - there are mfg processes which require very high skills and broad cultural commitments to quality. I just got my mother in law to get new hearing aids (and maintain I'm entitled to a handicap sticker on my car for having to put up with her) - from Starkey. These are Minnesota made, twice the cost of anything else, and only a little better - but worth every cent to her because that little bit better makes a very big difference. That's sophisticated human engineering and electronics, but the same argument applies to simple tools: a straight edge should be easy to make in China, right? Except that designing and making them turns to be a very difficult process and the best ones are made by people who have the tools, the experience, and the commitments (underline commitments) to doing it well - so good ones are made in the U.S. or Germany, not China, and not Japan.

3 - the regulatory and "political" (corruption) environment in the host country (and the specifics of what you're making) makes a big practical difference in quality control. If you write a clean spec and put people on the ground, getting quality out of your contractor is a lot easier (i.e. cheaper and more consistent) in Taiwan than in the PRC or Mexico - similarly you can hope to do well in places like most American states, Poland, or England, but will face more difficulty in places like Ontario, Quebec, or France.

4 - all of this stuff has a bootstrap component: you can't make a high quality chisel unless someone makes high quality steel. If you move mfg to a foreign contractor and that organization simply can't get consistent quality in its inputs, it doesn't matter what you do: some product examplars will fail (often spectacularly) and you'll end with a reputation for junk (remember: bad news is vastly more credible, and spreads much faster) than good news, so one failure cancels hundreds of successes.
Amen.

we are pretty poor, and I still shop this way. Chinese stuff, only of noon else makes it, and only if nothing else will do.

[Keith Weber]

I've worked in China for 12 years now, and lived there for the last 9 years (though I still keep a shop in the US), so I'm very familiar with Chinese culture and the people that live there. Firstly, the word "Asian" is totally useless in this discussion. I usually only hear it from Americans. There are huge differences in culture and the people that live in Asia. One country is totally different from the next.

I would (and do) buy Japanese tools in a heartbeat. They have a sense of honor and pride in their work that I would say you would be hard pressed to find in the US these days. The Chinese do not have that those traits. It is totally a cultural thing. I've never understood it, but I have learned to accept it.

Others have mentioned that the company determines the quality level of the product. While this may well be a factor, it would certainly be an uphill battle in China. I had a condo renovated over there by Chinese workers. You give them the plan, they tell you they understand the plan, but if you leave the job site, the plan will deviate rapidly. I'd come back to find that they were installing all of your light switches at different heights, so I made them fix it. When I leave again, I'd come back to find that the finish plastering around a window would be out of square by 1" in 30". I'd make them fix it. The fix was always perfect, but no matter how many times you'd go through this routine, they could never learn that it was less work to just do a quality job the first time. It is ingrained in their work ethic to do make a crappy product quickly. It doesn't bother them if they get busted. They just don't care. They do a job, they get paid. That's it.

If you try to return something because it fell apart in a short time, they don't see the problem. If something breaks, you just buy another one. For a manufacturer to get a consistently high-quality product out of China, they would have to check each and every product that leaves the factory -- something that is nearly impossible to do while keeping costs low (the whole reason that they're manufacturing in China in the first place.

Despite living there, I don't buy Chinese stuff. I'll gladly pay a premium for things made elsewhere. The Japanese used to make junk in the '80s. They make quality stuff now. Some say that China will follow suit. I don't believe it. To do that you need pride, not greed. If you want inexpensive stuff that lasts a short time, China is king. If you want the best, you aren't going to find it in China in my lifetime.

[Joe Jensen]

I've worked in China for 12 years now, and lived there for the last 9 years (though I still keep a shop in the US), so I'm very familiar with Chinese culture and the people that live there. Firstly, the word "Asian" is totally useless in this discussion. I usually only hear it from Americans. There are huge differences in culture and the people that live in Asia. One country is totally different from the next.

I would (and do) buy Japanese tools in a heartbeat. They have a sense of honor and pride in their work that I would say you would be hard pressed to find in the US these days. The Chinese do not have that those traits. It is totally a cultural thing. I've never understood it, but I have learned to accept it.

Others have mentioned that the company determines the quality level of the product. While this may well be a factor, it would certainly be an uphill battle in China. I had a condo renovated over there by Chinese workers. You give them the plan, they tell you they understand the plan, but if you leave the job site, the plan will deviate rapidly. I'd come back to find that they were installing all of your light switches at different heights, so I made them fix it. When I leave again, I'd come back to find that the finish plastering around a window would be out of square by 1" in 30". I'd make them fix it. The fix was always perfect, but no matter how many times you'd go through this routine, they could never learn that it was less work to just do a quality job the first time. It is ingrained in their work ethic to do make a crappy product quickly. It doesn't bother them if they get busted. They just don't care. They do a job, they get paid. That's it.

If you try to return something because it fell apart in a short time, they don't see the problem. If something breaks, you just buy another one. For a manufacturer to get a consistently high-quality product out of China, they would have to check each and every product that leaves the factory -- something that is nearly impossible to do while keeping costs low (the whole reason that they're manufacturing in China in the first place.

Despite living there, I don't buy Chinese stuff. I'll gladly pay a premium for things made elsewhere. The Japanese used to make junk in the '80s. They make quality stuff now. Some say that China will follow suit. I don't believe it. To do that you need pride, not greed. If you want inexpensive stuff that lasts a short time, China is king. If you want the best, you aren't going to find it in China in my lifetime.

I have to agree, a hearty

[Allan Speers]

Overall, if it is well made I will buy it, but with anything made of metal, beware of Chinese made goods. Their metals just are not as strictly regulated as the US, GB, Germany, Sweden, etc. that is where a lot of the problems lie- in the poor quality of the materials used. Go buy a stainless steel screw made in China and buy a US, GB, or DE made one. The difference will be immediately visible. The founding is poor, the purity poor, and ultimately the product is poor because of this.

Does that likely apply to cast iron? (The implications being obvious .... )

[Allan Speers]

I would (and do) buy Japanese tools in a heartbeat. They have a sense of honor and pride in their work that I would say you would be hard pressed to find in the US these days. The Chinese do not have that those traits. It is totally a cultural thing. I've never understood it, but I have learned to accept it. .


I imagine that this has a lot to do with China having been a "communist" (or whatever) state for so long. Under such systems, because there's no real free market, there is very little motivation for someone to strive for quality, nor to search for innovative ideas. (either in products, or manufacturing techniques.) It breeds a "good enough" attitude.

I'm not a big fan of pure capitalism, either, but if you can have only one, it's pretty clear which has the most benefits.

[scott spencer]

Most companies move their manufacturing to lower cost labor pools to save money, not to improve quality. If a company wan'ts high quality, they need to have very clearly defined, detailed specifications, and a willingness to enforce them.

[Larry Frank]

First, I think of quality differently than used in this thread. Quality is adherence to standards. A company like Jet, Grizzly and many others must specify exactly what they want and also set up inspection standards. They must also audit to make certain standards are achieved.

Why is Japan so good? It is because they used an American, Deming, who gave a speech "Statistical Product Quality Administration". They took his ideas in the 1950s and went on to produce very great products. I have been to Japan many times and have observed this in action. They work to remove all variation.

This type of statistical quality control is used around the world and very heavily in the automotive industry.

To get a great product you need great specifications, consistent production processes and appropriate inspection. This does have a cost. If you want cheap products, have loose specs, do little inspection and let the customer find the defects.

[Ole Anderson]

Saturday I had to reseat ribbon cables on 4 Crown professional audio power amplifiers. Three were built in 2006 and tagged as designed and assembled in the USA, while an identical amp built in 2011 was tagged as made in China.

[William Adams]

One consideration is environmental — the U.S. is far more efficient in terms of energy usage for manufacture, and that energy comes from sources which are not polluting the environment to the same degree as those in China — Germany does slightly better if memory serves.

See Bob Warfield’s 28 April blog post on the CNC cookbook site. Top hit when searching for cnc+cookbook+china+energy

[roger wiegand]

Good stuff and bad stuff can be (and is) made anywhere; I think the difference is in the variability. Most of the things made in Germany, Switzerland, or Japan tend to be pretty good, ranging to excellent. Manufacturing in South Asia, China, and, sad to say, the US, is all over the map, ranging from utter junk to very good. So you can buy a German or Swiss tool with a high expectation that it's going to be OK, from other places it's buyer beware. You really have to look carefully at the individual product.

[Rich Riddle]

I believe it matters with where if you define where as specific manufacturers. Some manufacturers cut every corner, some have high quality control. I long ago abandoned the delusion that made in the USA meant high quality.

[Brian Holcombe]

That's sophisticated human engineering and electronics, but the same argument applies to simple tools: a straight edge should be easy to make in China, right? Except that designing and making them turns to be a very difficult process and the best ones are made by people who have the tools, the experience, and the commitments (underline commitments) to doing it well - so good ones are made in the U.S. or Germany, not China, and not Japan.

.

The Kezurou Kai crowd uses these;

http://www.matsui-seimitsu.co.jp/straight_edge.html

And so far they can take shaving thinner than 8 micron, so I think Japan has their straight edges down pat.

[Mark Henshaw]

This is a very interesting topic! I run the quality division for a multi national corporation that has 26 manufacturing plants throughout the world. We built and currently operate a 1 million square ft facility in Wuhan China in 2007 to produce steel related components. A few short observations about this plants quality as it compares to our European and N. American plants producing comparable items.
1) The Chinese line operators are very keen to learn new skills and if properly trained, pick up the skills as fast or faster then most of their counter parts. The SOP or work instructions must be very detailed as the operators/supervisors/ line engineers generally do not take initiative when they see something that is not specifically spelled out in the work instructions. Many decisions that should be made on the floor take hours or even days to get to senior management. I see most of our other plants taking the responsibility for these decisions at a much lower level.
2) The education of the younger Chinese is exceptional. Because we pay at a premium pay for the area, we have many of our line operators with engineering and other technical degrees. They will actually make more money being a line operator then working as an engineer for a state run company.
3) I can not speak for manufacturing at other regions of China, but in our plant we continue to see a need for a 20% larger quality control team and still have a quality return rate and scrap rate that is in the lower 25% of our facilities.
4) It is difficult to qualify sub-suppliers for components that we purchase. After sending prints and having detailed discussions/negotiations with machine shops, we will get a prototype that clearly does not meet the print. When we discuss this with the company they will tell us that they produced the part as inexpensively as possible (cheapest way possible) and that they did not believe that many of the notes or tolerances added value to the part. Many of the smaller manufacturing houses (less then 100 people) do not have access to western components such as bearings or motors.
5) Quality certifications in the country are useless. ISO certifications are bought and sold for a couple of thousand dollars. There are some very good inspection services in the country but to the average consumer the term "ISO certified" should mean nothing for a Chinese made product.

I own tools from all over the world and firmly feel that the consumer should look at value rather then price. Look at online reviews and determine if the value point is correct for you and your needs. In my experience, the company producing the tool or component has the control over the quality process no matter where it is made but products produced in China or other countries that lack the history of producing high quality components require a significant amount of additional attention to their quality control process. Failure to do this will result in a much higher degree of variation in their finished product.

[Susumu Mori]

Mark, very informative with real numbers and experiences!
What you told from a manufacturer's point of view confirms how I feel about those products as a consumer. Again, I'm talking about "generalized" feeling, not denying that there are excellent products made in China.
The problem is, we, consumer, buy things only once or twice especially for larger investments and do not have extensive prior experiences, that would allow us to perform hands-on comparison of products from different countries.
So, inevitably I'm driven by the general concepts....

[Erik Loza]

SCM Group manufactures entire machines in China. CNC machines, so yes, quality machines are capable of coming out of there but I agree with whoever it was that made the statement that mfrs. go to China not for quality, but for the lowest cost. What the Italians have told me, regarding mnfrng. in China, is that if you leave quality control up to the Chinese, you might get one or two samples out of ten that are acceptable. That jives with the feedback I get from shops and field techs who run or who have worked on Chinese machines (no brand in particular) in commercial shops. For example, an independent tech I know, who services SCM as well as other brands of machinery, told me about two separate instances recently. Two brands of machinery that, we'll just say, are pretty well known and well represented in the industry, both made in China. The first was a new 4x8 CNC that mechanically was fine, but required a complete rebuild of the stepper motors in order to operate properly. The second was some classical ww'ing machinery that, according to the tech, the shop owners said were breaking down all the time and never ran right.

I know that SCM has to have Italians supervising the QC at many steps along the way, just like I know that another well-represented European mfr. has their machines carcases shipped, 90% complete, from China to their European factory, for final assembly by their own people. In other words, the trust isn't there and it seems to be industry wide. But, everyone wants a better price, so this sort of thing will continue.

Erik

[Chris Padilla]

I work for a well-known high-tech company and we build just about everything in China. It comes down to making sure they follow strict quality controls. If a particular factory doesn't maintain our standards, we'll find someone who can...and we have...plenty of times.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Chinese stuff was junk about 10 years ago when I joined this forum.
It's gotten better.
Eventually, China will figure it out.

My only problem here is - when?
I'm 64 and don't have another 20/30 years to wait for china to figure it out.....

[William Adams]

Yeah, the problem is in QA, and what can be done at what price point --- still bummed about the perfect handled parallel tip screwdriver set I got from Lee Valley which had not quite perfectly fitting handles (the Canadian-made pocket marking gauge and plane screwdriver I got in exchange are far nicer, though admittedly lacking the interface between riveted wood and metal which presented problems for the screwdrivers).

[Cody Colston]

Sawstop saws are mfg'd in Taiwan. The many SS owners on theis forum almost invariably tout the quality of the machine as well as the safety feature. Evidently Sawstop ensures the product is consistent with their design specifications...as any company can do if they choose.

[David Kumm]

I also think that the number of consumers who really understand quality are in the minority. We all have a tendency to rationalize our decisions and it takes a ton of homework to understand the real differences in what we are buying, be it machinery or shoes. Until we as consumers step up our game and learn enough about what we are buying to demand better quality rather than asking first about price, we will get what we deserve. Dave