Shop progress-insulation

[Robert Tarr]

Well, the next step in my shop is currently underway. I am having my shop insulated with sprayed in poly insulation. It is expensive, but the building had major air leaks (ship lap siding) and in the long run, it was cheaper than starting with a proper air/vapor barrier, insulation etc. and I wouldn't have ended up with near the R-value for the space.

Pics,
1) all my stuff in the middle of the space covered in plastic
2) progress of pictures
3) shop dog making sure they are doing a good job and not taking tools ;-)
4) positive pressure in the building to keep overspray from going into the downstairs space
5) picture of me standing next to the chimney in the newly insulated space


Here is a link for the other stages of the project. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22873

[Robert Tarr]

Next steps are new electrical service to the house and shop (400 amp total). While I am trenching, I will also run water and a couple Cat 5 cables for PC and phone access in the shop. I am in the process of quoting out a new boiler for the house, so I might trench for hydronic heat from the house as well (if not, I will be adding a boiler out there, as hydronic is the direction for me....in the short term a small wood stove downstairs is in the works.) New windows are also in store for this space (16...ouch.)

More progress shots to come.

Robert

[Chip Olson]

Won't that insulated roof cause ice dam problems in the winter?

[Dan Oliphant]

Robert,
Looking good so far, what are your plans for the double exterior doors? Do they need to be replaced?

[Robert Tarr]

Dan,

I am still on the fence. Buy a new set of insulated doors, make my own, or just use a good weather seal and ridig insulation. I think I will use ridig insulation and keep thinking on options. Ultimately I would like to do a new set of doors, but have to get buy in from the boss on all changes to the outside of the building (you should have overheard the discussion on windows....)

Chip,

I asked the same thing and was assured it wouldn't and will be less of an issue than I have now. The building has a dark colored slate roof and steep angles, so any snow build up should slide off without much issue and it doesn't take much sun to warm the slate enough to have it snow and ice free before any other buildings around here. Long story short, I did a bunch of research and it shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for looking,

Robert

[Corey Hallagan]

Robert that is going to be a very cool shop space! Is that a shop upstairs and your living space down? Nice set up.

Corey

[Robert Tarr]

Corey,

Thanks for the compliment. I think it is going to be super shop space/artist space. Tons of light and great views.

The shop is upstairs over a 30X30 3 car garage. The house is probably 20 yards away.

All in all, I am trying to build the perfect shop for my needs and I think I am getting pretty darn close.

Robert

[Corey Hallagan]

Wow, that would be a very cool area to have. Can't wait to see more!

Corey

[Jim Becker]

Won't that insulated roof cause ice dam problems in the winter?

No, it's one of the nice things about this form of insulation, especially for vaulted ceilings. It doesn't let the things that cause ice dams to happen becuase of how efficient an insulator and vapor barrier it is. It also really stiffens the structure big-time. If I don't use SIPs when we do our addition, I'll be using this stuff, too.
----

Golly, Robert...those pictures look SO familiar!! LOL!

[Robert Tarr]

Golly, Robert...those pictures look SO familiar!! LOL!

LOL, it was easier to use your formatted pics than to go through the trouble of formating my pictures of the same darn thing.

Thanks Jim!

P.S.

Here are some of my pics of the other side of the pile (aka, dualing bandsaws...)

[Andy Hoyt]

Finally! Someone did the same thing I did. Robert you will be VERY pleased when you analyze your energy costs next spring. Yup, sure was expensive, but not when you factor in the time and aggravation involved in cutting batts or rigid foam to a precise degree to properly close up the gaps in buildings like these that have balloon framing with no consistency to framing centers. Well done!

[Bob Marino]

Great job, Robert.

It's going to be one heck of a shop.

Bob

[Matt Meiser]

Next steps are new electrical service to the house and shop (400 amp total). While I am trenching, I will also run water and a couple Cat 5 cables for PC and phone access in the shop. I am in the process of quoting out a new boiler for the house, so I might trench for hydronic heat from the house as well

Robert. I would bury a couple extra conduits with pull cords as well. The PVC stuff is cheap and you'll probably be glad you did at some point in the future. I was wishing I had some when I installed a security system recently and I had to use 802.11G for the computer in my shop because I couldn't get CAT5 without trenching again.

[Norman Hitt]

This should be really effective and should certainly payout in a reasonable time, especially with our current trend of higher energy costs. I do have one question though. From looking at the pics, it appears that they didn't completely fill the foam in so it comes out even with the frame members. I don't have any firsthand experience with this stuff, but did notice that when they installed it on a project on "This Old House, they slightly overfilled the areas, and then used a straight edge and skimmed them off smooth and even with the framing members, which (I would guess), would give Maximum insulation effectiveness, due to the increased and even thickness throughout. Did they not do this on yours strictly due to the cost of the extra foam, or..............? I'm curious, because I might want to consider this material at a future date.

[Bill Lewis]

Norman, Only on This Old House do they completely fill the wall cavity. You pay extra for that, and we were told by the installer that it really isn't necessary (no performance gain), but they will do it for the premium because some people want it that way.
We have used Icynene insulation on 2 houses now. Which is the same stuff they use on TOH.

Jim's right about spraying directly to the roof sheathing. It was also explained to us the same way. Both of our installatoins have included this application without any problems. One thing though, Icynene will not stiffen the stucture, it is a soft foam. Other rigid poly foams may do so. BTW, Icynene is the only foam that has zero outgassing, other than water vapor during installation. This really didn't matter much to us, but it may be a concern for some people.

[Frank Pellow]

Its looking reaaly good Robert. What are you going to cover the insulation with and what colour will the walls and ceiling be? White works best in my opinion.

[Seth Poorman]

Robert Looking Good , That should keep you toasty warm !!
I have a 28 x 36 w/ a 8/12 pitch roof that Im getting sprayed next year,
the guy thats going to do it said he would charge me only $800 top to bottom.
I would do it now , but Ive already spent to much on toys this year and I have to take into consideration the other half!!!!!
Good Luck - Seth..

[Jim Becker]

This should be really effective and should certainly payout in a reasonable time, especially with our current trend of higher energy costs. I do have one question though. From looking at the pics, it appears that they didn't completely fill the foam in so it comes out even with the frame members. I don't have any firsthand experience with this stuff, but did notice that when they installed it on a project on "This Old House, they slightly overfilled the areas, and then used a straight edge and skimmed them off smooth and even with the framing members, which (I would guess), would give Maximum insulation effectiveness, due to the increased and even thickness throughout. Did they not do this on yours strictly due to the cost of the extra foam, or..............? I'm curious, because I might want to consider this material at a future date.

Norm, there are different kinds of spray foam insulation. This is the closed cell type and doesn't need to fill the bay to get maximum benefit. The closed cell material also performs the vapor and air infiltration barrier job and is very efficient in the "R value per inch"...something like R7 per inch. This stuff dries "hard" and stiffens the structure at the same time it makes for energy efficiency.

The open cell type is about R4 per inch and does not provide the vapor and air infiltration barrier. You need to use more of it for the same insulation benefit and still use house wrap and vapor barriers. It's also much "softer" to the touch...noticably so. The cost is lower than the closed cell type, too.

My preference is for the closed cell foam even though the cost is higher...partially mitigated by eliminating the need for the house wrap and separate vapor barrier. (and the labor to install them)

[Andy Hoyt]

Icyene wasn't available to me, but sprayed polyisocyanurate was. Even though our wall cavity was a full five inches (+/-) the installer said I'd be nuts to fill it up. He convinced me that two inches was more than adequate even in our cold northern climate. However, be went a bit thicker at the sills underneath the shop.

Not only am I toasty all winter, but stay much cooler in the summer. And this stuff is rigid. The barn used to creak in high winds and the loft floor used to groan when you walked on it. Not any more. I'm very pleased. And a year later when I built a Finishing Room upstairs in the loft he was back to do that space too.

[Robert Tarr]

Norm,

On TOH, they typically use the Icynene product. It is the one that grows like a sponge and sticks out past the studs. The thing I didn't like, was that a lot of the material I was paying for, got shaved off and put in the trash. It also is open cell and does not act as a moisture barrier, although it will stop air infiltration.

I also like the structural element to the ridig foam. It will dramatically stiffen the space and I can already tell a difference in the structure (my highly scientific, jumping up and down on the floor technique.) The studs are on 24 inch centers and I will have a bunch of weight up there, so helping where I can. The crew finished up late last night and cleaned everything up...my wife commented that this was the cleanest she has ever seen the shop.....

BTW, this is a 2 pound product, meaning that a square foot of it is 2 pounds. Compare that to the stuff in the can, which is about 1/2 pound per square foot (and lower R value).

Seth,

Wow!!! I would jump on an $800 offer right away...the base products are petroleum based, so raw material costs will go up with oil...I paid about 5.5 times what you did. I am also going to have them back out to do the attic space in the house. With the rising heating and cooling costs, I think it is the right thing to do.

Frank,

I will be covering the entire inside space with 5/8 fire rated drywall. This stuff needs to have a fire protectant applied to it or be covered with sheetrock. For the cost difference of $2 a sheet is not worth dealing with an insurance company and risk not being covered. Definately painted white.

Andy,

I heard the same thing from my guy. Basically stating that it is past the point of diminishing returns after about 4 inches (which would be about R-29 with no air or vapor infilltration. The said they did do 10 inches once for a medical plant that had to keep a room at -100 all the time...)

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Great looking shop starting up there! How are you going to run your wiring in the shop if all your walls are full? Are you planning on surface mount conduit or everything in the floor?

[Robert Tarr]

Jeff,

There is still enough room to run conduit or bx in the wall cavity (not required, could use romex), so I will probably do that for lighting etc. up high. I will also be putting in some knee walls for vertical wall space and I will most likely come through the floor behind those. Since I don't have my shop layout finished (I have reworked it at least a dozen times) I am doing surface mounted conduit, so I can change it quite easily.

More to come...

Robert

[Steve Clardy]

Looking good. Ought to be nice and cozy in there in the winter.
I like the christmas lights hanging on the joists. Lol

[Steve Stube]

Foams used for thermo insulating are rated for thermoconductivity or resistance to conducting for a given temperature difference across the thickness of the foam. To provide a measure by which the consumer could evaluate and compare products the "R" value scale was employed. No it wasn't only developed for you and me - the PR/sales folks need something to banty about too and beat up the competition over. I know this is loose language but I think I can be helpful overall, so bear with me. The "R" for a particular foam is very much dependent on average cell size, conductivity of the blowing agent, conductivity of the matrix material and the migration of the blowing agent and/or air thru the cell membrane. Yes, this is targetted at "closed cell foam" where the eventual migration of air into the cell displaces the particular blowing agent until partical pressures are satisfied for the system. Air is a better conductor than gaseous blowing agents, generally.

For the purpose of this thread we will say "R" = 7 per inch for the material. So if you have a spray up of 2" thickness the overall effective "R" will be 14, etc. I will say too that the thickness uniformity of this application would not be to my satisfaction though I'm sure it will be cosy, and sound deadening. Jim, (I'm sure you can handle this - no offence intended) you say;
This is the closed cell type and doesn't need to fill the bay to get maximum benefit.
This is not magic Jim, an 1/8" is not equivalent to a 1" fill, half fill is not the same as full cavity fill. If you are referring to maximum benefit as a measure of payback, then tell me please, which energy dollars are you using for your computation. Yesterdays headline was that Consumers Energy is forcasting a 71% hike in energy costs for the Midwest. All I'm saying is some see no need to insulate, some would be satisfied with perhaps an inch and still others might want to fill the existing cavity and apply one or two inches of rigid foam over that before applying the necessary fire rated material. My prediction of future energy costs would favor the high side as would my desire for comfort.

In a lab setting the researchers can experiment to determine "that" cell size for the best "R". Precise control over mix ratio and equipment for applying the material isn't as easy in the field. In the lab, if a test goes wrong the results aren't published - no such luxury in the field. Plus there are those that would take advantage of the customer and give a lot of fill (forgeting cell size in favor of saving material) - this has happened sometime with a greedy motive but sometimes due to poor training and equipment maintainence.
Oh, and about those foams that add rigidity to the structure, be carefull now. Picture in your mind the packing of the cells that might bring this about. That same packing can cause cells to coalesce (i.e., rupture, causing a thicker matrix which does conduct better than blowing agent or air) reducing the "R" value.

[Jim Becker]

No arguement from me, Steve. My very general statement that a full fill is not necessary to get the intended "R-Value" is not inaccurate in the context it was offered and yes, the skill of the person applying it to at least the minimum intended thickness is a big variable! Hopefully, for what this stuff costs, they will put in at least that minimum thickness that is being paid for... ;) The folks that Robert is using have a very good reputation in this area.

[Norman Hitt]

Hey Guys, Thanks to all of you that responded with all the Good Information, as it is an area that I had not researched yet. (It had only made it to my "To check out list" at this point).