XB-1060 laser engraver purchase - disapointing so far...

[Scott Cowell]

Hello all,
I have spent years wanting to purchase a laser engraver. I have spent months actively researching different models, manufacturers, capabilities, modifications and vendors. I have spent about a month actively shopping for an engraver and even decided to get a bigger, more powerful, and more expensive machine than I had originally intended. Being relatively handy, I decided on a cheaper Chinese/ebay laser.
Pros: cheaper(I can afford a larger work table and more powerful tube), having to assemble, clean, adjust, modify the laser etc will give me intimate knowledge of the machine.
Cons: anticipate poor after-the-sale service, NOT plug-and-play, Chenglish manuals, required to inspect every connection, nut and bolt etc., who knows what software

I found a newer model that appears to be a bigger version of the standard $1500 50w model common among hobby workers, the XB-1060. Bigger work table, 100w. Looks fun. Not much information or videos of this machine in action. Taking a bit of a risk there, but someone has to go first. This model was offered by Goldraydigital (aka: Goldray DIY Solutions) on Ebay as a pre-sell with a longer shipping time, or, for about $200 more in shipping, a unit shipped from San Francisco with a two week estimated delivery date. I opted to pay the additional shipping ($699) to get a unit shipped from San Francisco to me more promptly. First of all, I want to play with it, not wait for it. Second: I do not want to have to deal with customs, or try to arrange my own transportation from a seaport to my home. Third: You can only leave feedback on ebay, good or bad, within 60 days of purchase. Most if not all of that time would be spent waiting for the product to arrive if I ordered from overseas.

Since ordering this item on 5/3/16 I have eagerly been awaiting notification that the item has been shipped. So far all I have received is messages from Goldraydigital trying to get me to agree to wait for overseas shipment. -- very frustrating.
I will let you all know how this transaction turns out. Hopefully they will make good on the purchase as advertised.
Scott.

[Matt McCoy]

I would suspect that they don't have one already in SF or have oversold what they do have.

[Gary Hair]

"ebay laser" "disappointing" - Oh, wait, let me act surprised...

[Scott Cowell]

I would suspect that they don't have one already in SF or have oversold what they do have.

I would guess this as well. Although they STILL have at least one listing up that says 7 available in SF.
Scott

[Keith Winter]

Interesting choice considering you "spent months researching models, manufacturers, and capabilities." Maybe you should cancel the transaction and research more. It does not sound like the vendor you chose is trustworthy. If it starts with lies it won't end well.

[Kev Williams]

When I started posting on the forum a few years ago is when I learned about Chinese lasers. Never knew much about them. I'd considered getting a Full Spectrum because of the price, but decided to research. Thankfully. Here is where I learned the difference between RF and DC lasers, and why the cost difference...

Meanwhile, a poster here started a thread about the new Triumph he'd bought, went thru the whole spiel from talking to the factory to how it worked once he got it up and running. The ordeal, price, and watching it laser ceramic tile on a video convinced me to check into Triumph... As far as I know, he and I are the only Triumph owners on SMC, and I haven't seen him post for over a year.

Anyway- I did everything via email. Got a quote for what I wanted- which by the way was the most bare-bones machine possible, as this was mostly an experiment, and I wanted to pay cash. To my surprise, the quote I got for an 80 watt, 1300x900 machine, with stationary table, air assist pump, blower and a non-refer chiller: $2900. I actually asked if that was a mistake! I also ordered 2 spare mirrors and a spare lens.

The total price to my door, shipping, customs fees, duties, everything, was just shy of $4800.

These are pics of it- at the China factory, then in my garage, the day after Thanksgiving 2013. It's not small, I call it my 'dumpster'-- because it totally filled a 4 cubic yard box!

337029337030

Once I got it up and running I found the lower right side of the table was low. And that was it. All mirrors were perfectly aligned, and I only re-aligned them just last week. Only issue I've had is a problem with the X stepper motor, it's vibrating and sounding labored at certain speeds- might be the motor itself, or could be a controller issue. A new motor will cost me all of $100 shipped. The controller may have a loose wire, or need replaced, which isn't all that spendy either. A factory tech suggested checking belt tension and rail movement, everything is fine. As it is, as long as I avoid 450 to 550 mm/second speed, it works just fine.

Anyway- for the money I spent I couldn't be more pleased. I don't use it every day, but in the 29 months I've had it, I figure it's generated at least $20,000 worth of sales, probably closer to $30k... pretty good cost-to-return ratio. I've not needed much in the way of customer service, but whenever I email, I get a response as soon as Yolanda is at work. Other than the stepper issue, I had them make me some longer lens tubes that I needed. I received them quickly, and exactly as I wanted.

I'm mentioning all of this because Triumph is definitely another option for Chinese lasers, if you don't mind dealing direct.

I've been happy with them, and I'm about 1 week from buying a fiber laser from them...

[Scott Cowell]

It is official: Goldraydigital (aka Goldray DIY Solutions) on Ebay are fraudulently listing items they don't have to sell.

The product itself looks interesting, and I will check other vendors for this particular model, but Goldraydigital is lying when they say they have product in the U.S. and that they can ship this in two weeks. They jacked me around for days trying to get me to agree to additional and different terms than the original sale including waiting 40+ working days (can we say more than two months) for a listing that stated that the item was in SanFran and could be here by May 19th. (insert obscene references here). - The ONLY good news about this is that they did promptly refund my money. - However, since THEY cancelled the transaction ebay does not allow me to leave any feedback on this botched transaction by these dishonest sellers. So, I will warn as many people as possible using other means, like these forums.

To prevent claims of libel/slander: It is my opinion that:
-Goldraydigital is knowingly deceiving buyers by stating that they have product in stock - They don't.
-Goldraydigital is knowingly deceiving buyers by stating that they have product in San Francisco, USA. - They don't. Seven messages later I got them to admit this.
-Goldraydigital is knowingly deceiving buyers by stating that they can deliver a product in 1-2 weeks. Then they try to get you to agree to a two month wait.
-Goldraydigital is staffed by lying, cheating crooks who cannot be trusted.
-Goldraydigital still has deceptive listings up at this very moment.

I would love to post the e-mail exchanges and screen shots of this botched transaction somewhere, but don't really know if this is the right place or not.

[Scott Cowell]

Also learned from this experience: a "97.3" percent positive rating on ebay means nothing. I was waiting for the transaction to conclude to give ebay feedback. After all, how can I tell if an item was "as described" or arrived on time before I receive it. -- However, when the seller cancels the transaction no feedback can be left. They may have done this to scores of other buyers and we are all none the wiser.

One of the reasons I choose not to wait "40 working days" for shipment is that this too puts the original sale date a good 60 days before the arrival date. When the item arrives in whatever condition, good or bad, it is already too late to leave feedback.

Considering these are the two preferred methods of GoldrayDigital, I assume they do this on purpose to protect their "good rating".

[Keith Winter]

Glad you got your money back! Now don't turn around and buy another eBay laser. Buy one from a reputable manufacturer instead.

[Keith Downing]

Also learned from this experience: a "97.3" percent positive rating on ebay means nothing. I was waiting for the transaction to conclude to give ebay feedback. After all, how can I tell if an item was "as described" or arrived on time before I receive it. -- However, when the seller cancels the transaction no feedback can be left. They may have done this to scores of other buyers and we are all none the wiser.

One of the reasons I choose not to wait "40 working days" for shipment is that this too puts the original sale date a good 60 days before the arrival date. When the item arrives in whatever condition, good or bad, it is already too late to leave feedback.

Considering these are the two preferred methods of GoldrayDigital, I assume they do this on purpose to protect their "good rating".

This information sums it all up. I had always wondered how the ebay sellers CLEARLY not delivering quality products continued to have good ratings. I knew that a lot of the ratings were often for smaller items they sold, and also found out that a lot of the time it's showing ratings they received as a BUYER themselves; but what you discovered fills in the rest of the picture perfectly.

Thanks for posting your experiences. Like others here I can't recommend enough to go with a US reseller (boss or rabbit) if you're planning to buy a chinese laser.

Too much is left to chance shipping a 300-500 pound machine half way across the world without anyone ever testing it before it arrives at your doorstep. IMHO you have to have some experience importing to make that work out in your favor over the long run.

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

Report the seller to ebay. They are absolutely gaming the system. They likely won't act on your complaint alone as they issued a refund but if enough people do complain ebay will look into it.

In terms of import manufacturers, most of the machine, the core mechanics anyway, are from the same few factories. The trading companies or smaller distributors then buy base models and add the other features, controllers, tubes, software, etc. The markups for the US based distributors can be pretty significant. But depending on the company it can be a good value if you need US based support or would rather use the controller and software from the US company (someone like Rabbit or FSL).

Personally I wouldn't buy anything bigger than a K40 on ebay. You can get a good deal from a company in China from Tabao or Aliexpress that will provide after sale service. The lead times are longer but many over there speak English or you can use the translators in alichat. I do a fair amount of business over there, mostly Alibaba or direct with those I've met on Alibaba or Taobao and use WeChat or even Skype. There could be a learning curve with customs and shipping as well if you've never done it yourself. You can save some dough by going direct but you may have to work for it.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm familiar with the XB1060 machine

RUN !! quickly

It's an overgrown K40 with the same extrusions and likely the worst controller I have ever seen.

They are inaccurate piles of rubbish that are fitted into oversize cases to allow high power tubes to be fitted into a box they are entirely unsuitable for

and this is from a guy that actually loves Chinese lasers.

[Doug Hoffman]

Do not be mislead by ebay feedback numbers. Look at the items they have feedback on. Most of the time when
I check out a seller of a high dollar item, several thousand dollars, I find the feedback is from sub $10 items. It's
just a way to run up their feedback.

[Bill George]

Why is it, as many times as the cautions about eBay laser purchases here, the bulk of the "I need help with ...." posts involve eBay machines?

[Steve Morris]

Bill that will be largely to do with people looking at the ticket price rather than doing a bit of research. Given how easy it is to google info these days I am surprised it still happens but I guess it is in human nature to want a bargain :D

[Kev Williams]

Why is it, as many times as the cautions about eBay laser purchases here, the bulk of the "I need help with ...." posts involve eBay machines?
Because people want the toy first, THEN they search for help when the toy don't work ...

I would bet most people who actually read these pages first before buying a laser DON'T buy from ebay.

.... most people... ;)

FWIW-- these pages kept me from buying an FS laser...

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

Do not be mislead by ebay feedback numbers. Look at the items they have feedback on. Most of the time when
I check out a seller of a high dollar item, several thousand dollars, I find the feedback is from sub $10 items. It's
just a way to run up their feedback.

It's not an elaborate scheme to run up feedback numbers. I've sold several thousand items well into six figures total on ebay. Only about 1/3 of my customers leave feedback. There are tools where you can badger your buyers to leave feedback though I don't use those. Probably half or better of my transactions are with new or non regular ebay members who don't really know how to use their accounts. Rather than, or in addition to the feedback look at the star ratings. Even then it's a crap shoot in many cases where they don't have a great deal of feedback.



Bill that will be largely to do with people looking at the ticket price rather than doing a bit of research. Given how easy it is to google info these days I am surprised it still happens but I guess it is in human nature to want a bargain :D

Shoppers on ebay or Amazon are price driven. They either have limited funds or don't want to spend what is necessary for a capable tool. My flagship parts in the last several months has gone from complete kits to replacement parts for the import kits. They buy cheap then pay for it in the long run. I see this not only in 3D printers but lasers, particularly K40s but also in other tools including welders, mini lathes and the like. What many don't realize is these are machine tools, not appliances. While many have issues with quality, they don't have the mechanical aptitude or experience to use a tool like this and between the learning curve (even with the best of tools) and the quality of the equipment it amplifies the problem. In the case of woodworking we're talking about people that come from a saw/drill/router background and now they need to know a graphics program, understand how the mechanics of the machine work and get familiar with how different settings work on the machine and it's entirely new process that stumps many people.

[Doug Hoffman]

What I meant was there are so-called dealers of lasers, electronics, and even cars, that have never even sold 1 of the
high priced items they have listed. They sell cheap key chains, matchbox cars and such. They go on in their listings on
how they back their machines, but in several years have never sold a machine, through ebay anyway. There are tons
of these dealers. If you sell cheap items, and have good feedback numbers, that's fine. I still would not buy a several
thousand dollar item from an unknown seller with 100,000 positive feedbacks, and none over 10% of the price of the
item I am looking for.
By the way I have bought and sold on ebay since 1997. I have a 100% feedback with over 12500 sales. My items
range from $15 to $17000. I do research on anything I buy off of ebay. I check out the seller, as well as the product
they are selling. I hope my buyers will do the same! I stand behind my items, and often give free gifts that I don't
even mention in my listings.

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I agree but I wouldn't buy a several thousand dollar item from ebay. At all. I shy away from those trading houses in So Cal or the Bay area as well. They're basically digital swap meet dealers. There are electronic components dealers that are the same. My favorite purchases are higher end hand tools.

You can't fix stupid for some of those folks and buying on price alone, particularly without knowing much about the product from someone without a track record are going to get what they are going to get. Dealing direct is it's own can of worms but I've found most over there offer as good and in some cases better service than what I can get over here.

Getting on ebay in 97 is pretty impressive considering ebay didn't become ebay until late 97. I didn't get on until mid 99.

[Bill George]

I was buying and selling online before eBay. Places like Classifieds 2000, was that the name?

[Scott Cowell]

Glad to hear all of the input. -
Yes, I will admit I chose the ebay route because of the immediate gratification allure. Promises of 2 week delivery from a US warehouse (all lies). I also wanted some sort of middleman protection (ebay and paypal). This part worked somewhat, as I did get a refund promptly. That said, I am now looking at importing direct.

The upside is that it appears that I can either get a comparable machine (not the XB1060, thanks Dave) for less money, or get a bigger, meaner machine for the same money. I am leaning towards the latter, as I have already emotionally spent the money.

Now I am shopping for a 1390 sized, cabinet style machine. I too have noticed that MANY of the machined offered by different manufacturers seem to have the same cabinet in different colors, same control panel, and similar specs. I have been checking Alibaba, Aliexpress, and contacting companies directly. Will check into Tabao (thanks to the other Dave).

Honestly, this is for hobby use, not thriving business. Sure, I will want to peddle things to support the habit and make me feel as if the machine could pay for itself, but this will mainly be for fun. Building theater props, cosplay stuff for the daughters, holiday gifts and decorations, cool light fixtures, occasional edge-lit signs, tesselated tiles, etched mirrors and anything else that might please the Mama.

100w is probably plenty for me, but I have seen some 130w models cutting thin sheet metal. Cutting thicker materials and possibly cutting thin metal looks attractive and more versatile. But, I still want to cut paper (custom cards, decorations, etc). Any drawbacks to a more powerful tube?

For those that have such machines: any advice?
Scott.

[David Somers]

Hey Scott!!

Dave Sheldrake has tons of experience with these machines and can give you a bunch of information.

My experience is solely with my machine from the company in my signature. It is an 80 watt, 900x600 machine with a deep Z height. I am very pleased with it and the company I worked with. My sales person was Blanca Yan if you check them out. I chose 80 watt as being in the sweet spot between solid cutting capability and very good engraving capability. Higher power tubes tend to not be able to run at the lower powers used to engrave and cut fine materials. I chose the 900x600 size because of my space available. There was almost no price difference between 900x600 and the same power in a 1200x900 or even the next size up. But if I went up in size I was going to have to operate the laser while suspended from the ceiling ala Mission Impossible movies.

Anyway....have been happy with the unit I bought and the company I bought from and the sales person I worked with.

Having said that, don't forget about Rabbit Laser USA and perhaps Boss laser. Pretty much the same machines as the direct Chinese sales but they are here in the US and tend to be very responsive to customer needs. Especially Ray Scott and crew at Rabbit. I know less about Boss.

[Kev Williams]

a 1390 machine is huge- mine is 75" long, 58" deep, and 43" tall. Crated weight was 1118 pounds- thankfully it rolls easy!

It has an 80 watt RECI peak tested power was 110 watts. I read somewhere that RECI tests peak power at 32mV, which works but is way above normal operating range. It bothers me that some of these '60 watt' lasers sold on ebay, like one pictured by another poster a few days ago, showed a 60 watt peak rating right on the tube. That mean realistically, it's a 40 watt machine.

I chose 80 watts because most of my work is raster engraving, and I engrave black Romark at 13% power- much less than that and the laser won't fire consistently- or so I hear ;) -- I've run mine at 7% for long stretches and never noticed any misfires.

80 watts will melt glass, and it will discolor metal, but won't cut it.

For what it's worth, my Triumph is set up to run 2 tubes simultaneously. Of course this cuts the 1300 X range in half, but would still allow you to cut duplicate parts from 35 x 25" blanks. Another option with 2 tubes would be to run the second lens head right against the first, which would only cost about 150mm of X space- the idea here, and I've thought of doing this, is to add a 130w second tube, not to run simultaneously, but just to have the 2 power options. But since I don't do much cutting, I don't need 130 watts, and much of my work uses the whole table, so I'm fine as is... :)

[Jerome Stanek]

Remember to use a broker and there will be customs and other shipping from port to your place.

[Keith Winter]

Glad to hear all of the input. -
Yes, I will admit I chose the ebay route because of the immediate gratification allure. Promises of 2 week delivery from a US warehouse (all lies). I also wanted some sort of middleman protection (ebay and paypal). This part worked somewhat, as I did get a refund promptly. That said, I am now looking at importing direct.

The upside is that it appears that I can either get a comparable machine (not the XB1060, thanks Dave) for less money, or get a bigger, meaner machine for the same money. I am leaning towards the latter, as I have already emotionally spent the money.

Now I am shopping for a 1390 sized, cabinet style machine. I too have noticed that MANY of the machined offered by different manufacturers seem to have the same cabinet in different colors, same control panel, and similar specs. I have been checking Alibaba, Aliexpress, and contacting companies directly. Will check into Tabao (thanks to the other Dave).

Honestly, this is for hobby use, not thriving business. Sure, I will want to peddle things to support the habit and make me feel as if the machine could pay for itself, but this will mainly be for fun. Building theater props, cosplay stuff for the daughters, holiday gifts and decorations, cool light fixtures, occasional edge-lit signs, tesselated tiles, etched mirrors and anything else that might please the Mama.

100w is probably plenty for me, but I have seen some 130w models cutting thin sheet metal. Cutting thicker materials and possibly cutting thin metal looks attractive and more versatile. But, I still want to cut paper (custom cards, decorations, etc). Any drawbacks to a more powerful tube?

For those that have such machines: any advice?
Scott.

Cannot cut metal w 130w wo oxygen assist.

I would STRONGLY suggest you read all of the forum posts you can before buying anything. You comment about cutting sheet metal combined with your initial decision leads me to believe you've read some but not nearly enough to make a fully educated decision. Educate yourself by reading before buying.

You escaped a bad decision once.... If you direct import there will be no second escape if you fail to research and get something that doesn't fit your needs.

[Scott Cowell]

I know it has been said before, but you guys are great. It is nice to get encouragement and advice as well as the gentle scolding when needed.

As for cutting metals, it sounds like a neat option, but oxygen assist (though not scary) is more than I want to play with as a newbie. I anticipate enough of a learning curve and tinkering time. This was not in my original wish list anyhow.

I still like the idea of a larger work table; so much more potential. But so much more footprint! Don't want others to think I am compensating for anything... I easily have a 45" doorway to my basement workspace that can be significantly enlarged and repaired with a little carpentry (they used to park an ambulance in my basement) - and recently cleared enough space for a "dumpster" as Kev calls it. (Kev, it warms my heart to see others with tight, cluttered workspaces).

As for tube power, if I do opt for a 100w or 130w, will a faster travel/engraving/cutting speed help with engraving or cutting delicate items without scorching? Logic says it would help. What does experience say?

Scott

[Bill George]

Like someone else said, reading is a lot faster than asking questions and waiting for an answer. The Chinese machines have limitations on speed. When you get into the higher dollar lasers or especially the Trotec machines increased power helps allows them run faster. Only if your doing a lot of engraving does that speed help. Cutting is slower no matter what the machine.
You sure don't need a $35000 machine for hobby use or one with a 100 watts of power.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Oxygen assist + Imported Chinese machine = BOMB

[David Somers]

Scott,

You have mentioned this being for hobby use? Can you give us a better idea what that is? That might help us figure out what power level might be best for you.

In the meantime.....I may be closer to a hobby user than many of us here with larger Chinese machines. I am primarily a woodturner. I retired a bit over a year ago. Eventually I would like to sell work at craft fairs and art shows and galleries and shops, maybe Etsy or something similar. A hobby business if you will. After a lot of years of working I have a reasonable annuity so I am not looking to support myself solely with the lathe or laser or CNC. But I am looking for challenges, learning, a chance to be creative in varying degrees, and offset the costs of that with the machines.

Since buying the laser and CNC I have been learning and playing, and now am developing a pile of cutting and engraving and Gcode files of things I would like to do more of later on. Building my digital stock if you will.

I chose my laser, an 80 watt 900x600 because 80 watt was the apparent sweet spot between cutting and engraving on a Chinese machine. I chose the EFR laser tube at the advice of Dave Sheldrake based on a number of quality reasons. I chose 900x600 because of size limitations in my shop. There was little difference in cost to go up to 1200x900 other than it was a honking big machine. I chose this particular machine after a lot of digging and asking questions, taking about a year of pestering everyone on this Forum and elsewhere as I learned. (and I am incredibly grateful to everyone here as I have said before <big grateful grin!!!!>) I also chose this particular machine because I could get it with a deep Z height which allowed me to work on deep items. I got a 50mm and a 127mm lens and enough spare parts to hold me till I am 112. I would have loved to have a Trotec or Epi or ULS machine, or a Rabbit USA machine, but costs put those beyond what I felt I could put into this type of use. I like my laser and the CNC, both bought from the same company and sales person. I could not have asked for more from either. Though keep in mind I am a very patient and tolerant person. <grin> I probably could have bought a K40 POS and made it through that without many murderous impulses.

I use the laser to adorn my bowls and platters. I use it for inlay and cutouts. I use it to cut bric a brac which will sell alongside my more expensive bowls and platters because we all know the higher dollar things dont normally sell enough to pay for a booth. The small less expensive stuff is what pays for the booth for the most part. Selling larger or more expensive one off items is a bonus. So the laser and the CNC tend to fill in on the small stuff and to adorn special bowls. And as befits a hobby machine....there is an endless supply of little jobs friends and folks I volunteer with would like done. So far I have had fun building up my digital stock and playing and testing things and designing what I may eventually sell. If nothing else it has kept me off the streets, for which the people of West Seattle have expressed gratitude. Or at least they should.

For materials....I will try anything but PVC. And I have yet to use it for laser tattoo removal. Otherwise I have used it to cut and engrave woods and veneers, acrylic, leather, and paper mostly. I have started playing to see what I can do with stone. I helped a neighbor who is a backyard mechanic do up some gaskets for engines he was working on. I helped friends getting married or celebrating fun events do up cards and other celebratory "stuff." I played with making toys for relative's kids. Stuff like that. I would like to play with all wood clocks and automata. Perhaps this winter when the rains begin again.

So......how does that compare with what you are thinking of? Help us out and we can give you better info on what power level you might find serves you best.

Dave

[David Somers]

Mr Sheldrake....

Somehow your BOMB statement above and your signature line go together beautifully!!!! Grin!

[Scott Cowell]

Dave,
Your hobby use is right up my alley. I imagine building one-off clocks in 1/4" ply or mdf. Cutting parts for the daughters comicon costumes out of foam, cloth and thin wood. I am involved with the local community theater and build sets and props. Making board games, puzzles and kids toys. I would like to play with Escher-like tesselated tiles for counters or maybe the bathroom floor. Youtube shows a guy building Escher-like chessboards that are inspiring. Kinetic sculptures with wooden gears and marble runs look like fun. I imagine using the laser cutter and thin hardboard or MDF to make router templates. My youngest daughter will eventually want a spectacular dollhouse. Did I mention I have SEVEN wonderful children to please? We are a crafty family and already focus on handmade gifts when Christmas and birthdays come around, not to mention all the handmade decorations. I forsee building custom shaped chalkboards, linoleum block printing, stencils, felt boards and so on.

I realize and acknowledge that most of this could be done on a smaller, low power laser, and quite frankly, if I purchased one of the $500 POS tiny machines, I would still have lots of fun. But when you couple ADD and a creative bent, I want to have the versatility. Who knows what my twisted little mind will come up with. I like to have the "can do" attitude coupled with the "I don't know, let's try it" philosophy. I also want to inspire these traits in my children. This is reflected in my hoard of tools and toys. I saw some neat projects with vacuum forming, so I built a small vacuum table, some frames, ordered some sheet plastics and gave it a try. Moderate success. Lots of fun. And I still have that homemade vacuum table available for use. - Glass blowing looked like fun, so I got some glass rods, grabbed my plumbers torch, made up some mandrels and started making glass beads. Just for fun. Still have all that stuff and I pull it out once in a while. The last play I worked on needed to have a telephone that had a scream for a ringtone, and that scream needed to stop when the phone was picked up: Grab the box with the soldering stuff, the box of electronic gizmos and away I went (worked great). Same play: built a lamp out of an old railway switching relay that weighed about 30lbs which I salvaged from the local dump. Just tonight a guy told me that he really wanted that lamp. When the store bought baby gate was not effective keeping the great dane puppy and the toddler out of the kitchen I decided to build a Dutch door instead. Craftsman style to match the house. What an opportunity to purchase a biscuit joiner. Worked great. CNC router? Picked one up a couple of years ago, made some custom cribbage boards which were given to the local pub, custom power distribution pack built into an old briefcase and other little projects. Black and white photography; done that. Juggling; check. Kites? Made hundreds, sold none. I could go on and on. The point being: I like to make stuff. I like to create. I like to inspire. I enjoy the process as much if not more than the finished product. The right tool makes this even more fun, although I do appreciate making do with what you have. I appreciate a sharp chisel or a spoke shave as much as my cnc router.

The accuracy, repeatability and versatility of CNC is what excites me. A laser cutter/engraver will not be "the new tool", it will be another tool. And for me this will also be my new toy and I WILL use it for my own entertainment, just as I entertain myself with chisels and routers. I never imagined my oscillating spindle sander would get so much use. Did I need a spindle sander? No. Do I enjoy using it? Absolutely. I use it all the time for all sorts of things I never imagined. I am hoping the laser machine will be just as fun and just as versatile.

Do I need a big work table? Probably not. Like I said, a smaller machine would be lots of fun. But I would hate to spend the cash and the wait and later come up with a project that doesn't fit on the smaller table. As mentioned by others, the price point between sizes is similar, and I am lucky enough to have the space (meaning that my basement workshop will be no more cluttered than it is now). As for power: I would like to be able to cut thicker materials whilst still being able to cut paper or cardstock. This is likely the sticky balance point. 80W seems to be a popular sweet spot, and this also seems to be readily available on standard models available. But, would it hurt to get a 100w machine? 130w? Too much?

I am aiming to spend less than 5K, and so far the wife is supportive. I am totally willing and excited to tinker with it to get it up to good working condition.

Couldn't this machine be my little mid-life crisis? Couldn't this be my little red sports car?

Scott

[Wilbur Harris]

This turns out to be fairly simple. Measure the space available (consider exhaust), and talk to the sales folks at Shenhui, Gweike, etc.... Get the largest machine you have space for, 60/80 watts, with an electric/movable bed. Do a little research and have a company that knows what to do handle the shipment for you. You may consider how you're gonna get the darn thing from the crate to where it goes. I didn't do that and it almost cost me a bunch.

If you've got enough money...buy a Trotec.

[Scott Cowell]

Wilbur,
As it turns out, I have a strapping teenage boy with lots of moose-sized friends. The move might cost me a couple of pizzas and some soda. - Humor aside, sheer size and weight has also been a consideration. I am not and have never been called "stocky" - scrawny, perhaps. During my bachelor days I have lifted and moved all sorts of things by myself that I had no business lifting and moving. Now that I am creeping up on 50 I am a lot more protective of my back and limbs. I am assuming that heavy duty wheeled dollies, straps and multiple bodies will be involved.

[David Somers]

Good Morning Scott!

Sounds like you are person after my own heart in terms of what you enjoy doing. I like to play and learn about things and will also learn how to do something for the joy of learning it when I have no real need to know. I just like to know.

Anyway.....I think with what you are describing an 80 Watt tube might be best. Perhaps some of the other generalists can pipe in as well. At 80 Watts you can still reduce the power level and up the speed to get very good delicate and controllable engraving, while still having the power to be able to cut through anything you have described at a good clip. Check with Dalton Sheldrake on the forum as well and ask if he still feels the same way about power and about choosing between an EFR tube and a Reci tube. (they are brands, not types of tubes) And perhaps he can suggest a model to shoot for. I did not pay a penny more when I asked for the EFR tube so it should have little to no difference in your cost.

Direct from China, You will be well under $5000 for your machine, even at the larger bed size, including Customs and Shipping unless prices have changed drastically in the last year. For my 900x600 80 watt machine I paid about $3600 USD including tons of spare chains and belts and mirrors and whatnot, though I did not ask for a spare tube. Also a blower, CW5000 chiller, air assist pump, a deep Z height capability, etc, two focal length lenses with a dedicated tube for each, and spare lenses of each. And the $3600 include Shipping FOB from the factory to the port of Shanghai where I became responsible for shipping with the help of my broker in Seattle. Ocean Shipping to Seattle ran about $300 from Shanghai, transport from the port to my house was about $150. And the total bill for shipping from Shanghai (the rest of the charge was all US Customs charges of various amounts) came to a total of about $1000. The shipping, transport and Customs charges all included the CNC as well BTW. So you should easily be able to keep things under $5000 including delivery and Customs, even if you wanted the larger bed than I got.

One thing with the larger bed. I have been told, and a bit of digging seems to confirm, that at least in our area (Seattle) resale on this type of machine is a bit better if it is the 4 foot x 3 foot bed as opposed to my 3ft x 2ft (900 x 600mm). Not hugely better, but enough that for the small extra cost I would have done the larger bed if space was not a concern for me. I have easy access to the garage to get the unit inside by myself so that was not the issue for me that it will be for you.

If you do not need a machine with the kind of deep Z height I have you can probably make arrangements for one that will break into two pieces to make getting it into a below house basement with stairs easier. Ray Scott at Rabbit USA gets that type of machine in for just this situation. The difference is the construction of the case and the location of the table motor and chain drive. The lower part is basically a detachable base with nothing in it, while all the guts are contained in the upper case.

Also, depending on what you are looking for in size, ask for pass through doors on the laser, front and rear. On my machine, with a 3 foot wide table, I can run anything through it as long as the material is under 3foot wide. I simply go in roughly 2 foot increments....cut or engrave, and then slide it forward using some registration marks to maintain alignment. That might make a difference to you in terms of how big a machine you actually want or need. The pass through doors on my machine are about 3" tall. But if you needed something taller you should be able to ask for it.

And please please dont consider a K40 style machine. From what I see on other forums they are garbage overall. A few work fine, but the bulk are a big hassle.

Hope that helps!

Dave

[Bill George]

I don't think he will find a decent 80 watt machine for $5K or under today. I can testify all those stupid things you did when younger, come back to haunt you when you get age 60 and over.:(

[Keith Winter]

Agreed Bill. I think he's going to be closer to $7.5k on a very small machine or $10k on a mid-large machine 80w all in, including electrical and shipping, customs, and cost of installation.

OP you can of coarse do it for less, but china's NOT like the USA. When you think you're getting a "deal" that's chinese for we took out stuff that you really need to make it fit your budget. Those guys in China can cut more corners than you can dream of.

[Scott Cowell]

David,

Thanks for the encouragement and sage advice. Pass through doors, an adequate chiller and a deep Z are on my must have list. A motorized "up/down table" as they say is nearly a must have, but probably not a deal breaker if everything else is right. - A rotary is on the wish list and I imagine this will be cheaper if in "the package" than if purchased later.

I understand that the big, honkin' external fans that come with many of these are loud and actually eat more power than the rest of the pieces combined. Since I have a couple of blowers lying around already, maybe they will swap a rotary for this. Never hurts to ask.

I am past any consideration of a k40 style machine. Although this whole adventure started with considering purchasing one of those $1500 chinese 50w Ebay machines, knowing that it was actually around 35w and needed a thorough overhaul and around $600 worth of modifications to make it a usable machine. Kinda like the guy who buys an old yard sale mini bike and brings it back to life. Again, the process would have been fun as well as frustrating and the adventure would be in seeing how clever I could be solving some of the routine problems inherent in that machine. I still love to check in on RDWorks Learning Lab on youtube. - Heck, I jumped right past the cheap 40w just to avoid MoshiDraw.

And, if you were pleased with your import broker could you give me his contact info? I'm in Raymond, WA - not that much farther when coming from China...

Scott.

[Scott Cowell]

One more thought: What are the opinions of 110v vs. 220v. machines? I had already planned get a 220v outlet wired in for a different piece of equipment, so this is not an obstacle for me.

Scott.

[David Somers]

Scott,

Here is the info on my importer. Janiece was the person I worked with, but they have a number of people in the office and they all seemed good. If they want to use my information to help with your purchase that might help them out since the machines will be nearly identical except perhaps for size.
Janiece Guinn
Ocean Import Manager
Airport Brokers Corporation
17730 Ambaum BLVD S.
Seattle, WA. 98148
Tel:(206) 246-6580 | Fax (206) 242-7410
janiece@airportbrokers.com | www.airportbrokers.com (http://www.airportbrokers.com/)

Then, on your question about 110V versus 220. I prefer 220V for stuff like this. One thing to remember is that in China their native power at the wall is 220. (but if you looked at their wall plugs they would either resemble the various flavors of 110 we use here or be the two prong round pin type of plug which is confusing. They often have no ground). If you buy 110 from them what they usually do is provide a 110 to 220V transformer so why not just go direct to 220. Also, because their native power is 220 they have no restrictions about a 220 circuit having to be dedicated to one device. They hang a gazillion things off their 220 volt outlets like we tend to do on 110. Here we are supposed to have a dedicated circuit for each 220V device. If you bought the full kit from China you will likely end up with a 220V laser that has its own power cord and it will likely look like our 3 prong 110V plugs on the wall end and the type of plug we use on computer power supplies for the other. Plus it will have a second 220V plug to the wall that is used for the various things they hang on the laser. And they also tend to split the laser between the tube and its controller on one 220V outlet, and the table and other connected devices on the other 220V outlets. So at minimum you will need two 220V circuits. Since I was running my own wire I figured just pull a dedicated circuit for each device. It is as easy to pull a bundle of romex as it is to pull one or two. So I have dedicated circuits for....my laser, its secondary 220V plug, the blower they provided which is 220, and the CW5000 Chiller which was also 220V. And my CNC. And my wood lathe. Fortunately I had plenty of room in my circuit panel. I use the plugs they provide on the laser to support the water pump and the air pump, which are also each 220. I figure they draw relatively little even on startup so plugging them into the secondary connections on the laser was fine. Also, be sure they provide you with connections on all these devices that match what they will plug into. If you will do your own dedicated 220V circuits for the laser and its secondary and the blower you have control over the plugs and can swap them out so they meet our code. But.....the plugs on the back of my laser that were designed for their other devices like the air and water pump were those odd little 2 prong round pin plugs. And there are two types of those in the world and they are hard to tell apart by sight. So make sure they have the correct plugs on them to fit into the laser if that is where you intend to power them from. You mentioned having some extra blowers so I am sure they will be happy to drop the blower from the order. At least with the company I worked with they were very accomodating. BTW. The rotary ran me $165. It weighs a ton so including it in your crate will save some shipping. Your shipping charges are based more on volume than weight so toss everything into the crate you can in this one order. I don't see the blower price listed separately. Hard to believe it is much money though.

And, in the interest of extreme overkill my garage and house are on a whole house surge surppressor. AND, I have a 220V voltage regulator that covers my laser and CNC. OK everyone....you can guffaw now! :p

It will come with a 50mm lens and tube. Be sure to order at least one extra 50mm lens, they are cheap, plus any other lenses you want. A lens tube is about $35 so if you order additional size lenses you might splurge and order a dedicated tube for each. That way you dont have to disassemble the lens tube any time you want to change. For the most part I only use the 50mm. But it seems like when I do use one of the other size lenses suddenly I find all sorts of uses for them and swap alot for a short while. Then it stops and I am back to the 50mm for a long while. Also order an extra mirror set. Spare belts are cheap. Pack them airtight once you get them. And that EFR 80 watt tube wont cost you any more than a RECI tube. Just ask folks here what the best EFR 80 watt model is currently. I know Dave Sheldrake keeps close tabs on them.

I will PM you my contact info if you have any questions.

And by all means everyone else....dont let my babbling at Scott stop you from saying stuff. This is all just based on my experiences and he will benefit from everyone's thoughts!

Dave

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

The 220 volt power used in other parts of the world is wired differently than here in the US. As Dave says, it will work in the US. In basic terms we use a 4 wire 220 over here (2 hots, neutral and safety ground) and in other parts of the world it's a 3 wire 220 (1 hot, neutral and ground though in many places there is no safety ground). Most of the laser psu I've shopped operate dual voltage. The original that was in my FSL was auto sensing and the spare I bought after I had to replace the over current limiter in the original is as well. The motor and electronic supplies are switchable 120/240. I run the machine on a dedicated 20 amp, with the machine, chiller, small compressor and exhaust if I fire up a heat gun or shop vac on the same circuit it will trip. I've got 100 amp 220 in the shop for the 60 gal compressor and welding/plasma area to use. If you've got shop air you can use that if you dry or at least filter it. I didn't want to run another drop to that corner of the shop so I'm using the small compressor going on two years now.

You'll be able to import a capable machine for around US$5k all in, perhaps a bit more. Make sure you use a known quantity on the other side. These are the same people that Rabbit or FSL import from and with a bit of guidance you'll be OK. That said, I spent the extra money and went with FSL mostly because they were here in town and I could pick it up in a few days. I paid about US$10k for an 80 watt 24x18. I wanted local support and parts though the parts are a gouge and the same from Shenzhen are about 20% of the price. The biggest thing for me was the software and controller. I'm not fond of most of the import packages. I came from primarily ULS but with some Epilog and Trotec and Retina Engrave seemed like a good compromise.

[Scott Cowell]

I can appreciate the quality and service of Snap-on Tools and their roaming customer service trucks. I don't use any of my tools enough to warrant Snap-on. When I buy a tool from Harbor Freight, I have a different level of expectations. And if it is important I do a little research, checking reviews before buying from Harbor Freight. -- I appreciate the quality and service of US made lasers, and I try to spend my money locally as much as possible. For my intended use I can't justify the cost. But I still want to play, so, Chinese laser it is. Expectations adjusted.

When I was young and single I sought adventure. Now that I have a wife, kids and house payments; I seek "uneventful". - That is why I am here and why I appreciate all of the advice.

I had planned a new 220 circuit and a new 110 circuit to that corner of the basement already. Maybe I will double that. I have lots of space on the panel. Easier and cheaper to do it all at once. I don't tend to use many tools or appliances at once. Most of my woodworking is: pull out and set up the tool, plug it in, use it, put it away so I can grab the next tool, repeat. I do lots of plugging/unplugging. I even unplug my table saw, drill press, tiny bandsaw etc when not in use even though they stay in place - due to our rural, occasionally dodgy power. Lights sometimes flicker during storms around here, and I fear brown-outs more than spikes. I had a drill press whose motor got fried when not in use several years back. Now I unplug. - Whatever the voltage of system that arrives, I will likely unplug the package when not in use.

Thanks for the broker information. That puts me miles ahead in that department. My wife still likes the idea of renting a U-haul and picking it up at the port/airport. I like the idea of it being delivered to the garage door. I have shown pictures, but I don't think she realizes how bloody big and heavy this crate might be. I do lots of stuff myself. There are times when I am happy to pay someone else to do things for me, especially if THAT is what they do routinely. And really, outside of having a few great stories, how much personal enrichment am I going to get out of fighting with Customs and pulling a rented trailer? I like the Broker idea.

Scott.

[David Somers]

Scott,

If you do end up renting a truck to haul it look for a liftgate with the weight capacity for that puppy. It is going to be very heavy. The port should be able to forklift it onto the truck for you. But a lift gate will make life much easier back at your house.
Also....if you look back through the forum a few years you will find some posts from someone who got a big honking Chinese laser in and then was delayed getting it into his workshop. It ended up being out in the rain for quite a while till he was finished with the work inside that was needed to accomodate it. No harm done to the unit. It will be wrapped in plastic inside the crater and is pretty safe from weather for a while. If you have to roll it a long way you can always ask for bigger casters. Easy enough for them to do it as the machine is assembled.

I certainly agree with you about the Chinese machines. While I would have loved having a Trotec or an Epi or a ULS there was no way I could justify that kind of money for my uses. And the US companies that provide carefully checked Chinese Lasers like Rabbit Laser USA are superb in what they provide both for the machine and the service, but again the cost there was just way too high compared to the direct from China approach. And I was very careful to vet the company and salesperson I worked with, and made sure I was in no rush and could handle delays and issues without harm. And for that I got a solid machine for a good price that is doing what I ask of it and is working well within my expectations. If I were a production shop it would be another story. But for my uses I now have a solid machine at a cost I could handle and justify to my wife.

If you are running 220, consider running an extra beyond what you need. As you said, it costs less to do it in one effort than doing it as repeated trips and then you are set for growth later on if needed. In my office our folks in charge of designing and speccing building remodels ALWAYS under specced electric outlets and network connections. It was a constant battle. And in every case we were able to show them how the "extra service points" we were asking for but didnt get ended up being provided llater through an outside contract at great cost, where it would have cost of fraction to provide it when the walls were open and running that stuff is easy. Drove me crazy. So I tend to load up on circuits and wiring when I am doing it. Just a thought. I did my own 220 work so it was easy for me to pull whatever I wanted. Not quite as simple when you are paying a licensed electrician to do it by the hour. (one thought....any way your electrician would let you run the actual wire and he terminates it for you? Would save you paying him for crawling about under the house yanking cable. And.....any thought given to pulling some Cat 5 or 6 or better wire for direct ethernet into the garage while you are hauling wire around?)

[Kev Williams]

My machine is 220v, but for the first few months I ran it from a 110-220v transformer. It lost a relay and quit working so I just wired up a double 220 outlet and everything's worked great ever since. The machine has 3 of it's own extension outlets, so all the accessories just plug into the machine, only one 220 circuit needed.

[Scott Cowell]

David,

Luckily, I am not afraid of pulling wires, and though I am not afraid of the breaker box, my comfort level decreases dramatically once I have to pull that cover. I spent a few seasons remodeling homes long ago and we occasionally did our own wiring. But I will happily pay the expert, small business guy to do the final terminations (and check my work). - Also in my favor is that the basement is unfinished and I plan to surface mount some steel boxes onto a big stout beam. I already have most of the supplies. Now I will just do a couple more dedicated circuits.

I think I have narrowed down my wish list:
1390 cabinet style 80w cutter/engraver
blade style workbed
additional honeycomb
motorized up/down Z
pass through doors
air assist
water chiller
rotary attachment
extra set of mirrors
extra 38mm/1.5" lens and tube/holder
and, if the budget allows, a spare tube.

Have I missed anything? I figure this could keep me entertained for the next year or so.

Oh, yeah. Bigger casters. Great idea!

[Bert Kemp]

I would not get a spare tube, tubes are warranted from the date of maufacture and they also tend to lose gas while sitting on a shelve. So if your spare tube sits in your basement for 2 years before you need it , its already out of warranty and could be dead on the shelve to boot.:D

David,

Luckily, I am not afraid of pulling wires, and though I am not afraid of the breaker box, my comfort level decreases dramatically once I have to pull that cover. I spent a few seasons remodeling homes long ago and we occasionally did our own wiring. But I will happily pay the expert, small business guy to do the final terminations (and check my work). - Also in my favor is that the basement is unfinished and I plan to surface mount some steel boxes onto a big stout beam. I already have most of the supplies. Now I will just do a couple more dedicated circuits.

I think I have narrowed down my wish list:
1390 cabinet style 80w cutter/engraver
blade style workbed
additional honeycomb
motorized up/down Z
pass through doors
air assist
water chiller
rotary attachment
extra set of mirrors
extra 38mm/1.5" lens and tube/holder
and, if the budget allows, a spare tube.

Have I missed anything? I figure this could keep me entertained for the next year or so.

Oh, yeah. Bigger casters. Great idea!

[David Somers]

Scott, Bert is right. When I referred to an extra tube in my list I was referring to a lens tube, not the laser tube. Lens tube is only about $30. The reason I got it was so when I go to switch lenses I dont have to pull off the one lens tube and dissemble it and put the other in place. I just swap tubes which are ready to go with the appropriate lens already in, clean, and ready to rumble. Worth it? For $30 why not.

[Scott Cowell]

An extra lens tube makes sense, just as you explained. - I had noticed that tubes cost as much to ship as to purchase, but I had not considered the warranty issue. The tube should last a while as advertised, and I don't intend to overdrive it at all. That just saved me some money. -

Has anybody done any modifications that they are proud of or found useful? I intend on adding an ammeter if not already installed. I have some LED strip lighting sitting on the shelf that may go nicely inside the cabinet. Maybe a digital thermometer on the in and outflow of the water circuit for curiosity sake. Maybe a beer holder. I would hate to spill my beer on my laser :).

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I wouldn't buy a spare tube right away either. My FSL had a 90 day on the tube, period. There was a 1 year limited on all non consumables. You can get them quick, a few days from Shanghai or Shenzhen once they get them to the freight forwarder.

I wouldn't get a spare honeycomb either. We've cut several thousand square feet of melamine over the last couple of years. The melted melamine can clog the honeycomb. I clean it with Crudthug rotary wire wheel and MEK. The honeycomb is something that you can also get pretty easily.

[David Somers]

Scott,

I added an Ammeter to mine. Cheap and more convenient than using a multimeter.
I also added LED lighting inside my case. There was a Flourescent in there that was adequate, but I like much brighter lighting so I added a strip on the front of the inside of the lid, and also 2 shorter strips along the sides of the lid. Like everything I do, overkill. But it keeps me off the streets!
I wouldnt buy a spare honeycomb either. I clean mine....gawd help me, with "LA's Totally Awesome All purpose Concentrated Cleaner" AS SEEN ON TV!!!! Yes indeed. Didnt come with Ginzu knives though. Sigh. A mechanic friend suggested it as being reasonably safe to use and effective. I go it from the Dollar Tree store near me. I think any of the Dollar store clones carry it. I run it through a power sprayer and stuff melts off the steel honeycomb. Or a simple round bottle brush would work fine too.
If you get a CW5000 chiller you wont need a thermometer. It has one built in. I think a CW3000 (which is not an active chiller BTW) does as well though I am not sure.

My Honeycomb sat free on the top of the table frame. That drove me nuts. First the honeycomb was not square. And it was too easily jostled. Mine is a steel honeycomb which is nice because I can use Magnets to hold things down BTW.
So...I took the time to remove the honeycomb and put in the aluminum knife edge slats that are the alternate table. I worked my way around the whole table making sure that each aluminum slat was the same distance from the gantry so that the plane of the knife edge was parallel to the plane of the lens on the gantry. Once I confirmed it was spot on I loktited the adjusting screws for the slats so they couldnt wander with vibration. Then I put the honeycomb on top of that, got it as square to the XY axis as I could given the honeycomb was a bit cattywumpus itself, and drilled holes in each side of the honeycomb frame that went down into the table frame itself. I threaded the holes in the table frame so I could basically bolt the honeycomb into frame. Now it can't wander about and I had a fixed surface to work with but it was easily removable and also easily put back on exactly where it came from.

Then I found some inexpensive stainless steel rulers (any thin metal straight edge would work....these were cheap and neat looking) and I attached them to the honeycomb on the rear edge and on both side edges so they were in line with the X and Y axis of the laser. Now I had two corners that were known locations that were in my laser as fixed origin points, and I had edge guides that were squared to the gantry so now my anal retentive needs were pretty much satisfied.

I mentioned magnets I use with my steel honeycomb? I use some N52 rectangular magnets sized 1/2" x 1/2 x 1" long. Those have something like 38 lbs of force to them and easily hold sheet stock like veneer and ply down on the bed, even when it is warped. I got them from KJMagnetics.com. Part number BX088-N52. thin heavy bars of some sort will also work fine. But I like the firm hold of the magnets. These are thin enough that they are easily cleared by my 50mm lens. I have a slug of magnets I use for all kinds of purposes so this was a natural for me. BTW. I think you mentioned you are a Dad? I also assume you have pets? If you use nedymium magnets keep them under your control. They are very dangerous if swallowed by little kids or pets. A pair of them swallowed separately can end up near enough in the intestine that they snap together, even through the walls of adjacent parts of the intestine. If that happens you can develop gangrene due to tissue dieing under the pressure, or many other types of gastric problems. It is difficult for a Dr to diagnose, and likely only fixable through invasive surgery. Not good. They also tend to snap together vary forcefully and can fracture, causing injuries, or damage tissue if little fingers get caught between two snappy magnets. They are wonderful tools, but take care with them. (OK....off the safety soapbox!!! <grin>)

Another change I made was to move and replace my table motor's toggle switch. It was located low and on the right edge of the laser case towards the front. It was OK, but awkward to use and still be able to see what the table was using. The switch was a 3 position toggle with fixed positions. If your hand slipped off the switch it kept running in whatever direction it was going. I moved that to the front face of the lasers case and up higher where it was easy to use and see what the table was doing. And I replaced the switch with a spring loaded 3 position toggle so it returns to the center/off position if you release it. That has been a small but very nice change.

The next thing I might do is follow someone else's lead and add a little Raspberry Pi run camera to the laser, mounted under the table. That way I can see flames developing under there when cutting. Scott Shepherd was the one who first wrote about this on the forum. He has a large production shop and has had a few lasers toasted due to inattention on the part of his staff. Also due to an inability to see flames under the table develop until they were severe enough to be difficult to deal with and require an extinguisher instead of just a water spritzer. A current Raspberry Pi is only about $60. An HDMI camera for it is not much more. And a used HDMI monitor/TV from Craig's list or some other source would also be relatively little but give you constant monitoring of the underside of the laser. I haven't done this yet, but it is on my list for serious pondering.

Hope that helps!! A beer holder huh?? Hmmmmmm!

Dave

[Bill Carruthers]

Has anybody done any modifications that they are proud of or found useful? I intend on adding an ammeter if not already installed. I have some LED strip lighting sitting on the shelf that may go nicely inside the cabinet. Maybe a digital thermometer on the in and outflow of the water circuit for curiosity sake. Maybe a beer holder. I would hate to spill my beer on my laser :).[/QUOTE]
Hi Scott - Like David and I imagine quite a few others, I added LED lighting - but rather than mount it on the lid or elsewhere I stuck it to the bottom of the gantry rail where it brilliantly illuminates whatever I am actually working on - I intend to wire it in more properly (eventually) but for now it works just having a 12 volt supply with the feed wire running in the gap between the frame and the honeycomb table.
.337447337448337449

[David Somers]

That is a nice idea Bill. I do like having the better overall lighting in the entire cutting area, but I might look at adding a strip like you did.

Thanks for the idea!!!

[Scott Cowell]

We all need to get off our soapbox once in a while, but never be hesitant to get on it.

I should clarify that my intention is to get a blade table and a honeycomb platform, not really a spare honeycomb. If one or the other, it will be the blade table to support the weight of whatever project I may be working on. Whether the honeycomb sits on top of this or in place of it when needed probably won't make much difference to me. I imagine most hobby users tend to figure out which they prefer and use that one most, but I do want the option. I figure I could cobble an equivalent of either of these if I had to, but some Chinese engineer has already designed and tested one that will fit my future machine, so I might as well have them throw that in the crate as well.

Magnets? I love magnets. I love neodymium magnets. And, yes, lots of care and precaution is warranted; especially with children and pets about. - I have had even the little ones smack and fracture. Good call on the warnings.

As for the LED strip lights: I had also thought about the bottom of the gantry rail as Bill did, after all, that's where all the action is (hopefully). Actual placement will be decided after the behemoth arrives. Yes, add lots. I know the machine can cut with my eyes closed, but If I am watching my laser and not the 42" flatscreen electronic pacifier it should be well lit. - I mean, it is for safety sake, of course. - As for cameras inside the box: I have seen a couple of examples including one motion-sickness-inducing example apparently stuck to the gantry/lens assembly. I have an off-brand "No-Pro" camera that I have strapped to a little one while at the Fair (loads of fun to see the Fair and rides from their point of view) that I would not mind leaving inside, and a few USB webcams sitting around. - I will have to look up Raspberry Pi project. I have wanted to start playing with Arduino type electronic projects. At this point I am still oldschool when it comes to electronic gizmos, using 555 timer circuits, micro relays and such. But I was a programmer back in the day, so I really should step up.

I think I also would have replaced the Z-axis toggle to a momentary, self-centering switch. A no-brainer modification.

I have seen many videos with red-dot pointers hitting WAY off the actual laser contact point, including on MANY manufacturers product videos. (Sidebar: Isn't it amazing how many laser manufacturers have poor quality, 240p, shaky, dark, out of focus, one-handed cel phone videos - taken of a project piece that does not cut all the way through, with the smoke extraction off, red-dot pointer 1 1/2" away from the contact point, etc, etc?) In my head I have figured out how to solve this on the cheap. If it works I will certainly share it. If it doesn't I will either keep trying, give up and hope that nobody remembers I said anything, or share my follies and failures for a laugh. - I figure the in-line, beam combining lens route is probably best, but that just adds another beam path to align, and a potential (though likely small) power drop in the laser as it travels through another piece of refractory glass. - All of that means that I won't pay much extra for a red-dot pointer if it is not already included. If it is cheap but not included I can have them add this and later hijack the already laid wires and circuit.

And what is wrong with a beer holder? I know, I know: Don't drink and engrave. I have heard it since I was a kid. School assemblies and all that jazz. - Oh, wait... That was DRIVING. Never mind. What is wrong with a beer holder? The Pacific Northwest is full of hand-crafted liquid encouragement. How many great stories start with, "So, my buddy and I were sitting around drinking iced tea..."? Heck, I might just stick the beer holder onto the chassis with neodymium magnets. This would make any necessary repositioning my malted adult beverage more convenient whist maintaining the safety and security of the laser and beverage.

Speaking of safety: I already have at least six portable fire extinguishers strategically located around the home including at the top and the bottom of the basement stairwell, but I will conveniently locate one next to the laser once it arrives. One of the above posts mentioned a water spritzer (micro extinguisher!) and that sounds like an easy add-on. But, what do you guys use for actual extinguishers? I know we all hope to never use them, but we have got to have them close by. I remember when the Halon fire extinguishers hit the market years ago. Heavier than air gas with no real mess or residue. This sounds best to me, if they are still readily available. I haven't seen them in the hardware stores but I see that you can order Halotron extinguishers online. Just thinking: Old type A extinguishers that spray liquid + 20 kilovolt machinery=BAD. Drychem extinguishers that blast out clouds of dust vs. optics and precision moving parts=BAD. CO2 extinguishers can cause quite a cooling effect on the fire as well as the equipment; danger of cracking sensitive parts and pieces. Still less cleanup and danger than the fire itself. So, of the readily available types of extinguishers I lean toward the CO2 extinguishers, but what about halon? Anybody using that? And of course, even the dry-chem extinguisher will leave less of a mess and cleanup than A LASER ENGRAVER ON FIRE. - And I figure the best safety plan is to pay attention to what I put in the laser to begin with, and for God's sake, stick around and monitor the darn thing.

Again, thanks for all the input, advice and opinions. I am starting to shop my wish-list and specs to vendors. Lucky for me my wish-list actually looks a lot like some of the ready made machine packages with a few extra pieces thrown in the crate.

Scott.

[David Somers]

Evening Scott!!

Guess we are filling your head huh? Need aspirin yet? <grin>

You asked about fire extinguishers. I tend to stay away from Halon because of the cost, and also because of health issues with them if you breath it. Not deadly, but not highly recommended either. A CO2 extinguisher might serve you better. No residue or clean up. I found mine used at a Fire Extinquisher shop by calling around and saved a bundle. So far as the spritzer goes, that is actually what I use most. In fact, have never needed the CO2 unit at all so far (I am knocking frantically on wood having said that now.) A little water spritzer can knock out any flames from a cutting operation provided you have been watching the laser. If you walk away to pee or get more beer in the kitchen when you are cutting there is no telling how much of your machine will be left when you get back. A water spritzer and vigilance is the best bet. Ask Scott Shepherd. He has lots of tales and photos to share. (actually....he already shared them if you search the forum!)

Raspberry Pi in this case is pretty simple. Scott Shepherd has a thread on it and includes the only line of code you need to add to the unit to make use of the camera. Can't beat the resolution.

I may be wrong, but I think most folks who have tried to do inline red dots have not been happy with the power loss due to the setup. I can't remember who, but someone here had setup a unit with a red dot that dropped into the optical line for the laser so you could use it through the lens. THen it flipped back up out of the way. He built a little cutoff into it that kept the laser from firing if you accidentally left the LED in line when trying to run the laser. I will try to find that thread for you tomorrow. The basic red dot they provide is dirt cheap. No sense saying no to it. But you could look at ways to firm it up so it doesnt end up being wayyyyy off the mark all the time. Usually that is just cause of sloppy fit on the bracket that holds it. Once you work to resolve that they are pretty handy. Not necessary, but handy.

[Jerome Stanek]

My LG500 came with LEDs on the bottom of the gantry Really helps light up the work area

[Scott Cowell]

I had already run into a story of a laser fire when searching for importing stories. Some unfortunate poster (can't remember who) had his machine catch fire while he walked away. He posted a picture, and that picture has been my desktop wallpaper for about a week. It is a red and black cabinet with a little bit more black on the top than the manufacturer intended. Just for the reminder.

[Bill George]

I have lots of dry chemical extinguishers around but did you ever try to clean up after using one? That's why I bit the bullet and purchased a new CO2 one.

[John Noell]

FWLIW, I added a 2nd red dot pointer, at 90 degrees around the lens tube from the first. Just raise or lower the table until the two dots merge and you're in focus. Additionally, I do a lot of uneven surfaces and when I test 'frame' the engraving (which on Chinese machines means the gantry outlines a rectangle around where it is going to engrave/cut) one dot accurately shows the top and bottom of the rectangle and the other shows the sides. However, it would work better if one the dots was a different color.

[David Somers]

Scott,

Here is the link to Steve (scott) Sherpherds link about the raspberry pi camera.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?231022-Watchful-Pi-I-mean-Eye&highlight=raspberry+Pi
The one line of code you need to run from its command prompt is shown about 2/3's down the thread.
A Rasbpberry Pi, current version, should run you in the $60's on Amazon, fully loaded.
An HD camera for it will run about the same if I remember right. Plus a cheap HDMI monitor, maybe a cable. That is it and you now have a camera you can put anywhere. Very sharp and clear.


Dave

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I should clarify that my intention is to get a blade table and a honeycomb platform, not really a spare honeycomb. If one or the other, it will be the blade table to support the weight of whatever project I may be working on.

Were I to choose one or the other I'd go with the honeycomb. If you are engraving only it won't make much of a difference but for cutting many apps work better with the honeycomb particularly smaller parts. Because you can't control the tool path on the low cost machines, and by this I mean manually intervene in the CAM and tell the machine to cut the inside before it cuts the outside, some parts may either fall between the slats or lean from flat and the remaining holes aren't cut correctly.

If you can swing it, get one of each. I've never had an issue with the honeycomb moving on any of the machines I've used.

I've had a couple of fires in my machine but I was able to blow one of them out or on the bigger one take the material out. At both the Techshop SF location and the Chandler location I've seen the results of fires that needed an extinguisher. In both cases the machines had to be stripped, clean and have some parts replaced. On the worst one on mine the LED strip on the gantry burned off. I did take the mirrors and lense out and clean them as well as the rails and inspect the belts and wiring. Depending on how and what's burning it's going to be a likely wood or the plastic you are cutting, which is a type A extinguisher (the material catches on fire first) and if it gets out of hand, the components of the machine, perhaps electrical components which are a type C, will go up. I have a couple of type ABC in the shop. That's what they have at Techshop as well.

[Bert Kemp]

2 Things Dave 1 never leave a machine while its cutting never! and 2 keep a spray bottle of water on top of the laser works way way better then blowing. Blowing just adds oxygen and in most cases will make the fire bigger


Were I to choose one or the other I'd go with the honeycomb. If you are engraving only it won't make much of a difference but for cutting many apps work better with the honeycomb particularly smaller parts. Because you can't control the tool path on the low cost machines, and by this I mean manually intervene in the CAM and tell the machine to cut the inside before it cuts the outside, some parts may either fall between the slats or lean from flat and the remaining holes aren't cut correctly.

If you can swing it, get one of each. I've never had an issue with the honeycomb moving on any of the machines I've used.

I've had a couple of fires in my machine but I was able to blow one of them out or on the bigger one take the material out. At both the Techshop SF location and the Chandler location I've seen the results of fires that needed an extinguisher. In both cases the machines had to be stripped, clean and have some parts replaced. On the worst one on mine the LED strip on the gantry burned off. I did take the mirrors and lense out and clean them as well as the rails and inspect the belts and wiring. Depending on how and what's burning it's going to be a likely wood or the plastic you are cutting, which is a type A extinguisher (the material catches on fire first) and if it gets out of hand, the components of the machine, perhaps electrical components which are a type C, will go up. I have a couple of type ABC in the shop. That's what they have at Techshop as well.

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

A few years ago I had some training at Techshop, one each on the Epilog, Trotec and ULS provided a trainer for the couple of classes I had on the Universal. All say to blow the little fires out (after you hit the E stop). The Techshop method is not to use an extinguisher unless the fire is out of control. My big one just went up as the backing paper caught fire and spread to the acrylic. My guess would be that melamine residue in the honeycomb or some material caught down there ignited it. At peak we'll cut 40 hours a week or so (machine cycle time, not total time..) Even when you are with it, things catch on fire. The best thing to do is not panic.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Because you can't control the tool path on the low cost machines, and by this I mean manually intervene in the CAM and tell the machine to cut the inside before it cuts the outside

Cut direction, cut order and tool path can be controlled on most of the chinese boxes.The only one's that don't are the Moshi based systems (K40) but Ruida, Leetro and AWC can all be set in software

[Bert Kemp]

Yep lasercut 5.3 has it


Cut direction, cut order and tool path can be controlled on most of the chinese boxes.The only one's that don't are the Moshi based systems (K40) but Ruida, Leetro and AWC can all be set in software

[Kev Williams]

So does my Triumph's PHCad software-- it's called "optimal path"- if YES then the machine determines the path takes. If NO, it cuts 'verbatim'...

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

Cut direction, cut order and tool path can be controlled on most of the chinese boxes.The only one's that don't are the Moshi based systems (K40) but Ruida, Leetro and AWC can all be set in software

I can create different settings and designate a path based on color/layer but I have to present it that way to the laser software (CAM). Is there a manual pathing solution that will take a raw file and allow for manual pathing where you don't have to mainputlate the original prior to loading it into the CAM? If you are familiar with how it's done in waterjet or plasma cutting CNC is you can tell it what segments and order to cut in the CAM without having to convert the original file. Flow Path is a good example if you are familiar with that as a comparison.

[Scott Cowell]

Well, I finalized my requirements, preferences and options and started shopping for quotes. I contacted manufacturers directly and via Alibaba. Asking for prices at their loading dock and at my back door. I am willing to hire a shipping broker to get the thing from the ship - through customs - onto the truck and delivered to me if needed. That part doesn't sound like much fun. I'm not yet sure whether UPS Express Saver or Fed-Ex IE connects easily with the trucks that already roam my neighborhood, but at least one vendor is asking for my physical address in order to give me a quote, so that implies they have some system in place. -- Oh, the adventure begins!

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

The package is too heavy to come from any of the big three package trucks that are on the normal routes in your area. The limit is 150 lbs for those guys. It's likely to come freight. Unless you have a dock or a fork you'll need lift gate service. For residential deliveries that's usually the standard. It's not difficult logistically to get from the port of entry to your home. There are plenty of services for that.

I doubt it's going to come by air. If it does it's going to be fairly expensive. Some distributors on Alibaba/Aliexpress have warehousing and fulfillment over here, usually in So Cal or the Bay Area. I don't know if any of the non K40 laser guys have anything over here. If it's on the water it will be about a month before you see it.

There are a few blog posts about the process from some that bought machines direct from China. They are a couple of years old at this point but you get the idea.

Felix over at Low Power Lab, a small batch electronics kit shop bought one and had it shipped to suburban Detroit. http://lowpowerlab.com/blog/2014/05/26/importing-a-laser-cutter-from-china/

Victor at Polygon Labs bought a GWieke 6-7 years ago. Looks like the site is dormant now but the post is still up http://www.polygonlabs.com/blog/?page_id=6

Here's a primer on some basic terms and using your supplier for shipping. It's meant for people shipping commercial accounts but you can get some good info from the post. http://blog.haveninc.com/leveraging_your_supplier/

I use supplier shipping from China because they can get me much better pricing for the quantities I buy. I get motors, bearings, precision shafts and a wide variety of electronic assemblies from several suppliers. My shipments are usually under 100#, quite a bit smaller than what you are getting. If you are using a known supplier you're likely better off doing it though them for a one off shipment.

[Scott Cowell]

Dave,

I assume it will be the "slow boat from China" syndrome and take a month or so to arrive. I also assume a large freight truck, but wonder if they have the system in place to get these things through customs and onto the truck to my house. Whether the vendor can arrange this or if I have to hire a shipping broker I am not enthused about doing this myself. I will find someone who has done this more than once before. Any experience with this is more than I have.

I will certainly check out the links you provided, especially the basic terms and shipping primer. This is my first "big" package from China. My usual China purchases are less than ten bucks and come in little white, plastic baggie style envelopes. It still amazes me that they can manufacture a product, store it, market it, pull it, sell it and ship it to Podunk, Washington, USA for $1.26. I can't send that same package to Seattle for that price. -- This will obviously be a bit different...

Well, time to check the e-mail for quotes.
Thanks to everyone here, for all the encouragement, opinions and advice.
Scott.

[David Somers]

Scott,

If you are using a broker to help with the shipping and customs clearances they will do all the work for you. They can arrange the movement of the item from the port to your house, and will include lift gate service if you request it. Movement of the crate within the Port of Seattle to the truck is handled by the Port staff. Your broker will arrange all that for you along with sheperding the crate through Customs and Agriculture, paying the fees, filing the appropriate clearances, etc.

If you have a driveway or sidewalk to where it will be delivered you might also ask for a palette jack or other type of lift to get it to where you want it. They are unlikely to arrange to bring it actually into your home or shop unless you are willing to pay for that. More likely you are looking for a bunch of burley people to do that for you. For example. My trucker brought the CNC and laser to the house with a lift gate and a jack and we were able to unload it and move it down the drive to the entrance to the garage. From there it was up to me. The CNC was the hard one and I ended up using a wheeled engine hoist to lift it off the palette and move it and lift it up to the table where it would sit. At 700lbs it was a heavy sucker to move and lift up that high onto the table. The laser I simply made a ramp for to get it off the palette and then was able to roll it on its wheels into the shop. So in my case I was able to do all this by myself.

Hope that helps!

Dave

[Ryan Matthews]

Scott,

I'm happy I stumbled upon your post because I was probably about two weeks behind you in ordering the San Francisco port ebay 100W laser......reading through your ordeal definitely put us on pause and gave us the chance to email the seller directly prior to making the purchase to confirm actual SF warehouse inventory (as you know - it doensn't exist) - - - anyhow - my wife and I have been looking to upgrade substantially from the K40 cheap china laser that we purchased last fall. My wife is an amazing graphic designer and was interested in staying home to raise our son (13-months now) - - - while also figuring out a way to appease the creative need and also bring in some extra money.

We bought the K40 as a 'proof of concept' to make sure that engraving and cutting small personalized ornaments - signs, wedding favors/save the dates....etc. was worth the investment in a better laser. 600+ sales on etsy later and we are sure that she can satisfy her creative needs while staying home with our son.

I'm curious about what you ended up ordering for your use as the hobby and lifestyle that you described is directly in line with this small little etsy/hobby business that we've created.

We live down just north of San Francisco and the more that i've read it seems that ordering direct from a chinese firm (vs. ebay) is the best way to go - rayling seems popular.....and picking the machine up at port could work for us. I think that's what you decided to do from your research......right? If you don't mind me asking - what did you end up purchasing?

For us - we want to get the largest bed that we can fit in the space and likely use an 80W tube to blend the needs of cutting 1/8"up to 1/4" ply and then also apply custom engravings to the finished piece. 80W seems to be the sweet spot.

Any thoughts or help would be appreciated - - -

Our K40 took a turn (burned up) - - - when we tried to cut some acryllic with a paper backing and got distracted. No true damage - but a K40 is just not worth fixing.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts or wisdom you feel like sharing.

Best,
Ryan

[Clark Pace]

Glad you are ok. Number 1 rule. Never leave a laser alone even for a bit. A laser company left for a fes minutes his garage burnt down. Local or direct it what i sould suggest also

[David Somers]

Morning Ryan,

You might want to do a separate thread for your question so it isnt buried in the long discussion this thread brought up. Before you do that though, you may want to do some searches in the Forum. I bet you find a slug of threads quickly that address your needs.

I am a chatty person however so I will answer you directly.

I bought my laser after about a year of pestering everyone here and learning about their operation, good points and bad. I also searched on the forum a bunch as well as hunting in sources elsewhere.
My goal was to have a machine that could work on both my turned wood items (engraving, inlay, cutouts, etc) and also do smaller things to add to a range of things to sell at fairs and shows and perhaps eventually in Etsy. I would have loved a Trotec, or one of the other western machines but could simply not justify the cost for what I wanted to do. This is a serious hobby, not a business that is feeding me. I also would have preferred to purchase a Rabbit Laser USA machine from Ray Scott. Super folks with a great reputation, plus they are in the US. They import their machines and then do a lot of work on them as well as support you from the day of their delivery (they come to and give you training time on the machine while there setting it up) as well as through the life of the machine. But although they are far less expensive than a Trotec they were still well above what I considered reasonable for my use. Note my term here. I think their prices are quite good. It was just not a price I felt I could justify for my uses.

So I ended up buying direct from China. I read tons here about that and then started digging through companies over there. Google Translate is my friend. I eventually ended up with the company shown in my signature below and have been very happy with them and with the sales person I worked with there. And I ended up with a CNC as well after considering what I was going to do with the machine. Both have been good machines. There are other very good companies out there as well. I did lots of due diligence on the company until I was as confident in them as I could be. I had plenty of time and did not rush the process so everything we did together was clear and understood. It was a good process overall. As far as the importing I used a local importing company which was a huge help since I had never done this before. All went smoothly.

I bought a 900x600 machine due to the big increase in size going to a 1200 x 900 unit. I could fit it but it was a stretch. I did an 80watt EFR tube. spare lenses and a dedicated lens tube for each lens size I was working with. Also spare mirrors and chain and belt and whatnot. CW5000 chiller, air assist, blower, etc. I did not buy a spare CO2 tube. They age on the shelf and as easy as it is to replace by mail that didnt seem to be worth it. Down time was not a big issue for me either.

I never leave the machine when cutting.

Holler if there is other info you want! Happy to help.

Dave