Who has $4222 to spend on a Smoother?

[Hilton Ralphs]

The new SE Dual Angle Smoother (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) from Bridge City Tool Works.

Not sure I even like it.

336941

[Stew Hagerty]

Bridge City makes some of the best tools available. That said, they are as much pieces of art as they are efficient, effective, and fully functional tools.
I am the proud owner of one of their TS-1V2 Try Squares. It sits in my toolbox, I side of the box it came in. I pull it out every once in a while to check the setting of a tool before I carefully wipe it off and play e it back in its box. I live it because it is absolutely positively dead-end, and because I own a beautiful piece of art.

[Jim Koepke]

It is a beautiful piece of art.

It isn't practical for using as a shop tool unless you are producing extremely high end work. What happens years from now when it needs a replacement blade?

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

What happens years from now when it needs a replacement blade?



I wonder if anyone has actually needed a replacement blade for their BCTW plane(s)?

Still not convinced on the tote design.

[Derek Cohen]

The new SE Dual Angle Smoother (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) from Bridge City Tool Works.

Not sure I even like it.

336941


BC have a unique take on tools. While they appear complicated, they are also pared down ... minimalistic construction. That is where they become an art form.

One cannot ask questions, such as whether they are value-for-money. Obviously they are not. While they are functional tools, they are also clearly not for everyday use.

I'd own this plane in a heartbeat if I could afford it. I'd use it too. Just not very often.

A similar concept plane has been designed and developed by Quangsheng (factory of the infamous WoodRiver). This is a redesign and rebuild of the Record #043 ...

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Quangsheng-Luban-043-Blades-zoom.jpg

This sold by Workshop Heaven (UK), only I believe.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I wonder if anyone has actually needed a replacement blade for their BCTW plane(s)?

Still not convinced on the tote design.

"If you can count to nine, you can convert to Metric"


I kind of agree with you on the tote design.

I kind of chuckle when I read the sig line at the bottom of your posts.

What comes to my sometimes warped mind, "If you can divide by fourths, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-secondths, sixtyfourths and convert them back and forth to decimal, you can work with inches."

Certainly the Metric system is so much easier but most Americans are likely still using a yardstick their father gave them.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The new SE Dual Angle Smoother (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) from Bridge City Tool Works.

Not sure I even like it.

336941

That looks like a nice "budget" alternative for folks who can't quite afford a Holtey.

Seriously, not my cup of tea either aesthetically or functionally.

Note that those are rendered (ray-traced) images, not photos - based on that and the wording on the website ("will be produced" etc) it would appear that BCTW is basically doing a Kickstarter for extremely well-heeled tool geeks.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have to say I don't like this one. It is too skeletal and "cold" looking. I have their scratch awl- bent it the first time I used it just to make a mark for drilling- and their small square, which has very visible glue showing over time. I cannot say I am very impressed with those two tools, especially for the price.

[Allan Speers]

I have to say I don't like this one. It is too skeletal and "cold" looking .


You can say that again.

if I found that on the side of the road, I'd probably leave it there.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think it's neat looking and I'd enjoy trying it out. I wonder how many BCT will sell and to whom?

Like others, my feeling is that this is really intended as artwork. I can imagine it being bought by a wealthy collector, someone who focusses on finely-made crafts in various media. Then, when Buffy and Muffy come over for dinner, the owner takes it out of the display case and makes a few shavings to show that "it works". Kind of an expression of industrial design as art work?

[Brian Holcombe]

You don't need to be wealthy to purchase one, you just need $4222 + shipping.

[Mike Cherry]

That looks like a nice "budget" alternative for folks who can't quite afford a Holtey.

Seriously, not my cup of tea either aesthetically or functionally.

Note that those are rendered (ray-traced) images, not photos - based on that and the wording on the website ("will be produced" etc) it would appear that BCTW is basically doing a Kickstarter for extremely well-heeled tool geeks.


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243143-FS-Bridge-City-Tools-CT-18-Dual-Low-Angle-Smoothing-Plane-Seattle-area

dont think this is a kickstarter. You can buy one "used" from a creeker right now.

Edit: nevermind the link above is for a different plane. Good pictures of the planes body though, very similar.

[george wilson]

I don't think their designer is particularly good. The designs are too extreme. Their block plane is way too "stretched out". All that complicated gizmo mechanism is not necessary. Their weird little brace and bit is just odd looking. Their combo square is a bunch of extreme looking angles.

People never seem to buy their tools to use. Ebay is littered with never used examples.

Yes,their tools are well made,but I can do without the extreme designs.

[Pat Barry]

I think the front knob is totally out of place on this plane. It should have a skeleton form instead.

[george wilson]

PLEASE,Barry!!!!! It is already weird enough looking without a skeletal front knob.

But,if anyone wants to buy it AND have a skeletal knob made,I'll do it for ONLY $3000.00!!!!:)

Actually,the existing front knob is the best designed part on the whole shebang. The REAR TOTE is just horrible.

The plane is a fine example of some art student gone BIZARRE. I wonder if the company was started by a wealthy trust fund guy gone bizarro World!!:)

[Metod Alif]

Ha, another answer to the prayers of multi-challenged woodworkers. After all, they do have needs...
Metod

[Prashun Patel]

I think we're missing the point.

This is clearly pushing an aesthetic envelope. It's appealing to a particular person, not a broad audience.

It's haute couture, not H and M. It's Marilyn Manson, not Marilyn Monroe.

Ironically, I think at $422, we'd be less out of line with criticisms than at $4222.

They might, however, take a page from Hermes' Birkin bag, and just list the price as 'unavailable'.

[William Adams]

We've discussed this before, if memory serves, and it was described as the "Terminator" plane.

In terms of a new and different aesthetic, it's interesting, though doesn't quite appeal to me. I'm far more interested in their JointMaker Pro table saw, but would love to have the occasion to try out all their tools.

One thing I'm surprised isn't advertised is that the skeletal tote affords one the option to make a custom handle in two halves which could then be joined together w/ Chicago screws or rivets --- if they'd include a pair of blanks for that (or sell blanks, or provide a CAD), it would be far more accessible, maybe even almost practical I'd think.

[Art Mann]

I own one hand plane and that is enough for me. However, I find the design and machining of this tool to be beautiful. If I had money to waste, I would buy one and build it a nice display case.

[Jim Koepke]

People never seem to buy their tools to use. Ebay is littered with never used examples.

Yes,their tools are well made,but I can do without the extreme designs.

I usually will not buy a tool unless I have a use for it. I can not imagine using a 'piece of art' to smooth my lumber.

jtk

[William Adams]

There is also a bit of continuance of previous design language for woodworking tools --- see the skeletal instances of the STANLEY No. 610 Hand Drill SWEETHEART (there's currently one on Jimbodetools) for a previous example of this sort of thing.

[Patrick Chase]

I think the front knob is totally out of place on this plane. It should have a skeleton form instead.

Troll. :-)

[John Gornall]

I enjoy original design as I like to see how other people think. I don't have a desire to own an item like this but I would sure like to spend a day with it to observe, touch, and plane some wood. Wish they would rent them as an option to buying them.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

What comes to my sometimes warped mind, "If you can divide by fourths, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-secondths, sixtyfourths and convert them back and forth to decimal, you can work with inches."

Certainly the Metric system is so much easier but most Americans are likely still using a yardstick their father gave them.

You want to talk evil minds.... :D

"If you can divide and multiply by 10, 100, and 1000 and convert them back and forth to fourths, sixteenths, thirty-secondths, and sixty-fourths, you can work metric".

[Rich Riddle]

I positively don't like it. This is at the end of the spectrum where the wife would not indulge the hobby. You can't blame her.


Not sure I even like it.

336941

[Michael Fross]

I think it is absolutely beautiful. Not practical, very expensive, probably not comfortable to use, but beautiful. They made a shoulder plane some time ago that I thought was the best looking plane I had ever seen.

Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

Michael

[bridger berdel]

I'd say that BC's marketing is aimed at the wealthy collector's ego. as it it the most expensive smoother on the market it must be the best, and purchasing it makes a statement as to the purchaser's elite status.



You don't need to be wealthy to purchase one, you just need $4222 + shipping.

[george wilson]

What makes anyone think that that straight stalk of a handle is beautiful,comfortable,or practical?

I agree with Bridger's post above this one.

[Patrick Chase]

I'd say that BC's marketing is aimed at the wealthy collector's ego. as it it the most expensive smoother on the market it must be the best, and purchasing it makes a statement as to the purchaser's elite status.

I agree with your analysis of their market, but I wasn't joking when I said that it was "for folks who can't quite afford a Holtey (http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/karl_holtey_planes.htm)". It's far from being the most expensive smoother.

Of course the Holtey is usable as a plane. I could swear I once saw something that looked a lot like the BC's tote in a museum exhibit about medieval torture (which is a roundabout way of saying: George is right. The ergonomics look absolutely awful).

[Kirby Krieger]

I own a few downmarket Bridge City tools, as well as — for one frustrating week so far* — a JointMaker Pro v.2 with Precision Fence System. My first Bridge City purchase was a splurge on their Chopstick Master (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/chopstick-master.html). I was shopping for a small "apron" plane, and it comes with one (their HP-8 (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/hp-8-aluminum-with-depth-skids.html) Aluminum mini-block plane with depth skids), and one thing led to another. The Chopstick maker works, and is a lot of fun — a good, and possibly great, way to give some people not just an idea of what "Woodworking" is, but the actual (to me) profound experience of planing wood and the deep pleasure of making a complete, well-made, physical, useful, handheld object.

The HP-8 plane that comes with the Chopstick Master works as well as any top-notch contemporary plane, except that it is not comfortable in the hand (almost everyone who has used mine has mentioned this before I gave any indication that I agreed). Bridge City's aesthetic seems to favor looks over utility, as the Chopstick Master plane exemplifies. The depth skids are useful and worthwhile.

The Chopstick Master sells for c. 360 USD [corrected from 300]. I would argue that this might be high, but is in no way silly, atmospheric, or unreachable. There is nothing collectable about it. It is fundamentally a tool (the kit consists of the plane, an elaborate and ingenious jig, many chopstick blanks, and presentation sleeves for the finished chopsticks). You buy it to make things, and you make things with it.

The just-announced (afaik) SE Dual Angle Smoother is not sold as a tool. I don't doubt that it works well (and I don't doubt that it is uncomfortable in regular use). But the price, and the presentation, clearly indicate that it is not being sold to be used as a plane. A tool that is not used is not a tool — it's just a ... thing. It's not art, as I understand art: it is not intended to convey meaning. It is, we can say, an example of the tool-maker's art — but in that formula "art" means "technique". It is almost purely an object of exchange, nothing more, and nothing less — a "collectible".

To whet this to what I hope is an unmistakable divisor: as much as the SE D-A Smoother exemplifies the tool-maker's art, it even more exemplifies the tool-maker's marketing art — what used to be called "business acumen". The degree to which Bridge City's business model affects their tool design would make a telling story, imho. [This paragraph added.]

Personally, it doesn't interest me as a plane. Aesthetically, I think it has several problems, but I wouldn't discuss the aesthetics of an object from photos, and certainly not from a single photo, and _especially_ not from a computer rendering of a digital file (kudos to Patrick Chase who pointed this out (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243605-Who-has-4222-to-spend-on-a-Smoother&p=2561523#post2561523)).

Bridge City's 6-inch rule (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/rulers/sr-6-6-pocket-rule.html) is a joy to use. I recommend it.

*Review being penned.

[Chris Hachet]

The new SE Dual Angle Smoother (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) from Bridge City Tool Works.

Not sure I even like it.

336941

Wicked to look at, but I will stick to my vintage Stanley's...

[steven c newman]

It makes my hands hurt just looking at it. Hit a knot with it, and that scrawny knob will break.

[george wilson]

I'm failing to see WHY their 6" rule is "Unlike any other on the market". Looks just like a PEC rule. Is it the 1/16" grads + the 1/32" grads? The hard chrome is pretty standard also.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I'm failing to see WHY their 6" rule is "Unlike any other on the market". Looks just like a PEC rule. Is it the 1/16" grads + the 1/32" grads? The hard chrome is pretty standard also.

No other 6" ruler says "Bridge City Toolworks, Portland, Oregon" on it. By default, their statement is accurate. I could say my Jeep Liberty is "unlike any other on the market" because no other Jeep Liberty has the same combination of sawdust, beach sand, and rust spots as mine.

[Kirby Krieger]

I'm failing to see WHY their 6" rule is "Unlike any other on the market". Looks just like a PEC rule. Is it the 1/16" grads + the 1/32" grads? The hard chrome is pretty standard also.

Since your post is in response to mine, I'd like to point out that the citation is taken from Bridge City's Website and not from my post.

"Unlike any other on the market" seems to be no more than bog-standard copywriting these days. Although I have, regularly use, and happily recommend their 6" rule, I have not compared it to others nor done any kind of market round-up of the genre. The rule is accurate and precise, easy to read, provides a quick ¾" parallel, and has a handy 1/32's scale on the short ends that I often use for setting marking gauges.

[Brian Ashton]

Wow. Tough crowd tonight. I applaud the makers and their effort. They have carved out a niche market and for all intensive purposes are succeeding. It shows an exceptional level of skill in manufacture, ingenuity and design - no one can question that. I would suspect you could hardly find a blemish on it. And thank, what ever you believe in, that you live in a part of the world where it's possible to at least be exposed to such freedoms. I would wonder if the plane is all that far off if you compared the ratio of wages to cost as to whether the plane is out of skew with what a Norris (or some other ground breaking plane was) cost 150 or 200 years ago...

[Patrick Chase]

Wow. Tough crowd tonight. I applaud the makers and their effort. They have carved out a niche market and for all intensive purposes are succeeding. It shows an exceptional level of skill in manufacture, ingenuity and design - no one can question that. I would suspect you could hardly find a blemish on it. And thank, what ever you believe in, that you live in a part of the world where it's possible to at least be exposed to such freedoms. I would wonder if the plane is all that far off if you compared the ratio of wages to cost as to whether the plane is out of skew with what a Norris (or some other ground breaking plane was) cost 150 or 200 years ago...

At least in my case the reason I'm being harsh isn't because it costs so much - it's because it's obviously impractical.

Holtey planes cost double what the BC one does, and I would never pay that much for a simple fixture that holds a chisel at a fixed angle and adjustable projection, but they're also VERY respectable and usable planes. I don't think you can say that about the BC with its funky ergonomics, and that makes it purely a status symbol.

[Kirby Krieger]

[ ... ] carved out a niche market [ ... ]

Here in this forum, I think the apposite question is: What market?

A market for tools?

Or a market for collectibles?

Those markets barely overlap.

The success of a tool is that is adopted by tool-users and/or copied by other tool-makers. I don't see this happening to the Bridge City items such as the SE Dual-Angle Smoother.

The success of a collectible is that it sells well. Note that the plane in question is being produced as a limited edition (a concept taken from fine-art printing, afaik). I do see the limited-edition SE Dual-Angle Smoother selling out its manufacturing run (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) of 50 units:

Only 50 of these exquisitely crafted tools wil be made and have a few units remaining. {sic.}

[John Kananis]

I'm failing to see WHY their 6" rule is "Unlike any other on the market". Looks just like a PEC rule. Is it the 1/16" grads + the 1/32" grads? The hard chrome is pretty standard also.

Not to take this too OT, but what do you think of those PEC squares? Seem like a good value compared to Starrett, which I swear by.

[Brian Ashton]

Here in this forum, I think the apposite question is: What market?

A market for tools?

Or a market for collectibles?

Those markets barely overlap.

The success of a tool is that is adopted by tool-users and/or copied by other tool-makers. I don't see this happening to the Bridge City items such as the SE Dual-Angle Smoother.

The success of a collectible is that it sells well. Note that the plane in question is being produced as a limited edition (a concept taken from fine-art printing, afaik). I do see the limited-edition SE Dual-Angle Smoother selling out its manufacturing run (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) of 50 units:


My metric for success is the accounting one - the business is an on going concern

They've been around a long time and plan to continue for a long time so they are a success. Maybe they don't make a lot of money and their market is very narrow, but then again I've never met a well paid furniture maker that makes furniture for all aspects (no one makes furniture for the cheap ikea shopper. You know the one, the shopper that ask why your furniture is more expensive than ikeas) of the market - ever. Met plenty of happy and content woodworkers but not because of the pay.

[Brian Ashton]

At least in my case the reason I'm being harsh isn't because it costs so much - it's because it's obviously impractical.

Holtey planes cost double what the BC one does, and I would never pay that much for a simple fixture that holds a chisel at a fixed angle and adjustable projection, but they're also VERY respectable and usable planes. I don't think you can say that about the BC with its funky ergonomics, and that makes it purely a status symbol.

Maybe, but so what. Years ago I got to make a carved cup that would never ever be used for anything, it would only ever sit in a glass cabinet and the customer paid hundreds for it... They wanted it and they could afford it. Again I'm glad that I live in a part of the world where that's a choice.

And to be honest, who's going to pay $7000 for a Hotley and used it in any practical manner. The best you could expect is they take one shaving off a pine board, take a picture to prove it, and then stick it in the show case, never to come out again. People buy Bugatti Vayrons but they don't drive down to the supermarket in them.

I'm one of those who embraces class society. How else am I going to get to make ridiculously opulent crap that has no practical value, unless there are those that have obscene amounts of cash to throw about ;).

[Derek Cohen]

At least in my case the reason I'm being harsh isn't because it costs so much - it's because it's obviously impractical.

Holtey planes cost double what the BC one does, and I would never pay that much for a simple fixture that holds a chisel at a fixed angle and adjustable projection, but they're also VERY respectable and usable planes. I don't think you can say that about the BC with its funky ergonomics, and that makes it purely a status symbol.

Patrick, I think that the BCT and Holtey are two different markets - although not to say that you cannot have those that like both. In my opinion, BCT build original designs, and they are aimed at the art-as-tools market. I think some of their designs are fabulous. But I do not take many as serious tools-first .... although, having written that, I must qualify that some are splendid tools. My one and only BCT tool is a 2x2 saddle square. That's it on the left alongside a dovetail market I built ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/BridgeCitySaddleSquare2.jpg

You will find unused BCT tools on eBay. There are many that collect them - again, as art, and not to use. I view John Economaki as a brilliant and inventive designer. If you and others do not share his ideas, then that simply reflects "art lies in the eye of the beholder". Agree or disagree, the man puts it out there.

Karl Holtey is brilliant as well, but in a different way. He finally moved away from reproducing Norris designs, which nevertheless came with his improvements to the mechanics, to produce his own designs. And they are not only excellent, but taken to the highest level in construction. I think that he will always be remembered for his utmost precision, however, and not for his design work. As a contrast, Konrad Sauer will be recalled for his lines and flow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Ashton]

One thing is for certain. If BCT doesn't continue after the founder hangs it up, those tools will be worth a fortune. In 200 years they will only be found in the most exclusive collections or museums... He will be remembered that's for sure

[Patrick Chase]

People buy Bugatti Vayrons but they don't drive down to the supermarket in them.

You would be surprised at some of the things people do with Buggati Veyrons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NJmB1F2mdE).

Full disclosure: Insurance fraud.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, I think that the BCT and Holtey are two different markets - although not to say that you cannot have those that like both. In my opinion, BCT build original designs, and they are aimed at the art-as-tools market. I think some of their designs are fabulous. But I do not take many as serious tools-first .... although, having written that, I must qualify that some are splendid tools. My one and only BCT tool is a 2x2 saddle square. That's it on the left alongside a dovetail market I built ...

To be honest I prefer the aesthetics of your dovetailed dovetail marker to those of the BCT saddle. More thoughts on that below...


You will find unused BCT tools on eBay. There are many that collect them - again, as art, and not to use. I view John Economaki as a brilliant and inventive designer. If you and others do not share his ideas, then that simply reflects "art lies in the eye of the beholder". Agree or disagree, the man puts it out there.

Karl Holtey is brilliant as well, but in a different way. He finally moved away from reproducing Norris designs, which nevertheless came with his improvements to the mechanics, to produce his own designs. And they are not only excellent, but taken to the highest level in construction. I think that he will always be remembered for his utmost precision, however, and not for his design work. As a contrast, Konrad Sauer will be recalled for his lines and flow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have a couple thoughts:

1. I tend to evaluate tools on the basis of their usefulness as such rather than their aesthetics. That's probably why I have a soft spot for unattractive-but-efficient designs like the classic Veritas BD "East German Swimmer special" plane. It also means that I'm fundamentally unreceptive to "art that imitates tools" if it isn't useful as a tool, which I think validates your point about this discussion being mostly a matter of differing aesthetics.

2. This is a woodworking forum, so I don't think it's unreasonable to evaluate tools based on their functionality.

[Andrew Hughes]

I could see my finger getting caught in one of those holes. Looks like someone was more concerned about form rather than function.
That breaks the rule of craftsman ship.
What a shame.

[Kees Heiden]

They sure raise a lot of heat! Just the ticket for me. I just ordered two of them, one for myself and one for my son.

Oh wait, I don't have a son...

[Frederick Skelly]

They sure raise a lot of heat! Just the ticket for me. I just ordered two of them, one for myself and one for my son.

Oh wait, I don't have a son...

You could adopt me Kees! I'll be happy with an LN and save you some money! :D

[Kees Heiden]

Only when you come over each Saterday to clean up my workshop ;)

[Kirby Krieger]

One thing is for certain. If BCT doesn't continue after the founder hangs it up, those tools will be worth a fortune. In 200 years they will only be found in the most exclusive collections or museums... He will be remembered that's for sure

On the contrary, I think it is likely that, having not secured even a toe-hold in the tool-users market, the value of the tools will plummet, and in 200 years they will be found in _only_ collections whose exclusivity is of the sort "first-edition rarely-touched XXI tools made in Portland, Oregon (then United States of America)".

[Brian Ashton]

On the contrary, I think it is likely that, having not secured even a toe-hold in the tool-users market, the value of the tools will plummet, and in 200 years they will be found in _only_ collections whose exclusivity is of the sort "first-edition rarely-touched XXI tools made in Portland, Oregon (then United States of America)".


Lets wager. In 200 years we'll see who's right LOL. Edit: Which when I think about it, if you're in your 20's, you could quite possibly live that long.

Though, I read somewhere he's been at it for over 30 years. I'd say he has a toe at the very least.

[Jim Koepke]

I like the Bridge City 6" rule because it has the measurements left to right on one side and right to left on the other.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Lets wager. In 200 years we'll see who's right LOL. Edit: Which when I think about it, if you're in your 20's, you could quite possibly live that long.

Though, I read somewhere he's been at it for over 30 years. I'd say he has a toe at the very least.
I think you need to figure out who is actually buying one of these devices and why they are buying them. Is there purely collector value? I can't see why. Maybe its just the perceived coolness factor? Maybe for the rich folks out there. Is there inherent, although expensive rational for why the design works so much better? I don't see that either.

[george wilson]

Whole page of BC stuff on Ebay right now. Mostly squares(WHY make a square out of BRASS and WOOD????? Would you like it to STAY SQUARE????? Some still in the wrapper. Uber expensive block plane too.

[Niels Cosman]

Whole page of BC stuff on Ebay right now. Mostly squares(WHY make a square out of BRASS and WOOD????? Would you like it to STAY SQUARE????? Some still in the wrapper. Uber expensive block plane too.
I love Bridge City layout stuff. My favorites are the adjustable 4 and 14 trysquares simply because of the unusual and very practical size. I also really like the saddle squares and adjustable squares. The large T-Square (all metal) is also fantastic.

However I definitely take issue with some of the designs and durability of the tools.
The coco scales of the 4" have loosened up and I have CA glued them back. The old bevel squares with the thumb knobs are pretty lousy and can't hold a setting without major over tightening.
I have the steel and brass hammers and use them all the time, but the heads are glued on into a blind socket and they regularly loosen up.
I wonder about the design process of the the planes and how they suffer from the low-volume nature of the tools and the lack of use and feedback.
The brass, steel and rosewood block plane (hp-1?) is one of the most striking new planes but has the worst ergonomics (the new one is not great either). It's awkward to hold and slippery as a fish.
The bench planes are not for me. the older ones or the newer ones seem to be a jumbled mess parts slapped together, no harmony between the forms. I am not a fan.
Ultimately to each their own. I am glad that there is a market for the tools and BCTW was certainly one of the pioneers of the hand tool resurgance so I wish them continued success in the future.

[Kirby Krieger]

Whole page of BC stuff on Ebay right now. Mostly squares(WHY make a square out of BRASS and WOOD????? Would you like it to STAY SQUARE????? Some still in the wrapper. Uber expensive block plane too.

I'm not getting the same results — or perhaps I am not evaluating identical results the same way. With work, I can turn up c. 25 Bridge City items currently on offer on eBay USA. Of the c. 25, four are squares. (NB: that the squares are poorly designed is a separate issue.)

For comparison:

Bridge City Tool Works c. 25 items
Lie-Nielsen c. 35
Veritas c. 30
Lee Valley c. 30 (obviously overlap)
Festool c. 4,000 (but, afaik, that includes sales by dealers)

What conclusions do you draw from the fact there are currently c. 25 Bridge City Tool Works items on offer on eBay USA? (And my apology if my search is wrong — I am not familiar with eBay.

[Patrick Chase]

What conclusions do you draw from the fact there are currently c. 25 Bridge City Tool Works items on offer on eBay USA? (And my apology if my search is wrong — I am not familiar with eBay.

I draw the conclusion that indicators like Ebay item counts are basically Rorschach tests.

25 tools is probably a vastly higher %age of BCTW's installed base than are 30-35 LV or LN tools. Even if true that doesn't mean much, though, because we don't know why people are selling and (more importantly) buying. A highly liquid market isn't always a bad sign.

[Kevin Groenke]

Beautiful design, engineering and production, I would definitely not leave it at the side of the road. Some of those making assumptions re:usability might be surprised if you ever got your hands on one of these (or not, I have no idea).

BCTW founder, president, CEO etc John Economacki gave his "too stupid to quit" talk at the Furniture Society conference a couple years ago. Interesting life story of a successful furniture designer/maker turned tool maker when he developed a severe wood allergy. BCTW is an obsession that has been on the verge of collapse on numerous occasions. It seems he's get a cultish collector following that should keep him afloat as long as he wants to be at this point.

My impression from Economacki's comments is that overall design is digital until enough pre-orders for a new product come in to start production (hence the renderings). There is little to no prototyping for many products - contact points/ergonomics are modeled, but a complete plane may not exist until it comes off the line. If it works in software, it is assumed that it will work in real life. They do not start production until they have a pre-determined % of the production run pre-sold and often sell out limited edition items.

http://www.opb.org/television/programs/artbeat/segment/john-economaki-tool-maker/

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the link, Kevin. I had not seen that video before. I recommend others view it.

John mentions "stripping back the design to basics", which is what I noted earlier. Another way of describing this is the focus on negative space.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kirby Krieger]

http://www.opb.org/television/programs/artbeat/segment/john-economaki-tool-maker/

Thanks for this. I echo Derek Cohen's recommendation: watch the video.

These words from John Economaki stood out to me, and I think sit well in this discussion and the space this forum creates:

"All objects should be worthy of the space they occupy. If you think of space as a treasure — something sacred — and you are going to put something in it, then it needs to be something special."

[William Adams]

“Have nothing in your home which you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful.” --- William Morris

[Pat Barry]

John mentions "stripping back the design to basics", which is what I noted earlier. Another way of describing this is the focus on negative space.
So all those extraneous and unnecessary holes in the plane are negative space! Very interesting. I still think he missed an opportunity by not making a skeleton front knob. That would fit the theme of negative space very nicely.

[Patrick Chase]

My impression from Economacki's comments is that overall design is digital until enough pre-orders for a new product come in to start production (hence the renderings). There is little to no prototyping for many products - contact points/ergonomics are modeled, but a complete plane may not exist until it comes off the line. If it works in software, it is assumed that it will work in real life.

As a [former] mechanical engineer and product designer this makes me cringe. You can design some things this way, but not something as user-interaction-intensive as a plane. IMO subjective properties like "balance" and "[perceived] center of effort" can't be evaluated from CAD or by mocking up components.

The real shame is that modern technology has brought all sorts of rapid prototyping solutions, that make it easier than ever to go from CAD to a representative article.

[William Adams]

Yeah, it would be interesting to see how the designs would be influenced by doing prototypes on a 3D printer using metal-infused filaments --- that's an interesting specialty, which I don't think has come up yet --- filaments which are designed to mimic the weight/density of various materials so as to allow handling of a prototype w/ reasonably proximate weight.

[Patrick Chase]

Yeah, it would be interesting to see how the designs would be influenced by doing prototypes on a 3D printer using metal-infused filaments --- that's an interesting specialty, which I don't think has come up yet --- filaments which are designed to mimic the weight/density of various materials so as to allow handling of a prototype w/ reasonably proximate weight.

Yep, though those have pretty crappy mechanical properties (the ones I've seen are PLA). I was thinking more along the lines of a combination of CNC milling and laser-sintered metal printing. The part costs have come down a lot, to the point where they'd make sense even at BCTW's volumes.

[george wilson]

I think that someday,when they get the metallurgy worked out,machining will be ADDITIVE (3D printing technology),not SUBTRACTIVE(cutting metal away in lathes or milling machines,or grinders). Today,cast tools are still inferior to forged. But,that can change. When it does,vast changes in manufacturing will occur.

Have you noticed the cast styrofoam texture on your car engines? That is because styrofoam like pre cast patterns are placed in the sand. When white hot metals are poured in,they are vaporized,allowing metal to fill the cavities,leaving the tell tale surface texture behind.

[William Adams]

Yeah, we used to do a journal on powdered metallurgy, back before it became mainstream — still a lot of difficulties to be worked out before that is truly workable for demanding applications such as hand tools.

It will be interesting to see how the economics of such things play out, and nice to be able to order anything, since everything which can’t be affordably done mass production can be done affordably as a one-off item.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I think that someday,when they get the metallurgy worked out,machining will be ADDITIVE (3D printing technology),not SUBTRACTIVE(cutting metal away in lathes or milling machines,or grinders). Today,cast tools are still inferior to forged. But,that can change. When it does,vast changes in manufacturing will occur.

Have you noticed the cast styrofoam texture on your car engines? That is because styrofoam like pre cast patterns are placed in the sand. When white hot metals are poured in,they are vaporized,allowing metal to fill the cavities,leaving the tell tale surface texture behind.


The shop where I teach on weekends just added a metallurgy course, and got a CNC plasma cutter. Wow- that thing cuts 1/2" steel!!! They also got a laser for engraving wood and cutting small parts from wood. The world is changing, and although the artisan is not lost- the skillset of the artisan has evolved. What I mean by that is the artisan still creates, but with different tools, knowledge sets, and methods.

[Niels Cosman]

As a [former] mechanical engineer and product designer this makes me cringe. You can design some things this way, but not something as user-interaction-intensive as a plane. IMO subjective properties like "balance" and "[perceived] center of effort" can't be evaluated from CAD or by mocking up components.

The real shame is that modern technology has brought all sorts of rapid prototyping solutions, that make it easier than ever to go from CAD to a representative article.

I am right there with you.
I believe there is some degree of rapid-prototyping for sizing and formal evaluation, but the fact that there is rarely a fully functional model ready until the entire production batch is finished seems like an invitation for failure. I am an engineer working with precision devices. I prototype and manufacture with several local machine shops and understand how expensive (time/money) the prototyping process can be. Making 1-5 parts can often cost 5-10 times the cost of making 20-50 parts and there are lead times of 4-12 weeks. I've recently invested in two rapid prototyping machines (FDM and SLS) simply because I expect can often catch silly errors or make simple modifications without having spend thousands of dollars and 1-3 months time between revisions. I still believe that there is no substitute for a pre-production fully functional prototype regardless of the cost.
It's interesting to tie this discussion to the previous discussion of tools that have been long "delayed" getting to market (i.e. Lie Nielsen Plough Plane). Good and robust design does not appear out of thin air, and getting things right the first time is virtually impossible (and is not a realistic goal).
My approach to design is similar to a model of natural history. Designs and mechanisms do not exist in a vacuum but rather they communicate in a great continuum. The best designs evolve given functional requirements and environmental pressures. There are occasional great leaps forward, but mostly the process consists of many diligent refinements in pursuit of perfection (however unattainable). The zenith of design is reached when you can look at a thing and find that any change would result in a worst product.
To redesign the wheel every time you sit down at the drawing board (or mousepad) will guarantee that your design will be fraught with the problems of an early unrefined design.

That being said we are on the cusp of major changes in methods of manufacturing joining additive/subtractive processes. For instance there are now methods of combining SLS techniques and 5 axis machining with metals like titanium to create parts that are orders of magnitude cheaper, stronger, more complex than using conventional methods. These processes are being used in the aerospace industry to rapid-prototype/manufacture parts for the next generation of space exploration. It's really exciting stuff!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The shop where I teach on weekends just added a metallurgy course, and got a CNC plasma cutter. Wow- that thing cuts 1/2" steel!!! They also got a laser for engraving wood and cutting small parts from wood. The world is changing, and although the artisan is not lost- the skillset of the artisan has evolved. What I mean by that is the artisan still creates, but with different tools, knowledge sets, and methods.

I just read my own response, and it sounds like I'm saying all the CNC stuff is a good thing. It is in some cases- and in many cases I am saddened by the loss of the art of woodworking. It's much like photography. It's great to see the image immediately appear on the screen- as a former wedding photographer, I would have loved that in the film days- but it's sad to see the art of photography being lost to the ability to manipulate anything in the computer. As I watched a laser cutter do its thing for the first time, I was impressed, elated, and also a bit saddened- all at the same time.

[Kirby Krieger]

The world is changing, and although the artisan is not lost- the skillset of the artisan has evolved. What I mean by that is the artisan still creates, but with different tools, knowledge sets, and methods.

This is oddly on-topic. John Economaki designed and built, imho, beautiful furniture until he woke up one day in a hospital and was told he couldn't be near wood dust ever again. Now he designs tools for working wood by hand, almost entirely by computer. He says, in the video linked in this thread, that he was surprised to find that he got an equal and similar pleasure from "making" a 3D model as from making an object. I find it interesting that while the skillset, in being adapted to changing circumstance, becomes different, the mindset continues mostly unchanged from the most distant reaches of our histories.

[William Adams]

Yeah, I mislike how one company marketing CNC routers terms them as "3D carvers".

[Malcolm Schweizer]

One tool of theirs I do want is the CS 12 try square. One just went for $175 on eBay. I was going to bid $155. I love the gradations (easy to read) and that it has metric and standard. I use both. It's also pretty. Nothing wrong with pretty as long as it goes hand in hand with functional. I use a try square as my main measuring tool for most projects. You can't beat the functionality, but this is where you want a really good tool because there are so many variables with moving parts.

[george wilson]

Powdered metal not yet for hand tools? What about my nice PM VIII block plane blade from LV?????

[Patrick Chase]

Powdered metal not yet for hand tools? What about my nice PM VIII block plane blade from LV?????

Indeed. I almost said exactly the same thing but bit my tongue for once.

In fairness there's a huge difference between the PM process used to form those blades and the sort of laser-sintering-based 3D printing processes discussed in this thread. I think the "not ready" comment was in re: the latter, though even there I would disagree. Rocket engine combustion chambers and turbopumps aren't exactly "friendly" applications, and yet SpaceX uses printed metal parts for both.

[george wilson]

I wouldn't know that,not being a rocket expert. I thought they were just cast. Actually,I hadn't really thought about them. Just enjoy the beautiful,symmetrical blue flame when they light off,and seeing the gimbals kicking in.

[bridger berdel]

Indeed. I almost said exactly the same thing but bit my tongue for once.

In fairness there's a huge difference between the PM process used to form those blades and the sort of laser-sintering-based 3D printing processes discussed in this thread. I think the "not ready" comment was in re: the latter, though even there I would disagree. Rocket engine combustion chambers and turbopumps aren't exactly "friendly" applications, and yet SpaceX uses printed metal parts for both.

How pricey is that process? I can think of a few items I'd like to have made. ...

[george wilson]

Must be a heluva big printer. We have a friend who is an important machinist at NASA. Years ago my wife mentioned 3D printing to him. He was incredulous. Thought she was putting him on. He had never heard about the process. I thought that was kind of bizarre. I mean,WE don't work for NASA!!

[Patrick Chase]

Probably should have been clearer: The nozzle they make with 3D printing is the one for their Super Draco thruster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDraco).

They also 3D print parts of the turbopump for the Merlin engine, used in the first and second stages of Falcon-9 (the rocket they've used for all of their recent launches).

[steven c newman]

Thread appears to be adrift. Maybe lost the rudder?

[Frederick Skelly]

Thread appears to be adrift. Maybe lost the rudder?

Yeah Steve, sorta seems that way. So I'll restart it (or cause it to close - something I seem to have a knack for :eek:)...

In summary, I think a $4000 smoothing plane isn't for a guy or gal who's gonna actually use it. I think it's for folks who collect what they feel to be art or fine things. I'd still like the chance to test drive one, just because. But I don't want/need/desire/lust for anything like this. Grandpa's MF #9 suits me just fine.

[george wilson]

My philosophy is that I buy tools to use. I make tools to use.

[mark weathersbee]

Looks amazing but no way I'd ever be able to afford one, without hitting the lotto. Does anyone actually use such a tool or does it sit on a shelf all the time?


The new SE Dual Angle Smoother (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) from Bridge City Tool Works.

Not sure I even like it.

336941

[David Tiell]

I have quite a few of the earlier BC tools, mostly squares, t-bevels, rules, and straight edges. All "basic" layout tools. I use pretty much all of them regularly, and they are quite functional and useful. Their little AS-3 Adjustable Square is one of my favorite tools. It is perfect for an apron pocket, has gradations vertically along one edge of the blade to use for a bit/blade height gage, and just feels good in my hand. The same is true for most of the other stuff I have. But at some point they got away from the simple. I still like the looks of most of their new stuff, but to me, practicality comes into question on most of it, including this plane.

[Bill Orbine]

I think my quality of work would be just the same with a decent old Stanley #4 smoother picked up for $25 at a flea market than this $4,222 whatchamacallit.

[Patrick Chase]

I think my quality of work would be just the same with a decent old Stanley #4 smoother picked up for $25 at a flea market than this $4,222 whatchamacallit.

It would probably be better with the #4, provided you know how to tune and set the cap iron. That $4K BCTW is an overgrown block plane after all (bevel up).

[Keith Winter]

The new SE Dual Angle Smoother (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/se-dual-angle-smoother-1.html?utm_source=Bridge+City+Tool+Works&utm_campaign=bef3734131-2016_SE_Dual_Angle_Smoother5_4_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8072d037d5-bef3734131-311335353) from Bridge City Tool Works.

Not sure I even like it.

336941

Practical no. But stunning yes. I wouldn't pay nearly $4k for one but if you got it as a gift wouldn't you be proud to put it up on a shelf for display? They are probably targeting gifts for retirement etc. at this price range more so than everyday use.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Practical no. But stunning yes. I wouldn't pay nearly $4k for one but if you got it as a gift wouldn't you be proud to put it up on a shelf for display? They are probably targeting gifts for retirement etc. at this price range more so than everyday use.

No. I would not display it because of the knob and tote, both of which say, "I failed in the design portion of this project." It is like if Porsche designed a beautiful car and then put square wheels on it.

I'm not hating on BC- I love the CS12 square and one day I will own one. As stated before, the scratch awl I got from them bent on the first use simply marking where I needed to drill. I did not press hard. In fact, I grabbed my all-time favorite artisan-made scratch awl and intentionally jammed it down as hard as I could to make the mark just to satisfy in my mind that the BC didn't fail because of me. The artisan one did fine.

[Patrick Chase]

No. I would not display it because of the knob and tote, both of which say, "I failed in the design portion of this project." It is like if Porsche designed a beautiful car and then put square wheels on it.

Or maybe like if Porsche put the engine in the back of their top-of-the-line car instead of the middle, where it belongs :-).

[george wilson]

My old 1963ish Marples square is a lot better made than their new ones: For many years the brass wear surface of their large square has been SCREWED to the mahogany stock. Not the best idea. On my old one,the brass face had a long dovetail milled up through its middle. Then,the brass piece was pushed up into position over the mahogany stock. Too bad they don't do that any more.

Unfortunately,my old Marples has suffered a bit: The finish on the mahogany stock has started to look a little "crystaline" and not as attractive as it was when new. If I refinish it,I'll certainly irradicate the Marples name(I REALLY LIKE the name "Marples"! Could I carefully scrape around it? Yes,but I think the difference in surfaces would surely still show,so best leave it alone. Besides,in 100 more years,it'l be worth at least $2.00 more if all original!!:)

To tell the truth anyway,I ONLY use all steel Starrett or Brown and Sharpe vintage machinist's squares now. But,I have to be careful: The 24" all solid steel squares are pretty HEAVY. Don't want to drop one on my project.

[Derek Cohen]

George, time to get a Chris Vesper square! I can recommend them. Perhaps you have not heard of him? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

You know we are friends,Derek. Even after I turned him loose in my KITCHEN!!! You know that his idea of CLEANING UP after cooking,is to leave a bowl full of water in the sink. And,never mind the rest!!:)

We did some tool trading and I have several squares of his in one of my tool boxes. But the trouble with his grads-they are ALL METRIC. It would serve him well in his trips to USA tool shows,to start making some with INCH grads!!

[Derek Cohen]

He does the same at my place, George.

Why do you need grads on a square? Anyway, Chris has brought out Imperial markings on his little double square. Just for you guys in the States. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

He does the same at my place, George.

Why do you need grads on a square? Anyway, Chris has brought out Imperial markings on his little double square. Just for you guys in the States. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have one of those. It's a beautiful tool.

I usually leave it set up with the skinny blade and use it to check mortise/hole perpendicularity etc.

[george wilson]

His little double square is what I refer to. Not that I need another square,mind you,or another double square. I have a little Starrett double square that I use at the metal lathe. When I need to cut off several bezel cups for my wife at 1/16" long,I extend 1/16" of the beam of the little square. Then,resting the stock against the end of the un cut off bezel,I can run the cutoff tool up to touch the end of the beam,take away the square,and pretty accurately cut off another 1/16" tall bezel(a little cup for holding stones.) I can maintain about .002" tolerance doing this just by feel. That is more than close enough for jewelry.

If I have one of these at each lathe,I don't have to walk to the other lathe to find it. But,It's no biggie. The inconvenience is I'll LOSE the little square and that makes it nice to have a spare.

Since Chris makes nothing but squares and marking knives,and he keeps wanting tools from me(like NOS vintage files and #30 Morse taper end mill holders),etc. I HAVE to find SOMETHING to take in trade. How many squares can the American public absorb?:)

It's funny that Chris bills himself as "The World's Best tool maker". But,he comes here to learn how to make knurls.:) And,I let him copy off of MY knurls!! Well,he's welcome. He has a long way to go,and I'm 75.